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LAX772LR
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Re: RIP Alitalia, hello "ITA" (Italia Trasporto Aereo)

Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:28 am

Blerg wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Because of the money they pay into the EU budget. As a leading European economy they always had a major say in how the EU is run but now it will be even more. In 2019 they already surpassed the UK in EU contributions: Italy €14.96 billion, The UK €14.05.

That doesn't answer the question:
what could they do/cause now, that they could not have before? What does marginally higher contribution grant them, that they wouldn't have been able to negotiate previously?

The question was answered in my previous post

Well, no, it wasn't... all you did is repeat yourself, sans substantiation.

P.S. the ACTUAL answer by the way, is: "nothing."



mxaxai wrote:
Aeroflot --> ROFL

Nice!
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Blerg
Posts: 4839
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: RIP Alitalia, hello "ITA" (Italia Trasporto Aereo)

Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:58 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Blerg wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
That doesn't answer the question:
what could they do/cause now, that they could not have before? What does marginally higher contribution grant them, that they wouldn't have been able to negotiate previously?

The question was answered in my previous post

Well, no, it wasn't... all you did is repeat yourself, sans substantiation.

P.S. the ACTUAL answer by the way, is: "nothing."



mxaxai wrote:
Aeroflot --> ROFL

Nice!


Just because you can't spot or understand the answer doesn't mean it's not there. Maybe you should read up more on how power politics work in the EU before commenting on similar topics.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: RIP Alitalia, hello "ITA" (Italia Trasporto Aereo)

Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:18 am

Blerg wrote:
Just because you can't spot or understand the answer doesn't mean it's not there. Maybe you should read up more on how power politics work in the EU before commenting on similar topics.

You do have the opportunity (after only being asked three times in a row :roll: ) to objectively state what negotiable advantage that (you believe) the Italian state now has that it didn't previous to moving up a rung.

Logic would suggest that if you possessed the wherewithal to quantify/define any such concept, you'd do that... but instead, your three chosen responses have been to repeat a non-answer, then utter frustrated assumptions about the questioner. Hmmm.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
airsmiles
Posts: 168
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Re: RIP Alitalia, hello "ITA" (Italia Trasporto Aereo)

Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:18 am

Blerg wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Blerg wrote:
The question was answered in my previous post

Well, no, it wasn't... all you did is repeat yourself, sans substantiation.

P.S. the ACTUAL answer by the way, is: "nothing."



mxaxai wrote:
Aeroflot --> ROFL

Nice!


Just because you can't spot or understand the answer doesn't mean it's not there. Maybe you should read up more on how power politics work in the EU before commenting on similar topics.


Italy might be one of the largest contributors to the EU budget, but it’s also one of the EU’s biggest problems. It’s long been politically unstable and it’s debts are totally unstable. It’s in serious danger of crashing out of the eurozone, which will have huge implications for the euro currency. I don’t think Italy has much influence left.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: RIP Alitalia, hello "ITA" (Italia Trasporto Aereo)

Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:37 am

airsmiles wrote:
Blerg wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
P.S. the ACTUAL answer by the way, is: "nothing.

Just because you can't spot or understand the answer doesn't mean it's not there. Maybe you should read up more on how power politics work in the EU before commenting on similar topics.

Italy might be one of the largest contributors to the EU budget, but it’s also one of the EU’s biggest problems. It’s long been politically unstable and it’s debts are totally unstable. It’s in serious danger of crashing out of the eurozone, which will have huge implications for the euro currency. I don’t think Italy has much influence left.

Exactly. After all, the whole reason ITA will now be a thing, is because the EU is finally (starting to) put its foot down on the whole Italy/Alitalia dependency saga. If Italy had somehow acquired some undefinable influence that it never had before, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Granted, this latest exercise is mostly superficial, and won't fundamentally change much; but that's been the case with AZ's governmental rescues for decades.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Blerg
Posts: 4839
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Re: RIP Alitalia, hello "ITA" (Italia Trasporto Aereo)

Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:56 am

airsmiles wrote:
Blerg wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Well, no, it wasn't... all you did is repeat yourself, sans substantiation.

P.S. the ACTUAL answer by the way, is: "nothing."




Nice!


Just because you can't spot or understand the answer doesn't mean it's not there. Maybe you should read up more on how power politics work in the EU before commenting on similar topics.


