MIflyer12
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:22 pm

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alit ... SKBN1XU2KI

Reuters: Alitalia Rescue Plan hits the Skids

This is farce, not an orderly restructuring program under the law.

A deadline for binding bids for Alitalia expires on Thursday at midnight after several postponements.

One source close to the matter said Alitalia administrators would meet Italy’s industry minister Stefano Patuanelli on Thursday to discuss the situation.

“I believe there is still room ... with Delta, Lufthansa... to reach a conclusion,” Patuanelli said speaking on CNBC TV on Wednesday evening.

But he added he did not want to postpone the expected closing date of end-March for any rescue package, by which time any deal should have secured all necessary approvals.

Patuanelli said Lufthansa should “make a small effort” to take a stake in the Italian carrier from the off. On Tuesday the German carrier sent a letter to Ferrovie offering merely a commercial partnership for Alitalia.


Emphasis mine.
 
Blerg
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:43 pm

Atlantia is also out of the race:

https://www.ft.com/content/f8b6ca82-0b0 ... f4d1957a67

So if there are no serious bidders the following day, what becomes of Alitalia? Will they be out of money or......
 
FatCat
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:18 am

Blerg wrote:
Atlantia is also out of the race:

https://www.ft.com/content/f8b6ca82-0b0 ... f4d1957a67

So if there are no serious bidders the following day, what becomes of Alitalia? Will they be out of money or......

It will be postponed again, with another bridge loan from the Gov't, for another three months, then someone will say that Delta is interested, that Lufthansa is interested, that Ferrovie is interested, that an alliance of italian capitalists will save the Company, that Emirates is interested, then on the 21st of February no one will show up because no one is interested, so Alitalia will receive another bridge loan, and the story will start all over again. The one of today is the eight postponement.
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eta unknown
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:58 am

I think grasso gatto has summed it up quite well... Rinse, repeat...

Interesting that Atlantis pulled out... Maybe with the current Taranto mess with Arcelor Mittal they will call the govt's bluff too...
 
Blerg
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:43 pm

Wasn't there a strike threat by the employees? I think I read that somewhere.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:55 pm

FatCat wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Atlantia is also out of the race:

https://www.ft.com/content/f8b6ca82-0b0 ... f4d1957a67

So if there are no serious bidders the following day, what becomes of Alitalia? Will they be out of money or......

It will be postponed again, with another bridge loan from the Gov't, for another three months, then someone will say that Delta is interested, that Lufthansa is interested, that Ferrovie is interested, that an alliance of italian capitalists will save the Company, that Emirates is interested, then on the 21st of February no one will show up because no one is interested, so Alitalia will receive another bridge loan, and the story will start all over again. The one of today is the eight postponement.


The amount of taxpayer money the Italian government invested in a dead-end airline is just stunning, you would think they've better things to spend it on in Italy.
 
FatCat
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:14 pm

Yes IWMBH exactly. AZ has the biggest R-PAX number but the smallest occupancy on his planes. We are all AZ passengers - would be nice to know how much money spent the Gvt after selling AZ...

A strike is already been announced and confirmed for Friday, December 13th ( what a new thing, a strike on a Friday ). Last one was IIRC in October. My Company policy is to avoid AZ flights if possible, not for the bad quality or the delays causing missing connections but for the risk of a sudden strike - we try to avoid AF as well.

Atlantia is the Company (owned by the Benetton family) that owns the majority of highways concessions here, they owned also the bridge that collapsed August last Year over the city of Genoa killing 40+ people. Gvt threathened them to cancel the concession because that bridge was in need of major maintenances, and, it's in the news since the event that multiple inspections reported the bad state of maintenance and structural integrity, but were simply ignored. So as a retaliation, Atlantia decided not to invest in AZ anymore.

It's all politics - and as always, taxpayers pay for politicians' games
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spannacomo
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:20 pm

Link in Italian only:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.milanofinanza.it/amp/news/alitalia-ecco-il-piano-segreto-del-governo-per-la-vendita-201911231722445557&ved=0ahUKEwjcg9_a5IDmAhXP_qQKHd_SCN4QyM8BCCgwAA&usg=AOvVaw2hafXHc7yWlnDFVvoUQwqJ&ampcf=1
It looks like something is moving towards a reasonable solution. The government understood they can't sell Alitalia like it is now, and will be given by the EU a few more months to downsize it until somebody will find it attractive to buy. Somebody means Lufthansa but also AFKLM recently said they are open to consider buying it. I really hope this is not just a rumor.
 
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nordikcam
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:53 am

A restructured Alitalia is how many jobs less? Another thing, I do not see what LH will do in this Italian galley. They have a lot to do with OS, SN and especially Eurowings, an industrial disaster!
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:17 pm

Italian government will provide additional €400m funding.

State will also ask current administrators to quit and give new administrator mandate as a way to bypass EU state aid rules.

Alitalia to receive additional taxpayers' money after rescuers backtrack
https://www.reuters.com/article/alitali ... SL8N2840RM
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
bennett123
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:26 pm

Will be interesting to see if the new administrator uses the mandate ‘to cut Jobs and planes’.
 
kiowa
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Deltas deal with Alitalia

Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:48 pm

Did Delta pull the plug on their deal with/for Alitalia leaving the taxpayers to foot more money to keep them afloat? The article is a bit vague on what happened.

https://www.reuters.com/article/alitali ... SL8N2840RM
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:31 am

FatCat wrote:
Yes IWMBH exactly. AZ has the biggest R-PAX number but the smallest occupancy on his planes. We are all AZ passengers - would be nice to know how much money spent the Gvt after selling AZ...

A strike is already been announced and confirmed for Friday, December 13th ( what a new thing, a strike on a Friday ). Last one was IIRC in October. My Company policy is to avoid AZ flights if possible, not for the bad quality or the delays causing missing connections but for the risk of a sudden strike - we try to avoid AF as well.

Atlantia is the Company (owned by the Benetton family) that owns the majority of highways concessions here, they owned also the bridge that collapsed August last Year over the city of Genoa killing 40+ people. Gvt threathened them to cancel the concession because that bridge was in need of major maintenances, and, it's in the news since the event that multiple inspections reported the bad state of maintenance and structural integrity, but were simply ignored. So as a retaliation, Atlantia decided not to invest in AZ anymore.

