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LAXintl
Posts: 24506
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri May 29, 2020 5:22 pm

Guys, running a hub at MXP is doomed, so long as LIN remains open.

Just comparing yields on similar route pairs between LIN and MXP shows that LIN is higher - rightfully as its the more convenient and business preferred Milan airport.

AZ would be foolish to put all its eggs into a MXP hub as competitors would enjoy LIN to themselves and as local demand continues to opt to LIN flights versus trekking out to MXP.
The other option of running split hub which is what AZ did the first time again is foolish as AZ ends up competing against itself on same cities pairs from both airports and must discount MXP routes to generate the feed it needs to make a hub work.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri May 29, 2020 7:37 pm

spannacomo wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
Air Italy tried that and lost tremendous amounts of Qatari money.

air italy were overloaded with staff coming from old meridiana thanks to italian magistrates voiding previous downsizing maneuvers. Staff thought themselves as OLB centered airline, not accepting MXP, same thing that happened with old AZ staff thinking themselves as FCO based, and obtaining that thanks to governement and unions.
No chance to successfully operate in these situation, but mind you, QR wanted to continue the business but as a minority shareholder could not decide, it was the actual owner who decided to close, because he was not patient for the results to improve and could not bear the trauma of cutting ties with sardinia where he has many investments.



I remember having to argue with you about my theory that Air Italy would collapse.

That QR wanted to invest further is not true. They did say that in PR-talk to make their failure look good.
The Sardinian government offered QR to take over the majority stake and invest in Air Italy together, but QR did not show any interest.

In serata, invece, era arrivata la mossa del governatore Christian Solinas, con la conferma della disponibilità della Regione Sardegna di investire su Air Italy con il 51%, attraverso la Sfirs, ovvero la società

finanziaria regionale. "Stiamo verificando, sia dal punto di vista giuridico sia industriale, la percorribilità di questa strada", ha detto Solinas.

A stretto giro è però arrivata la frenata di Qatar Airways, socio di minoranza della compagnia, che attraverso fonti ha fatto sapere: "Non c'è più interesse a continuare ad investire in Air Italy".


https://www.unionesarda.it/articolo/eco ... 89172.html

Translation: In the evening, the Sardinian governor Christian Solinas made a move, with the confirmation of the availability of the Sardinian Region to invest into Air Italy with 51% through the SFIRS, the regional financial company. " We are verifying, both from the legal and industrial point of view, whether this road is an option" Solinas said.
However, very shortly after, Qatar Airways, the minority shareholder, has said through sources that there no longer is interest to invest in Air Italy.

The Aga Khan Foundation, the majority owner, no longer has investments in Sardinia and has sunk money into IG for many decades.



Alitalia being nationalised is a very good thing, something that I suggested.
Italy is highly dependent on the tourism sector and agriculture. The more you go South, the more this is marked.
It's thus important to have a national airline that serves public interests.
Most AZ competitors are first in to make money in the Italian market over the high season, but in the winter, they retreat so much that Italians are left with no travel options were it not for AZ operating at a loss.


The big problem of Italy is its geography and having an airport in every city.
It takes a very clever strategy to turn that into an advantage.
There are ways to make an Italian airline profitable, it's just not as simple when you don't enjoy a monopoly and have everyone and their mother operating flights into your home market.
 
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lesfalls
Posts: 3361
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri May 29, 2020 11:54 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
spannacomo wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
Air Italy tried that and lost tremendous amounts of Qatari money.

air italy were overloaded with staff coming from old meridiana thanks to italian magistrates voiding previous downsizing maneuvers. Staff thought themselves as OLB centered airline, not accepting MXP, same thing that happened with old AZ staff thinking themselves as FCO based, and obtaining that thanks to governement and unions.
No chance to successfully operate in these situation, but mind you, QR wanted to continue the business but as a minority shareholder could not decide, it was the actual owner who decided to close, because he was not patient for the results to improve and could not bear the trauma of cutting ties with sardinia where he has many investments.



I remember having to argue with you about my theory that Air Italy would collapse.

That QR wanted to invest further is not true. They did say that in PR-talk to make their failure look good.
The Sardinian government offered QR to take over the majority stake and invest in Air Italy together, but QR did not show any interest.