Italy might be one of the largest contributors to the EU budget, but it’s also one of the EU’s biggest problems. It’s long been politically unstable and it’s debts are totally unstable. It’s in serious danger of crashing out of the eurozone, which will have huge implications for the euro currency. I don’t think Italy has much influence left.


It's high risk status is its biggest bargaining chip. After the loss of UK, the EU can't afford to lose another major player such as Italy. No matter how problematic they are, they still bring a lot to the table and the bureaucrats in Brussels know that. There is a reason why Brussels avoided kicking out countries out of the Eurozone in the past. Even small countries such as Greece whose departure could be absorbed by other members. Italy on the other hand wouldn't be such an easy case to deal with,
Because of all this and much more, Rome will be able to get away with pretty much anything. Think of it as the EU being a house on fire right now and Italy is a shed with gas tanks in its backyard. Brussels will do everything in its power to stop its spread. Rome knows this very well.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: RIP Alitalia, hello "ITA" (Italia Trasporto Aereo)

Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:37 pm

Blerg wrote:
airsmiles wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Just because you can't spot or understand the answer doesn't mean it's not there. Maybe you should read up more on how power politics work in the EU before commenting on similar topics.


Italy might be one of the largest contributors to the EU budget, but it’s also one of the EU’s biggest problems. It’s long been politically unstable and it’s debts are totally unstable. It’s in serious danger of crashing out of the eurozone, which will have huge implications for the euro currency. I don’t think Italy has much influence left.


It's high risk status is its biggest bargaining chip. After the loss of UK, the EU can't afford to lose another major player such as Italy. No matter how problematic they are, they still bring a lot to the table and the bureaucrats in Brussels know that. There is a reason why Brussels avoided kicking out countries out of the Eurozone in the past. Even small countries such as Greece whose departure could be absorbed by other members. Italy on the other hand wouldn't be such an easy case to deal with,
Because of all this and much more, Rome will be able to get away with pretty much anything. Think of it as the EU being a house on fire right now and Italy is a shed with gas tanks in its backyard. Brussels will do everything in its power to stop its spread. Rome knows this very well.


I don't think the EU cares whether Italy has a national airline or not, and the same likely goes for most countries within the bloc. What the EU does care about is state funds applied to prop up failing businesses. As the EU's third largest economy after Germany and France, and one which is significant in its exports, I suppose the country needs an airline, but if Alitalia closed tomorrow, Ryanair and Easy Jet would come in and fill the short-haul void AZ would leave behind and QR/EK or some other airline from within Europe would assume the few intercontinental routes that AZ operates that make money, namely JFK, EZE, GRU, LAX, and MIA. The rest is worthless.
 
Blerg
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Re: RIP Alitalia, hello "ITA" (Italia Trasporto Aereo)

Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:17 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
Blerg wrote:
airsmiles wrote:

Italy might be one of the largest contributors to the EU budget, but it’s also one of the EU’s biggest problems. It’s long been politically unstable and it’s debts are totally unstable. It’s in serious danger of crashing out of the eurozone, which will have huge implications for the euro currency. I don’t think Italy has much influence left.


It's high risk status is its biggest bargaining chip. After the loss of UK, the EU can't afford to lose another major player such as Italy. No matter how problematic they are, they still bring a lot to the table and the bureaucrats in Brussels know that. There is a reason why Brussels avoided kicking out countries out of the Eurozone in the past. Even small countries such as Greece whose departure could be absorbed by other members. Italy on the other hand wouldn't be such an easy case to deal with,
Because of all this and much more, Rome will be able to get away with pretty much anything. Think of it as the EU being a house on fire right now and Italy is a shed with gas tanks in its backyard. Brussels will do everything in its power to stop its spread. Rome knows this very well.


I don't think the EU cares whether Italy has a national airline or not, and the same likely goes for most countries within the bloc. What the EU does care about is state funds applied to prop up failing businesses. As the EU's third largest economy after Germany and France, and one which is significant in its exports, I suppose the country needs an airline, but if Alitalia closed tomorrow, Ryanair and Easy Jet would come in and fill the short-haul void AZ would leave behind and QR/EK or some other airline from within Europe would assume the few intercontinental routes that AZ operates that make money, namely JFK, EZE, GRU, LAX, and MIA. The rest is worthless.