It's all politics - and as always, taxpayers pay for politicians' games


Alitalia's employees are the company's achilles heel. Backed by powerful unions, they are what turn away most potential investors. Alitalia isn't well integrated into a global network even with it being part of SkyTeam (it is a junior partner). AF/KL want nothing to do with Alitalia and I suspect that their management would love to see them kicked out. The focal point of AZ's code-sharing is really with Delta to provide extra lift in the Summer and in the low season, the flying DL does not want to do or is not economically viable for them given Italy's market dynamics. Combine that with an inefficient airport system (MXP, LIN, FCO, principally), and decades of gross mismanagement, and there you have it. AZ will not go away. It is like a fungus and the Italian government will happily pour money down the drain to keep it from failing. It is a national icon (though not well loved at all). This story will go on and on and on. Absolutely no one will invest in it. LH wants the market share and the intercontinental routes but little else. All that said, AZ has a few things going for it. The airline's load factor continues to climb in peak months on TATL flights. It has a stellar safety record and is known to have highly skilled pilots. The on board service has dramatically improved as well and the premium cabin is competitive.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:30 am

I note one thing LH strongly advised was the Govt. had to deal with the unions (and the overstaffing)- in other words, don't try and fob AZ off and expect us to deal with the crap. As stated by a poster above, I think the Govt. has finally gotten the message. This saga has been going on for too long- the Govt. can't find any more creative solutions and nobody is willing to invest in AZ unless serious reforms are already in place- something now has to give.
 
FatCat
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:53 am

eta unknown wrote:
I note one thing LH strongly advised was the Govt. had to deal with the unions (and the overstaffing)- in other words, don't try and fob AZ off and expect us to deal with the crap. As stated by a poster above, I think the Govt. has finally gotten the message. This saga has been going on for too long- the Govt. can't find any more creative solutions and nobody is willing to invest in AZ unless serious reforms are already in place- something now has to give.

not completely true.
AZ was born as a Gvt - owned Company. Like Aeroflot or Interflug or Thai or Malaysia.

Everyone was happy and bribes were sky-high in the Aerospace Industry during the 60s, 70s and 80s. AZ bought the B727s, then the DC-10s, MD-80s and MD-11s riding the wave of bribes. There was a big scandal with the B727s, you may find somewhere in the Internet - it was like the Lockheed scandal, btw.

The Minister of Transport had bribes, the AZ executives had bribes, everyone in key positions had bribes - from MDD, Boeing, and, in latter times, some say also from Airbus.
Executives and Politicians were spending happily people's money on a carrier that was, in the golden days, a little PanAm.

For many, many years AZ was used (is still used) as a repository for "friends of friends" of Politicians, and Rome's "influential people": lazy sons, daughters were parked in an office in Rome, after ten or fifteen years in College and a useless degree, with a sky high pay, doing nothing.

This is the problem: thousands of "passive" employees, that do not know what to do, parked in offices in AZ's headquarters, that cannot be fired - because they're friends with this or that politician. Not only Unions - that's the last problem, for what they count in today's italian job politics.
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PANAMsterdam
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:00 am

I don't think AFKL's CEO wants to deal with another very strike-prone airline, like AF. The unions will kill the airline group. Alitalia has never been really profitable, so what's the use of buying into a financially failing airline? So many powerful airlines thought they could handle that (Swissair, Etihad) and they all failed.
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art
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:49 am

FatCat wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Atlantia is also out of the race:

https://www.ft.com/content/f8b6ca82-0b0 ... f4d1957a67

So if there are no serious bidders the following day, what becomes of Alitalia? Will they be out of money or......

It will be postponed again, with another bridge loan from the Gov't, for another three months, then someone will say that Delta is interested, that Lufthansa is interested, that Ferrovie is interested, that an alliance of italian capitalists will save the Company, that Emirates is interested, then on the 21st of February no one will show up because no one is interested, so Alitalia will receive another bridge loan, and the story will start all over again. The one of today is the eight postponement.


If the Italian government would award me just 1 million euros to cover my due diligence costs in looking at Alitalia, they could give Alitalia a few zillion more euros while I was deciding not to buy the basket case. Everyone happy!
 
spannacomo
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:02 am

it looks like the EU eventually ran out of patience, according to La Repubblica they will allow the government maximum until Christmas to find a solution, or else...
 
Blerg
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:32 pm

spannacomo wrote:
it looks like the EU eventually ran out of patience, according to La Repubblica they will allow the government maximum until Christmas to find a solution, or else...


Or else what? Are they really ready to destabilize the current government and to force a new election in Italy where the outcome would most likely not suit the EU? Nothing will happen, the EU just needs to pretend like they are angry.
 
crazy
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:58 pm

President Conte (Italian Government Prime Minister) just said that there aren't conditions to sell Alitalia, especially because of Atlantia Group withdrawal; he said that nobody wants the airline like it is , that Italian Railways, Delta and Lufthansa are present in the market but THIS Alitalia can't be sold.
EU is considering like State Aid the first bridge-loan while much probably Bruxelles will not accept the next bridge-loan of 400 million euro.
For EU "Alitalia file" must be solved for December 31st 2019.
President Conte continued saying that the only solution is to reorganize the airline:
- more than 5000 employees to fire
- half fleet
- half routes
that is what Lufthansa wants to enter in Alitalia codesharing at first (not to buy the airline!), then to make something more in the future.
 
crazy
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:07 pm

New bridge-loan authorized by Italian Government.
New attempt to sell Alitalia for May 31st 2020.
 
JJ777
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:32 pm

crazy wrote:
New bridge-loan authorized by Italian Government.
New attempt to sell Alitalia for May 31st 2020.


Will it EVER end? :roll:
 
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brianK73
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:00 pm

On the bright side, the newly re-organized Alitalia may become the first airline to land at newly opened BER.

What the Italian government needs may be the U.S. Chapter 11 style bankruptcy law that can truly re-start the corporation with a clean slate.
 
crazy
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:23 pm

EU already answered to Italian Government: no State aids without Bruxelles ok.
 
FatCat
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:40 pm

Bridge loans, even if issued by CDP (Cassa Depositi e Prestiti) are indeed State aids.
So the EU Commission should have already issued a ticket to the Italian Gvt for aiding a private Company.

Problem is, that 5000 persons fired, in Italy, is a huge problem. You may see a similar situation with former ILVA in Taranto (one of Italy's biggest steel mill) once controlled by the Gvt, then sold, and never worked again as in the golden days. Too much to invest (environmentally speaking), competition from China (and other Countries) for cheaper steel and the general collapse of heavy industries in the Belpaese, made this steel mill financially not convenient anymore. Not a big deal some may say, and maybe it's even better - cancer percentage in the area is sky-high -. But that means also 10.000 - 12.000 workers at home, + all the "satellites" companies - hauling, etc - closing and firing workers, numbers rise up to an estimated 20.000 people without a job necessary to put the dinner on the family's table.
It's a National Emergency, and Social Welfare has to do something, we have a thing that's called "cassa integrazione" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemploym ... s_in_Italy ) and it's paid by the Government, but paying 10 or 20.000 persons that do not work (thus not contribuiting to the social welfare) for an indeterminate time, will be pretty dangerous. Also because our capitalist society is based on wealth and consumism, without a wage to spend, the whole economy of a region will collapse. The threath of closing factories (and indeed closing them) was the FIAT's and Agnelli Family "leitmotiv" throughout the years. But that's another story.

