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factsonly
Posts: 3197
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:02 am

Talk about wasting AZ money!!

08-OCT-2021:

The first of six AZ E175 was returned to its lessor this morning and flew FCO-ENS for storage, however.................

...due to fog at ENS - Twente Airport in the Netherlands - the aircraft held above Munster for a long time and made one apporach to ENS, before diverting all the way back to FCO:

- AZ8035 FCO-ENS E175 EI-RDF diverted to FCO

That is 4hrs35min of flying for nothing!!

- https://www.flightradar24.com/AZA8035/296d5821
 
jsfr
Posts: 119
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:35 pm

FatCat wrote:
flyforever wrote:
FatCat wrote:
Day 0 ITA will start managing the flights
Day 30 employees on strike
Day 35 unions will leave the table, strike continues
Day 45 routes will be cut
Day 60 some managers will leave the Company
Day 65 IT Gvt gives a loan to let the plane fly
Day 70 ITA will declare bankruptcy
and we will start the circle again and again and again


One item I have seen discussed and which could be even more critical to their success than fleet planning is labour (as that is what has primarily been politically motivated in the past and really thrown them in the gutter in the past.

Pilot crews seem to have vastly improved in the past decade, however the cabin crews are still extremely unionised. The (remaining) ground/"service" agents are amongst the worst in the world both from the impossible unions and also from customer attitudes that are absolutely awful...

If ITA is given the chance to choose the (few) young, motivated, dynamic, positive and (often) cheaper employees, they may well have a chance.
If the government looks at politics as usual and makes them keep the old, unionised, inefficient, customer-hating, self-entitled Alitalia employees of the past, then you're right, I give them three months until first diffi;lties which will then drag out for five years of bail-outs and negotiations before again being split and sold....
 
factsonly
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Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:12 am

factsonly wrote:
Talk about wasting AZ money!!

08-OCT-2021:

The first of six AZ E175 was returned to its lessor this morning and flew FCO-ENS for storage, however.................

...due to fog at ENS - Twente Airport in the Netherlands - the aircraft held above Munster for a long time and made one apporach to ENS, before diverting all the way back to FCO:

- AZ8035 FCO-ENS E175 EI-RDF diverted to FCO

That is 4hrs35min of flying for nothing!!

- https://www.flightradar24.com/AZA8035/296d5821


And....this morning October 9th, 2021 AZ is trying it once again !!

- AZ8036 FCO-ENS E175 EI-RDF is once again holding over Munster, due to early morning fog at ENS.

https://www.flightradar24.com/AZA8036/29707f22
 
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CarbonFibre
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:42 am

Why keep going if they know it's foggy?
 
factsonly
Posts: 3197
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:48 am

CarbonFibre wrote:
Why keep going if they know it's foggy?


Well,........finally they managed to get into ENS, but....... after holding for 2 hours at 20.000ft near Munster:

- FCO 06.22 - ENS 10.38 AZ8036 E175 EI-RDF Flying time 4hrs:16min

That's a total flight time of 8hrs 51min. for a sector that has 2hrs.17min as scheduled flying time.

Hopefully ITA improves its ops. planning !!

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ei-rdf
 
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VHTAE
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:58 am

Will the new ITA use the AZ airline code?
 
A359bw
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:56 am

yes

AZ / ITY - Callsign ITARROW
 
USAirALB
Posts: 2715
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:46 am

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:40 pm

LAXintl wrote:
They loaded flights to the US

FCO-JFK eff 04NOV21
FCO-MIA eff 01MAR22
MXP-JFK eff 02MAR22
FCO-BOS eff 02MAR22
FCO-LAX eff 01JUN22

https://www.itaspa.com/content/itaspa/i ... ights.html

I'm guessing they dropped plans to serve IAD? IAD was formerly listed as a planned destination on their website to start in March 2022, and it looks like all references to IAD have been removed.
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:44 pm

Correct me if I’m wrong ,but wasn’t a merger between Air One and the then basket case Alitalia around 12 years ago meant to be the great saviour of AZ. ..?? I fear ITA ( stupid name) will go the same way. There are enough LCC carriers to look after Italy, and for the few Long Haul services they plan, they can be covered by metal originating for the other end. Too much Italian pride in crazy ideas/ideals.
 