From what I remember, before the European Commission starts an inquiry on whether state aid was legal or not, someone has to complain, that is write a complaint. Without it the EC wont launch an investigation on its own. Basically the EU cares only if their attention is directed that way. Given that Alitalia was reported numerous times and the EU did not shut them down like they did with MA or CY only goes to show that there is more than meets the eye. Rome keeps on pumping millions into AZ, they get reported yet the EU does nothing.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:23 pm

A few years ago, I made a formal complaint to the EU about Alitalia receiving Govt subsudies. I got a reply saying they could accept complaints only from other companies that were being actively harmed and that all other complaints were being ignored

It seems that somebody like MOL at Ryanair has to make a formal complaint before the EU will do anything about Alitalia's Govt subsidies
 
Blerg
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:03 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
A few years ago, I made a formal complaint to the EU about Alitalia receiving Govt subsudies. I got a reply saying they could accept complaints only from other companies that were being actively harmed and that all other complaints were being ignored

It seems that somebody like MOL at Ryanair has to make a formal complaint before the EU will do anything about Alitalia's Govt subsidies


Exactly. If I remember correctly, the EU only pursued subsidies received by JP, CY and MA because W6 and FR complained. The EU also launched an investigation into JU receiving subsidies after JP (backed by LH) complained.
 
airsmiles
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Re: RIP Alitalia, hello "ITA" (Italia Trasporto Aereo)

Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:14 am

Blerg wrote:
airsmiles wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Just because you can't spot or understand the answer doesn't mean it's not there. Maybe you should read up more on how power politics work in the EU before commenting on similar topics.


Italy might be one of the largest contributors to the EU budget, but it’s also one of the EU’s biggest problems. It’s long been politically unstable and it’s debts are totally unstable. It’s in serious danger of crashing out of the eurozone, which will have huge implications for the euro currency. I don’t think Italy has much influence left.


It's high risk status is its biggest bargaining chip. After the loss of UK, the EU can't afford to lose another major player such as Italy. No matter how problematic they are, they still bring a lot to the table and the bureaucrats in Brussels know that. There is a reason why Brussels avoided kicking out countries out of the Eurozone in the past. Even small countries such as Greece whose departure could be absorbed by other members. Italy on the other hand wouldn't be such an easy case to deal with,
Because of all this and much more, Rome will be able to get away with pretty much anything. Think of it as the EU being a house on fire right now and Italy is a shed with gas tanks in its backyard. Brussels will do everything in its power to stop its spread. Rome knows this very well.


You’re assuming that Italy is bargaining with an EU that can control all events that affect it. It needs to solve some serious financial problems quick to avoid budget deficiencies and out of control Target2 balances, but the ECB is already out of options and the German courts are already saying no. Also, the EU cannot control the population and voters will eventually decide that change is needed.

There’s no saviour for Alitalia/ITA, or Italy, at the EU. They made their mind up about Italy long ago.
 
Blerg
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Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: RIP Alitalia, hello "ITA" (Italia Trasporto Aereo)

Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:16 am

airsmiles wrote:
Blerg wrote:
airsmiles wrote:

Italy might be one of the largest contributors to the EU budget, but it’s also one of the EU’s biggest problems. It’s long been politically unstable and it’s debts are totally unstable. It’s in serious danger of crashing out of the eurozone, which will have huge implications for the euro currency. I don’t think Italy has much influence left.


It's high risk status is its biggest bargaining chip. After the loss of UK, the EU can't afford to lose another major player such as Italy. No matter how problematic they are, they still bring a lot to the table and the bureaucrats in Brussels know that. There is a reason why Brussels avoided kicking out countries out of the Eurozone in the past. Even small countries such as Greece whose departure could be absorbed by other members. Italy on the other hand wouldn't be such an easy case to deal with,
Because of all this and much more, Rome will be able to get away with pretty much anything. Think of it as the EU being a house on fire right now and Italy is a shed with gas tanks in its backyard. Brussels will do everything in its power to stop its spread. Rome knows this very well.


You’re assuming that Italy is bargaining with an EU that can control all events that affect it. It needs to solve some serious financial problems quick to avoid budget deficiencies and out of control Target2 balances, but the ECB is already out of options and the German courts are already saying no. Also, the EU cannot control the population and voters will eventually decide that change is needed.

There’s no saviour for Alitalia/ITA, or Italy, at the EU. They made their mind up about Italy long ago.


