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mercure1
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:55 pm

Blerg wrote:
Makes you wonder if it would cost them less to have tried to save MXP than to have completely cut and suffered the consequences because of it.


AZ building a hub at MXP is futile when the key domestic and European routes by competitors are flown from the in city LIN for which customers have a preference for.

It simply repeats the failures of the past where AZ had to discount MXP flights to compete against LIN.
 
Blerg
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:38 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Makes you wonder if it would cost them less to have tried to save MXP than to have completely cut and suffered the consequences because of it.


AZ building a hub at MXP is futile when the key domestic and European routes by competitors are flown from the in city LIN for which customers have a preference for.

It simply repeats the failures of the past where AZ had to discount MXP flights to compete against LIN.


Which means that a great emphasis should have been put on building the transfer business. After all, looking at the state of Alitalia today, we can safely assume MXP hub was not the reason for their continuous troubles.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:49 pm

Blerg wrote:
Which means that a great emphasis should have been put on building the transfer business. After all, looking at the state of Alitalia today, we can safely assume MXP hub was not the reason for their continuous troubles.


I think you are missing the entire business problem..

Connection traffic by its nature is lower-yielding as there are tons of connection options for customers to chose from. Profit is often on the local O&D, and in the case of Milan, that money prefers to use LIN versus more more distant MXP.

AZ was double handicapped with MXP hub, a combination of lower yield connections, and having to discount to help capture local O&D. Look at AZ historic schedule. They would have to use high seat km cost smaller E170 at MXP side by side against AZ A320 operating from LIN.

MXP and the Milan split airport set-up was certainly a big part of the carriers network-driven losses.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:55 pm

Alitalia had to sustain a costly duplicate operation in Milan.

They had to duplicate many domestic and European capital routes from MXP for the sole benefit for connections, while its primary domestic and European capital customers selected to fly from LIN.
 
miaintl
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:59 pm

https://www.msn.com/it-it/money/storie- ... r-BB1c31Ox

According to this article Alitalia is retaining all its US routes and keeping 9 long haul planes instead of just 6.
 
spannacomo
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:36 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Which means that a great emphasis should have been put on building the transfer business. After all, looking at the state of Alitalia today, we can safely assume MXP hub was not the reason for their continuous troubles.


I think you are missing the entire business problem..

Connection traffic by its nature is lower-yielding as there are tons of connection options for customers to chose from. Profit is often on the local O&D, and in the case of Milan, that money prefers to use LIN versus more more distant MXP.
....

And you are missing that the only O&D you can have from LIN is to EU destinations, in competition with the LCCs, while money is made on extraEU O&D that is only available from MXP.
From LIN you are forced to connect, which means, according to you, lower-yield traffic.
Come on, Alitalia are the king of LIN with >70% of slots, yet they lose tons of euros, how can you think you can make money from LIN?
 
spannacomo
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:53 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Alitalia had to sustain a costly duplicate operation in Milan.

They had to duplicate many domestic and European capital routes from MXP for the sole benefit for connections, while its primary domestic and European capital customers selected to fly from LIN.

AZ left MXP 12 years ago yet you are saying the same nonsense showing you don't understand why AZ never made a profit in this long period. It's like these 12 years passed without a trace for some people.
 
oldJoe
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:11 pm

spannacomo wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Alitalia had to sustain a costly duplicate operation in Milan.

They had to duplicate many domestic and European capital routes from MXP for the sole benefit for connections, while its primary domestic and European capital customers selected to fly from LIN.

AZ left MXP 12 years ago yet you are saying the same nonsense showing you don't understand why AZ never made a profit in this long period. It's like these 12 years passed without a trace for some people.


AZ simply left MXP or forced out by competetion ? The simple answer is they can`t compete at this airport !
 
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Irehdna
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:13 am

I’m surprised MEX and ICN were cut. Major global cities and ST hubs.
 
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Irehdna
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:15 am

Also any chance hypothetically A321XLR will allow MIA/ORD/JFK-LIN nonstop?
 
hoons90
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:39 am

Irehdna wrote:
I’m surprised MEX and ICN were cut. Major global cities and ST hubs.


