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ContinentalEWR
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:46 pm

mercure1 wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
If ITA were to leave SkyTeam I don't think it weakens AF/KL or Delta, frankly.


Just as Italy is LH 2nd largest foreign market, losing ITA to LH Group would weaken AFKL. Italy certainly provides significant flow between the countries and into AFKL hubs which may now flow onto LH Group.
Many people might not realize but Italy is the 3rd largest economy in EU and top-5 tourism market globally. It certainly beneficial to have a local partner to better capture and deliver to this large market.


Maybe. AF and KL have had AZ at their disposal if they wanted it, since the late 1990s and more than once, each passed on the opportunity, largely owing to AZ's structural problems, labor issues, high costs, and its lack of profitability. When AF and KL began cooperating, before they merged, KL was pretty clear it did not want AZ. Obviously, that was 20+ years ago. To date, only LH has been earnest in its pursuit of AZ or its successor. No one else. DL looked at investing in AZ, and quickly passed. That tells me the market isn't all that valuable or they'd fight for it. Yes, Italy is a huge economy and a major tourist market, but it does not necessarily translate into lucrative business demand sustained year round. The business traffic to Italy goes via MXP (and LIN) not FCO. So, the connection opportunities don't really translate to huge revenue potential. If that were the case, you'd also have IAG looking at ITA. It's not.
 
gaystudpilot
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:24 pm

TWA902fly wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
gaystudpilot wrote:

EETAH like chEETAH or EETAHly (Eataly).

I guess it could also be IT Ah, like Italy.

To summarize:

1. I-T-A
2. EYE-tah
3. EE -tah
4. IT-ah

A partnership with Eataly would be interesting….


Just flew them for the first time PMO-FCO. The crew members pronounced it as EE-TAH, so I am going with that.

'902


EE-TAH it is!

Thanks for sharing.
 
spannacomo
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:50 am

LAXintl wrote:
Reports that LH Group seeking 15-40% stake in ITA.

https://www.aerotelegraph.com/lufthansa ... ays-kaufen

Interestingly after the US, Italy is the largest foreign market for LH so it would be part of a broader strategy and weaken current Skyteam partners AF/KL and Delta.

the source is an article published by il messaggero (in italian):
https://www.ilmessaggero.it/economia/news/ita_airways_lufthansa_cosa_succede-6423533.html
Il messaggero is a roman daily, known to be very close to the government, or maybe we could say to the italian deep state. My understanding of this article is that the government is desperate to involve LH in their ITA project, but at the same time they are imposing conditions that are not acceptable to LH or any other major airline probably, so they are not going to succeed. In the meanwhile ITA must go on to pursue their backup project, which is a stand alone company within the sky team alliance, but free to develop without constraints IT-US traffic which they think is the key to profitability, while going on doing everything else exactly as the old alitalia. By the way I also foresee that delta is going to subscribe some ITA's shares as a compensation inherited from alitalia, who allowed the new TATL JV with virgin atlantic to replace the old one.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:23 am

Apparently, BA/IAG also having talks with ITA

https://www.affaritaliani.it/economia/i ... 73957.html

The story also mentions ITA chairman and CEO will be appearing on Wednesday in the Italian Congress, so we might have more insight then.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:35 am

LAXintl wrote:
Apparently, BA/IAG also having talks with ITA

https://www.affaritaliani.it/economia/i ... 73957.html

The story also mentions ITA chairman and CEO will be appearing on Wednesday in the Italian Congress, so we might have more insight then.


Amusing to see the article claim Delta would have difficulties integrating ITA's fleet, even though every single ITA aircraft type either is or will be in the DL fleet. Not that it would matter anyway.
 
dfdubflyer
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:27 am

Not sure if QR still has money to burn, but they clearly showed interest in the Italian market previously with the Meridiana experiment. Perhaps a combo of IAG and QR money would be enough to get it over the hump. With the IAG runs things though I would imagine they would be interested in cultivating the Milan business travel side of the house in a way the Italian government's plans for FCO wouldn't like
 
ahj2000
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:04 pm

dfdubflyer wrote:
Not sure if QR still has money to burn, but they clearly showed interest in the Italian market previously with the Meridiana experiment. Perhaps a combo of IAG and QR money would be enough to get it over the hump. With the IAG runs things though I would imagine they would be interested in cultivating the Milan business travel side of the house in a way the Italian government's plans for FCO wouldn't like

I mean that is a reason for QR to be even less interested in ITA with how the whole Air Italy thing went, right?
 