Returning to AZ: Gvt prefers to give bridge loan over bridge loan to AZ because it will be, in the end, less costly and less disruptive to Italy's macroeconomics than a mass of 5.000 workers being fired (and receiving social welfare) + satellite companies shutting down.
By the way buyers want to buy only valuable assetts - crews, technicians, slots - and not loss-making assets - people heating the chair in a forgotten office, expensive leasing contracts for aging airplanes, 10% occupancy routes. Who wants to buy a used car with a grumpy old mother-in-law in the backseat?

The only possible solution for AZ is being absorbed again into the Gvt. Because choosing between paying workers via social welfare not to work and paying them to work, well, maybe it is better if they work...

In other news, an interesting thing about Alitalia paying the rent to Etihad for former Alitalia's slots at Heathrow: € 10.000,- / day, for 10 slots (maybe 20? They talk about 10 to and 10 from LHR) is not that much, imho. The source is in italian only, shouldn't be behind a paywall. Chrome's translate plugin will work fine: https://www.corriere.it/cronache/19_dic ... 2b1f.shtml
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hinckley
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:38 pm

FatCat wrote:
Returning to AZ: Gvt prefers to give bridge loan over bridge loan to AZ because it will be, in the end, less costly and less disruptive to Italy's macroeconomics than a mass of 5.000 workers being fired (and receiving social welfare) + satellite companies shutting down.

The problem with your argument is that the bridge loans do nothing to fix the core problems at Alitalia, so permanent subsidies are needed to cover permanent losses. You then have to ask the question - Do permanent subsidies cost more than five years of cassa integrazione? The answer is "obviously yes, permanent subsidies cost more." If the answer was anything else, Italy would be paying subsidies to any company that needed/threatened to fire even a single employee.
 
Blerg
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:20 am

hinckley wrote:
FatCat wrote:
Returning to AZ: Gvt prefers to give bridge loan over bridge loan to AZ because it will be, in the end, less costly and less disruptive to Italy's macroeconomics than a mass of 5.000 workers being fired (and receiving social welfare) + satellite companies shutting down.

The problem with your argument is that the bridge loans do nothing to fix the core problems at Alitalia, so permanent subsidies are needed to cover permanent losses. You then have to ask the question - Do permanent subsidies cost more than five years of cassa integrazione? The answer is "obviously yes, permanent subsidies cost more." If the answer was anything else, Italy would be paying subsidies to any company that needed/threatened to fire even a single employee.


Yes but when the government is providing them with bridge loans, they are doing it as a temporary solution until the airline is privatized. So they don't see it as a final solution for the airline's problems but rather a temporary one. Of course that Alitalia is a mess but they know that shutting it down would create a big shock in the country so they are keeping them alive.

That said, the government should have done more to reform the airline, regardless of the privatization process.

How many employees has Alitalia had in the past five years? Is the number going down at least?
 
FatCat
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:30 am

Blerg wrote:
hinckley wrote:
FatCat wrote:
Returning to AZ: Gvt prefers to give bridge loan over bridge loan to AZ because it will be, in the end, less costly and less disruptive to Italy's macroeconomics than a mass of 5.000 workers being fired (and receiving social welfare) + satellite companies shutting down.

The problem with your argument is that the bridge loans do nothing to fix the core problems at Alitalia, so permanent subsidies are needed to cover permanent losses. You then have to ask the question - Do permanent subsidies cost more than five years of cassa integrazione? The answer is "obviously yes, permanent subsidies cost more." If the answer was anything else, Italy would be paying subsidies to any company that needed/threatened to fire even a single employee.


Yes but when the government is providing them with bridge loans, they are doing it as a temporary solution until the airline is privatized. So they don't see it as a final solution for the airline's problems but rather a temporary one. Of course that Alitalia is a mess but they know that shutting it down would create a big shock in the country so they are keeping them alive.

That said, the government should have done more to reform the airline, regardless of the privatization process.

How many employees has Alitalia had in the past five years? Is the number going down at least?


Number of employees? There are no exact numbers. Or better, I cannot find them. The Press has written so much about AZ in the past years, that precise informations are mixed with fake and you cannot tell what's true and what's fake.
Most of them talk about 10.000 people working for AZ in general.
Surely the number shrinked in the last 5 years. But that's not enough.
It is true that bridge loans won't keep the Airline healthy and in good shape. It's a mere palliative given to a dying organism.

Main problem - apart from a truly huge number of inactive employees - is that the management has holes as big as craters. Once in two years they change the crew's uniforms and announce a stupid new route that no one will use like Rome - Tashkent two times per day and they judge as good management.
The fleet is ridicolous and thanks God South & Central America routes keep the occupancy high on long-range routes. Because on short routes, AZ is completely out of the games.
The only HUB is FCO and MXP lacks of long and medium range routes ( remember that Milan is for Italy is what Frankfurt is for Germany ) to attract business customers.
They bet on LIN that's a very limited airport - like LCY, for example - after giving MXP, that could have and indeed has a very bigger expansion possibilities, to foreign Airlines as a present.
Planes are leased from 16 different leasing companies.
AZ has a fixed price for fuel of $ 68 over a medium price between $ 40 and $ 50 ( per what, I can't remember... maybe hectolitres? ).
AZ Maintenance has a lot of qualified technicians but AZ prefers to contract the maintenance to other suppliers. And the list of absurdities goes on and on...
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spannacomo
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:35 am

Blerg wrote:
hinckley wrote:
FatCat wrote:
Returning to AZ: Gvt prefers to give bridge loan over bridge loan to AZ because it will be, in the end, less costly and less disruptive to Italy's macroeconomics than a mass of 5.000 workers being fired (and receiving social welfare) + satellite companies shutting down.

The problem with your argument is that the bridge loans do nothing to fix the core problems at Alitalia, so permanent subsidies are needed to cover permanent losses. You then have to ask the question - Do permanent subsidies cost more than five years of cassa integrazione? The answer is "obviously yes, permanent subsidies cost more." If the answer was anything else, Italy would be paying subsidies to any company that needed/threatened to fire even a single employee.


Yes but when the government is providing them with bridge loans, they are doing it as a temporary solution until the airline is privatized. So they don't see it as a final solution for the airline's problems but rather a temporary one. Of course that Alitalia is a mess but they know that shutting it down would create a big shock in the country so they are keeping them alive.

That said, the government should have done more to reform the airline, regardless of the privatization process.

How many employees has Alitalia had in the past five years? Is the number going down at least?

how long a temporary solution is expected to last? Alitalia SAI (full name of the company failed on may 2017) lasted less than the currnet temporary extraordinary administration under government control and with taxpayer money
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:00 pm

FatCat wrote:
...
By the way buyers want to buy only valuable assetts - crews, technicians, slots - and not loss-making assets - people heating the chair in a forgotten office, expensive leasing contracts for aging airplanes, 10% occupancy routes. Who wants to buy a used car with a grumpy old mother-in-law in the backseat?
....