From what I understand, AZ loads at ICN were hovering around the low-to-mid 70s(%) off-peak and low 80s(%) during peak season, and the flight was never daily. Not exactly a stellar performer. Although traffic between Korea and Italy (and v.v.) is quite large, the point of sale is also heavily skewed towards the Korean side, which means that KE and OZ have an advantage in that market.
Furthermore, the ICN-FCO flight arrived at FCO too late to facilitate any meaningful connections.
 
Blerg
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:08 am

oldJoe wrote:
spannacomo wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Alitalia had to sustain a costly duplicate operation in Milan.

They had to duplicate many domestic and European capital routes from MXP for the sole benefit for connections, while its primary domestic and European capital customers selected to fly from LIN.

AZ left MXP 12 years ago yet you are saying the same nonsense showing you don't understand why AZ never made a profit in this long period. It's like these 12 years passed without a trace for some people.


AZ simply left MXP or forced out by competetion ? The simple answer is they can`t compete at this airport !


If one is to follow that logic then they can't compete at LIN or FCO since they are still not generating enough cash at those airports to cover their expenses. Maybe it's time to ditch FCO in favor of CIA?

On a more serious note, we do not know if they would have kept on losing money in MXP if they fixed their costs and got a leaner cost structure. They failed in MXP not because of the market but rather because they were and still are a mess.
 
spannacomo
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:25 am

oldJoe wrote:
spannacomo wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Alitalia had to sustain a costly duplicate operation in Milan.

They had to duplicate many domestic and European capital routes from MXP for the sole benefit for connections, while its primary domestic and European capital customers selected to fly from LIN.

AZ left MXP 12 years ago yet you are saying the same nonsense showing you don't understand why AZ never made a profit in this long period. It's like these 12 years passed without a trace for some people.


AZ simply left MXP or forced out by competetion ? The simple answer is they can`t compete at this airport !

where is the evidence of that?
It was a political decision to leave MXP in order to keep jobs in FCO and following the wrong idea that LIN is the airport where to be in milan. This strategy only produced heavy losses, and as a consequence the company is shrinking to irrelevance levels. When they had a double hub in MXP + FCO back in 2007 the company had 180+ frames, now after 4 new companies they have 50+ frames. IMHO if they continue with FCO + LIN strategy they will further shrink until nothing is left.
 
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Irehdna
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:52 pm

hoons90 wrote:
Irehdna wrote:
I’m surprised MEX and ICN were cut. Major global cities and ST hubs.


From what I understand, AZ loads at ICN were hovering around the low-to-mid 70s(%) off-peak and low 80s(%) during peak season, and the flight was never daily. Not exactly a stellar performer. Although traffic between Korea and Italy (and v.v.) is quite large, the point of sale is also heavily skewed towards the Korean side, which means that KE and OZ have an advantage in that market.
Furthermore, the ICN-FCO flight arrived at FCO too late to facilitate any meaningful connections.


I’m still surprised about MEX. I wouldn’t be surprised if AM starts MEX-FCO on the 789 to fill the void.
 
dcajet
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:04 am

Irehdna wrote:

I’m still surprised about MEX. I wouldn’t be surprised if AM starts MEX-FCO on the 789 to fill the void.


MEX may well be a major global city and a ST hub, but has few ties to Italy . The "new" Alitalia seems to be going for cities that are ethnically and/or economically highly connected to Italy (the exception being LAX).

Incidentally, after a hiatus of almost 9 months, Alitalia is returning to Buenos Aires this evening, first flight is already on its way to EZE.
 
runway23
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:38 am

oldJoe wrote:
spannacomo wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Alitalia had to sustain a costly duplicate operation in Milan.

They had to duplicate many domestic and European capital routes from MXP for the sole benefit for connections, while its primary domestic and European capital customers selected to fly from LIN.

AZ left MXP 12 years ago yet you are saying the same nonsense showing you don't understand why AZ never made a profit in this long period. It's like these 12 years passed without a trace for some people.


AZ simply left MXP or forced out by competetion ? The simple answer is they can`t compete at this airport !