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Polot
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:59 pm

ahj2000 wrote:
dfdubflyer wrote:
Not sure if QR still has money to burn, but they clearly showed interest in the Italian market previously with the Meridiana experiment. Perhaps a combo of IAG and QR money would be enough to get it over the hump. With the IAG runs things though I would imagine they would be interested in cultivating the Milan business travel side of the house in a way the Italian government's plans for FCO wouldn't like

I mean that is a reason for QR to be even less interested in ITA with how the whole Air Italy thing went, right?

IIRC QR wanted to continue with Air Italy, but their European investors had had enough. Which of course meant the airline was dead because QR needed them to keep Air Italy legally European.
 
AZa346
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:47 pm

Polot wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
dfdubflyer wrote:
Not sure if QR still has money to burn, but they clearly showed interest in the Italian market previously with the Meridiana experiment. Perhaps a combo of IAG and QR money would be enough to get it over the hump. With the IAG runs things though I would imagine they would be interested in cultivating the Milan business travel side of the house in a way the Italian government's plans for FCO wouldn't like

I mean that is a reason for QR to be even less interested in ITA with how the whole Air Italy thing went, right?

IIRC QR wanted to continue with Air Italy, but their European investors had had enough. Which of course meant the airline was dead because QR needed them to keep Air Italy legally European.

ABSOLYTELY NOT, it was QR that pulled the plug and caused over 1400 people to Loose their job. Besides, a historical airline went missing because of QR wanting to overexpand.
 
spannacomo
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:34 am

AZa346 wrote:
Polot wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
I mean that is a reason for QR to be even less interested in ITA with how the whole Air Italy thing went, right?

IIRC QR wanted to continue with Air Italy, but their European investors had had enough. Which of course meant the airline was dead because QR needed them to keep Air Italy legally European.

ABSOLYTELY NOT, it was QR that pulled the plug and caused over 1400 people to Loose their job. Besides, a historical airline went missing because of QR wanting to overexpand.

Nope
according to this article:
https://www.repubblica.it/economia/2020/02/11/news/air_italy_de_micheli_inaccettabile_la_liquidazione_chiesto_incontro_urgente-248317420/
the aga khan wanted to decrease his commitment in air italy while qatar airways was ready to recapitalize their 49%, so it was an aga khan decision to let air italy sink as everyone knows because nobody else was found to take some burden from the aga khan while QR was prevented by the law to take more than they already had.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:11 pm

Looks like Alitalia name is coming back :lol:

ITA president says the approval to again use the Alitalia name will be take at BoD meeting on January 31st. Details as to how the brand will be used was not disclosed.

https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziend ... ec3f.shtml

Also noted ITA lost EUR 170mil in its forst few months of operations.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:20 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Looks like Alitalia name is coming back :lol:

ITA president says the approval to again use the Alitalia name will be take at BoD meeting on January 31st. Details as to how the brand will be used was not disclosed.

https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziend ... ec3f.shtml

Also noted ITA lost EUR 170mil in its forst few months of operations.


No surprise there. It was to be expected. The loss, excluding the one time costs associated with the restart aren't at all surprising. The business model, network, and strategy don't work, haven't since the 1990s, and with the on going effects the pandemic, even further compromised and hobbled. ITA is the same as AZ. Just smaller. The structural issues remain in place.
 
bennett123
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:51 pm

Cats have 9 lives...
 
Nola
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:59 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Apparently, BA/IAG also having talks with ITA

https://www.affaritaliani.it/economia/i ... 73957.html

The story also mentions ITA chairman and CEO will be appearing on Wednesday in the Italian Congress, so we might have more insight then.