I wonder if, out of this whole mess, there could be a carve-out of profitable susbsidiaries to sell. Like "AZ Tech", "AZ Ground", that sort of thing. On the plus side, you could safeguard those jobs, and possibly generate some cash to "repay part of bridge loan". On the plus-plus side, the remaining AZ would become even more what it really is -- an overbloated money-losing airline.


If the government grows a spine, they could carve out a lean long-range airline called "AZ Intercontinental", sell it to Delta+Ferrovie dello stato, and let the overbloated short-haul AZ rot in full public view.

But probably it's all impossible, as cronies are not stupid, and will make sure "proper people" are getting a good going out of this...
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eta unknown
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:15 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
On the plus-plus side, the remaining AZ would become even more what it really is -- an overbloated money-losing airline.


Isn't that what Berlusconi did with the current AZ a few years ago... and look where we've returned to now.

Honestly, I wish the govt. had the guts to close the whole thing down or at least put all the unnecessary staff on casa instagazzuone and be done with it. It's far cheaper to pay people to sit at home than to continue operating into this infinite black hole.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:34 pm

eta unknown wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
On the plus-plus side, the remaining AZ would become even more what it really is -- an overbloated money-losing airline.


Isn't that what Berlusconi did with the current AZ a few years ago... and look where we've returned to now.

Honestly, I wish the govt. had the guts to close the whole thing down or at least put all the unnecessary staff on casa instagazzuone and be done with it. It's far cheaper to pay people to sit at home than to continue operating into this infinite black hole.
.

Cassa integrazione would cost 3 times more than to continue to operate and that's before you measure the economical impact. If you account for indirect jobs, more than 20.000 jobs hang in the balance.

Remember also that AZ is the main operator at a few secondary airports in Italy, such as AHO, CAG, CTA, PMO, REG and TRS. Sure, they get subsidies to fly AHO and CAG, but without AZ, those airports would have too little traffic to justify staying open in the winter, and LCC's would have to carry a heavier burden to keep the airport operating, meabing higher fees and LCC's escaping.
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
hinckley
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:47 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Cassa integrazione would cost 3 times more than to continue to operate and that's before you measure the economical impact. If you account for indirect jobs, more than 20.000 jobs hang in the balance.

Please share your calculation with us all, especially how you've solved for infinite subsidies.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:14 pm

hinckley wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Cassa integrazione would cost 3 times more than to continue to operate and that's before you measure the economical impact. If you account for indirect jobs, more than 20.000 jobs hang in the balance.

Please share your calculation with us all, especially how you've solved for infinite subsidies.


Direct costs
Cassa Integrazione pay-out
20.000 people X 1000 EUR per month x 12 months = 240 millions per year.

Indirect costs
-Loss of tax revenue
20.000 people X 1500 EUR per month X 12 months = 360 millions per year minimum, up to 500 millions per year

-Working costs (job rehabilitation programs, administrative employees, liquidation costs, etc... )
20.000 people X 100-1000 EUR per month X 12 months = up to 100 millions per year

-FCO airport impact
Loss of revenue
300 millions to 500 millions

It's easy to suggest to close AZ down.
As a government, you need to look at everything and don't forget that a big part of the loan/subsidies are going back to the government as all sorts of taxes.

So AZ is actually profitable for the government, even if it isn't profitable in itself.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:16 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
On the plus-plus side, the remaining AZ would become even more what it really is -- an overbloated money-losing airline.


Isn't that what Berlusconi did with the current AZ a few years ago... and look where we've returned to now.

Honestly, I wish the govt. had the guts to close the whole thing down or at least put all the unnecessary staff on casa instagazzuone and be done with it. It's far cheaper to pay people to sit at home than to continue operating into this infinite black hole.
.

Cassa integrazione would cost 3 times more than to continue to operate and that's before you measure the economical impact. If you account for indirect jobs, more than 20.000 jobs hang in the balance.

Remember also that AZ is the main operator at a few secondary airports in Italy, such as AHO, CAG, CTA, PMO, REG and TRS. Sure, they get subsidies to fly AHO and CAG, but without AZ, those airports would have too little traffic to justify staying open in the winter, and LCC's would have to carry a heavier burden to keep the airport operating, meabing higher fees and LCC's escaping.



What I don't understand here is why we're assuming that AZ workers would be completely helpless after layoffs. In the US for example, people that were laid off after 9-11 went and found a number of jobs doing other things. Theoretically, people lose their jobs all the time, and for better or worse, it is their responsibility to manage their careers, even if that means giving them financial support for a couple of years until they find something.

Meanwhile, I think the Italian government should concurrently be working to find someone who would be willing to found a new carrier that could replicate AZ's routes where they have over a certain amount of market share. Financing for the start-up could be offered at 0% for a number of years. After the current AZ ceased operations, the start-up would be obligated to give hiring preference to the AZ workers, albeit at starting wages. Of course, there would not be a position for everyone, but at least the government would have tried to start something that gave AZ workers the hope of a new life.
 
Blerg
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:18 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:

Isn't that what Berlusconi did with the current AZ a few years ago... and look where we've returned to now.

Honestly, I wish the govt. had the guts to close the whole thing down or at least put all the unnecessary staff on casa instagazzuone and be done with it. It's far cheaper to pay people to sit at home than to continue operating into this infinite black hole.
.

Cassa integrazione would cost 3 times more than to continue to operate and that's before you measure the economical impact. If you account for indirect jobs, more than 20.000 jobs hang in the balance.

Remember also that AZ is the main operator at a few secondary airports in Italy, such as AHO, CAG, CTA, PMO, REG and TRS. Sure, they get subsidies to fly AHO and CAG, but without AZ, those airports would have too little traffic to justify staying open in the winter, and LCC's would have to carry a heavier burden to keep the airport operating, meabing higher fees and LCC's escaping.



What I don't understand here is why we're assuming that AZ workers would be completely helpless after layoffs. In the US for example, people that were laid off after 9-11 went and found a number of jobs doing other things. Theoretically, people lose their jobs all the time, and for better or worse, it is their responsibility to manage their careers, even if that means giving them financial support for a couple of years until they find something.

Meanwhile, I think the Italian government should concurrently be working to find someone who would be willing to found a new carrier that could replicate AZ's routes where they have over a certain amount of market share. Financing for the start-up could be offered at 0% for a number of years. After the current AZ ceased operations, the start-up would be obligated to give hiring preference to the AZ workers, albeit at starting wages. Of course, there would not be a position for everyone, but at least the government would have tried to start something that gave AZ workers the hope of a new life.


Because many of Alitalia employees are unemployable in the aviation industry. They only work there because of some private connection.
 
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:09 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:

Isn't that what Berlusconi did with the current AZ a few years ago... and look where we've returned to now.