You have to remember that back then easyJet wasn't even flying to MXP, neither was Ryanair or Wizz. MXP was essentially a ghost town other than during AZ's banks. AZ had very little competition at MXP. Lufthansa gave it a go once AZ pulled out, but even they were unable to make MXP work.

The result was also AZ having a triple operation to some airports from FCO, LIN and MXP. It was hardly efficient and it was actually quite common to see double connections proposed because the timings were poor. Essentially, whilst AZ needed to be present in Milan for long-haul flights, the short-haul situation/split meant MXP could never be a successful hub. Bolstering the hub in FCO was pretty much the only realistic option for AZ back then.

Also important to remember that AZ was chasing low yield out of MXP with a lot of high CASM ATRs, 145s and 170s - it was hardly the efficient set up. The product itself was also poor (the Schengen lounge resembled an Autogrill on the Autrostrada and was always overflowing with people. Not to mention a poor onboard product, surly flight attendants). Alitalia also had a very poor reputation both in Italy and in Europe which meant that some people purposely avoided flying the airline.
 
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janders
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:56 am

As reminder, if posting images, kindly provide link to the source.
 
dcajet
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:25 am

Some slides of the new Alitalia presentation to the Italian Parliament on Friday have showed up on social media. It appears that there will be a few more planes in the long haul fleet (9 v 6) and 3 more destinations than previously mentioned on the Italian media (BOS, IAD & MIA in addition to EZE,GRU, HND, JFK & LAX). Interesting as well is the short & medium haul network ex Linate.

https://twitter.com/SinatrAle/status/13 ... 1723414528

Image
Image
Image
Image
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:57 am

So 83 new gen planes in the next 4 years, a minimum of 17 of which will be widbodies.

Sad to see ICN and MEX still don't make the cut. They are talking about getting support from a european partner from 2022, that plus the number of star destinations for 2022 onwards makes me wonder if something is still going on behind the scenes with LH.

Purely speculation of course.
 
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FLJ
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:48 am

Is it already known if they will keep the Alitalia name with the current brand (introduced in 2015), or can we expect a rebrand with the ITA name (as we can see in the presentation above)?
 
dcajet
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:39 am

FLJ wrote:
Is it already known if they will keep the Alitalia name with the current brand (introduced in 2015), or can we expect a rebrand with the ITA name (as we can see in the presentation above)?


The brand won't change, it remains Alitalia. ITA Italia Transporti Aereo is the legal name of state owned holding. So it will be ITA dba Alitalia
 
Capricorn
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:16 pm

As I don't speak Italian, AZ eventually plans to fly to HND & NRT from FCO? If there is that much demand surely NH or JL would jump in the water as well. If one was served from MXP or another airport I can see that work, but is there that much demand to make FCO-TYO double daily year round workable especially given the limited connectability of the new AZ. Or would the additional flight to NRT be only seasonal?

(Thank you for sharing these interesting slides btw)
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:15 pm

Capricorn wrote:
As I don't speak Italian, AZ eventually plans to fly to HND & NRT from FCO? If there is that much demand surely NH or JL would jump in the water as well. If one was served from MXP or another airport I can see that work, but is there that much demand to make FCO-TYO double daily year round workable especially given the limited connectability of the new AZ. Or would the additional flight to NRT be only seasonal?

(Thank you for sharing these interesting slides btw)


AZ plans to stay until FCO - HND moments and then resume FCO - NRT in 2023 possibly between Italy and Japan there is a strong O&D demand, JL came to operate MXP & FCO but they were discontinued

Currently NH continues with its new flight HND - MXP with Boeing 787-9, also between AZ&NH they have shared codes for connections in Japan and Europe
 
MAH4546
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:03 pm

Capricorn wrote:
As I don't speak Italian, AZ eventually plans to fly to HND & NRT from FCO? If there is that much demand surely NH or JL would jump in the water as well. If one was served from MXP or another airport I can see that work, but is there that much demand to make FCO-TYO double daily year round workable especially given the limited connectability of the new AZ. Or would the additional flight to NRT be only seasonal?