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VHTAE
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:06 pm

A359bw wrote:
yes

AZ / ITY - Callsign ITARROW


Thank you.

So it’s goodbye to:

ICAO: AZA
Callsign: Alitalia

Thanks for the memories.
 
AMP44
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:01 pm

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:53 pm

VHTAE wrote:
A359bw wrote:
yes

AZ / ITY - Callsign ITARROW


Thank you.

So it’s goodbye to:

ICAO: AZA
Callsign: Alitalia

Thanks for the memories.

Not so fast. Here's some news:

Ita will use the Alitalia brand, there is an agreement
Agreement reached between the Alitalia commissioners and the new company: it will have a temporary value, pending the conclusion of the auction for the sale of the brand.

ITA will be able to temporarily use the Alitalia brand , the same uniforms as the personnel, the livery of the aircraft, with signs and insignias with the Alitalia name in airports all over the world. The new Italian airline has reached an agreement with the Alitalia commissioners: as mentioned, this is a temporary solution , which will therefore be valid for a few weeks, pending the auction for the sale of the brand to conclude with a different outcome from that registered in the past few days, when no offer was made considering the exaggeratedly high starting price.

https://www.formulapassion.it/automoto/ ... 88100.html

Seems to be an agreement done after some comments ITA management had on Corriere della Sera yesterday:

ITA, Lazzerini: "Ready to take off, on October 15 we will know if we will be called Alitalia
In any case, «we did what we had to do - explains Lazzerini -, we can't say what, but we did something, we made our decisions. The dates of the tender decision on the brand are close to our departure and we did not agree with the initial price », the CEO of Ita reasons. "Tomorrow (Sunday 10 October, ed) we begin to communicate with the company's announcement - he anticipates -, we are forced to start with a video without a brand because we still don't know what we will call ourselves, you will know it on October 15th »

https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziend ... 7086.shtml

While ITA does have the callsign ITARROW and ITY code, I suspect an agreement with Alitalia would include AZ, AZA and the 'Alitalia' callsign.
 
Westerwaelder
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:44 am

Is there anyone who really doubts ITA will acquire the Alitalia name and everything that goes with it? The way the auction is set up leads to only one outcome: Alitalia being sold off to satisfy EU conditions on paper and ITA paying a paltry sum for it to avoid having to launch a new brand. In a few months time, we will be where we always were
 
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VHTAE
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:48 am

AMP44 wrote:
VHTAE wrote:
A359bw wrote:
yes

AZ / ITY - Callsign ITARROW


Thank you.

So it’s goodbye to:

ICAO: AZA
Callsign: Alitalia

Thanks for the memories.

Not so fast. Here's some news:

Ita will use the Alitalia brand, there is an agreement
Agreement reached between the Alitalia commissioners and the new company: it will have a temporary value, pending the conclusion of the auction for the sale of the brand.

ITA will be able to temporarily use the Alitalia brand , the same uniforms as the personnel, the livery of the aircraft, with signs and insignias with the Alitalia name in airports all over the world. The new Italian airline has reached an agreement with the Alitalia commissioners: as mentioned, this is a temporary solution , which will therefore be valid for a few weeks, pending the auction for the sale of the brand to conclude with a different outcome from that registered in the past few days, when no offer was made considering the exaggeratedly high starting price.

https://www.formulapassion.it/automoto/ ... 88100.html

Seems to be an agreement done after some comments ITA management had on Corriere della Sera yesterday:

ITA, Lazzerini: "Ready to take off, on October 15 we will know if we will be called Alitalia
In any case, «we did what we had to do - explains Lazzerini -, we can't say what, but we did something, we made our decisions. The dates of the tender decision on the brand are close to our departure and we did not agree with the initial price », the CEO of Ita reasons. "Tomorrow (Sunday 10 October, ed) we begin to communicate with the company's announcement - he anticipates -, we are forced to start with a video without a brand because we still don't know what we will call ourselves, you will know it on October 15th »

https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziend ... 7086.shtml

While ITA does have the callsign ITARROW and ITY code, I suspect an agreement with Alitalia would include AZ, AZA and the 'Alitalia' callsign.


Thanks for the update. The saga continues...
 
