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ricardofg
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:09 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:13 pm

They really should bury the name Alitalia
Rebrand completely. ITA should be a fresh new start. Same old name, same old story
 
IADFCO
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:31 pm

ricardofg wrote:
They really should bury the name Alitalia
Rebrand completely. ITA should be a fresh new start. Same old name, same old story


I completely disagree. They should preserve the name and the external image and focus on better service instead.
 
aviator2000
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 11:19 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:03 pm

IADFCO wrote:
ricardofg wrote:
They really should bury the name Alitalia
Rebrand completely. ITA should be a fresh new start. Same old name, same old story


I completely disagree. They should preserve the name and the external image and focus on better service instead.

With the bad image they've currently got in the market, I do think a new name and brand would be positive for the airline.
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 971
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:22 pm

Creating a new brand in multiple countries and ensuring its widespread recognition is VERY expensive and takes a LOT of time. Outside the aviation industry, is Alitalia's brand really that bad ? Ryanair may have a dubious image, but until Covid, they didn't need to worry too much about what avgeeks thought of them...
 
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eta unknown
Posts: 2877
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:18 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Creating a new brand in multiple countries and ensuring its widespread recognition is VERY expensive and takes a LOT of time. Outside the aviation industry, is Alitalia's brand really that bad ?

Short answer: undeniably yes, it's that bad... even out of aviation industry Italians think it's bad.
 
vahancrazy
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:54 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:06 pm

Alitalia is the representation of everything bad in Italian society!
 
hloutweg
Posts: 167
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:57 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:44 pm

Alitalia, playing soon at Teatro alla Scala di Milano
In Varietate Concordia
 
IrishLessor
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:44 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:47 pm

So ITA is going to be the new Alitalia. A fresh start, a new beginning. However, couple of questions:
- Will they have to TUPE Alitalia staff to ITA, surely it has obligations in this regard under EU law?
- What will change if the government is in charge, governments don't have a good track record with running airlines.

My thoughts :
- ITA is to be full service. However, I think this target should be value carrier and like Aer Lingus build a future business around key long haul markets with strong SH feed through one or two key hubs, in AZ case FCO and MXP.
- short-haul is challenging for all legacy carriers especially in the face of LCCs, that's not going to change. However reduced costs and strong KPIs for punctuality, good schedule for the business traveller and great service in a value carrier style will deliver could a premium fare above lcc and that coupled with the feef for long hual could make a short haul operation work.
- MXP has to be the airport for Milan, this underpins the Long haul business. Operate selected flights from LIN at frequency on a case by case basis eg LCY and other business orientated routes.

Clearly delivering a cost base at par with other airlines is necessary, ie other value carriers... I'm not convinced with the current limited information that ITA is just a case of rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.
 
dynamo12
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:07 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:07 pm

IADFCO wrote:

In my opinion the Covid19 experience has shown how important it is to have a national airline. You cannot let the O'Leary of the world dictate what cities in your country will have a minimum of airline service during emergencies, or what skeleton international network will remain available.


If you don't think O'Leary would happily take money to deliver whatever essential air service you want (far more cheaply then a full service Alitalia flying empty) then I don't know what to say.

Many countries already do this successfully with routes no one would otherwise service (EAS in the states?)
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1363
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:45 pm

More than the cost base, or the brand name, they need a well-defined strategy.

Are they going to live off Italy being a leisure destination?
Are they going to focus on business routes?
Are they going to focus on long haul demand?
Are they going to focus on building a domestic network?
Are they going to be a network carrier with a single hub and focus cities or a free-floating carrier that meets the demand where it is?

An airline can be a combination of the above, but they need a strong main backbone that works.
Not a bit of everything that results in nothing.

I doubt that they'll find the right strategy.

I think that there is only one strategy that can make AZ profitable and a thriving airline but I doubt that they or anyone here would understand it even if I explained it 2000 times, so I'm not even going to try.
Many did not understand when I said that Air Italy should stop their MXP adventure and revert to OLB and progressively build a hub there. If you take it at face value, you don t see the merits of course, but they did go bust, didn't they? Apparently the losses were staggering, mid-way 9 digits once they started expanding in MXP.
There is a reason why Giuseppe Gentile wants to launch his newco out of OLB and more broadly Sardinia but I'm not sure that he understands the long haul part of that strategy.

The boring and inefficient point A to point B to point A way of operating does not work for Italy.
 
AMP44
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:01 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:59 pm

Trying to rebrand the airline will be more expensive (not only financially) to the airline than keeping the Alitalia brand. Several airlines have been able to turn themselves around without having to ditch their legacy brand name.