(Thank you for sharing these interesting slides btw)


Ignoring the effects of COVID, Italy to Japan is absolutely massive local market. Like insanely huge. Yes the demand exists.
 
oldJoe
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:11 pm

Blerg wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
spannacomo wrote:
AZ left MXP 12 years ago yet you are saying the same nonsense showing you don't understand why AZ never made a profit in this long period. It's like these 12 years passed without a trace for some people.


AZ simply left MXP or forced out by competetion ? The simple answer is they can`t compete at this airport !


If one is to follow that logic then they can't compete at LIN or FCO since they are still not generating enough cash at those airports to cover their expenses. Maybe it's time to ditch FCO in favor of CIA?

On a more serious note, we do not know if they would have kept on losing money in MXP if they fixed their costs and got a leaner cost structure. They failed in MXP not because of the market but rather because they were and still are a mess.


If you take me not serious have a look at all the defunct airlines ( pax ) in Italy wich where flying to or from MXP at ~ 2012 , all competition. Even Cargoitalia failed against competition.
An ( home ) airline wich can`t make the bigger airport of Milan ( second biggest town in Italy ) working even with the big bucks of Etihad , what you expect ? :highfive:
A partner company of us near Milan takes Air Dolomiti to FRA ( Italian citizen ) onword to Asia says it all !
I really have Italian roots but I don`t go for so much wasted taxpayers money at all ! Dead birth will always be a death birth !
 
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lesfalls
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:45 pm

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
Capricorn wrote:
As I don't speak Italian, AZ eventually plans to fly to HND & NRT from FCO? If there is that much demand surely NH or JL would jump in the water as well. If one was served from MXP or another airport I can see that work, but is there that much demand to make FCO-TYO double daily year round workable especially given the limited connectability of the new AZ. Or would the additional flight to NRT be only seasonal?

(Thank you for sharing these interesting slides btw)


AZ plans to stay until FCO - HND moments and then resume FCO - NRT in 2023 possibly between Italy and Japan there is a strong O&D demand, JL came to operate MXP & FCO but they were discontinued

Currently NH continues with its new flight HND - MXP with Boeing 787-9, also between AZ&NH they have shared codes for connections in Japan and Europe


When did JL operate to MXP? I thought it was years ago they last flew the route.
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:02 pm

lesfalls wrote:
RainerBoeing777 wrote:
Capricorn wrote:
As I don't speak Italian, AZ eventually plans to fly to HND & NRT from FCO? If there is that much demand surely NH or JL would jump in the water as well. If one was served from MXP or another airport I can see that work, but is there that much demand to make FCO-TYO double daily year round workable especially given the limited connectability of the new AZ. Or would the additional flight to NRT be only seasonal?

(Thank you for sharing these interesting slides btw)


AZ plans to stay until FCO - HND moments and then resume FCO - NRT in 2023 possibly between Italy and Japan there is a strong O&D demand, JL came to operate MXP & FCO but they were discontinued

Currently NH continues with its new flight HND - MXP with Boeing 787-9, also between AZ&NH they have shared codes for connections in Japan and Europe


When did JL operate to MXP? I thought it was years ago they last flew the route.


JL's last flights in Italy were NRT - MXP / FCO with Boeing 747-400 in 2010, at that time AZ was flying FCO - NRT / KIX and MXP - NRT, then AZ would cancel KIX in 2015
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:03 am

MAH4546 wrote:
Capricorn wrote:
As I don't speak Italian, AZ eventually plans to fly to HND & NRT from FCO? If there is that much demand surely NH or JL would jump in the water as well. If one was served from MXP or another airport I can see that work, but is there that much demand to make FCO-TYO double daily year round workable especially given the limited connectability of the new AZ. Or would the additional flight to NRT be only seasonal?

(Thank you for sharing these interesting slides btw)


Ignoring the effects of COVID, Italy to Japan is absolutely massive local market. Like insanely huge. Yes the demand exists.


Just commenting that I am going to guess that the demand really is Japan to Italy and back. The Japanese sure love them some Italian culture! I think to them it's the beacon of the artistically cultivated contributions of the West. I agree. Shout-out to Italy!
 