In serata, invece, era arrivata la mossa del governatore Christian Solinas, con la conferma della disponibilità della Regione Sardegna di investire su Air Italy con il 51%, attraverso la Sfirs, ovvero la società

finanziaria regionale. "Stiamo verificando, sia dal punto di vista giuridico sia industriale, la percorribilità di questa strada", ha detto Solinas.

A stretto giro è però arrivata la frenata di Qatar Airways, socio di minoranza della compagnia, che attraverso fonti ha fatto sapere: "Non c'è più interesse a continuare ad investire in Air Italy".


https://www.unionesarda.it/articolo/eco ... 89172.html

Translation: In the evening, the Sardinian governor Christian Solinas made a move, with the confirmation of the availability of the Sardinian Region to invest into Air Italy with 51% through the SFIRS, the regional financial company. " We are verifying, both from the legal and industrial point of view, whether this road is an option" Solinas said.
However, very shortly after, Qatar Airways, the minority shareholder, has said through sources that there no longer is interest to invest in Air Italy.

The Aga Khan Foundation, the majority owner, no longer has investments in Sardinia and has sunk money into IG for many decades.



Alitalia being nationalised is a very good thing, something that I suggested.
Italy is highly dependent on the tourism sector and agriculture. The more you go South, the more this is marked.
It's thus important to have a national airline that serves public interests.
Most AZ competitors are first in to make money in the Italian market over the high season, but in the winter, they retreat so much that Italians are left with no travel options were it not for AZ operating at a loss.


The big problem of Italy is its geography and having an airport in every city.
It takes a very clever strategy to turn that into an advantage.
There are ways to make an Italian airline profitable, it's just not as simple when you don't enjoy a monopoly and have everyone and their mother operating flights into your home market.


Sorry but are you really trying to bring up that AZ needs a monopoly on the market as a solution to it being profitable? This is quite inconceivable and displays the notion of a historic Italy where AZ very much ruled the skies and still shows how Italians think very much of the past rather than adapting to the future. If having competition from LCCs being the problem then look at airlines such as IB and A3 which do very much make a profit in Southern Europe. Airlines have demonstrated too how rich the Italian market truly is as airlines such as the intorduction of LH Italia (Failed due to MXP base), Air Italy (funding as you said) and Air Dolomiti (the sole success) to serve the Italian market from Germany which shows how important the Italian clients are for them. In addition FR and EZY have very big bases at BGY/MXP displaying that Italian carriers just aren't up for the job to actually make a profit out of what there is (Fly Ernest was the sole exception but due to the ENAC taking away their operating license of course Italy again is very scarce when it comes to good airlines other then the much loved Neos). Countries such as Spain and Greece have shown that you don't need to have a national carrier constantly losing money but at the same time bring in extra tourism and business into the country. As a young italian I cannot stand how older Italians wish to not change and wish to still control the country displaying why us young people leave the country. To continue to prove my point Wizz Airs opening of a base at MXP yesterday shows the amount of demand and how rich the Italian market could be with an airline such as AZ operating on a different system. Stop denying that there are other excuses (the typical Italian protocal in government and opinion) and actually do something!!

Saluti,
Lesfalls
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
spannacomo
Posts: 118
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat May 30, 2020 6:37 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:


I remember having to argue with you about my theory that Air Italy would collapse.


I remember too, you are the one advocating a OLB intercontinental hub, how is the project going?

That QR wanted to invest further is not true. They did say that in PR-talk to make their failure look good.
The Sardinian government offered QR to take over the majority stake and invest in Air Italy together, but QR did not show any interest.

In serata, invece, era arrivata la mossa del governatore Christian Solinas, con la conferma della disponibilità della Regione Sardegna di investire su Air Italy con il 51%, attraverso la Sfirs, ovvero la società

finanziaria regionale. "Stiamo verificando, sia dal punto di vista giuridico sia industriale, la percorribilità di questa strada", ha detto Solinas.