All I am saying is that Italy can do what it wants and the EU won't do anything about it. Just like they did nothing over the past few years. Lisbon Treaty was signed in 2009 and since then Brussels got a lot more authority (at least on paper) over its member states. Meanwhile, the situation in Italy has only gotten worse since then.
 
airsmiles
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Re: RIP Alitalia, hello "ITA" (Italia Trasporto Aereo)

Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:34 pm

Blerg wrote:
airsmiles wrote:
Blerg wrote:

It's high risk status is its biggest bargaining chip. After the loss of UK, the EU can't afford to lose another major player such as Italy. No matter how problematic they are, they still bring a lot to the table and the bureaucrats in Brussels know that. There is a reason why Brussels avoided kicking out countries out of the Eurozone in the past. Even small countries such as Greece whose departure could be absorbed by other members. Italy on the other hand wouldn't be such an easy case to deal with,
Because of all this and much more, Rome will be able to get away with pretty much anything. Think of it as the EU being a house on fire right now and Italy is a shed with gas tanks in its backyard. Brussels will do everything in its power to stop its spread. Rome knows this very well.


You’re assuming that Italy is bargaining with an EU that can control all events that affect it. It needs to solve some serious financial problems quick to avoid budget deficiencies and out of control Target2 balances, but the ECB is already out of options and the German courts are already saying no. Also, the EU cannot control the population and voters will eventually decide that change is needed.

There’s no saviour for Alitalia/ITA, or Italy, at the EU. They made their mind up about Italy long ago.


All I am saying is that Italy can do what it wants and the EU won't do anything about it. Just like they did nothing over the past few years. Lisbon Treaty was signed in 2009 and since then Brussels got a lot more authority (at least on paper) over its member states. Meanwhile, the situation in Italy has only gotten worse since then.


Italy, a country I love, has my deepest sympathy in trying to exist within the EU. Like a handful of other countries, it’s stuck in an economic and political system that doesn’t suit it.

As for Alitalia, I personally think it’s a great brand and it would be unwise to lose it. That’s not to say it doesn’t need to restructure (cost cut) and decide upon a new strategy to provide sustainable growth and profitability.
 
dcajet
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:44 am

Alitalia has extended the suspension of the Rome FCO - Buenos Aires EZE route until May 31st. No doubt due to continued pandemic fallout, but probably influenced as well by the particular situation AZ/ITA is going through
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:11 pm

Relaunching in a crisis, Alitalia scales back at home

The new business plan includes the “elimination of all hub bypass routes” lacking international connections – between Sicily and Turin, for instance – according to the recent submission to senators, first reported in the Italian press.

A workforce of 9,500 – compared with 11,000 in 2019 – will be hired on new contracts rather than carried over ... Lazzerini aims to boost traffic through a new deal with current partner Air France-KLM, Lufthansa or another European player – by leveraging the “negotiating power” of coveted Milan-Linate airport slots, his plan says.

Industry experts voiced scepticism about a strategy reliant on long-haul and corporate travel markets that are expected to remain depressed for some time.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2AG1EJ

Summary: ITA / Alitalia to focus on hubs and international flying, drop loss-making domestic point-to-point routes.
 
deltatrav
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:49 pm

Do AZ's narrowbodies have wifi? streaming entertainment? Some of them do longer runs (BEY, TLV, CAI, SVO etc) so wonder what they offer other than cold meals.
 
dcajet
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:25 am

Just when one thinks the AZ/ITA plot can't get any thicker... Lufthansa's back in the picture.

https://www.barrons.com/news/italy-mull ... 05?tesla=y
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
IADFCO
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:42 am

dcajet wrote:
Just when one thinks the AZ/ITA plot can't get any thicker... Lufthansa's back in the picture.

https://www.barrons.com/news/italy-mull ... 05?tesla=y


This is entirely my own opinion, but I would wait to believe that scenario. Prime Minister Draghi just got his vote of confidence from the Parliament. That plan was likely developed by the previous government, and may or may not be accepted by the current one. The key people involved in the decisions have changed, starting from Draghi himself of course, and he has selected the ministers so as to retain a very tight grip on all things related to the economy. However, in his speeches to the Parliament he has sounded like a hardliner, stating that companies that were not healthy before the pandemic will not necessarily be saved, and many commentators wondered if that meant Alitalia.
 