Capricorn
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:07 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
Capricorn wrote:
As I don't speak Italian, AZ eventually plans to fly to HND & NRT from FCO? If there is that much demand surely NH or JL would jump in the water as well. If one was served from MXP or another airport I can see that work, but is there that much demand to make FCO-TYO double daily year round workable especially given the limited connectability of the new AZ. Or would the additional flight to NRT be only seasonal?

(Thank you for sharing these interesting slides btw)


Ignoring the effects of COVID, Italy to Japan is absolutely massive local market. Like insanely huge. Yes the demand exists.


Just commenting that I am going to guess that the demand really is Japan to Italy and back. The Japanese sure love them some Italian culture! I think to them it's the beacon of the artistically cultivated contributions of the West. I agree. Shout-out to Italy!


That is why this is surprising to me that AZ tries to fly double daily as a stronger demand Japan to Italy demand compared to Italy to Japan would favour a Japanese point of sale, yet AFAIK neither JL nor NH were flying to Italy themselves before C19. So either they are missing out on a great market opportunity or the rout is not as profitable as the other routes in the JL and NH network, which begs the question of how AZ can / will make it work (I guess the new AZ has somewhat lower cost structure compared to the Japanese airlines)

Also Long haul is usually very O&D J dependent and I wonder if there is enough demand from FCO there for double daily service (compared to MXP which seems to serve the Italian business community better)
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:43 pm

You have to understand the japanese market to understand this decision. Japan is a relatively premium market, moreso than most other destinations in East Asia, fares are usually higher to TYO than to SEL for example, but fares from TYO to Europe are crazy high, even in Y. POS might be heavily skewed towards the japanese side but their high operating costs often make these routes difficult. JL and NH have very few destinations if you look closely, far less than KE or CX for example. In Europe they only fly to partner hubs (LHR/FRA/MUC/VIE/HEL) + CDG/FRA for JL (and AF used to be a partner an somewhat still is) and CDG/LHR for NH. They just focus on the top O&D markets.

Also, don't forget that AZ partners with NH and sell connections from FCO to the rest of Italy. Connections it can't sell from MXP because they don't operate shorthaul flights from there. For AZ it's easier to aggregate everything in one hub where they can offer frequency and more connections.

Now of course for passengers that means that its just as easy to hop on a flight to FCO than it is to MUC or FRA which is why Air Dolomiti is doing so well, but the cost of split operations in Milan would likely make them bleed even more.

Unless LIN closes (which it won't considering the recent works) MXP will never realise its true potential as a hub and will always play second fiddle to LIN and FCO. Hubs require feed, splitting flights between LIN and MXP means losing out on frequency. Moving everything away from LIN means losing passengers to competitors. (I know many friends from Milan that would rather check-in and do everything in LIN and connect in MUC than go to MXP. AZ is really in a catch 22 because FCO isn't even geographically well located, that plus the overstaffing, low productivity, split fleet with tiny subfleets (low number of A330 and 777) and you lose all benefits that come with scale. That plu the fact they have very few unfair advantages such as AF with Africa, IB with LATAM, BA with the US/Canada and they're left with almost nothing.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:03 pm

Capricorn wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:

Ignoring the effects of COVID, Italy to Japan is absolutely massive local market. Like insanely huge. Yes the demand exists.


Just commenting that I am going to guess that the demand really is Japan to Italy and back. The Japanese sure leove them some Italian culture! I think to them it's the beacon of the artistically cultivated contributions of the West. I agree. Shout-out to Italy!


That is why this is surprising to me that AZ tries to fly double daily as a stronger demand Japan to Italy demand compared to Italy to Japan would favour a Japanese point of sale, yet AFAIK neither JL nor NH were flying to Italy themselves before C19. So either they are missing out on a great market opportunity or the rout is not as profitable as the other routes in the JL and NH network, which begs the question of how AZ can / will make it work (I guess the new AZ has somewhat lower cost structure compared to the Japanese airlines)

Also Long haul is usually very O&D J dependent and I wonder if there is enough demand from FCO there for double daily service (compared to MXP which seems to serve the Italian business community better)


I think most Japanese like to travel in groups/tours and the question is what Italian-owned company has infiltrated the market to perhaps tip the sales to AZ, touting a genuine Italian experience from start to finish. Why not let the romanticism start before taking to the skies! Just a guess.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:29 pm

LIN-LCY/LHR- IIRC these flights (operated by all carriers) can't continue as LIN is an airport designated for EU flights only.