Honestly, I wish the govt. had the guts to close the whole thing down or at least put all the unnecessary staff on casa instagazzuone and be done with it. It's far cheaper to pay people to sit at home than to continue operating into this infinite black hole.
.

Cassa integrazione would cost 3 times more than to continue to operate and that's before you measure the economical impact. If you account for indirect jobs, more than 20.000 jobs hang in the balance.

Remember also that AZ is the main operator at a few secondary airports in Italy, such as AHO, CAG, CTA, PMO, REG and TRS. Sure, they get subsidies to fly AHO and CAG, but without AZ, those airports would have too little traffic to justify staying open in the winter, and LCC's would have to carry a heavier burden to keep the airport operating, meabing higher fees and LCC's escaping.



What I don't understand here is why we're assuming that AZ workers would be completely helpless after layoffs. In the US for example, people that were laid off after 9-11 went and found a number of jobs doing other things. Theoretically, people lose their jobs all the time, and for better or worse, it is their responsibility to manage their careers, even if that means giving them financial support for a couple of years until they find something.

Meanwhile, I think the Italian government should concurrently be working to find someone who would be willing to found a new carrier that could replicate AZ's routes where they have over a certain amount of market share. Financing for the start-up could be ooffered at 0% for a number of years. After the current AZ ceased operations, the start-up would be obligated to give hiring preference to the AZ workers, albeit at starting wages. Of course, there would not be a position for everyone, but at least the government would have tried to start something that gave AZ workers the hope of a new life.


It's not easy to find a salary position in Italy, especially in the South. Pilots, cabin crew, techicians, yield management, flight planning, operations, catering, etc... they are all technical and specific jobs that you can't find anywhere compared to universal jobs like pharmacist, doctor, teacher, horeca worker, butcher, etc... So it means moving to get the same job, or learning a new trade in which you have to compete with often more experienced people.

Also what you describe about founding a new carrier is similar to how this Alitalia came to be. We can also find similar stories elsewhere, for instance Sabena/Brussels Airlines, where Brussels Airlines is still struggling although under private ownership and with limited subsidies. The Sabena story also proves that abandoning a major national carrier is a bad idea, not only from a social standpoint, but also because of the huge impact on the economy.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:05 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
.

Cassa integrazione would cost 3 times more than to continue to operate and that's before you measure the economical impact. If you account for indirect jobs, more than 20.000 jobs hang in the balance.

Remember also that AZ is the main operator at a few secondary airports in Italy, such as AHO, CAG, CTA, PMO, REG and TRS. Sure, they get subsidies to fly AHO and CAG, but without AZ, those airports would have too little traffic to justify staying open in the winter, and LCC's would have to carry a heavier burden to keep the airport operating, meabing higher fees and LCC's escaping.



What I don't understand here is why we're assuming that AZ workers would be completely helpless after layoffs. In the US for example, people that were laid off after 9-11 went and found a number of jobs doing other things. Theoretically, people lose their jobs all the time, and for better or worse, it is their responsibility to manage their careers, even if that means giving them financial support for a couple of years until they find something.

Meanwhile, I think the Italian government should concurrently be working to find someone who would be willing to found a new carrier that could replicate AZ's routes where they have over a certain amount of market share. Financing for the start-up could be ooffered at 0% for a number of years. After the current AZ ceased operations, the start-up would be obligated to give hiring preference to the AZ workers, albeit at starting wages. Of course, there would not be a position for everyone, but at least the government would have tried to start something that gave AZ workers the hope of a new life.


It's not easy to find a salary position in Italy, especially in the South. Pilots, cabin crew, techicians, yield management, flight planning, operations, catering, etc... they are all technical and specific jobs that you can't find anywhere compared to universal jobs like pharmacist, doctor, teacher, horeca worker, butcher, etc... So it means moving to get the same job, or learning a new trade in which you have to compete with often more experienced people.

Also what you describe about founding a new carrier is similar to how this Alitalia came to be. We can also find similar stories elsewhere, for instance Sabena/Brussels Airlines, where Brussels Airlines is still struggling although under private ownership and with limited subsidies. The Sabena story also proves that abandoning a major national carrier is a bad idea, not only from a social standpoint, but also because of the huge impact on the economy.


US airline employees have always been in the same position, and most of them do just fine in life after being laid off. Many of them have also moved across the country to keep their position with a carrier and have simply dealt with the change. I get the impression that Italians are incapable of accepting the hardships of capitalism. They sound weak and entitled when they cling to a situation that is untenable. Airlines are not static enterprises; they grow and shrink according to market conditions. That means heads are going to roll once in a while. If the Italian economy cannot deal with that situation, that means Italians did not choose the right people to lead their economy. At some point in life, you have to take responsibility for your own voting behavior, and the US is currently discovering that in a very painful way.

Meanwhile, I agree that Sabena is a good example of the creation of new airlines out of old ones, however I do not see how the Belgian economy suffered as a result. Sabena would have never made it on its own without the help of Swissair, which also went under. Many employees from Sabena and Swissair found jobs with what is now Brussels Airlines and Swiss, and there are now many other carriers hiring its citizens. These carriers would have never survived unless new carriers had been created to take their place, even if SN and LX are having a hard time financially in a market saturated with low-cost carriers.
 
Waterbomber2
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A

Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:56 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:


What I don't understand here is why we're assuming that AZ workers would be completely helpless after layoffs. In the US for example, people that were laid off after 9-11 went and found a number of jobs doing other things. Theoretically, people lose their jobs all the time, and for better or worse, it is their responsibility to manage their careers, even if that means giving them financial support for a couple of years until they find something.

Meanwhile, I think the Italian government should concurrently be working to find someone who would be willing to found a new carrier that could replicate AZ's routes where they have over a certain amount of market share. Financing for the start-up could be ooffered at 0% for a number of years. After the current AZ ceased operations, the start-up would be obligated to give hiring preference to the AZ workers, albeit at starting wages. Of course, there would not be a position for everyone, but at least the government would have tried to start something that gave AZ workers the hope of a new life.


It's not easy to find a salary position in Italy, especially in the South. Pilots, cabin crew, techicians, yield management, flight planning, operations, catering, etc... they are all technical and specific jobs that you can't find anywhere compared to universal jobs like pharmacist, doctor, teacher, horeca worker, butcher, etc... So it means moving to get the same job, or learning a new trade in which you have to compete with often more experienced people.

Also what you describe about founding a new carrier is similar to how this Alitalia came to be. We can also find similar stories elsewhere, for instance Sabena/Brussels Airlines, where Brussels Airlines is still struggling although under private ownership and with limited subsidies. The Sabena story also proves that abandoning a major national carrier is a bad idea, not only from a social standpoint, but also because of the huge impact on the economy.