A stretto giro è però arrivata la frenata di Qatar Airways, socio di minoranza della compagnia, che attraverso fonti ha fatto sapere: "Non c'è più interesse a continuare ad investire in Air Italy".


https://www.unionesarda.it/articolo/eco ... 89172.html

Translation: In the evening, the Sardinian governor Christian Solinas made a move, with the confirmation of the availability of the Sardinian Region to invest into Air Italy with 51% through the SFIRS, the regional financial company. " We are verifying, both from the legal and industrial point of view, whether this road is an option" Solinas said.
However, very shortly after, Qatar Airways, the minority shareholder, has said through sources that there no longer is interest to invest in Air Italy.

The Aga Khan Foundation, the majority owner, no longer has investments in Sardinia and has sunk money into IG for many decades.

According to the article QR was offered to continue to invest in a OLB based airline, no wonder they rejected the offer. Truth is that IG owner wanted to stay in OLB while QR wanted to grow MXP hub, this tug war resulted in a broken rope.
Alitalia being nationalised is a very good thing, something that I suggested.
Italy is highly dependent on the tourism sector and agriculture. The more you go South, the more this is marked.
It's thus important to have a national airline that serves public interests.
Most AZ competitors are first in to make money in the Italian market over the high season, but in the winter, they retreat so much that Italians are left with no travel options were it not for AZ operating at a loss.


The big problem of Italy is its geography and having an airport in every city.
It takes a very clever strategy to turn that into an advantage.
There are ways to make an Italian airline profitable, it's just not as simple when you don't enjoy a monopoly and have everyone and their mother operating flights into your home market.

AZ only commands 8% of international traffic of Italy and EU rules will make sure it will shrink further despite nazionalization.
 
hinckley
Posts: 603
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat May 30, 2020 6:47 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Italy is highly dependent on the tourism sector and agriculture. The more you go South, the more this is marked.
It's thus important to have a national airline that serves public interests.

Could you explain the connectivity between these two statements? Dependence on tourism and agriculture = Importance for a national airline. Huh? Why?

I love how you've put words together to form sentences that in your mind, somehow constitute fact. Silly stuff.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat May 30, 2020 3:35 pm

hinckley wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Italy is highly dependent on the tourism sector and agriculture. The more you go South, the more this is marked.
It's thus important to have a national airline that serves public interests.

Could you explain the connectivity between these two statements? Dependence on tourism and agriculture = Importance for a national airline. Huh? Why?

I love how you've put words together to form sentences that in your mind, somehow constitute fact. Silly stuff.


FR and U2 are quite capable of getting tourists in and out of Italy as are DL, AA EK. Plenty of connections via LH, BA, AF and their hubs to secondary cities in Italy. Wasn't it actually FR that picked up a lot of domesticcinnections and regional routes when AZ entrenched to Milan and Rome. Despite what any of us think, Italians don't mind flying FR or U2 any more than they mind flying AZ.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4647
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:48 pm

Alitalia.. the gift that keeps on giving


Alitalia asked to rethink relaunch plan

The Europrean Commission says an alternative plan is needed.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/br ... unch-plan/
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
airhansa
Posts: 380
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:23 pm

Generally, Europe simply has too many national airline brands (not groups) and these need to be consolidated. AZ is one of those brands that needs to go.

I would personally like to see the entire LH group refocused under the LH and EW banners. AZ is far less worthy than many of the airlines in the LH group. It's best for the Italian market to be mainly served by low cost airlines and occasional full service airlines from overseas. Its railway infrastructure seems to be top notch anyway.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4647
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:16 pm

More controversy regarding the relaunch of Alitalia.

There are two articles, 198 and 203, included in the huge relaunch decree of the Conte government. Apparently they are used to save Alitalia and support air transport but in reality they risk running away all low cost airlines from our country. The two "indicted" articles oblige carriers to apply to all employees employed in Italy the same contractual conditions as the former flag carrier under penalty of forfeiture of Italian licenses and a ban on access to aid for the Covid emergency. In theory, a way to protect workers and avoid a sort of "incorrect competition" of low cost airlines towards Alitalia but which could turn into a boomerang for the tourism sector that tries to start again and for Sicily in the concrete risk of remaining almost isolated and seeing it rise dramatically,more than what is happening these days, the cost of airline tickets.


Surely a deal breaker for the LCCs operating in Italy and a killer for competition.

https://palermo.repubblica.it/politica/ ... /?ref=fbpr
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 799
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:51 pm

I suspect somebody like MOL might want to test this in front of an EU court instead of an Italian court
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 799
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:38 pm

ACL who manage slots at most of London's airports have released their winter 2020/21 report. Airlines have to request slots in advance, and ACL try to juggle the requests from different airlines against what can be given out.

