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eta unknown
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:50 pm

Ah yes, you're right about GVA- well spotted!
 
HighFlyerIT
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:32 am

eta unknown wrote:
IADFCO wrote:
- The LHR-LIN service may have to stop on 10/31 anyway, for "Brexit-related reasons" (the article doesn't say what those are).


The issue is LIN is traffic restricted to domestic & EU flights only- even Swiss can't operate there. Having said that, I don't know why BA & Easyjet are still operating UK-LIN flights or when they will be told to leave.
This has already been addressed by the government by allowing LIN-UK flights for another year:

https://milano.corriere.it/notizie/cron ... f289.shtml
 
na
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Alitalia has retired 2 777s

Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:54 pm

While Alitalia is ending its long and in the past two decades financially very bad career, its successor which likely will buy the brand about to start with part of the fleet, the first two 777s have been retired from the fleet, among them the sole 77W. The 77W will be leased by Russian (holiday) airline Azur Air which has grown its 77W fleet lately.

Source: Skyline-aviation.de
 
IADFCO
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:39 pm

https://www.corriere.it/economia/lavoro ... pale.shtml

Key points:
- The bidding process has started, to be completed by September 30.
- Initial request: 290M euros (the value of the "brand" has been estimated by outside consultants to be around 150M euros)
- Three phases: (i) 290M, (ii) after a week, request is lower (the article doesn't say by how much), (iii) after two weeks, open bid.
- Bids are open to all airlines, not just EU airlines.
 
IADFCO
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:42 pm

My previous post referred to the bid for the logo, maybe it wasn't clear.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Alitalia has retired 2 777s

Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:42 pm

na wrote:
While Alitalia is ending its long and in the past two decades financially very bad career, its successor which likely will buy the brand about to start with part of the fleet, the first two 777s have been retired from the fleet, among them the sole 77W. The 77W will be leased by Russian (holiday) airline Azur Air which has grown its 77W fleet lately.

Source: Skyline-aviation.de


That 77W has had an interesting history. It was previously operated by Air Austral and leased by AZ in September 2017, at a rate of something like $675,000 a month, and intended to fly FCO-JFK-FCO in the Northern Hemisphere Summer and FCO-GRU-FCO in the Southern Hemisphere Summer. It was supposed to be offloaded in 2020 but ended up being retained for cargo operations. The lease rates were so high because of AZ's shaky finances and long term prospects.
 
dcajet
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Re: Alitalia has retired 2 777s

Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:36 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
na wrote:
While Alitalia is ending its long and in the past two decades financially very bad career, its successor which likely will buy the brand about to start with part of the fleet, the first two 777s have been retired from the fleet, among them the sole 77W. The 77W will be leased by Russian (holiday) airline Azur Air which has grown its 77W fleet lately.

Source: Skyline-aviation.de


That 77W has had an interesting history. It was previously operated by Air Austral and leased by AZ in September 2017, at a rate of something like $675,000 a month, and intended to fly FCO-JFK-FCO in the Northern Hemisphere Summer and FCO-GRU-FCO in the Southern Hemisphere Summer. It was supposed to be offloaded in 2020 but ended up being retained for cargo operations. The lease rates were so high because of AZ's shaky finances and long term prospects.


Nit pick: the two main routes flown with this 77W were EZE and JFK, alternating between their peak seasons. GRU was also flown to, but IIRC, it was 3x to EZE and 1x w to GRU, daytime from FCO.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Alitalia has retired 2 777s

Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:34 pm

dcajet wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
na wrote:
While Alitalia is ending its long and in the past two decades financially very bad career, its successor which likely will buy the brand about to start with part of the fleet, the first two 777s have been retired from the fleet, among them the sole 77W. The 77W will be leased by Russian (holiday) airline Azur Air which has grown its 77W fleet lately.

Source: Skyline-aviation.de


That 77W has had an interesting history. It was previously operated by Air Austral and leased by AZ in September 2017, at a rate of something like $675,000 a month, and intended to fly FCO-JFK-FCO in the Northern Hemisphere Summer and FCO-GRU-FCO in the Southern Hemisphere Summer. It was supposed to be offloaded in 2020 but ended up being retained for cargo operations. The lease rates were so high because of AZ's shaky finances and long term prospects.


Nit pick: the two main routes flown with this 77W were EZE and JFK, alternating between their peak seasons. GRU was also flown to, but IIRC, it was 3x to EZE and 1x w to GRU, daytime from FCO.