US airline employees have always been in the same position, and most of them do just fine in life after being laid off. Many of them have also moved across the country to keep their position with a carrier and have simply dealt with the change. I get the impression that Italians are incapable of accepting the hardships of capitalism. They sound weak and entitled when they cling to a situation that is untenable. Airlines are not static enterprises; they grow and shrink according to market conditions. That means heads are going to roll once in a while. If the Italian economy cannot deal with that situation, that means Italians did not choose the right people to lead their economy. At some point in life, you have to take responsibility for your own voting behavior, and the US is currently discovering that in a very painful way.

Meanwhile, I agree that Sabena is a good example of the creation of new airlines out of old ones, however I do not see how the Belgian economy suffered as a result. Sabena would have never made it on its own without the help of Swissair, which also went under. Many employees from Sabena and Swissair found jobs with what is now Brussels Airlines and Swiss, and there are now many other carriers hiring its citizens. These carriers would have never survived unless new carriers had been created to take their place, even if SN and LX are having a hard time financially in a market saturated with low-cost carriers.



About how people fair after a major job loss, you can always say that people will peddle along, but the reality is that behind it, there are foreclosures, people losing their homes, etc...
It's one thing to move to another airline/airport within the U.S., it's another to have to move to another country from Italy, because there simply aren't many airlines/airports in Italy.
In any case, this is a flashback to 2008 when DHL cut 9500 jobs in the U.S. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dhl- ... 5Y20081111

"At the General Denver Hotel and Grille in Wilmington’s quaint downtown, the 17 staff members have volunteered to take a reduction in pay, to cut their hours — anything to help the inn survive what is going to be a brutal decline in business.
“We’ve been trying to figure out how much business (will be lost),” said owner Molly Dullea, 51. “It’s probably a good 30 percent — it could be the amount that would close our doors.”"

These realities are no different in Wilmington, Ohio or Fiumicino, Italy.

I think that people need to face reality. There can't be capitalism in a nation without a basic transportation infrastructure.
Killing AZ will kill the automotive, fashion and tourism industries.

I think that if you want to spell out a lesson about capitalism, Italians will happily refer you to how Marchionne turned around Chrysler.What the Americans couldn't run properly, Fiat management has turned around into a successful company again, leveraging maximum commonality between the two companies.

Trenitalia is one of the few profitable railway companies in Europe, Poste Italiane is one of the most profitable postal companies in Europe.
I think that the current politicians regardless of parties, are doing a very good job, certainly compared to past generations of corrupted politicians.

I think that Italy will leave the EU before they will accept to forfeit Alitalia, so I suggest to let that thought go.
IMO divesting from AZ and "let the free market handle it" is the wrong strategy. Investing more in aviation is the smarter strategy, and IMO Italy needs to rethink if they want to focus on major cities or bring the traffic back to the regions. There are about 30 abandoned regional airports in Italy serving smaller cities that are more than 3 hours driving from a major airport.
I think that there is significant substance for success in what Sardinia wants to do in their new Continuita Territoriale strategy and more regions should initiate similar undertakings.
https://www.lanuovasardegna.it/regione/ ... refresh_ce
 
hinckley
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Re: A

Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:55 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Killing AZ will kill the automotive, fashion and tourism industries.

lol

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I think that if you want to spell out a lesson about capitalism, Italians will happily refer you to how Marchionne turned around Chrysler.What the Americans couldn't run properly, Fiat management has turned around into a successful company again, leveraging maximum commonality between the two companies.

Sergio Marchionne -
Born 1952, Chieti, Italy
Emigrated to Canada, 1965
Educated at St. Michael's College School, University of Toronto, University of Windsor and York University
Canadian certified general accountant, barrister and a fellow of the Certified General Accountants of Ontario
So, ya, a true Italian success story. lol

As another poster stated, we Americans made a terrible choice in 2016 and we're paying the price for it - admittedly. Oh to live in a country where no one's responsible for anything. lol
 
Blerg
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:48 am

usdcaguy wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:


What I don't understand here is why we're assuming that AZ workers would be completely helpless after layoffs. In the US for example, people that were laid off after 9-11 went and found a number of jobs doing other things. Theoretically, people lose their jobs all the time, and for better or worse, it is their responsibility to manage their careers, even if that means giving them financial support for a couple of years until they find something.

Meanwhile, I think the Italian government should concurrently be working to find someone who would be willing to found a new carrier that could replicate AZ's routes where they have over a certain amount of market share. Financing for the start-up could be ooffered at 0% for a number of years. After the current AZ ceased operations, the start-up would be obligated to give hiring preference to the AZ workers, albeit at starting wages. Of course, there would not be a position for everyone, but at least the government would have tried to start something that gave AZ workers the hope of a new life.


It's not easy to find a salary position in Italy, especially in the South. Pilots, cabin crew, techicians, yield management, flight planning, operations, catering, etc... they are all technical and specific jobs that you can't find anywhere compared to universal jobs like pharmacist, doctor, teacher, horeca worker, butcher, etc... So it means moving to get the same job, or learning a new trade in which you have to compete with often more experienced people.

Also what you describe about founding a new carrier is similar to how this Alitalia came to be. We can also find similar stories elsewhere, for instance Sabena/Brussels Airlines, where Brussels Airlines is still struggling although under private ownership and with limited subsidies. The Sabena story also proves that abandoning a major national carrier is a bad idea, not only from a social standpoint, but also because of the huge impact on the economy.


US airline employees have always been in the same position, and most of them do just fine in life after being laid off. Many of them have also moved across the country to keep their position with a carrier and have simply dealt with the change. I get the impression that Italians are incapable of accepting the hardships of capitalism. They sound weak and entitled when they cling to a situation that is untenable. Airlines are not static enterprises; they grow and shrink according to market conditions. That means heads are going to roll once in a while. If the Italian economy cannot deal with that situation, that means Italians did not choose the right people to lead their economy. At some point in life, you have to take responsibility for your own voting behavior, and the US is currently discovering that in a very painful way.

Meanwhile, I agree that Sabena is a good example of the creation of new airlines out of old ones, however I do not see how the Belgian economy suffered as a result. Sabena would have never made it on its own without the help of Swissair, which also went under. Many employees from Sabena and Swissair found jobs with what is now Brussels Airlines and Swiss, and there are now many other carriers hiring its citizens. These carriers would have never survived unless new carriers had been created to take their place, even if SN and LX are having a hard time financially in a market saturated with low-cost carriers.


You are obviously clueless about Europe as a continent if you are comparing it to the US. If someone moves from Atlanta to Chicago he is still in the same country, they speak the same language, celebrate the same holidays... if an Italian moves from Rome to Germany to let's say work for Eurowings, he is going to be faced with a new culture, new language, new religion and most importantly he is going to a country that has negative opinions about Italians, similar to the ones you presented us with in your comment.

So for many Italians moving abroad is not an option. Not to mention that moving from Italy to pretty much anywhere in Europe would be a downgrade. ;)
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:03 am

Blerg wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:

It's not easy to find a salary position in Italy, especially in the South. Pilots, cabin crew, techicians, yield management, flight planning, operations, catering, etc... they are all technical and specific jobs that you can't find anywhere compared to universal jobs like pharmacist, doctor, teacher, horeca worker, butcher, etc... So it means moving to get the same job, or learning a new trade in which you have to compete with often more experienced people.