Amusing to see the article claim Delta would have difficulties integrating ITA's fleet, even though every single ITA aircraft type either is or will be in the DL fleet. Not that it would matter anyway.


DL has indicated it has no interest in investing in ITA (at least at this time).

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/111647-delta-denies-interest-in-investing-in-italys-ita-airways
 
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Heavierthanair
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:03 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Cats have 9 lives...


History and recent events indicate the number of cats lives has increased substantially :rotfl:
 
CDGIAD
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:28 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Looks like Alitalia name is coming back :lol:

ITA president says the approval to again use the Alitalia name will be take at BoD meeting on January 31st. Details as to how the brand will be used was not disclosed.

https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziend ... ec3f.shtml

Also noted ITA lost EUR 170mil in its forst few months of operations.


Don't think the will revive the name especially after repainting at least 3 aircrafts already. They may use the name for their lounges but I don't see it coming back on the aircrafts now.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:39 pm

I don't think the cost of painting 3 aircraft would be a significant block to bringing back Alitalia as a brand name - it would be far cheaper to bring back the Alitalia name and save the cost of having to paint the rest of the fleet instead. The main constraint around a rebrand is whether the EU Commission will send a nasty letter to the Italian Govt
 
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Heavierthanair
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:01 pm

Lufthansa likely to buy a share of 40% of ITA per Reuters

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/germanys-lufthansa-is-set-buy-40-stake-alitalias-successor-ita-paper-2022-01-22/

Will be interesting to see how that turns out
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:20 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
I don't think the cost of painting 3 aircraft would be a significant block to bringing back Alitalia as a brand name - it would be far cheaper to bring back the Alitalia name and save the cost of having to paint the rest of the fleet instead. The main constraint around a rebrand is whether the EU Commission will send a nasty letter to the Italian Govt

The middle 3 letters are already painted!
 
AMP44
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:37 pm

CDGIAD wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Looks like Alitalia name is coming back :lol:

ITA president says the approval to again use the Alitalia name will be take at BoD meeting on January 31st. Details as to how the brand will be used was not disclosed.

https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziend ... ec3f.shtml

Also noted ITA lost EUR 170mil in its forst few months of operations.


Don't think the will revive the name especially after repainting at least 3 aircrafts already. They may use the name for their lounges but I don't see it coming back on the aircrafts now.

Alitalia/ITA are known for not caring about wasting money before doing a U-turn not long after. ITA needs to figure out a use for the Alitalia name in an aviation related thing (a small regional Italian airline?) or the trademark is voided and up for grabs by someone else.

"We have a clear mission for the Alitalia brand that will be used" is a promising statement from from ITA. He compares owning the Alitalia brand as KLM having Transavia and Lufthansa having Eurowings, but said that ITA will not create a low-cost under the Alitalia brand. I think that "ITA Airways" would be better suited for low-cost flights and "Alitalia" for their premium ones.

Also curious that the ITA livery is 16kg heavier than Alitalia's, but he said that the two repainted aircraft are 10 kg and 15 kg lighter? Wondering if he is talking of the 2006 livery or the 2015 livery.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:55 pm

JFK is he most important route. Period.

That leaves Delta and AA (Skyteam and Oneworld) If not they hobble themselves on the only route that works for them
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:31 pm

Heavierthanair wrote:
Lufthansa likely to buy a share of 40% of ITA per Reuters

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/germanys-lufthansa-is-set-buy-40-stake-alitalias-successor-ita-paper-2022-01-22/

Will be interesting to see how that turns out


Good luck to them. They'll need it.
 