You're right. EZE was served by that sole 77W and it alternated with GRU.
 
IADFCO
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:17 am

IADFCO wrote:
https://www.corriere.it/economia/lavoro/cards/alitalia-partita-gara-il-marchio-base-d-asta-290-milioni/cessione-nome_principale.shtml

Key points:
- The bidding process has started, to be completed by September 30.
- Initial request: 290M euros (the value of the "brand" has been estimated by outside consultants to be around 150M euros)
- Three phases: (i) 290M, (ii) after a week, request is lower (the article doesn't say by how much), (iii) after two weeks, open bid.
- Bids are open to all airlines, not just EU airlines.


https://www.ilmessaggero.it/economia/news/alitalia_marchio_flop_asta_ita_non_partecipa_cosa_succede-6216514.html

ITA is not participating to Phase I: 290M euros is too high. It's not clear from the article if nobody at all is bidding in Phase I, but it seems like it. The deadline for the auction, according to the article, is October 4.
 
dcajet
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:45 am

And here we were bidding Alitalia goodbye. The fools...

Weeks before its takeoff, ITA could be delayed, lengthening Alitalia's life until March, according to Milan's Corriere della Sera

https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziend ... a5ab.shtml
 
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Heavierthanair
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:50 pm

G'day

Seems the ITA has signed for 10 A 330-900, 11 A 320 series plus 7 A 220, they will lease 31 more from Air Lease Corp

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/airbu ... 1633020018

Well, lets see if that will materilize, after all that is Italy with its unions.. :stirthepot:

Cheers

Peter
 
Someone83
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:02 pm

Any idea what the 31 from ALC will be? Assume mostly A320neo with a few A220s?
 
AMP44
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:06 pm

The agreements total 84 new aircraft. 23 are long haul and 61 are short haul.

The Airbus order includes:

    - 10 A330neo
    - 11 A320neo
    - 7 A220

Also they will lease 31 from Air Lease Corporation:

    - 13 A350-900s
    - 18 Airbus short haul aircraft (Unspecified)

And finally 25 leased from five other leasing companies. They will be short haul, again between A220s and A320neo.

https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziend ... fe91.shtml


Looks like a very solid modern fleet.
Last edited by AMP44 on Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Heavierthanair
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:10 pm

G'day

Per Flightglobal it will be a little bit of everything, a pity the A 380 is no longer available :banghead:

quote: ITA adds that it will lease up to 56 new Airbuses over the course of its business plan, among them 13 long-haul types – the A350-900 included – and 43 short-haul models..unquote

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/italys-ita-outlines-airbus-driven-fleet-plan-including-a330neos-and-a350s/145719.article

Cheers

Peter
 
UA444
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:10 pm

Aren’t they rebranding as AZ anyway?
 
AMP44
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:21 pm

UA444 wrote:
Aren’t they rebranding as AZ anyway?

That's their plan (and 100% sure it will happen) but many like to pretend Alitalia is dead and ITA will not use/get the brand.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:30 pm

AMP44 wrote:
The agreements total 84 new aircraft. 23 are long haul and 61 are short haul.

The Airbus order includes:

    - 10 A330neo
    - 11 A320neo
    - 7 A220

Also they will lease 31 from Air Lease Corporation:

    - 13 A350-900s
    - 18 Airbus short haul aircraft (Unspecified)

And finally 25 leased from five other leasing companies. They will be short haul, again between A220s and A320neo.

https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziend ... fe91.shtml


Looks like a very solid modern fleet.


Looks like this is wrong. The ALC isn't 13 A359s and 18 short-haul; instead 5 A339s, 15 A220s, 2 A320neo, 9 A321neo.

Totals:
15 A339s
22 A220s
13 A320neos
9 A321neos
? A350

BUT, the ALC release states: "Overall, ITA will lease a total of 56 new Airbus aircraft over the course of the plan (13 long-haul jets, including the ultra-modern Airbus A350-900, and 43 short and medium-haul aircraft)." The total leased above is 31, so another 25 leases from somewhere?
 
DUSZRH
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:24 pm

Yes. So there are 8 more longhaul Aircraft. I would suppose most or all of them are A350s. And another 17 short haul aircraft (mainly 320s I suppose).
 
NorthTexAAs
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:59 pm

Honest question, and not meant to bash A330neo or A350... why the heck get a small number of both types, rather than capture the operational and training savings / simplicity from having a single long-haul aircraft type? Where in the world can ITA not go with an A330neo from Rome / Milan that justifies the complexity? Sydney, Santiago and Buenos Aires?
 