Capricorn
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:31 am

TUGMASTER wrote:
Correct me if I’m wrong ,but wasn’t a merger between Air One and the then basket case Alitalia around 12 years ago meant to be the great saviour of AZ. ..?? I fear ITA ( stupid name) will go the same way. There are enough LCC carriers to look after Italy, and for the few Long Haul services they plan, they can be covered by metal originating for the other end. Too much Italian pride in crazy ideas/ideals.


I am really interested in the current reset of AZ. I still don't see them being successful. Especially since Italy is well covered by LCCs. But the current restructuring also might show away forward for smaller legacy carrier not being part of a larger group (IAG, LHG). In many parts of the world legacies still offering long haul service struggle against LCCs and more of them have become unprofitable. This problem is especially manifested in the developing world. So in the long run, will the concept of a small niche carrier with service to selected business and long haul markets work, or is joining LHG, IAG & AFKL the only way out for AZ?
 
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Polot
Posts: 12424
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:12 am

Capricorn wrote:
So in the long run, will the concept of a small niche carrier with service to selected business and long haul markets work, or is joining LHG, IAG & AFKL the only way out for AZ?

This isn’t a new concept, and ITA’s wide body deals show they have no intention of staying a small niche carrier in select long haul markets.
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:52 am

The only thing small about ITA will be their time in charge. I expect them to follow the usual AZ route to the toilets.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4911
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:10 pm

Polot wrote:
Capricorn wrote:
So in the long run, will the concept of a small niche carrier with service to selected business and long haul markets work, or is joining LHG, IAG & AFKL the only way out for AZ?

This isn’t a new concept, and ITA’s wide body deals show they have no intention of staying a small niche carrier in select long haul markets.


But the thing is, AZ has been a small, niche carrier in long haul markets, expanding and contracting them for the better part of the last 3 decades. The only routes that make money for AZ are JFK, BOS, MIA, and perhaps EZE which is why the first 3 are part of the relaunch, plus NRT, which has always been served as well. The ICN, SCL, HAV routes were a complete failure. AZ has not been able to make India work, outside of cargo, and the rest of its long haul network efforts have been spitballs (IAD, SFO). At one time AZ served ORD. LAX was pretty much seasonal. That's about it. The aircraft order reflects a few things the new company is confronted with. High leases on all but the one 330 it owns, the aging 772s, and the need for a streamlined, efficient fleet. Best of luck to them. They have great food, and a lovely premium cabin experience, but the company has been a train wreck almost since inception.
 
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Putnik
Posts: 111
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:23 pm

They didn't even change the flight numbers. This tiny little effort could be a token sign of the promise of change in their business model.
When they get "dressed" in Alitalia from head to toe, who in the right mind would believe that this new AZ reincarnation would have a future brighter than all other Alitalias before?
 
asuflyer
Posts: 790
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:48 pm

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:15 pm

The first aircraft for ITA EI-EIB Ex-Alitalia has left the IAC paint shop in Shannon.

Image

https://twitter.com/AndythePandy_/statu ... 1172627465
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4911
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:47 pm

asuflyer wrote:
The first aircraft for ITA EI-EIB Ex-Alitalia has left the IAC paint shop in Shannon.

Image

https://twitter.com/AndythePandy_/statu ... 1172627465


That is really ugly.
 
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Polot
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:51 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
asuflyer wrote:
The first aircraft for ITA EI-EIB Ex-Alitalia has left the IAC paint shop in Shannon.

Image

https://twitter.com/AndythePandy_/statu ... 1172627465


That is really ugly.

Standard they can’t use AZ branding yet but plan to so cheap and generic that will still work after AZ branding for interim
 
AMP44
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:01 pm

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:19 pm

Polot wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
asuflyer wrote:
The first aircraft for ITA EI-EIB Ex-Alitalia has left the IAC paint shop in Shannon.

Image

https://twitter.com/AndythePandy_/statu ... 1172627465


That is really ugly.

Standard they can’t use AZ branding yet but plan to so cheap and generic that will still work after AZ branding for interim

They are trying to avoid paying several hundred thousand Euros to a creative agency for a brand identity they will never use.

They posted the livery on the website too a few days ago. Terrible livery, but gets the point across. Most likely 'designed' in a few minutes by some employee.