J343
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:29 pm

Heavierthanair wrote:
Lufthansa likely to buy a share of 40% of ITA per Reuters

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/germanys-lufthansa-is-set-buy-40-stake-alitalias-successor-ita-paper-2022-01-22/

Will be interesting to see how that turns out


How will IAG respond to this? If I’m not mistaken the deal between IAG and Air Europa fell through due to competition laws? (correct me if I’m wrong). It now seems like LH Group is monopolising Europe and gets away with it? Within their portfolio, they now have Lufthansa, Swiss, Austrian, Brussels Airlines, Eurowings and now potentially ITA? How would AF-KL and IAG feel about this? Any thoughts?
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:47 pm

J343 wrote:
Heavierthanair wrote:
Lufthansa likely to buy a share of 40% of ITA per Reuters

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/germanys-lufthansa-is-set-buy-40-stake-alitalias-successor-ita-paper-2022-01-22/

Will be interesting to see how that turns out


How will IAG respond to this? If I’m not mistaken the deal between IAG and Air Europa fell through due to competition laws? (correct me if I’m wrong). It now seems like LH Group is monopolising Europe and gets away with it? Within their portfolio, they now have Lufthansa, Swiss, Austrian, Brussels Airlines, Eurowings and now potentially ITA? How would AF-KL and IAG feel about this? Any thoughts?


I've not been following the IAG/Air Europa story all that closely, but Air Europa is the third largest Spanish airline, behind Iberia and Vueling, which are both part of IAG, so if anti-competition / monopolization is the issue, the argument pretty much ends there.

AF/KL have looked at Alitalia in the past on more than one occasion and each time concluded it wasn't in their interest to invest or pursue a tri-lateral alliance. In the late 1990s, before AF and KL formally merged, there was a developing AF/KL/AZ alliance and in the end, KL didn't want AZ in. AF looked at AZ again around 2008 and passed. The door for an investment in ITA/AZ has been wide open for years. No one, it seems was foolish enough to go after it, other than LH, which has been pursuing it for a while. My sense is that the issue here isn't the ITA/AZ network, which is essentially worthless, save for the LIN slots and the JFK-FCO route. It is perhaps about low cost carriers and keeping the competition from them in check. Whether this is effective or not, is a matter of opinion.
 
spannacomo
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:57 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:

AF/KL have looked at Alitalia in the past on more than one occasion and each time concluded it wasn't in their interest to invest or pursue a tri-lateral alliance. In the late 1990s, before AF and KL formally merged, there was a developing AF/KL/AZ alliance and in the end, KL didn't want AZ in. AF looked at AZ again around 2008 and passed. The door for an investment in ITA/AZ has been wide open for years. No one, it seems was foolish enough to go after it, other than LH, which has been pursuing it for a while. My sense is that the issue here isn't the ITA/AZ network, which is essentially worthless, save for the LIN slots and the JFK-FCO route. It is perhaps about low cost carriers and keeping the competition from them in check. Whether this is effective or not, is a matter of opinion.

actually AFKLM invested about 320 M€ in alitalia at the beginning of 2009 for a 25% stake
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:02 am

spannacomo wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

AF/KL have looked at Alitalia in the past on more than one occasion and each time concluded it wasn't in their interest to invest or pursue a tri-lateral alliance. In the late 1990s, before AF and KL formally merged, there was a developing AF/KL/AZ alliance and in the end, KL didn't want AZ in. AF looked at AZ again around 2008 and passed. The door for an investment in ITA/AZ has been wide open for years. No one, it seems was foolish enough to go after it, other than LH, which has been pursuing it for a while. My sense is that the issue here isn't the ITA/AZ network, which is essentially worthless, save for the LIN slots and the JFK-FCO route. It is perhaps about low cost carriers and keeping the competition from them in check. Whether this is effective or not, is a matter of opinion.

actually AFKLM invested about 320 M€ in alitalia at the beginning of 2009 for a 25% stake


Yes, they did, and wrote off the entire thing in 2013. The investment was in shares, worth 320 million Euro. By the time AF/KL exited, the shares had depreciated substantially (no surprise there) and wrote off the residual value (119 million Euro) in 2013 and at the time were a substantial contribution to a then 51% drop in AF/KL profit for the quarter that ended in September of that year.
 