Also what you describe about founding a new carrier is similar to how this Alitalia came to be. We can also find similar stories elsewhere, for instance Sabena/Brussels Airlines, where Brussels Airlines is still struggling although under private ownership and with limited subsidies. The Sabena story also proves that abandoning a major national carrier is a bad idea, not only from a social standpoint, but also because of the huge impact on the economy.


US airline employees have always been in the same position, and most of them do just fine in life after being laid off. Many of them have also moved across the country to keep their position with a carrier and have simply dealt with the change. I get the impression that Italians are incapable of accepting the hardships of capitalism. They sound weak and entitled when they cling to a situation that is untenable. Airlines are not static enterprises; they grow and shrink according to market conditions. That means heads are going to roll once in a while. If the Italian economy cannot deal with that situation, that means Italians did not choose the right people to lead their economy. At some point in life, you have to take responsibility for your own voting behavior, and the US is currently discovering that in a very painful way.

Meanwhile, I agree that Sabena is a good example of the creation of new airlines out of old ones, however I do not see how the Belgian economy suffered as a result. Sabena would have never made it on its own without the help of Swissair, which also went under. Many employees from Sabena and Swissair found jobs with what is now Brussels Airlines and Swiss, and there are now many other carriers hiring its citizens. These carriers would have never survived unless new carriers had been created to take their place, even if SN and LX are having a hard time financially in a market saturated with low-cost carriers.


You are obviously clueless about Europe as a continent if you are comparing it to the US. If someone moves from Atlanta to Chicago he is still in the same country, they speak the same language, celebrate the same holidays... if an Italian moves from Rome to Germany to let's say work for Eurowings, he is going to be faced with a new culture, new language, new religion and most importantly he is going to a country that has negative opinions about Italians, similar to the ones you presented us with in your comment.

So for many Italians moving abroad is not an option. Not to mention that moving from Italy to pretty much anywhere in Europe would be a downgrade. ;)


Actually, I was referring to the fact that AZ workers might find jobs in other places in Italy, such as with Air Italy in Sardinia. Other carriers would increase operations in Rome once AZ closed up shop, so it’s not as though there wouldn’t be any airline jobs whatsoever.
 
fraT
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:12 am

Blerg wrote:

You are obviously clueless about Europe as a continent if you are comparing it to the US. If someone moves from Atlanta to Chicago he is still in the same country, they speak the same language, celebrate the same holidays... if an Italian moves from Rome to Germany to let's say work for Eurowings, he is going to be faced with a new culture, new language, new religion and most importantly he is going to a country that has negative opinions about Italians, similar to the ones you presented us with in your comment.

So for many Italians moving abroad is not an option. Not to mention that moving from Italy to pretty much anywhere in Europe would be a downgrade. ;)


Not sure who is clueless here...
Germany having a different religion than Italy, come on you should know better.
And we have many Italians living here for decades. And in contrast to issues with people from some other countries/religions which definitely exist in Germany as in most other countries in Europe, Italians are integrated very well into the society even if they speak little German.
I agree that it still is a bigger move than one within the US (or within any other country), but a move within the EU is definitely not such a big thing. But if you got into your position because Daddy is some kind of big shot in Italian politics, than you might have a problem finding a similar job outside of AZ.
 
Blerg
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:26 am

fraT wrote:
Blerg wrote:

You are obviously clueless about Europe as a continent if you are comparing it to the US. If someone moves from Atlanta to Chicago he is still in the same country, they speak the same language, celebrate the same holidays... if an Italian moves from Rome to Germany to let's say work for Eurowings, he is going to be faced with a new culture, new language, new religion and most importantly he is going to a country that has negative opinions about Italians, similar to the ones you presented us with in your comment.

So for many Italians moving abroad is not an option. Not to mention that moving from Italy to pretty much anywhere in Europe would be a downgrade. ;)


Not sure who is clueless here...
Germany having a different religion than Italy, come on you should know better.
And we have many Italians living here for decades. And in contrast to issues with people from some other countries/religions which definitely exist in Germany as in most other countries in Europe, Italians are integrated very well into the society even if they speak little German.
I agree that it still is a bigger move than one within the US (or within any other country), but a move within the EU is definitely not such a big thing. But if you got into your position because Daddy is some kind of big shot in Italian politics, than you might have a problem finding a similar job outside of AZ.


Like it or not religion has played a major role in shaping the culture of today's European nations. Someone who has grown up in a predominantly Catholic country such as Italy will have a culture shock if he moves to northern Germany or even to places which are to the east (historic Prussia). I come from a country that has a massive population in Germany and which is mostly integrated but they still struggle with many things, especially those of character. There is a rift between East and West, North and South and it was never more apparent than during the recent economic crisis, especially when looking at German attitude towards Greece and its economic struggles.

It might not be such a big thing for you but the EU did state that intra-EU mobility is still low and that people don't move around as much as they would like them to. So I still think that most Italians would chose not to leave Italy if they didn't have to.

'Overall, intra-EU mobility has increased strongly. Just under 4% of EU citizens of working age (20-64) now reside in another member state than that of their citizenship. This is approximately the double of the number at the beginning of the century. This average number, however, hides very large differences across countries. The proportions of own nationals of working age living abroad ranges from 1.0% in Germany to close to 20% in Romania'

https://www.econpol.eu/opinion_17
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:13 am

usdcaguy wrote:
Blerg wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:

US airline employees have always been in the same position, and most of them do just fine in life after being laid off. Many of them have also moved across the country to keep their position with a carrier and have simply dealt with the change. I get the impression that Italians are incapable of accepting the hardships of capitalism. They sound weak and entitled when they cling to a situation that is untenable. Airlines are not static enterprises; they grow and shrink according to market conditions. That means heads are going to roll once in a while. If the Italian economy cannot deal with that situation, that means Italians did not choose the right people to lead their economy. At some point in life, you have to take responsibility for your own voting behavior, and the US is currently discovering that in a very painful way.

Meanwhile, I agree that Sabena is a good example of the creation of new airlines out of old ones, however I do not see how the Belgian economy suffered as a result. Sabena would have never made it on its own without the help of Swissair, which also went under. Many employees from Sabena and Swissair found jobs with what is now Brussels Airlines and Swiss, and there are now many other carriers hiring its citizens. These carriers would have never survived unless new carriers had been created to take their place, even if SN and LX are having a hard time financially in a market saturated with low-cost carriers.


You are obviously clueless about Europe as a continent if you are comparing it to the US. If someone moves from Atlanta to Chicago he is still in the same country, they speak the same language, celebrate the same holidays... if an Italian moves from Rome to Germany to let's say work for Eurowings, he is going to be faced with a new culture, new language, new religion and most importantly he is going to a country that has negative opinions about Italians, similar to the ones you presented us with in your comment.