Image
https://www.itaspa.com/content/itaspa/i ... ffers.html
 
A330Inter
Posts: 182
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:19 pm

Might as well have kept it all white, save on the paint cost and flying (unless aircraft was already in SNN.... still)
 
lajaca
Posts: 9
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:10 am

Curious. Why not in Italian…?
 
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Garuda200
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:33 am

4 days to go

Can't believe it

there goes another historic European name
 
factsonly
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:50 am

Another E175 EI-RDN is returned to lessor Nordic Capital Aviation:

- AZ8037 FCO 09.41 - ENS 11.46 E175 EI-RDN Alitalia CityLiner

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ei-rdn

(note the departure ex-FCO has been put back by 3 hours to avoid possible fog at ENS!!)
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:12 am

jsfr wrote:

If ITA is given the chance to choose the (few) young, motivated, dynamic, positive and (often) cheaper employees, they may well have a chance.
If the government looks at politics as usual and makes them keep the old, unionised, inefficient, customer-hating, self-entitled Alitalia employees of the past...


Two references to age - that's unfortunate. You're decades out of date regarding EU (and U.S.) prohibitions on age discrimination in employment.

Attitudes - customer hating, self-entitled - are subjective. I'm more interested in first year financials to see if they have improved productivity measures relative to successful European carriers, like ASKs per full-time equivalent employee, or revenue per employee.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:30 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
jsfr wrote:

If ITA is given the chance to choose the (few) young, motivated, dynamic, positive and (often) cheaper employees, they may well have a chance.
If the government looks at politics as usual and makes them keep the old, unionised, inefficient, customer-hating, self-entitled Alitalia employees of the past...


Two references to age - that's unfortunate. You're decades out of date regarding EU (and U.S.) prohibitions on age discrimination in employment.

Attitudes - customer hating, self-entitled - are subjective. I'm more interested in first year financials to see if they have improved productivity measures relative to successful European carriers, like ASKs per full-time equivalent employee, or revenue per employee.


Truly outdated statement and comment regarding age and employment for sure, and an uneducated assessment. The issue with AZ has always been its employees though. As recently as 2017 or 2018, they had an opportunity to participate in the development of a new carrier and refused it, as Etihad walked away. But it goes much further back than that. Italy's powerful (too powerful) trade unions are to blame. Th
 
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CarbonFibre
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:32 am

Born in 2021....bankrupt in 2022.
 
factsonly
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Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:55 am

factsonly wrote:
Another E175 EI-RDN is returned to lessor Nordic Capital Aviation:

- AZ8037 FCO 09.41 - ENS 11.46 E175 EI-RDN Alitalia CityLiner

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ei-rdn

(note the departure ex-FCO has been put back by 3 hours to avoid possible fog at ENS!!)


AZ is parking more Embraer 175's at this moment:

- 07 Oct 2021 FCO - Bydgoszcz (BZG) AZ8031 E175 EI-RDE
- 10 Oct 2021 FCO - Bydgoszcz (BZG) AZ8038 E175 EI-RDD
- 11 Oct 2021 FCO - Enschede (ENS) AZ8036 E175 EI-RDG
 
steman
Posts: 1677
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:15 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
jsfr wrote:

If ITA is given the chance to choose the (few) young, motivated, dynamic, positive and (often) cheaper employees, they may well have a chance.
If the government looks at politics as usual and makes them keep the old, unionised, inefficient, customer-hating, self-entitled Alitalia employees of the past...


Two references to age - that's unfortunate. You're decades out of date regarding EU (and U.S.) prohibitions on age discrimination in employment.

Attitudes - customer hating, self-entitled - are subjective. I'm more interested in first year financials to see if they have improved productivity measures relative to successful European carriers, like ASKs per full-time equivalent employee, or revenue per employee.