As one poster said above, fares ex Japan to Europe are crazy high. It was common many years ago for business class pax to buy a ticket to HKG, then buy a separate HKG-Europe ticket.
 
bennett123
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:39 pm

Just looked at the diagrams provided by dcajet.

Has AZ announced the source of all these shiny new planes or how they will pay for them.

By 2026, their B777 and A321 in particular will be getting a bit long in the tooth.

https://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/Alitalia.htm
 
spannacomo
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:43 pm

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
...
Unless LIN closes (which it won't considering the recent works) MXP will never realise its true potential as a hub and will always play second fiddle to LIN and FCO. Hubs require feed, splitting flights between LIN and MXP means losing out on frequency. Moving everything away from LIN means losing passengers to competitors. (I know many friends from Milan that would rather check-in and do everything in LIN and connect in MUC than go to MXP. AZ is really in a catch 22 because FCO isn't even geographically well located, that plus the overstaffing, low productivity, split fleet with tiny subfleets (low number of A330 and 777) and you lose all benefits that come with scale. That plu the fact they have very few unfair advantages such as AF with Africa, IB with LATAM, BA with the US/Canada and they're left with almost nothing.

here is another one deluded with LIN and FCO, like AZ. You are repeating the same clichés over and over but alitalia losses in LIN and FCO won't go away, they will stay and they will shrink the company to his death. All of you will finally understand the hard way that you are wrong.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:52 pm

spannacomo wrote:

here is another one deluded with LIN and FCO, like AZ. You are repeating the same clichés over and over but alitalia losses in LIN and FCO won't go away, they will stay and they will shrink the company to his death. All of you will finally understand the hard way that you are wrong.


I think you misunderstood me, I'm saying no matter what AZ does they're boxed in from all corners and will continue burning cash. Shrinking won't help either. I do think that if they can get their cost basis in order LIN might be break even, but they have no longhaul network to feed into to subsidize shorthaul losses. AZ's longhaul footprint is pretty barebones for a major carrier let's face it...


I really wish Air Italy hadn't folded and was able to become the airline QR wanted it to be. A young 2 type fleet with efficient longhaul planes. 5 years down the line it would have been the perfect case study "Why alitalia can't win" or "Why MXP is the crown jewel of Italy"
 
spannacomo
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:09 pm

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
spannacomo wrote:

here is another one deluded with LIN and FCO, like AZ. You are repeating the same clichés over and over but alitalia losses in LIN and FCO won't go away, they will stay and they will shrink the company to his death. All of you will finally understand the hard way that you are wrong.


I think you misunderstood me, I'm saying no matter what AZ does they're boxed in from all corners and will continue burning cash. Shrinking won't help either. I do think that if they can get their cost basis in order LIN might be break even, but they have no longhaul network to feed into to subsidize shorthaul losses. AZ's longhaul footprint is pretty barebones for a major carrier let's face it...

sorry, maybe I misread the FCO part, but LIN will never be profitable either for a full service company, it's an ideal base for an LCC, no matter what your friends from milan say. Costs are not a problem for AZ, just look at their CASK which is one of the best for a european FSC, revenues are the problem because LIN + FCO are producing a very low RASK, I mean both of them, not just FCO. So if AZ want to solve their problems they have to look for a better RASK airport, actually they had one 13 years ago, but they decided to leave because somebody started repeating stupid clichés. As a result the company shrank but the losses are still there.
 
factsonly
Posts: 3198
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:02 pm

FLJ wrote:
Is it already known if they will keep the Alitalia name with the current brand (introduced in 2015), or can we expect a rebrand with the ITA name (as we can see in the presentation above)?


Talks are in progress with the old Alitalia SAI for the purchase of some of the commercial assets such as;

- the Alitalia AZ code,
- 055 IATA ticket issuing plate,
- Alitalia brand,
- London Heathrow slots
- Programma Millemiglia, the frequent flyer program.