SA280
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:55 am

I have to reconsider everything I said before in this forum.

This new entity will be the very same old Alitalia. In few years they'll be in trouble again.
 
A320B737NGCapt
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:18 am

NorthTexAAs wrote:
Honest question, and not meant to bash A330neo or A350... why the heck get a small number of both types, rather than capture the operational and training savings / simplicity from having a single long-haul aircraft type? Where in the world can ITA not go with an A330neo from Rome / Milan that justifies the complexity? Sydney, Santiago and Buenos Aires?


I agree. They would be much better off with a fleet of A330neo, 15 A330-900 and 10 A330-800 would cover all their requirements.
 
Aither
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:33 am

Congratulations to ITA. It was needed to have a chance against their main competitors.

It's not a surprise to see both A330 and A350s. European airlines have a big capacity gap between the A330 and the A350. Their current A330s have only 260 seats. A350s should have more than 320 seats I guess.
The price is also quite different. And they have come commonalities.
 
FatCat
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:41 am

LOL they will not get any of those planes ever.
ITA will be bankrupt before xmas
 
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Polot
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:47 am

Aither wrote:
Congratulations to ITA. It was needed to have a chance against their main competitors.

It's not a surprise to see both A330 and A350s. European airlines have a big capacity gap between the A330 and the A350. Their current A330s have only 260 seats. A350s should have more than 320 seats I guess.
The price is also quite different. And they have come commonalities.

AZ’s current A330s are -200s and not the larger -300 equal in size to the -900s in the MOU. I imagine the neos will seat around 300 pax like AZ’s 77Es.

As to why the split-availability may be a factor. A lessor might not have the number of desired A330neos available to lease and may be unwilling to order more for ITA. We also don’t know if all those A350s are actually going to be new builds or if some/all are used planes being rehomed (which means better deal for ITA).
 
Scotron12
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:27 pm

Whatever! An order is an order...especially in these crazy times

Congrats to AIRBUS and ITA.

Rgds
 
Breathe
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:32 pm

SA280 wrote:
I have to reconsider everything I said before in this forum.

This new entity will be the very same old Alitalia. In few years they'll be in trouble again.

Going by historical precedence, sadly you may be right with your prediction. Just to try add some positivity though, won't the new airline be starting with a much leaner workforce and essentially be free of all the legacy issues from the "old" Alitalia to possibly make a success or will Alitalia forever be trying to flog a dead horse?
 
sxf24
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:36 pm

Polot wrote:
Aither wrote:
Congratulations to ITA. It was needed to have a chance against their main competitors.

It's not a surprise to see both A330 and A350s. European airlines have a big capacity gap between the A330 and the A350. Their current A330s have only 260 seats. A350s should have more than 320 seats I guess.
The price is also quite different. And they have come commonalities.

AZ’s current A330s are -200s and not the larger -300 equal in size to the -900s in the MOU. I imagine the neos will seat around 300 pax like AZ’s 77Es.

As to why the split-availability may be a factor. A lessor might not have the number of desired A330neos available to lease and may be unwilling to order more for ITA. We also don’t know if all those A350s are actually going to be new builds or if some/all are used planes being rehomed (which means better deal for ITA).


Availability is not a factor. Lessors have any and all A330neos that ITA could want.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:14 pm

The leased A350s may be some of the aircraft which were returned by some less fortunate airlines, like LATAM, Air Mauritius, HNA group, South African... I believe Delta picked some of LATAM's A350s but not all, correct? ITA said they were hunting for bargain leases, I believe this was more important than fleet commonality.
 
Breathe
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:18 pm

frigatebird wrote:
The leased A350s may be some of the aircraft which were returned by some less fortunate airlines, like LATAM, Air Mauritius, HNA group, South African... I believe Delta picked some of LATAM's A350s but not all, correct? ITA said they were hunting for bargain leases, I believe this was more important than fleet commonality.

As far as I'm aware, Air Mauritius are still operating the two A350s leased from AerCap. The airline is also coming out of administration:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1445001&p=22976483#p22976483
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:44 pm

frigatebird wrote:
The leased A350s may be some of the aircraft which were returned by some less fortunate airlines, like LATAM, Air Mauritius, HNA group, South African... I believe Delta picked some of LATAM's A350s but not all, correct? ITA said they were hunting for bargain leases, I believe this was more important than fleet commonality.