Truly outdated statement and comment regarding age and employment for sure, and an uneducated assessment. The issue with AZ has always been its employees though. As recently as 2017 or 2018, they had an opportunity to participate in the development of a new carrier and refused it, as Etihad walked away. But it goes much further back than that. Italy's powerful (too powerful) trade unions are to blame. Th


While the Unions definitely carry part of the blame, they are not the only responsible for the abismal history of Alitalia. Management played an important part too. Alitalia´s history is full of shortsighted decisions. On the Fleet for example. They ordered 8 DC10-30 only to get rid of them within few years as a knee-jerk reaction to the infamous accidents of the 70s (of which the model was not responsible). They didn´t even replace them with other models and left the long haul fleet in the hand of a few Boeing 747s, while competing airines ketp their DC10s and grew their presence on the world markets.
They ordered 18 B727-200Adv late, when the model was not that modern anymore and retired them quickly, replacing them with MD80s.
They got 6 Fokker 70 of the 15 originally ordered before the manufacturere went bankrupt and got rid of them quickly instead of trying to get a few more on the used market.
They were launch customers of the E170, got rid of them after few years and ordered them again, though in the form of E175 and E190.
When it was time to expand on the intercontinental market after the european deregulation, they had a small and disomogeneous fleet of wet leased 763, only 5 full pax MD11 and the only 3 ever built (I wonder why) MD11 Combi and a few left over B747-200.

More recently, they got 1 (one!) B777-300ER. Not even enough to cover one route daily, while competitors were flying tens of the model.

And politics always played a major role in Alitalia. The company has always been managed as a political tool rather than an airline. It has always been a reservoir of favours and votes in a system of political clientele.
Not to mention the changing hub from FCO to MXP back to FCO for an airline than never had the critical mass to sustain even one hub.

Italy has many excellent examples of successful multinational companies, not all of them private. But somehow on the civil aviation side, the Country never managed to create a company which could actually compete with its peers and it has almost always need the finanacial support of the State.
 
AMP44
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:30 pm

ITA prepares for take-off with the Alitalia brand
The airline will fly with the old brand in the tail: it is not possible to repaint all planes before Friday.

The Alitalia brand will continue to fly over the next few days. There is still no official confirmation, but the tricolor tail of the planes could be ITA's business card. For two reasons. The first is that ITA will use from Friday 52 planes arriving from the Alitalia fleet, with which it has concluded a contract for the acquisition of the “aviation” branch. The second reason is linked to an alleged agreement between ITA and Alitalia for a temporary use of the trademark, reached pending the auction for the sale to conclude with a different outcome from that recorded in the past few days, when no offer has been submitted.
...
An important part of the Alitalia dispute is linked to the progress of this tender: employees' salaries in September were paid at 50%. The second half will come only after the sale of the brand.
...
The provisional use of the trademark by ITA, if confirmed, will allow the them to save hundreds of millions of euros. Suffice it to say that the replacement of all the signs in the airports alone would cost around 80 million euros.

https://www.unionesarda.it/economia/ita ... a-htambw2z
 
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Heavierthanair
Posts: 1003
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:50 pm

G'day

Here we go again :banghead:

https://www.alitalia.com/it_it/volare-alitalia/news-e-attivita/news/info-sciopero-11-ottobre.html

I wonder what kind of concessions the unions expect from an airline that supposedly has some 3 days of life left? :crazy: Unless of course the unions expect all will go on as before, which is most likely what is going to happen. For the time being they have changed the name, but I doubt they will even change the Alitalia letterhead.

CarbonFibre wrote:
Born in 2021....bankrupt in 2022.


I take it you are an optimist - OK, I realize 2021 is almost over, so you are likely right :checkmark: I would love these comments to be sarcastic, but likely thats what will happen, let's look at this again a few months from now. Also I doubt Airbus has popped the Champagne yet :twocents:

Cheers

Peter
 
rj777
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:12 pm

I think they know what they're going to be called.... they're just acting like they don't to surprise everyone. I mean you can't come up with (and install) airport signage, etc. in just 3 days!
 
jsfr
Posts: 119
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:48 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
jsfr wrote:

If ITA is given the chance to choose the (few) young, motivated, dynamic, positive and (often) cheaper employees, they may well have a chance.
If the government looks at politics as usual and makes them keep the old, unionised, inefficient, customer-hating, self-entitled Alitalia employees of the past...


Two references to age - that's unfortunate. You're decades out of date regarding EU (and U.S.) prohibitions on age discrimination in employment.

Attitudes - customer hating, self-entitled - are subjective. I'm more interested in first year financials to see if they have improved productivity measures relative to successful European carriers, like ASKs per full-time equivalent employee, or revenue per employee.