Nola
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:26 am

Would there be any barrier to AF/KL/DL starting their own Milan or FCO based carrier for long-haul out of Italy in the event that ITA goes with LH? Would it make any sense for them to do that or do they just increase frequencies from the USA on DL metal as part of their JV and then run more flights from CDG and AMS for connections?
 
gaystudpilot
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:44 am

Nola wrote:
Would there be any barrier to AF/KL/DL starting their own Milan or FCO based carrier for long-haul out of Italy in the event that ITA goes with LH? Would it make any sense for them to do that or do they just increase frequencies from the USA on DL metal as part of their JV and then run more flights from CDG and AMS for connections?


The first hurdle *should be* building the business case. That is, begin with identifying the most profitable routes and network opportunities ex-Milan and ex-FCO and determining whether or not a new carrier is justified. I’m not a network development expert but my sense is there is not much opportunity.

California is the fifth largest economy in the world. California does not have its own airline.

Other barriers include EU and country specific regulations, labor groups, political motivations and flag carrier nostalgia.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:56 am

Lufthansa tried having its own Milan-based short haul airline - they called it Lufthansa Italia (no, not the same as Air Dolomiti). Lufthansa Italia did not last very long
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa_Italia
 
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alberchico
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:36 am

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/ita- ... MmWvgC_By4

I'm confused here. So the Alitalia brand will be revived for possibly long haul flights while ITA will remain the brand for local flights ? Based on the fact that so far only an A320 and A319 have been painted in the new livery I'm guessing ITA will remain the brand for short hops throughout Europe. Does it really make sense to split up domestic and long haul operations under two different brand identities ? Is Alitalia that iconic and powerful of a brand that it's worth resurrecting ? I thought it had became somewhat of a joke in recent years, even among Italians.
 
factsonly
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:14 am

Nola wrote:
Would there be any barrier to AF/KL/DL starting their own Milan or FCO based carrier for long-haul out of Italy in the event that ITA goes with LH? Would it make any sense for them to do that or do they just increase frequencies from the USA on DL metal as part of their JV and then run more flights from CDG and AMS for connections?


If direct long-haul routes out of Italy made business sense, there is nothing to stop AF, KL, IB, LH, SK or LO from operating long-haul routes out of Italy, as EU bilaterals permit this.
As an examply, AF already operated LHR-LAX in the past (with little success), as did BA on CDG-JFK and AMS-JFK.

In principle, any EU airline can offer long-haul service from any EU city, as long as the non-EU destination permits this.

Remember that KLM operated 3x weekly B747 service between Italy - Australia in the short period that AZ/KL were in a dedicated alliance.
- AMS-SIN-SYD-SIN-MXP-SIN-SYD-SIN-AMS.

Similarly AF could operate CDG-JFK-FCO-JFK-CDG without any need for local Italian labour contracts.
From the USA, DL could simply raise frequency to Italy.
 
ben7x
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:37 am

J343 wrote:
Heavierthanair wrote:
Lufthansa likely to buy a share of 40% of ITA per Reuters

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/germanys-lufthansa-is-set-buy-40-stake-alitalias-successor-ita-paper-2022-01-22/

Will be interesting to see how that turns out


How will IAG respond to this? If I’m not mistaken the deal between IAG and Air Europa fell through due to competition laws? (correct me if I’m wrong). It now seems like LH Group is monopolising Europe and gets away with it? Within their portfolio, they now have Lufthansa, Swiss, Austrian, Brussels Airlines, Eurowings and now potentially ITA? How would AF-KL and IAG feel about this? Any thoughts?


IAG (Market leader Iberia and second largest airline Vueling) wanted to take over the third largest airline (Air Europa). I don’t know the exact number but they would have had a big monopoly, especially on many routes to/from MAD.
LH Group (Europes second largest ‚carrier‘ and not very big in Italy) wants to buy a 40% stake in Italys second largest airline (Ryanair is the largest airline in Italy).
I don’t know if even the combined ITA/LH market share will be bigger than the one of Ryanair, but I just want to remember you: LH Group is neither Europe largest airline, nor do they have a monopoly on flights to/from or within Europe.
 