While there is a glut of aircraft, particularly wide body types, available, given the industry's prolonged downturn owing to the pandemic, bargain leases will be a high hurdle for ITA given its cloudy credit rating (meaning, it's not entirely clear what that rating will look like). AZ has poor credit rating which is part of the reason why its aircraft leases, including that 77W, were so high
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:55 pm

frigatebird wrote:
The leased A350s may be some of the aircraft which were returned by some less fortunate airlines, like LATAM, Air Mauritius, HNA group, South African... I believe Delta picked some of LATAM's A350s but not all, correct? ITA said they were hunting for bargain leases, I believe this was more important than fleet commonality.


A highly fragmented fleet at what is going to be a small carrier is going to have burdens on efficiency. Lousy utilization. Poor labor efficiency. This was the best chance to develop a productive carrier in two decades, and they blew it.
 
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Polot
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:56 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
The leased A350s may be some of the aircraft which were returned by some less fortunate airlines, like LATAM, Air Mauritius, HNA group, South African... I believe Delta picked some of LATAM's A350s but not all, correct? ITA said they were hunting for bargain leases, I believe this was more important than fleet commonality.


While there is a glut of aircraft, particularly wide body types, available, given the industry's prolonged downturn owing to the pandemic, bargain leases will be a high hurdle for ITA given its cloudy credit rating (meaning, it's not entirely clear what that rating will look like). AZ has poor credit rating which is part of the reason why its aircraft leases, including that 77W, were so high

It’s all relative. Even ITA’s lease rates now will be lower that would they could get in normal times (hence why signing deals now). But they will be higher than what some other airlines can currently get.
 
AirDO
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:57 pm

Will the upcoming Airbus order replaced AZ existing fleet?
 
flyforever
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:35 pm

FatCat wrote:
LOL they will not get any of those planes ever.
ITA will be bankrupt before xmas


Alitalia never failed for bankruptcy in the last 20 years. I strongly doubt it it will in the next three months. They always get to a point where the company is so bad that they split the good part an the debts. The good part is sold to private investors, the debts are given to Italians. It's a vicious circle.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:55 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
The leased A350s may be some of the aircraft which were returned by some less fortunate airlines, like LATAM, Air Mauritius, HNA group, South African... I believe Delta picked some of LATAM's A350s but not all, correct? ITA said they were hunting for bargain leases, I believe this was more important than fleet commonality.


A highly fragmented fleet at what is going to be a small carrier is going to have burdens on efficiency. Lousy utilization. Poor labor efficiency. This was the best chance to develop a productive carrier in two decades, and they blew it.


Oh I certainly agree. Long term vision wasn’t the best Alitalia’s best characteristic, and doesn’t seem to be ITA’s strong point either. Too many different aircraft types, IMO just A32x and A330 would have been smarter. The A320 isn’t that more expensive to operate vs the A220, and the A339 really isn’t lacking that much range.
 
Prost
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:18 pm

Aither wrote:
Congratulations to ITA. It was needed to have a chance against their main competitors.

It's not a surprise to see both A330 and A350s. European airlines have a big capacity gap between the A330 and the A350. Their current A330s have only 260 seats. A350s should have more than 320 seats I guess.
The price is also quite different. And they have come commonalities.


I know for DL the capacity gap is only 26 seats, so for a fresh start airline like ITA it’s kind of surprising to me to have both planes in a small fleet. I would think the A350 would future proof themselves and offer the best flexibility for route planning.
 
TFFIP
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:41 pm

Maybe I missed the link but how is Alitalia different from maybe Swissair, Sabena, Pan Am(?) in the sale of the name.
I understood that eg Crossair could not use Swissair, it had to be a new brand. Could American Airlines sell the TWA name?
I hope ITA comes to a good price all the same. Alitalia is somehow emotionally different from many others.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:16 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
The leased A350s may be some of the aircraft which were returned by some less fortunate airlines, like LATAM, Air Mauritius, HNA group, South African... I believe Delta picked some of LATAM's A350s but not all, correct? ITA said they were hunting for bargain leases, I believe this was more important than fleet commonality.


A highly fragmented fleet at what is going to be a small carrier is going to have burdens on efficiency. Lousy utilization. Poor labor efficiency. This was the best chance to develop a productive carrier in two decades, and they blew it.