Truly outdated statement and comment regarding age and employment for sure, and an uneducated assessment. The issue with AZ has always been its employees though. As recently as 2017 or 2018, they had an opportunity to participate in the development of a new carrier and refused it, as Etihad walked away. But it goes much further back than that. Italy's powerful (too powerful) trade unions are to blame. Th


Sorry if it came across as anti-older people, as an older-still working person myself I get the sensitivity. My comment was relating to the specific set of unionized employees that have been with Alitalia for ages (and throughout numerous bankruptcy protections) and do nothing to save Alitalia or its financials and who are responsable for both a high level of operational costs and poor revenue performance.

Remember how good Air One was before they had to integrate AZ and keep those same employees?
 
slider
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:21 pm

Eh, same as it ever was....
 
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usdcaguy
Posts: 1667
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:33 pm

jsfr wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Two references to age - that's unfortunate. You're decades out of date regarding EU (and U.S.) prohibitions on age discrimination in employment.

Attitudes - customer hating, self-entitled - are subjective. I'm more interested in first year financials to see if they have improved productivity measures relative to successful European carriers, like ASKs per full-time equivalent employee, or revenue per employee.


Truly outdated statement and comment regarding age and employment for sure, and an uneducated assessment. The issue with AZ has always been its employees though. As recently as 2017 or 2018, they had an opportunity to participate in the development of a new carrier and refused it, as Etihad walked away. But it goes much further back than that. Italy's powerful (too powerful) trade unions are to blame. Th


Sorry if it came across as anti-older people, as an older-still working person myself I get the sensitivity. My comment was relating to the specific set of unionized employees that have been with Alitalia for ages (and throughout numerous bankruptcy protections) and do nothing to save Alitalia or its financials and who are responsable for both a high level of operational costs and poor revenue performance.

Remember how good Air One was before they had to integrate AZ and keep those same employees?


Although most of those employees were young at the time. I wasn't that impressed with Air One, but the competition within Italy was sorely needed, particularly on international routes. I think that we'll see a lot of the same AZ employees returning, albeit at reduced salaries. Some positions at AZ do not give employees many transferrable skills, so it would be hard for those who are not accepted at ITA to find jobs. I think attitudes at AZ have been poor for decades, so hopefully, we'll see a carrier like Aegean emerge from the cinders of the old AZ.

CNN had an interesting article on the impact of high-speed rail on AZ and Italian consumers' preferences for the train. I think it likely added to the carrier's woes. I don't think AZ ever had a paltry selection of flights in the '90s or 2000s, but I understand what they're saying here.

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/ital ... index.html
 
Breathe
Posts: 876
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:10 pm

You'd think an airline based in Italy with the draw of all of its rich history and culture, as well as the diaspora and people of Italian heritage (especially in the USA) would be a license to print money, but then again look at Air India! :twisted:
 
AZa346
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:58 pm

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:33 pm

https://www.lanuovasardegna.it/regione/2021/10/13/news/le-rotte-della-continuita-territoriale-a-volotea-1.40806682I just read that Sardinian PSO routes (Alghero, Cagliari, Olbia to Linate and Fiumicino) will be operated by Volotea and not by ITA, as appeared to be the case after the first regional bid. The operations will commence on friday, first day without Alitalia. I am astonished, but i guess that the risk of having a new carrier operating essential routes for connectivity to the mainland with all of the possible teething problems was too risky.


Edited to fix link, which is in italian.
 
dcajet
Posts: 5106
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:16 am

Breathe wrote:
You'd think an airline based in Italy with the draw of all of its rich history and culture, as well as the diaspora and people of Italian heritage (especially in the USA) would be a license to print money, but then again look at Air India! :twisted:


There's plenty of those in summer, but there is a problem. They are not high yielding nor they travel year-round. What Italy lacks is year round high end, high yielding demand (business, corporate traffic), the way other destinations in Europe have. It is not so much an airline issue but a market one. Obviously international airlines can make it work (say Delta) but then, they do not depend almost exclusively on the Italian market to make a living, And if on top of that you are Alitalia and have to also deal with the airline's chronic mismanagement, you have a recipe for disaster.
 