dcajet
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:14 am

IADFCO wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Just when one thinks the AZ/ITA plot can't get any thicker... Lufthansa's back in the picture.

https://www.barrons.com/news/italy-mull ... 05?tesla=y


This is entirely my own opinion, but I would wait to believe that scenario. Prime Minister Draghi just got his vote of confidence from the Parliament. That plan was likely developed by the previous government, and may or may not be accepted by the current one. The key people involved in the decisions have changed, starting from Draghi himself of course, and he has selected the ministers so as to retain a very tight grip on all things related to the economy. However, in his speeches to the Parliament he has sounded like a hardliner, stating that companies that were not healthy before the pandemic will not necessarily be saved, and many commentators wondered if that meant Alitalia.


Thanks for your comment. I get the feeling this will not be the last development we will hear of the Alitalia/ITA/New Co. transformation...
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
Blerg
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:57 pm

I highly doubt LH is serious about AZ. They have enough problems of their own especially when you take into considerationg that neither SN nor OS are about to become profitable.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:00 am

dcajet wrote:
Just when one thinks the AZ/ITA plot can't get any thicker... Lufthansa's back in the picture.

https://www.barrons.com/news/italy-mull ... 05?tesla=y

Note that this rumor only concerns Alitalia Cityliner, AZ's regional subsidary with 10 E170 and 5 E190. I suppose LH could easily integrate this into their own regional subsidiary, Air Dolomity, with a current fleet of 15 E195. This would be their third attempt to enter the Italian domestic market, after a codeshare agreement with Air One (until 2009) and Lufthansa Italia (until 2011).
 
factsonly
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:49 pm

The new Italian Government under Mario Draghi is changing the proposals for the new ITA/Alitalia, as the EU has indicated that they are unlikely to approve the Government's role / investment presented in earlier proposals.

The new proposals are for a smaller ITA/Alitalia airline with just 43-45 aircraft and 2.500-3.000 employees.
The government might invest between Euro 1-2 billion, but not the suggested Euro 3 billion.
It includes a clear separation between the airline and 'other' services, such as ground services. These would be housed elsewhere.

For more details:
https://www.ilgiornale.it/news/economia ... 27653.html
 
bennett123
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:28 pm

Interesting times, but will it be carried through?.
 
Blerg
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:52 am

factsonly wrote:
The new Italian Government under Mario Draghi is changing the proposals for the new ITA/Alitalia, as the EU has indicated that they are unlikely to approve the Government's role / investment presented in earlier proposals.

The new proposals are for a smaller ITA/Alitalia airline with just 43-45 aircraft and 2.500-3.000 employees.
The government might invest between Euro 1-2 billion, but not the suggested Euro 3 billion.
It includes a clear separation between the airline and 'other' services, such as ground services. These would be housed elsewhere.

For more details:
https://www.ilgiornale.it/news/economia ... 27653.html


Televisa presenta ... episode 512
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:18 am

Even more interesting is that Draghi ("help AZ, but not at any cost!) is personally involved with the discussions (probably because he knows the EU has rejected the previous plan) whereas his predecessor ("we must save jobs") delegated it completely to the respective ministers. Perhaps Draghi really wants to shut AZ down, but that will look bad- this week's plan makes AZ a more attractive takeover target, but with 50% staff (now let's watch the unions protest).
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:56 pm

eta unknown wrote:
Even more interesting is that Draghi ("help AZ, but not at any cost!) is personally involved with the discussions (probably because he knows the EU has rejected the previous plan) whereas his predecessor ("we must save jobs") delegated it completely to the respective ministers. Perhaps Draghi really wants to shut AZ down, but that will look bad- this week's plan makes AZ a more attractive takeover target, but with 50% staff (now let's watch the unions protest).


That's probably true. AZ and the most recent Italian government efforts to save it have broken every EU rule around bankruptcy and state funding of distressed companies. One of the biggest issues with the most recent (pre-Draghi) reorganization plan for Alitalia, or industrial plan as they call it, was the multi-year plan to continue paying salaries to AZ employees who would not be continuing on with the "new" company.