I agree.
Some used 32X aircraft and some used A330's would be fine for their purposes.
I would argue that none of their routes are long enough to where the operating efficiency of the newer models will overtake the much lower ownership costs of the older models. No need to have so many differnt models such a small fleet.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:27 am

TFFIP wrote:
Maybe I missed the link but how is Alitalia different from maybe Swissair, Sabena, Pan Am(?) in the sale of the name.
I understood that eg Crossair could not use Swissair, it had to be a new brand. Could American Airlines sell the TWA name?
I hope ITA comes to a good price all the same. Alitalia is somehow emotionally different from many others.


EU corporate laws, unlike in the US, do not allow a bankrupt company to be reincarnated with the same name. That's why the AZ brand and logo are all up for sale in theory, to spark bidding. Swissair as a brand and name died when the company shut down. Crossair (which used code LX) wasn't global enough so the company was renamed SWISS.

Alitalia is emotionally different for some in Italy, and yes, it is iconic and synonymous with Italy's post-WWII rebirth but if it was that extraordinary a brand, there would be a bidding war for it. ITA will end up flying as Alitalia and will look very much the same as its predecessor.

TWA is a bit different. It became TWA Airlines LLC for an interim period until it was dissolved and on 12/01/01, everything became AA under a SOC. I think AA retains some brand ownership on the TWA mark, but I may be wrong on that.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:32 am

AirDO wrote:
Will the upcoming Airbus order replaced AZ existing fleet?


A lot of it, yes by the looks of this wildly optimistic order. All the A330s except 1 are leased. AZ owns 1 777 I think. The A320s and A319s are older models and likely on very high lease rates given AZ's financial condition. The 777s themselves are roughly 18-20 years old. The were acquired in 2002-2003 after AZ swapped them in for an original order of 747-400s, which went to Virgin Atlantic.
 
HighFlyerIT
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:03 am

NorthTexAAs wrote:
Honest question, and not meant to bash A330neo or A350... why the heck get a small number of both types, rather than capture the operational and training savings / simplicity from having a single long-haul aircraft type? Where in the world can ITA not go with an A330neo from Rome / Milan that justifies the complexity? Sydney, Santiago and Buenos Aires?
I guess one of the reasons could be cargo capacity. MXP is one of the main European cargo hubs, basing some (most?) of the A350s there to exploit the cargo market while keeping all the A330s at FCO where they're already operating them would make sense.
 
AMP44
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:44 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
TFFIP wrote:
Maybe I missed the link but how is Alitalia different from maybe Swissair, Sabena, Pan Am(?) in the sale of the name.
I understood that eg Crossair could not use Swissair, it had to be a new brand. Could American Airlines sell the TWA name?
I hope ITA comes to a good price all the same. Alitalia is somehow emotionally different from many others.


EU corporate laws, unlike in the US, do not allow a bankrupt company to be reincarnated with the same name. That's why the AZ brand and logo are all up for sale in theory, to spark bidding. Swissair as a brand and name died when the company shut down. Crossair (which used code LX) wasn't global enough so the company was renamed SWISS.

Alitalia is emotionally different for some in Italy, and yes, it is iconic and synonymous with Italy's post-WWII rebirth but if it was that extraordinary a brand, there would be a bidding war for it. ITA will end up flying as Alitalia and will look very much the same as its predecessor.

TWA is a bit different. It became TWA Airlines LLC for an interim period until it was dissolved and on 12/01/01, everything became AA under a SOC. I think AA retains some brand ownership on the TWA mark, but I may be wrong on that.

A note about Swissair: Swiss acquired the Swissair brand in 2009 from the Swissair bankruptcy estate. The trademark must be actively used so that the rights do not expire, so it's been used by a small flight club to keep it active.

I don't think there's any big difference between the Alitalia brand and any other brand from a bankrupt company. As an asset, it's sold and whoever gets it can do whatever they wish with it, or it simply becomes available to others to grab.

    - "Sabena" is now owned and used by Sabena Aerospace Engineering (Part of the original Sabena).
    - "Pan American World Airways" was purchased right after the bankruptcy, then sold to a railway company and now holds the rights
    - From what I can find about TWA, "Trans World Airlines" was trademarked until January 6, 2020 and now is abandoned. "TWA" is still active and owned by AA.
 
JA
Posts: 228
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:25 am

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:16 pm

How many people work at Alitalia Cityliner currently?

I don't buy that the Embraer aircraft aren't useful. They allow frequency to be added to smaller markets and that increases pricing power.
 