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alberchico
Posts: 3370
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:52 am

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:44 am

Apologies if this has been answered but is ITA planning to retain the Alitalia brand and livery ? I'm a bit confused by this. Many articles say that this is the end of an era, but if the airline will continue operating with the same aircraft, same employees and same Alitalia brand, is it really a new carrier ?
 
sfojvjets
Posts: 251
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:00 am

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:58 am

alberchico wrote:
Apologies if this has been answered but is ITA planning to retain the Alitalia brand and livery ? I'm a bit confused by this. Many articles say that this is the end of an era, but if the airline will continue operating with the same aircraft, same employees and same Alitalia brand, is it really a new carrier ?

I'm pretty sure the deadline to bid for the "old" AZ branding/livery has already (recently) passed. Can't find the link but I'm pretty sure ITA management passed over it since it was too expensive in their eyes.
 
JA
Posts: 228
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:25 am

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:44 am

alberchico wrote:
Apologies if this has been answered but is ITA planning to retain the Alitalia brand and livery ? I'm a bit confused by this. Many articles say that this is the end of an era, but if the airline will continue operating with the same aircraft, same employees and same Alitalia brand, is it really a new carrier ?


They have a temporary use agreement until December 31. I suspect they will get it permanently for $1.
 
AMP44
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:01 pm

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:04 am

alberchico wrote:
Apologies if this has been answered but is ITA planning to retain the Alitalia brand and livery ? I'm a bit confused by this. Many articles say that this is the end of an era, but if the airline will continue operating with the same aircraft, same employees and same Alitalia brand, is it really a new carrier ?

Short answer, yes it is a new carrier, that just so happens to fly an old name that three other airlines have used (from 1949 to 2009, then from 2009 to 2015 and from 2015 to 2021).

Long answer is more complex. A lot of the news articles I've seen have completely missed the full story Alitalia, saying the airline has been flying since 1949. "Original" Alitalia-LAI died in 2009 and that was the time to kill the brand. If the brand wasn't discontinued in 2009, it will not discontinued any time soon. ITA will flying the Alitalia name just as CAI (2009-2015) and SAI (2015-2021) did. Currently Alitalia-SAI acknowledges the "Alitalia" history from 1949, but legally it is unrelated to the previews owners as it did not want to carry on their debts. That is the economic discontinuity piece that the EU requires. ITA is doing the same moves that CAI did in 2009, with the hopes on not running into the issues that caused the 2015 restructuring.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 695
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:17 am

I was searching on EAF ( European Airline Fleet ) for something and saw ITA listed. To my surprise the order for 2022 is :
7x A220-300
7x A320neo
6x A321neo
6x A330-900neo
That`s more than 2 per month. Wow!
https://sites.google.com/view/europeanairlinefleets/ita
 
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N14AZ
Posts: 4251
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:36 am

I don’t get it. So if they do not find an agreement until midnight, would they still take off with aircraft that use the Alitalia brand?
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4911
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:22 am

N14AZ wrote:
I don’t get it. So if they do not find an agreement until midnight, would they still take off with aircraft that use the Alitalia brand?


Yes. It's Italy.
 
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N14AZ
Posts: 4251
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:15 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
I don’t get it. So if they do not find an agreement until midnight, would they still take off with aircraft that use the Alitalia brand?


Yes. It's Italy.

Well, well. I am sure they have some clever lawyers over there. And if ITA uses the AZ-brand I guess the old Alitalia will sue ITA. Wouldn’t be a good start. They have at least one aircraft in neutral colors but that’s almost the easiest part. They would have to replace everything else, the FA‘s dresses, the puke bags… well, literally everything. I guess they are negotiating while I am writing these lines.

Any Italian members who can elaborate on what‘s going on?
 
TokyoImperialPa
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun May 23, 2021 1:50 pm

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:19 pm

Lufthansa already has a profitable Italian-sounding airline called Air Dolomiti. Could that not be expanded to become the flag carrier of Italy?
 
AZa346
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:58 pm

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:23 pm

TokyoImperialPa wrote:
Lufthansa already has a profitable Italian-sounding airline called Air Dolomiti. Could that not be expanded to become the flag carrier of Italy?

Italian sounding yes... but dolomites (dolomiti) is a very small mountain region on the border with Austria... not the most pan Italian name ever...

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