Alitalia normally flies from London Heathrow 2x daily to Milan Linate and 3x daily to Rome FCO
Alitalia request slots for 7x departures per day from London Gatwick. They were actually granted slots for just 5x departures per week at Gatwick

However, one wonders if Alitalia were planning on selling or leasing out their Heathrow slots to another airline and moving their London flights completely from Heathrow to Gatwick. It's quite common for financially struggling airlines who hold Heathrow slots to try to sell them - but the airlines which consider this are usually in such a bad financial shape that they cease all flights within a few years anyway
 
Fliplot
Posts: 178
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:29 pm

I remember when AZ had 6 or 7 daily flights on LHR/FCO and 5 daily on LHR/MXP. Times have changed! What I also remember is AZ being only okay on service and food!
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 799
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:32 pm

Forgot to add... Alitalia sold all their Heathrow slots to Etihad and then leased them back. Any monetary gain from selling or leasing the Heathrow slots would go to Etihad not Alitalia.
Alitalia also fly 6x weekdays and 3x weekends from London City to Milan LIN

Alitalia's network at FCO doesn't give a lot of connecting destination for those travelling to/from London. The USA and Mexico are a significant backtrack, leaving just Argentina, Brazil, Japan, Tunisia, Egypt and Israel. I imagine that the LHR-FCO traffic on Alitalia is predominantly O&D pax
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:45 pm

The only way to position AZ for success (and profitability) is to fire every single one of their employees and replace them (actually, outsourcing them would be even better) and by outsourcing that would mean handing over the entire operation from A to Z (no pun intended) to one of the big European airline groupings, preferably LH. This will of course never happen, and Italy's taxpayers (and bond holders) will remain holding the bag. Yes, it's a symbol of Italy but come on. It has turned a profit, what once, since 1946?
 
NLDru
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:07 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
It has turned a profit, what once, since 1946?


Italy also has 67 different governments since 1946. Making decisions in Italy is difficult, it's in their DNA.

That is why the merger with KLM also failed in 2000. KLM only wanted to invest in Milan as the only hub in Italy, because Northern Italy is richer. However, the Italians also wanted invest in Rome as a 2nd hub and also did not want to privatize Alitalia at the time. In the end, it turned out that the different work cultures could not be combined. Very unfortunate, because KLM was able to serve northern Europe and Alitalia southern Europe.
 
Blerg
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Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:26 am

In the end I think nothing will change, Alitalia will keep on recording losses and all governments will keep on looking for solutions while writing cheques.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:52 pm

Alitalia appointed Fabio Lazzerini, who is currently the Chief Business Officer, as the new CEO, while Francesco Caio former head of Italian post service becomes Chairman.

https://www.startmag.it/smartcity/fabio ... italia-pd/
mercure f-wtcc
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:36 pm

AZ has a new legal name - Alitalia TAI (Trasporto Aereo Italiano)
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
danipawa
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:15 am

and the fleet plan ? A321 GOING ?
 
Blerg
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:00 am

Are they going to keep the sole B77W?
 
dcajet
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:58 pm

Blerg wrote:
Are they going to keep the sole B77W?


Back in February they announced they were ditching it, together with 2 A330-200s and the SCL and ICN routes. And that was before COVID...
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
bennett123
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:22 pm

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ei-wla

Clearly that did not happen.

More lives than a cat.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:12 pm

omochiwokudasai wrote:
hinckley wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
As Europe's fourth largest economy and a major exporter, Italy needs an airline and a global one, but the state coffers can't be pilfered forever.

Why?

AZ has been in existence for almost 75 years and made an annual operating profit in only one year during all that time. What is there to suggest that the next 75 years will be any different?