spannacomo
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:46 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Lufthansa tried having its own Milan-based short haul airline - they called it Lufthansa Italia (no, not the same as Air Dolomiti). Lufthansa Italia did not last very long
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa_Italia

they did not last because they faced a desperate opposition by alitalia, and alitalia/ITA airways opposition it's impossible to beat since they can bear any loss, because they are heavily subsidized, while their competitors can not. This will happen again if AF/KL should try to operate flights from italy
 
spannacomo
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:52 am

factsonly wrote:
If direct long-haul routes out of Italy made business sense, there is nothing to stop AF, KL, IB, LH, SK or LO from operating long-haul routes out of Italy, as EU bilaterals permit this.
As an examply, AF already operated LHR-LAX in the past (with little success), as did BA on CDG-JFK and AMS-JFK.

In principle, any EU airline can offer long-haul service from any EU city, as long as the non-EU destination permits this.

Remember that KLM operated 3x weekly B747 service between Italy - Australia in the short period that AZ/KL were in a dedicated alliance.
- AMS-SIN-SYD-SIN-MXP-SIN-SYD-SIN-AMS.

Similarly AF could operate CDG-JFK-FCO-JFK-CDG without any need for local Italian labour contracts.
From the USA, DL could simply raise frequency to Italy.

EU bilaterals do not exist with one big exception which is the US-EU market and a few minor such as morocco, airlines can not operate flights from italy outside of the EU unless permitted by italian bilaterals, for sure KLM can not fly from italy to australia unless they are permitted by italian bilaterals.
 
rove312
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:49 pm

alberchico wrote:
https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/ita-italia-trasporto-aereo/surprise-or-not-the-alitalia-brand-will-fly-again-in-march/amp/?fbclid=IwAR1vcf_ag9HfWkdmo9TdbIOoRfluWAUkYwrWa0OSZbe4N-yG8MmWvgC_By4

I'm confused here. So the Alitalia brand will be revived for possibly long haul flights while ITA will remain the brand for local flights ? Based on the fact that so far only an A320 and A319 have been painted in the new livery I'm guessing ITA will remain the brand for short hops throughout Europe. Does it really make sense to split up domestic and long haul operations under two different brand identities ? Is Alitalia that iconic and powerful of a brand that it's worth resurrecting ? I thought it had became somewhat of a joke in recent years, even among Italians.


I suspect they have it wrong, but here's an article in Italian speculating the opposite: https://www.umbria24.it/economia/aeropo ... -a-perugia

That Alitalia would be the low-cost division of ITA, and Perugia would take flights from Sardinia connecting to Rome and Milan.
 
AMP44
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:19 pm

rove312 wrote:
alberchico wrote:
https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/ita-italia-trasporto-aereo/surprise-or-not-the-alitalia-brand-will-fly-again-in-march/amp/?fbclid=IwAR1vcf_ag9HfWkdmo9TdbIOoRfluWAUkYwrWa0OSZbe4N-yG8MmWvgC_By4

I'm confused here. So the Alitalia brand will be revived for possibly long haul flights while ITA will remain the brand for local flights ? Based on the fact that so far only an A320 and A319 have been painted in the new livery I'm guessing ITA will remain the brand for short hops throughout Europe. Does it really make sense to split up domestic and long haul operations under two different brand identities ? Is Alitalia that iconic and powerful of a brand that it's worth resurrecting ? I thought it had became somewhat of a joke in recent years, even among Italians.


I suspect they have it wrong, but here's an article in Italian speculating the opposite: https://www.umbria24.it/economia/aeropo ... -a-perugia

That Alitalia would be the low-cost division of ITA, and Perugia would take flights from Sardinia connecting to Rome and Milan.

Doesn't make much sense, specially after Altavilla said that there are no intention of creating a low cost division with the Alitalia brand. I would say Umbria 24 got it wrong.

Also, Italians have a more negative perception of the Alitalia brand than foreigners have. Using it for domestic operations wouldn't necessarily be a good plan.
 