So for many Italians moving abroad is not an option. Not to mention that moving from Italy to pretty much anywhere in Europe would be a downgrade. ;)


Actually, I was referring to the fact that AZ workers might find jobs in other places in Italy, such as with Air Italy in Sardinia. Other carriers would increase operations in Rome once AZ closed up shop, so it’s not as though there wouldn’t be any airline jobs whatsoever.


You would do well to do some research before you participate in this thread. Air Italy, former Meridiana, has been sending staff on welfare since forever, costing the taxpayer hundreds of millions.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.lanuov ... 94330/amp/

They still have former staff on welfare since 2011, can you imagine?

They even put staff on welfare to hire new staff with worse contracts through the sister company:
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/doc ... l?redirect

America in a sentence:
"Greeeeed is gooooood."
Gordon Gekko

If corporate America is capitalism with their cute little scope clauses, Europe and Itały is way past capitalism, it's a lawless jungle. No scope clauses, no benefits, no 401K, pilots paying to fly, pilots paying for type training, earning 1/3 rd of their American colleagues while living in cities that are more expensive, shifting bases everytime the CEO has something to complain about a base.
Ever heard of Ryanair?

Italy in a sentence:
"Oooooeeeeoooooooeeooo."
Tarzan.
 
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lesfalls
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:46 pm

Blerg wrote:
fraT wrote:
Blerg wrote:

You are obviously clueless about Europe as a continent if you are comparing it to the US. If someone moves from Atlanta to Chicago he is still in the same country, they speak the same language, celebrate the same holidays... if an Italian moves from Rome to Germany to let's say work for Eurowings, he is going to be faced with a new culture, new language, new religion and most importantly he is going to a country that has negative opinions about Italians, similar to the ones you presented us with in your comment.

So for many Italians moving abroad is not an option. Not to mention that moving from Italy to pretty much anywhere in Europe would be a downgrade. ;)


Not sure who is clueless here...
Germany having a different religion than Italy, come on you should know better.
And we have many Italians living here for decades. And in contrast to issues with people from some other countries/religions which definitely exist in Germany as in most other countries in Europe, Italians are integrated very well into the society even if they speak little German.
I agree that it still is a bigger move than one within the US (or within any other country), but a move within the EU is definitely not such a big thing. But if you got into your position because Daddy is some kind of big shot in Italian politics, than you might have a problem finding a similar job outside of AZ.


Like it or not religion has played a major role in shaping the culture of today's European nations. Someone who has grown up in a predominantly Catholic country such as Italy will have a culture shock if he moves to northern Germany or even to places which are to the east (historic Prussia). I come from a country that has a massive population in Germany and which is mostly integrated but they still struggle with many things, especially those of character. There is a rift between East and West, North and South and it was never more apparent than during the recent economic crisis, especially when looking at German attitude towards Greece and its economic struggles.

It might not be such a big thing for you but the EU did state that intra-EU mobility is still low and that people don't move around as much as they would like them to. So I still think that most Italians would chose not to leave Italy if they didn't have to.

'Overall, intra-EU mobility has increased strongly. Just under 4% of EU citizens of working age (20-64) now reside in another member state than that of their citizenship. This is approximately the double of the number at the beginning of the century. This average number, however, hides very large differences across countries. The proportions of own nationals of working age living abroad ranges from 1.0% in Germany to close to 20% in Romania'

https://www.econpol.eu/opinion_17


This.

As international and gifted it is to be an EU citizen, we have not become the continent yet that truly permits the possibility to simply move to different countries. Many jobs still need you to speak the local language which limits people to move to different countries easily. If it changes to English being the main language in the European workplace, then the amount of EU citizens living in other EU countries will rise significantly. In addition a good example to show that restarting an airline to actually "create" new jobs and economic growth is LH. They always have a job open, or at least an internship which generally leads then to a full time job as much as Lufthansa is firing and slashing its staff account across the world (and for many years too). AZ on the other hand hasn't hired people in years as many new aircraft they get or growth they see (Ex: addition of 777-300s into the fleet). These jobs at Lufthansa also see only 5-40 applicants while a job at AZ (in 50 year time) or any typical job in Italy will see 300-1000 applicants which really just shows the ego that Italians have about themselves.

Having lived both in the U.S and Europe (Spain), if it wasn't for all the benefits that Europeans receive when working at a company there would be no unemployment rate nor the idea of "working in the black" in Southern Europe. Southern European Start-ups are slowly changing that (Madrid is N4 in Europe for Start-ups while Barcelona is N5 now) but still I suppose that really is the background to the lack of new carriers in Italy while Spain has a higher success rate with new airlines with carriers like Volotea, Vueling and Iberia (privatized and been profitable since then). In the end Italy is stuck in the past and other Southern-European countries will surpass it in terms of innovation in a number of years. I doubt we will ever see the end of Alitalia. It will be considered a miracle by the Italian people if it actually gets privatised or even changed at least.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen mehr.
 
bennett123
Posts: 9382
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Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:26 pm

Which benefits in particular.
 
FatCat
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Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:06 am

A well written newspaper article, not behind a paywall: https://www.corriere.it/cronache/19_dic ... 0b20.shtml
It's in italian, but Chrome's automatic translation will work just fine.

Not fresh news, really: LH's interest - as I said multiple times - is limited to the passenger & cargo operations ( not the maintenance, not the ground services ) and the Germans will also shrink - for the moment - the fleet and the routes, cutting off those who generate small income. About 4700 persons will be laid off.

AZ's special commissioner has not yet met nor LH nor DL ( this is indeed surprising ).
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
crazy
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:33 am

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:14 am

A single administrator for Alitalia now, replacing the three previous administrators.
Now he will reorganize the airline (less airplanes, less employees, less routes, less ground and inflight crew) then everything will restart for the "new airline" sell: even Air France is interested (again...).
 
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DL747400
Posts: 865
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: Alitalia bankruptcy and selling process discussion thread

Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:10 pm

crazy wrote:
A single administrator for Alitalia now, replacing the three previous administrators.
Now he will reorganize the airline (less airplanes, less employees, less routes, less ground and inflight crew) then everything will restart for the "new airline" sell: even Air France is interested (again...).


This is Italy and AZ we're talking about, so I will believe it when I see it. This is what the previous court appointed administrators should have started with in order to make the airline more attractive to outside investors. Instead, they deliberately chose to avoid making the difficult, controversial decisions and cuts because they didn't want to take the heat. They thought it better to sit on their hands and let a potential buyer or group of investors to do the dirty work and take the hit. To date, those repeated decisions to avoid meaningful action have resulted in one failure after another. They failed to sell AZ or to even close a deal with one or more investors in a reorganized AZ. What makes anyone think that this administrator will be any different?
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