Marco Finelli reporting from Italy - World Airline News.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 700
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:06 pm

factsonly wrote:
FLJ wrote:
Is it already known if they will keep the Alitalia name with the current brand (introduced in 2015), or can we expect a rebrand with the ITA name (as we can see in the presentation above)?


Talks are in progress with the old Alitalia SAI for the purchase of some of the commercial assets such as;

- the Alitalia AZ code,
- 055 IATA ticket issuing plate,
- Alitalia brand,
- London Heathrow slots
- Programma Millemiglia, the frequent flyer program.

Marco Finelli reporting from Italy - World Airline News.


Which value have these assets ( exclude LHR slots ) at all ?
 
bennett123
Posts: 10886
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:15 pm

So what happens to the other assets?.
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 1676
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:40 pm

factsonly wrote:
FLJ wrote:
Is it already known if they will keep the Alitalia name with the current brand (introduced in 2015), or can we expect a rebrand with the ITA name (as we can see in the presentation above)?


Talks are in progress with the old Alitalia SAI for the purchase of some of the commercial assets such as;


Are these *real* talks or is this just an illusion so as to avoid creditors suing the administrators of the old company ?
 
runway23
Posts: 2428
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:21 pm

eta unknown wrote:
LIN-LCY/LHR- IIRC these flights (operated by all carriers) can't continue as LIN is an airport designated for EU flights only.

As one poster said above, fares ex Japan to Europe are crazy high. It was common many years ago for business class pax to buy a ticket to HKG, then buy a separate HKG-Europe ticket.


AZ operated LIN-GVA until February or March this year. So you can have some non-EU flights from LIN.
 
dcajet
Posts: 5107
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:40 am

factsonly wrote:
FLJ wrote:
Is it already known if they will keep the Alitalia name with the current brand (introduced in 2015), or can we expect a rebrand with the ITA name (as we can see in the presentation above)?


Talks are in progress with the old Alitalia SAI for the purchase of some of the commercial assets such as;

- the Alitalia AZ code,
- 055 IATA ticket issuing plate,
- Alitalia brand,
- London Heathrow slots
- Programma Millemiglia, the frequent flyer program.

Marco Finelli reporting from Italy - World Airline News.


Now, wait a minute. So the Italian State is talking to the Italian State about the purchase of some assets that belong to the Italian State?
 
Blerg
Posts: 5222
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:23 am

oldJoe wrote:
factsonly wrote:
FLJ wrote:
Is it already known if they will keep the Alitalia name with the current brand (introduced in 2015), or can we expect a rebrand with the ITA name (as we can see in the presentation above)?


Talks are in progress with the old Alitalia SAI for the purchase of some of the commercial assets such as;

- the Alitalia AZ code,
- 055 IATA ticket issuing plate,
- Alitalia brand,
- London Heathrow slots
- Programma Millemiglia, the frequent flyer program.

Marco Finelli reporting from Italy - World Airline News.


Which value have these assets ( exclude LHR slots ) at all ?


My guess is that the frequent flyer program has some value as it would provide them with a certain number of regular and I suppose high yielding passengers. Then again all this could be just a way for more money to be thrown at the old Alitalia, either for corruption or to settle some old bills.
 
Blerg
Posts: 5222
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:24 am

dcajet wrote:
factsonly wrote:
FLJ wrote:
Is it already known if they will keep the Alitalia name with the current brand (introduced in 2015), or can we expect a rebrand with the ITA name (as we can see in the presentation above)?


Talks are in progress with the old Alitalia SAI for the purchase of some of the commercial assets such as;

- the Alitalia AZ code,
- 055 IATA ticket issuing plate,
- Alitalia brand,
- London Heathrow slots
- Programma Millemiglia, the frequent flyer program.

Marco Finelli reporting from Italy - World Airline News.


Now, wait a minute. So the Italian State is talking to the Italian State about the purchase of some assets that belong to the Italian State?