AMP44
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:01 pm

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:44 pm

Alitalia: the auction for the sale of the historic brand for 290 million euros ends with no bids

http://www.rainews.it/dl/rainews/artico ... 25dc2.html


From another article, about the brand auction and Alitalia employee salaries:
For Alitalia employees, the timing of the sale of the brand is of particular importance, since on 27 September they received only half of their salary. Instead of the remaining amount, a communication informing that "the salaries of the current month will be adjusted at 50% with value on Monday 27 September, while the remaining 50% will be credited to you as soon as we have evidence of the outcome of the Alitalia brand announcement"

http://www.rainews.it/dl/rainews/artico ... 2e14d.html
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 25622
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:55 pm

They loaded flights to the US

FCO-JFK eff 04NOV21
FCO-MIA eff 01MAR22
MXP-JFK eff 02MAR22
FCO-BOS eff 02MAR22
FCO-LAX eff 01JUN22

https://www.itaspa.com/content/itaspa/i ... ights.html
 
FatCat
Posts: 1040
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:06 am

flyforever wrote:
FatCat wrote:
LOL they will not get any of those planes ever.
ITA will be bankrupt before xmas


Alitalia never failed for bankruptcy in the last 20 years. I strongly doubt it it will in the next three months. They always get to a point where the company is so bad that they split the good part an the debts. The good part is sold to private investors, the debts are given to Italians. It's a vicious circle.

Hi FlyForever,
Yes it is how it works. Done several times.
They split the Company in two: good and bad Company.
The good keeps the assets (material and non-material)
The bad keeps the debts and fails.
The good then continues to operate. Thanks to this game, you can submit new, most of times pejorative, contracts to the employees.
Last time they created two Companies, the good one received € 900M from the Government in a loan that has been condemned by the EU Commission as illegal.
(Those are taxpayers' money, that means that every adult, child, man, woman, granpa and granma in Italy own € 15,- of Alitalia)
Now Alitalia will fail and close (it is currently in Amministrazione Controllata - controlled administration, something like Chapter 11, but not very similar) and the assets will be sold to pay the debts.
Legally, "bad" Alitalia has to pay the € 900M back to the Gov't, in fact, they expect to sell the "Alitalia" trademark for something like € 206M / € 260M - the first invitation to offer for it was deserted, now they are accepting bids, by the way, it is a bid race made without any sense, ITA will have to buy the trademark, and they will buy it for a ridicolous low price.
Funny thing is that ITA is indeed a Government - held Company, and if the EU goes serious with the € 900M payback, a Gov't Company has to pay a debt to the Government itself - taking out the money from the left pocket and putting in the right pocket.

Regarding the new fleet, it's nice talk and enthusiasts talk but it's not true talk. They will never arrive. Airbus will never ever start to assemble one of those planes, I bet my shoes on.
I'll tell you how it will go:
Day 0 ITA will start managing the flights
Day 30 employees on strike
Day 35 unions will leave the table, strike continues
Day 45 routes will be cut
Day 60 some managers will leave the Company
Day 65 IT Gvt gives a loan to let the plane fly
Day 70 ITA will declare bankruptcy
and we will start the circle again and again and again
 
na
Posts: 9877
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:46 am

That fleet plan seems overambitious. It involves "scrapping" the whole Alitalia fleet, and in the case of the 77Es and some other planes not only literally.
That the Alitalia brand auction failed, is no surprise at all. That name, although emotionally positive in its core, is a symbol of economical failure, not a good sign to start a new company under that name.
 
TUGMASTER
Posts: 1486
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:56 pm

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:00 pm

LAXintl wrote:
They loaded flights to the US

FCO-JFK eff 04NOV21
FCO-MIA eff 01MAR22
MXP-JFK eff 02MAR22
FCO-BOS eff 02MAR22
FCO-LAX eff 01JUN22

https://www.itaspa.com/content/itaspa/i ... ights.html



And this is how they lose money..!!!
FCO-JFK currently €393 rtn
GOA-MXP/FCO-JFK currently €353
Extra sectors but €40 euros cheaper.so there is no way the Domestic sectors can make a penny.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2806
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:45 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
Extra sectors but €40 euros cheaper.so there is no way the Domestic sectors can make a penny.

Not too unusual for EU carriers, and I believe even worldwide. Nonstop flights can demand a premium. Fares are not simply a sum of the individual legs, but solely depend on what passengers are willing to pay.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:45 am

Please limit quotes from links to fair use excerpts.

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