IADFCO
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:22 pm

Re: previous posts on Alitalia's brand coming back

Another factor is going to be what happens in the upcoming presidential election. If Mario Draghi stays on, either as President or as Prime Minister, the EU will go easy on Italy in this and other matters, and be flexible. If Draghi leaves (not elected President, and tells everybody to go pound sand and quits as PM) I think that the EU will scream DISCONTINUITY!!! at any attempt to bring the Alitalia brand back.

[entirely my opinion, not based on any inside info]
 
factsonly
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:23 am

spannacomo wrote:
factsonly wrote:
If direct long-haul routes out of Italy made business sense, there is nothing to stop AF, KL, IB, LH, SK or LO from operating long-haul routes out of Italy, as EU bilaterals permit this.
As an examply, AF already operated LHR-LAX in the past (with little success), as did BA on CDG-JFK and AMS-JFK.

In principle, any EU airline can offer long-haul service from any EU city, as long as the non-EU destination permits this.

Remember that KLM operated 3x weekly B747 service between Italy - Australia in the short period that AZ/KL were in a dedicated alliance.
- AMS-SIN-SYD-SIN-MXP-SIN-SYD-SIN-AMS.

Similarly AF could operate CDG-JFK-FCO-JFK-CDG without any need for local Italian labour contracts.
From the USA, DL could simply raise frequency to Italy.

EU bilaterals do not exist with one big exception which is the US-EU market and a few minor such as morocco, airlines can not operate flights from italy outside of the EU unless permitted by italian bilaterals, for sure KLM can not fly from italy to australia unless they are permitted by italian bilaterals.


You are right, many European nations (UK, France, Scandinavia, The Netherlands etc.) have long-standing bilaterals with Italy, that include traffic rights beyond Italy.
So AF and KL could - if it made any business sense - launch long-haul routes on those routes that are in the respective bilaterals.
As I stated above "as long as the NON-EU nation permits this", meaning the destination country.

Remember, that in the 1950's, 60's and 70's both AF & KL operated long-haul routes with stops in FCO and full traffic rights beyond Italy.
 
spannacomo
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:09 pm

Breaking news
Group MSC, cargo shipping and cruises giant, are interested to buy - along with LH - a majority stake of ITA airways, italian press reports
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:25 pm

ITA confirms it has received expression of interest to purchase a stake in the carrier.

Image
 
ben7x
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:58 am

Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:57 pm

LAXintl wrote:
ITA confirms it has received expression of interest to purchase a stake in the carrier.

Image


Some more information:
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/lufthansa ... ays-kaufen (German)

Very interesting move from MSC. Italy is certainly an big market for them as it is for LH. Curios what’s their plan.
 
a350lover
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:07 pm

Why would Lufthansa need another “risky” leg in a country like Italy -highly regulated, having tones of competence from lowcost carriers- when they already have “issues” with: Eurowings, Brussels, and Austrian...?
 
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mercure1
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:38 pm

a350lover wrote:
Why would Lufthansa need another “risky” leg in a country like Italy -highly regulated, having tones of competence from lowcost carriers- when they already have “issues” with: Eurowings, Brussels, and Austrian...?


Per LH, Italy is its second-largest international market. LH has long wanted a stronger footing -- remember LH Italia?

https://onemileatatime.com/news/lufthansa-ita-airways/
 
T4thH
Posts: 1868
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:35 pm

mercure1 wrote:
a350lover wrote:
Why would Lufthansa need another “risky” leg in a country like Italy -highly regulated, having tones of competence from lowcost carriers- when they already have “issues” with: Eurowings, Brussels, and Austrian...?


Per LH, Italy is its second-largest international market. LH has long wanted a stronger footing -- remember LH Italia?

https://onemileatatime.com/news/lufthansa-ita-airways/

Because Italy is a big market andinternational connections from Italy are strong in markets,, LH group is lacking-> AFRICA!
Together with the transcontinal connections from Rome, which are also interesting for the LH group.
And do not forget, prior COVID pandemic, Air Dolomity was one of the four real success stories (also the smalest of the three airlines). in the LH group (passenger part), toghether with Swiss + Edelweiss and LH itself.
Brussels as also Austrian are now on a good way to get back to according earnings post covid. As example, the market share in Vienna for Austrian is fast rising, while all others (including the Wizz) are loosing or even leaving.
 