I suppose the EU's third largest economy, and a highly export-driven one, can't be without a national airline of some sort, but AZ remains as toxic as ever, with its future always in the hands of its capricious, greedy unions, Italy's never ending political carousel, and it seems the most recent blueprints for it do nothing to really make it a stronger player even amid the pandemic. FCO is not an ideal place to maintain a hub. It is a big destination for sure, but skews leisure, not so much business, and the configuration of the airport, a hodgepodge of terminals (some very nice) that make transit inefficient. AZ's Linate operation is the crown jewel and yet they can't fly long haul from there, given the physical constraints of the airport, and yet can't seem to make MXP work (I believe whatever remains of the MXP operation, however small, does not exist in the new plan), making it extraordinary that AZ will have no long haul service to even a handful of key business destinations from Italy's financial, creative, and commercial capital.

Yet, AZ will live on. It always does.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:23 pm

Italian government commission says AZ in 32 months of extraordinary administration and before the arrival of the coronavirus, the airline provided Italy a net positive contribution of at least 630 million euros.
Estimate takes into account 1.3 billion loans made by the state over the same period of time and another 300 million interest on that public money.

https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziend ... 6bc0.shtml

In essence, while the airline is a money pit on a standalone basis as a national company, it provides strong benefits related sectors and provides a net benefit for the broader economy.
mercure f-wtcc
 
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N717TW
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:59 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Italian government commission says AZ in 32 months of extraordinary administration and before the arrival of the coronavirus, the airline provided Italy a net positive contribution of at least 630 million euros.
Estimate takes into account 1.3 billion loans made by the state over the same period of time and another 300 million interest on that public money.

https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziend ... 6bc0.shtml

In essence, while the airline is a money pit on a standalone basis as a national company, it provides strong benefits related sectors and provides a net benefit for the broader economy.


I guess this all depends on the comparison to what would happen if AZ were allowed to fail and other airlines filled the void...while its true that there surely wouldn't be as much nonstop service (especially inter-continental) from Italy, the biggest voids would be filled either by foreign lines or by a new Italian-flagged version of an EU carrier (e.g. LH-Italia or IAG d'Italia, etc.) The short-haul/EU voids would most certainly be filled quickly by EasyJet, Ryanair and Wizz, etc. although some short and thin routes would lose their nonstop service.

Would there be as many jobs? (would the LCCs add crew bases and mx bases in Italy)... could there be more jobs as other (especially foreign) airlines have to staff up and potentially have more ground/operations/sales staff?
Could the gov't generate a similar amount of service as AZ operated via incentives (either waving fees/taxes or in direct subsidies) and would that be less than what they need to pump into AZ?

Given the importance that airlines seem to have to national identity, it just feels unlikely the Italian government would let AZ completely fail. To this day, all the major EU nations plus UK still have a flag carrier brand (SAS being a hybrid outlier of sorts) that runs the politically important flights to major global cities and former colonial outposts. Brussels Airlines/Belgium being the closest to having lost its flag carrier but yet still hasn't tells me that it'll be very hard for any Italian gov't to become the first major EU country to see itself without a flag carrier.
 
IADFCO
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:22 pm

I'm sure that Alitalia will also benefit from the total EU vaccine fiasco, where the EU now finds itself at the complete mercy of non-EU vaccine makers. If a government believes that a sector is truly strategic, it must retain at least a minimum of national ownership and therefore independence. The O'Learies of the world can be welcome to do business in Italy, but air service cannot be totally left in their hands -- especially by a country for which tourism is such a significant percentage of GDP.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:19 am

As Italy effectively locks down again and Summer 2021 looks very bleak for TATL, what is the consensus on AZ's long haul network? Right now, it consists of just one passenger route, FCO-JFK-FCO, on an A332. The industrial plan for the next turn of the "new" AZ will have just 6 long haul aircraft, all of them, I believe 777-200ERs. What is the likelihood of EZE, GRU, BOS, LAX, MIA, and ORD restarting, which all seem like the only long haul routes to survive (plus maybe NRT) in the new iteration of this company?

Also, on the 777-300ER that is leased, it has been converted to cargo for now. Will it be reconfigured back to pax capacity at some point?
 
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DKNEF
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:15 am

What ever happened to AZ launching SFO? I remember seeing a billboard along the 101 announcing the new route right before Covid..
 
Ishrion
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:26 am

DKNEF wrote:
What ever happened to AZ launching SFO? I remember seeing a billboard along the 101 announcing the new route right before Covid..