It might all belong to the Italian state but these two companies are separate legal entities which is why certain 'assets' need to be moved around.
 
spannacomo
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:56 pm

Analysis of new alitalia plan by former chief strategist at IAG Robert Boyle
https://www.gridpoint.consulting/blog/another-rescue-plan-for-alitalia
 
oldJoe
Posts: 700
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:52 pm

Blerg wrote:
dcajet wrote:
factsonly wrote:

Talks are in progress with the old Alitalia SAI for the purchase of some of the commercial assets such as;

- the Alitalia AZ code,
- 055 IATA ticket issuing plate,
- Alitalia brand,
- London Heathrow slots
- Programma Millemiglia, the frequent flyer program.

Marco Finelli reporting from Italy - World Airline News.


Now, wait a minute. So the Italian State is talking to the Italian State about the purchase of some assets that belong to the Italian State?


It might all belong to the Italian state but these two companies are separate legal entities which is why certain 'assets' need to be moved around.


Which sense it makes to take money out of your left pocket and put it in your right pocket ? Oh , I forgot not cash , Promissory note !
 
RainerBoeing777
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:43 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:09 am

spannacomo wrote:
Analysis of new alitalia plan by former chief strategist at IAG Robert Boyle
https://www.gridpoint.consulting/blog/another-rescue-plan-for-alitalia


I did not understand something here, are you going to keep the A332? but if they don't have the range to fly to EZE and LAX and those routes are going to keep

In addition, one of the big problems of AZ was the expensive leases of the A332s so that they continue to maintain them, it is better to have the B777s that are their own the majority

There are too many articles that talk backwards, I don't know what to believe anymore but keeping the A332 is going back to the same problems

In addition, in this new post-Covid era, aircraft with a large cargo capacity are needed that the B777 offers and the A332s do not.
 
Blerg
Posts: 5222
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:51 am

oldJoe wrote:
Blerg wrote:
dcajet wrote:

Now, wait a minute. So the Italian State is talking to the Italian State about the purchase of some assets that belong to the Italian State?


It might all belong to the Italian state but these two companies are separate legal entities which is why certain 'assets' need to be moved around.


Which sense it makes to take money out of your left pocket and put it in your right pocket ? Oh , I forgot not cash , Promissory note !


It makes sense if your left pocket has too many holes in it and you risk losing the money you put in it. ;)
 
oldJoe
Posts: 700
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 8:24 pm

Blerg wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
Blerg wrote:

It might all belong to the Italian state but these two companies are separate legal entities which is why certain 'assets' need to be moved around.


Which sense it makes to take money out of your left pocket and put it in your right pocket ? Oh , I forgot not cash , Promissory note !


It makes sense if your left pocket has too many holes in it and you risk losing the money you put in it. ;)


Are you joking ? :rotfl: When I remember well this airline since 2002 write their numbers only with red ink ? Is there any pocket left ?
If you read the analysis of Robert Boyle where the new airline expect to be in 2025 in the world of 2019 which was for many airlines a mega-year in profit but AZ lost more than a million € each day ! How many billions over the 10 , yes ten billion € wasted to keep a death birth alive ? What a mess to say at least.
With this airline the only thing you can rely on is that they burning cash and I feel very pitty for the Italian taxpayers to be honest ! :banghead:
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:25 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Makes you wonder if it would cost them less to have tried to save MXP than to have completely cut and suffered the consequences because of it.


AZ building a hub at MXP is futile when the key domestic and European routes by competitors are flown from the in city LIN for which customers have a preference for.

It simply repeats the failures of the past where AZ had to discount MXP flights to compete against LIN.


One only needs to look at the Milan Airports to understand Italy's aviation problem and AZ's inability to ever overcome its problems. MXP is too far from Milan, poorly served by public transportation, and LCCs, namely Easy Jet, have a significant footprint there at this point, meaning short-haul just won't work for anyone else and certainly not AZ. LIN and MXP duplicate short-haul routes didn't work in the 2000s and they won't work now. FCO is AZ's main hub, an airport with a patchwork of terminals, a tourist destination, with very limited business traffic. Much of Italy's cargo by air goes through MXP. The fact that AZ can't serve Italy's business capital says a lot about Italy and Alitalia.

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