Flying-Tiger
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MSC, Lufthansa looking at stake in ITA Airways

Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:07 am

Mediterranean Shipping Co. said it’s seeking a controlling stake in new Italian flag carrier ITA Airways through a deal that would also include Deutsche Lufthansa AG.


MSC filed an expression of interest in state-owned ITA to the Italian government detailing the proposal, it said Monday. Lufthansa would act as an industrial partner, the release said, though the German firm has no immediate plans to make an equity investment, other people close to the situation said.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-24/msc-partners-with-lufthansa-in-a-bid-for-italy-s-ita-airways

That´s quite a development. It means that MSC is willing to follow Maersk and CMA CGM into the sphere of aviation for both its cargo and cruise businesses.
 
chonetsao
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Re: MSC, Lufthansa looking at stake in ITA Airways

Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:38 am

I think MSC is hedging against the unstable geopolitics for years to come. Shipping is great and the business is steady. But the ongoing Saudi-Yemen war, the Taiwan Straight conflict, the Russia aggression all point to some risks to shipping. So I would say MSC is smart to try to get into aviation business. Also it helps its cruise business with a preferred (and importantly with a controlling stake) aviation partner.

Will be interesting to see what eventually come out of this.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: MSC, Lufthansa looking at stake in ITA Airways

Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:39 am

chonetsao wrote:
I think MSC is hedging against the unstable geopolitics for years to come. Shipping is great and the business is steady. But the ongoing Saudi-Yemen war, the Taiwan Straight conflict, the Russia aggression all point to some risks to shipping. So I would say MSC is smart to try to get into aviation business. Also it helps its cruise business with a preferred (and importantly with a controlling stake) aviation partner.

Will be interesting to see what eventually come out of this.


When you think that MSC is heavy in mediterranean cruises and Genoa, Rome (Civitavecchia) and Venice are often the start/end of the cruises (Barcelona being the other big one), heaving an airline being able to serve these markets easely can have some benefits.
 
Kikko19
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Re: MSC, Lufthansa looking at stake in ITA Airways

Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:06 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
I think MSC is hedging against the unstable geopolitics for years to come. Shipping is great and the business is steady. But the ongoing Saudi-Yemen war, the Taiwan Straight conflict, the Russia aggression all point to some risks to shipping. So I would say MSC is smart to try to get into aviation business. Also it helps its cruise business with a preferred (and importantly with a controlling stake) aviation partner.

Will be interesting to see what eventually come out of this.


When you think that MSC is heavy in mediterranean cruises and Genoa, Rome (Civitavecchia) and Venice are often the start/end of the cruises (Barcelona being the other big one), heaving an airline being able to serve these markets easely can have some benefits.
MSC operates also a large fleet of container ships
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 1989
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Re: MSC, Lufthansa looking at stake in ITA Airways

Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:12 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
I think MSC is hedging against the unstable geopolitics for years to come. Shipping is great and the business is steady. But the ongoing Saudi-Yemen war, the Taiwan Straight conflict, the Russia aggression all point to some risks to shipping. So I would say MSC is smart to try to get into aviation business. Also it helps its cruise business with a preferred (and importantly with a controlling stake) aviation partner.

Will be interesting to see what eventually come out of this.


When you think that MSC is heavy in mediterranean cruises and Genoa, Rome (Civitavecchia) and Venice are often the start/end of the cruises (Barcelona being the other big one), heaving an airline being able to serve these markets easely can have some benefits.
MSC operates also a large fleet of container ships


Large is good, MSC is one of the biggest. I just wonder how ITA would fit there (at least currently). They do not have a large long haul network to shift a lot of freight into the belly cargos. So if MSC really intends to also use air cargo to mitigate certain delays and problems on the seaborne shipping side, they would need to get at least some freighters.

In the current state I do not see too much synergy there but there is always the option to create synergies.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Updated ITA/Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:39 pm

The MSC cruises division is much smaller than the container ship main business.

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