Scheduled to start on June 1 with a 4x weekly 777-200ER. Obviously subject to change.
Leaving the forums. You may know where to find me.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:59 pm

I am not sure what the point would be to start a new route to SFO at this time, which even under ideal circumstances is a big commercial risk.

The U.S. still has a travel ban on EU, and the pandemic is surging again in Italy with a new lockdown that commenced on Monday and yesterday reported its highest death count since late 2020.
mercure f-wtcc
 
bennett123
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:13 pm

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... et-tenders

Latest news anticipates 6 B777, 40 A319/A320 so no A321 also no Cityliner.

Staff down to 4,500 to 4,900.
 
ahj2000
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:49 pm

bennett123 wrote:
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/101733-alitalia-newco-to-launch-ops-early-3q21-plans-asset-tenders

Latest news anticipates 6 B777, 40 A319/A320 so no A321 also no Cityliner.

Staff down to 4,500 to 4,900.

How will 6 777 have enough to power even the profitable service? From my understanding, the most profitable routes are JFK, EZE, and TYO. EZE and TYO definitely would need two frames. So there could be one spare frame-without MXP service, service to places like ORD, LAX, MIA, YYZ, or Brazil, some of which you’d think would have to be somewhat profitable (outside a pandemic).
-Andrés Juánez
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:54 am

Latest AZ saga news:
1. AZ staff only received 50% of their March salaries
2. The EU is insisting AZ separate their ground handling and maintenance divisions from the new company. Also, there are some branding issues (new company can't have the AZ name for free) and some LIN slots will need to be given up. Naturally, the unions are crying foul claiming these restrictions will set the new airline up for failure. Time and money are starting to run out... if the govt. doesn't comply AZ will be in illegal state aid territory with a real possibility of being shut down similar to Malev & Olympic.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:26 am

eta unknown wrote:
Latest AZ saga news:
1. AZ staff only received 50% of their March salaries
2. The EU is insisting AZ separate their ground handling and maintenance divisions from the new company. Also, there are some branding issues (new company can't have the AZ name for free) and some LIN slots will need to be given up. Naturally, the unions are crying foul claiming these restrictions will set the new airline up for failure. Time and money are starting to run out... if the govt. doesn't comply AZ will be in illegal state aid territory with a real possibility of being shut down similar to Malev & Olympic.


The unions at AZ are the primary factor in what has made AZ the financial disaster that it is. The only path out for AZ to survive is to find an outside investor foolish enough to throw money at it. AZ's LIN slots are the only value the company has, so naturally, they want to hold onto it. The long haul network isn't profitable, except for JFK, EZE, GRU, and NRT, and all but JFK are not operating now and unlikely to for some time.
 
Capricorn
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:53 am

I think as a stand alone airline AZ will not "return" or rather see profitability in the future. I think that the only viable path would be a full integration into LHG/IAG/AFKL with the group executing all management decisions. This would certainly lead to many lost jobs, but would ensure the long term survival of the airline. Otherwise AZ will be sooner or later back for more state aide. But then again would LHG/IAG/AFKL really want to take over AZ? Probably not.
 
DUSZRH
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:24 pm

That’s why the EU wants them to sell off the maintenance and the ground handling. To limit (let’s say halve ;) ) the money pit a bit.

However, as their work rules and benefits are way out of industry norms, workers are set to lose a lot and hence you have the unions running havoc (the reason why these rules exist in the first place).
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:22 pm

Capricorn wrote:
But then again would LHG/IAG/AFKL really want to take over AZ? Probably not.

During the Conte govt. administration, LH at one point said they would be interested with one very clear caveat: the govt. has to fire 50% of the workers BEFORE LH takes over. In other words, don't expect LH to do your dirty work for you and then LH gets hit with a never ending flow of union problems and strikes.

AF-KL/LH had to divest slots for their aid packages, so now the EU is asking the same thing from AZ. Enough is enough... I think the EU knows it and I think the Draghi govt. knows it. Of course, some local newspapers try to change the AZ story: it's more than an airline, it provides tourism economic benefits and indirect employment blah, blah, blah.
 
Breathe
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:54 pm

While not ideal for the existing staff, it would be best to let this thing go to the wall, let someone pick up the brand and restart the airline with a clean slate. Probably not likely to happen though!
 