I am Italian and quite tired to pay this disaster of airline with my taxes.
As you just mentioned in your last post, in the entire Alitalia history the airline saw the light just once: when in 1998 AZ CEO Domenico Cempella reported only one year of profit since its foundation in 1946. From 1999 tu 2008 Alitalia was able to reach €3.7 billion net losses.
Politicians in Italy tend to fight about literally everything but there's only one topic that everyone agrees on: helping Alitalia by all means. Why? Too many "good" families involved and too many potential votes at stake.
In 45 year the Italian gov has wasted €12.6 billion , with the same amount of money it could have bought:
1) AFKLM (€1.87)
2) Norwegian (€0.1)
3) Lufthansa (€4.33)
4) SAS (€0.29)
5 Finnair (€0.45)
6) Turkish Airlines (€1.65)
TOTAL = €8,69 billion

Another myth to dispel, overused a lot by politicians and corrupted journalists (it's incredible how media in Italy do not talk about the AZ situation. I have read more about this matter here where I live [Spain] than in the Italian newspapers), is that "AZ is a strategic airline for the entire country". It is not. Absolutely not.
According to ENAC (the Italian National Civil Aviation Authority, so I am not making anything up. You can go check all the data on ENAC's website or I can share some graphs with you), the international market share of the aviation in Italy is divided as follows:
1) Ryanair 22,2%
2) Easyjet 12,6%
3) IAG Group 9,5%
4) Lufhtansa 8,7%
5) Alitalia 8,1%
And I could go on for a long time but I think these info are enough for the time being.

First, thank you for the market share numbers.



I'm not certain the Italian taxpayer can afford in a Covid19 world to support Alitalia.

The thought that the subsidies to Alitalia could buy six competitors is sobering.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4647
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:21 pm

bennett123 wrote:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ei-wla

Clearly that did not happen.

More lives than a cat.


It's AZ, after all..

But to be fair, back when they announced the sole 77W's retirement, they said it'd be "later in the year".
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
IADFCO
Posts: 179
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:51 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I'm not certain the Italian taxpayer can afford in a Covid19 world to support Alitalia.

The thought that the subsidies to Alitalia could buy six competitors is sobering.

Lightsaber


In my opinion the Covid19 experience has shown how important it is to have a national airline. You cannot let the O'Leary of the world dictate what cities in your country will have a minimum of airline service during emergencies, or what skeleton international network will remain available.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:32 pm

IADFCO - Your question seems to be more about whether airlines should exist solely as companies to make a profit... or whether they have public service obligations
 
YIMBY
Posts: 724
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:32 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:04 pm

IADFCO wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I'm not certain the Italian taxpayer can afford in a Covid19 world to support Alitalia.

The thought that the subsidies to Alitalia could buy six competitors is sobering.

Lightsaber


In my opinion the Covid19 experience has shown how important it is to have a national airline. You cannot let the O'Leary of the world dictate what cities in your country will have a minimum of airline service during emergencies, or what skeleton international network will remain available.


Not so.

A government with deep pockets can pay any airline, whether national or foreign, to keep the crucial parts of network running. A government should never dictate an airline, whether owning it or not, to keep running unprofitable routes at its own cost and risk, just to maintain the prestige of the country.

Note that Covid-19 is not such an emergency that they really need national air transport to save the country. In case of repatriation flights or freight flights for medical stuff, there are plenties of aircraft available all around the world to do the task, and there is no need for the airlines to be national.
 
AMP44
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:01 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:17 pm

dcajet wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ei-wla

Clearly that did not happen.

More lives than a cat.


It's AZ, after all..

But to be fair, back when they announced the sole 77W's retirement, they said it'd be "later in the year".


They used the 77W for flying PPE and other medical equipment into Italy since start of COVID. They also have used the 77W in a lot of their marketing and social media content recently.
 
AZa346
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:58 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:21 am

In the meantime they sell flights then later get cancelled, what a joke of an airline. If they upset their whole customer base, there is no chance they will ever strive
 
dcajet
Posts: 4647
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:06 pm

AZa346 wrote:
In the meantime they sell flights then later get cancelled, what a joke of an airline. If they upset their whole customer base, there is no chance they will ever strive


I would not pin that on AZ alone. Most airlines are consolidating and tweaking schedules up to the last minute in an effort to match capacity to demand during this crisis - something that is not going away in the immediate future, I'm afraid.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:01 pm

AZ moved nearly all its Milan service to LIN, leaving mere 2x daily FCO, a Cagliari service and future JFK and NRT longhaul routes at MXP.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... -to-linate
mercure f-wtcc

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