Outside the avgeek community, even with the management disaster that Alitalia is, the airline is still seen as a beacon of Italian quality in the air. They have been using that "Made in Italy" way of service for a while and they keep true to it. I dare say that Alitalia in long haul business is superior to other large European airlines. Hopefully they find a way of keeping the quality of their product going forward.
 
IrishLessor
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:44 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:09 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
More than the cost base, or the brand name, they need a well-defined strategy.

Are they going to live off Italy being a leisure destination?
Are they going to focus on business routes?
Are they going to focus on long haul demand?
Are they going to focus on building a domestic network?
Are they going to be a network carrier with a single hub and focus cities or a free-floating carrier that meets the demand where it is?

An airline can be a combination of the above, but they need a strong main backbone that works.
Not a bit of everything that results in nothing.

I doubt that they'll find the right strategy.

I think that there is only one strategy that can make AZ profitable and a thriving airline but I doubt that they or anyone here would understand it even if I explained it 2000 times, so I'm not even going to try.
Many did not understand when I said that Air Italy should stop their MXP adventure and revert to OLB and progressively build a hub there. If you take it at face value, you don t see the merits of course, but they did go bust, didn't they? Apparently the losses were staggering, mid-way 9 digits once they started expanding in MXP.
There is a reason why Giuseppe Gentile wants to launch his newco out of OLB and more broadly Sardinia but I'm not sure that he understands the long haul part of that strategy.

The boring and inefficient point A to point B to point A way of operating does not work for Italy.


Naturally, and the point is making is a strategic one.
Become a carrier, I cited Aer Lingus as a bench mark to work towards. Making long haul the priority, supporting an SH market. Short schedules to feed long haul and also key business sector. All of this has to be underpinned by an underlying by a relevant cost base.

There is a huge amount of discussuon about what they shouldn't do and what they get wrong, that's clear but very little strong suggestions as far as I can see...
 
IADFCO
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:31 am

dynamo12 wrote:
IADFCO wrote:

In my opinion the Covid19 experience has shown how important it is to have a national airline. You cannot let the O'Leary of the world dictate what cities in your country will have a minimum of airline service during emergencies, or what skeleton international network will remain available.


If you don't think O'Leary would happily take money to deliver whatever essential air service you want (far more cheaply then a full service Alitalia flying empty) then I don't know what to say.

Many countries already do this successfully with routes no one would otherwise service (EAS in the states?)


You cannot be dependent for strategic national priorities on what side of the bed someone like MOL wakes up. You may well decide that this is not a national priority, but that's another story.
 
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Phosphorus
Posts: 1060
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:06 pm

bennett123 wrote:
https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Alitalia.htm

With an average age of 14.1 years and nothing new on order, it seems likely that they will continue to shrink.

The A321 in particular being progressively scrapped.


upthread, many moons (maybe even years?) ago, this was discussed as a possible "Comair scenario" for Alitalia: the fleet progressively ages, the government allows itself to be milked for cash to keep the lights on at Alitalia, but refuses to finance aircraft purchase.

This way, the government of the day avoids taking excessive flak from entrenched interests at Alitalia for "being heartless destroyers of livelihoods" (because lights are on, bills and wages are paid). And the can is kicked down the road.
On the other hand, the government of the day avoids looking like profligate idiots, who buy shiny new toys for an airline, that cannot get its act together. This way, they exercise restraint and look serious to more fiscally conservative (or otherwise fed up) electorate.

Give it a few more years, and the airline will begin to naturally expire -- planes will be progressively retired, flight crews on expensive contracts will be progressively retired. Then, the government of the day (a few governments from now) will have a choice what to do with smaller Alitalia, with some decades of consistent losses.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
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readytotaxi
Posts: 7534
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:18 pm

The Brand name/worth is only as good as your last experience of it, you tell your friends.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 24829
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:39 pm

ITA – Italia Trasporto Aereo will pay EUR €220 million to acquire the assets of Alitalia deemed crucial for the new operation, including branding, MilleMiglia loyalty program, and aiport slots.

https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziend ... 1f26.shtml
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
bennett123
Posts: 10110
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:18 pm

I notice that is a Public Company.

CEO Fabio Maria Lazzerini ex CCO AZ
President Francesco Caio Chairman of Saipem, an oil and gas services company

An interesting pairing.
 
factsonly
Posts: 2998
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 04, 2020 3:21 pm

What is AZ's B773 EI-WLA doing at Eindhoven?

- 04 Nov 2020 EIN - FCO AZ9470 B773 EI-WLA
- 04 Nov 2020 FCO - EIN AZ9470 B773 EI-WLA

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ei-wla
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3252
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:02 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
The Brand name/worth is only as good as your last experience of it, you tell your friends.


That is very true, friends flew with them last year in J and raved about how good they were, this caused others to book with them. We were planning a trip to Florence flying into Rome in January taking Alitalia, those plans have now been shelved of course.

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