AZa346
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:04 pm

Anyway, does anyone know if there is a reason for which the LIN-CDG flight has recently switched over to LIN-ORY? If you want to book a MIL-CDG flight on AZ, they will route you via FCO as they oddly don't sell AF flights...

Also, it is very odd that Milan is served to ORY and Rome to CDG... two stations for maybe 4 flights a day...
 
Blerg
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:51 am

eta unknown wrote:
Latest AZ saga news:
1. AZ staff only received 50% of their March salaries
2. The EU is insisting AZ separate their ground handling and maintenance divisions from the new company. Also, there are some branding issues (new company can't have the AZ name for free) and some LIN slots will need to be given up. Naturally, the unions are crying foul claiming these restrictions will set the new airline up for failure. Time and money are starting to run out... if the govt. doesn't comply AZ will be in illegal state aid territory with a real possibility of being shut down similar to Malev & Olympic.


Just a small correction, it was Cyprus Airways that was shut down. Olympic was privatized and then sold off to Aegean.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:03 am

Yes & no... what was left of Olympic that was privatized and sold to Aegean was nothing more than a commuter operation.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:43 pm

Capricorn wrote:
I think as a stand alone airline AZ will not "return" or rather see profitability in the future. I think that the only viable path would be a full integration into LHG/IAG/AFKL with the group executing all management decisions. This would certainly lead to many lost jobs, but would ensure the long term survival of the airline. Otherwise AZ will be sooner or later back for more state aide. But then again would LHG/IAG/AFKL really want to take over AZ? Probably not.


The solution for AZ is indeed to be absorbed into one of the big European airline holding groups, and have most of its staff "outsourced", meaning it should be staffed by unionized employees that are aligned with the big holding companies and essentially remain "Italian" in name only. AZ has no chance of survival at this point. Unfortunately, no one wants to take on this toxic brew so we're likely looking at a situation similar to SN or SR and an entirely new company being born, much smaller, and years from now, if the house is cleaned up, rejoin a major global alliance.
 
OlympicATH
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:30 pm

eta unknown wrote:
Yes & no... what was left of Olympic that was privatized and sold to Aegean was nothing more than a commuter operation.


So you agree that OA was never technically shut down by the EU then. Also, you can't call that a "commuter operation".

Without getting into the technical details of the privatization, the new OA was only about 35% smaller than the state-owned carrier (which, if I remember correctly, was an EU condition for the privatization to go through). Long-haul routes were dropped but at that stage I believe it was only JFK, YUL/YYZ and JNB. The rest of the network was largely maintained and rebuilt over the first year or two.

Sorry for the off topic.
 
danipawa
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:59 pm

Airbus A319 -111 4859 EI-IMP Alitalia ferried 21apr21 PMO-CHR on return to lessor (+ 4875 EI-IMR, + 5130 EI-IMU FCO-CHR) ex D-AVWR

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=1
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:22 am

Alitalia staff have now not received their April salaries on time- don't know if they are still waiting for the second half of their March payments. The clock continues to run down on saving what will be left of AZ into the new ITA. AZ administrators and EU Brussels continue to clash on separating the ground handling and maintenance divisions, use of the AZ name (now for 2 years- have read AZ may act as a defacto GSA to sell the tickets), and up to 50% of LIN slots.
You'll need to translate from Italian:
https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2021/0 ... i/6179668/
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 13, 2021 10:52 pm

The European Commission cleared Italy to give 12.8 million euros (US $15.4 billion) in state aid to the floundering Alitalia airline to help it absorb the losses caused by the coronavirus pandemic.

“The European Commission has found that an Italian aid measure of 12.835 million euros to support Alitalia is in line with EU state aid rules,” said a commission statement.

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/alit ... ronavirus/

=

Long live Alitalia :spin:
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
artflyer
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri May 14, 2021 5:31 am

LAXintl wrote:
The European Commission cleared Italy to give 12.8 million euros (US $15.4 billion) in state aid to the floundering Alitalia airline to help it absorb the losses caused by the coronavirus pandemic.

“The European Commission has found that an Italian aid measure of 12.835 million euros to support Alitalia is in line with EU state aid rules,” said a commission statement.

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/alit ... ronavirus/

=

Long live Alitalia :spin:


Not 15.4 billion USD, but 15.4 million USD. I do not think Alitalia can live long on that particular chunk of money (although I wish them the best).

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