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ricardofg
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:13 pm

They really should bury the name Alitalia
Rebrand completely. ITA should be a fresh new start. Same old name, same old story
 
IADFCO
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:31 pm

ricardofg wrote:
They really should bury the name Alitalia
Rebrand completely. ITA should be a fresh new start. Same old name, same old story


I completely disagree. They should preserve the name and the external image and focus on better service instead.
 
aviator2000
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:03 pm

IADFCO wrote:
ricardofg wrote:
They really should bury the name Alitalia
Rebrand completely. ITA should be a fresh new start. Same old name, same old story


I completely disagree. They should preserve the name and the external image and focus on better service instead.

With the bad image they've currently got in the market, I do think a new name and brand would be positive for the airline.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:22 pm

Creating a new brand in multiple countries and ensuring its widespread recognition is VERY expensive and takes a LOT of time. Outside the aviation industry, is Alitalia's brand really that bad ? Ryanair may have a dubious image, but until Covid, they didn't need to worry too much about what avgeeks thought of them...
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:18 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Creating a new brand in multiple countries and ensuring its widespread recognition is VERY expensive and takes a LOT of time. Outside the aviation industry, is Alitalia's brand really that bad ?

Short answer: undeniably yes, it's that bad... even out of aviation industry Italians think it's bad.
 
vahancrazy
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:06 pm

Alitalia is the representation of everything bad in Italian society!
 
hloutweg
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:44 pm

Alitalia, playing soon at Teatro alla Scala di Milano
In Varietate Concordia
 
IrishLessor
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:47 pm

So ITA is going to be the new Alitalia. A fresh start, a new beginning. However, couple of questions:
- Will they have to TUPE Alitalia staff to ITA, surely it has obligations in this regard under EU law?
- What will change if the government is in charge, governments don't have a good track record with running airlines.

My thoughts :
- ITA is to be full service. However, I think this target should be value carrier and like Aer Lingus build a future business around key long haul markets with strong SH feed through one or two key hubs, in AZ case FCO and MXP.
- short-haul is challenging for all legacy carriers especially in the face of LCCs, that's not going to change. However reduced costs and strong KPIs for punctuality, good schedule for the business traveller and great service in a value carrier style will deliver could a premium fare above lcc and that coupled with the feef for long hual could make a short haul operation work.
- MXP has to be the airport for Milan, this underpins the Long haul business. Operate selected flights from LIN at frequency on a case by case basis eg LCY and other business orientated routes.

Clearly delivering a cost base at par with other airlines is necessary, ie other value carriers... I'm not convinced with the current limited information that ITA is just a case of rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.
 
dynamo12
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:07 pm

IADFCO wrote:

In my opinion the Covid19 experience has shown how important it is to have a national airline. You cannot let the O'Leary of the world dictate what cities in your country will have a minimum of airline service during emergencies, or what skeleton international network will remain available.


If you don't think O'Leary would happily take money to deliver whatever essential air service you want (far more cheaply then a full service Alitalia flying empty) then I don't know what to say.

Many countries already do this successfully with routes no one would otherwise service (EAS in the states?)
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:45 pm

More than the cost base, or the brand name, they need a well-defined strategy.

Are they going to live off Italy being a leisure destination?
Are they going to focus on business routes?
Are they going to focus on long haul demand?
Are they going to focus on building a domestic network?
Are they going to be a network carrier with a single hub and focus cities or a free-floating carrier that meets the demand where it is?

An airline can be a combination of the above, but they need a strong main backbone that works.
Not a bit of everything that results in nothing.

I doubt that they'll find the right strategy.

I think that there is only one strategy that can make AZ profitable and a thriving airline but I doubt that they or anyone here would understand it even if I explained it 2000 times, so I'm not even going to try.
Many did not understand when I said that Air Italy should stop their MXP adventure and revert to OLB and progressively build a hub there. If you take it at face value, you don t see the merits of course, but they did go bust, didn't they? Apparently the losses were staggering, mid-way 9 digits once they started expanding in MXP.
There is a reason why Giuseppe Gentile wants to launch his newco out of OLB and more broadly Sardinia but I'm not sure that he understands the long haul part of that strategy.

The boring and inefficient point A to point B to point A way of operating does not work for Italy.
 
AMP44
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:59 pm

Trying to rebrand the airline will be more expensive (not only financially) to the airline than keeping the Alitalia brand. Several airlines have been able to turn themselves around without having to ditch their legacy brand name.

Outside the avgeek community, even with the management disaster that Alitalia is, the airline is still seen as a beacon of Italian quality in the air. They have been using that "Made in Italy" way of service for a while and they keep true to it. I dare say that Alitalia in long haul business is superior to other large European airlines. Hopefully they find a way of keeping the quality of their product going forward.
 
IrishLessor
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:09 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
More than the cost base, or the brand name, they need a well-defined strategy.

Are they going to live off Italy being a leisure destination?
Are they going to focus on business routes?
Are they going to focus on long haul demand?
Are they going to focus on building a domestic network?
Are they going to be a network carrier with a single hub and focus cities or a free-floating carrier that meets the demand where it is?

An airline can be a combination of the above, but they need a strong main backbone that works.
Not a bit of everything that results in nothing.

I doubt that they'll find the right strategy.

I think that there is only one strategy that can make AZ profitable and a thriving airline but I doubt that they or anyone here would understand it even if I explained it 2000 times, so I'm not even going to try.
Many did not understand when I said that Air Italy should stop their MXP adventure and revert to OLB and progressively build a hub there. If you take it at face value, you don t see the merits of course, but they did go bust, didn't they? Apparently the losses were staggering, mid-way 9 digits once they started expanding in MXP.
There is a reason why Giuseppe Gentile wants to launch his newco out of OLB and more broadly Sardinia but I'm not sure that he understands the long haul part of that strategy.

The boring and inefficient point A to point B to point A way of operating does not work for Italy.


Naturally, and the point is making is a strategic one.
Become a carrier, I cited Aer Lingus as a bench mark to work towards. Making long haul the priority, supporting an SH market. Short schedules to feed long haul and also key business sector. All of this has to be underpinned by an underlying by a relevant cost base.

There is a huge amount of discussuon about what they shouldn't do and what they get wrong, that's clear but very little strong suggestions as far as I can see...
 
IADFCO
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:31 am

dynamo12 wrote:
IADFCO wrote:

In my opinion the Covid19 experience has shown how important it is to have a national airline. You cannot let the O'Leary of the world dictate what cities in your country will have a minimum of airline service during emergencies, or what skeleton international network will remain available.


If you don't think O'Leary would happily take money to deliver whatever essential air service you want (far more cheaply then a full service Alitalia flying empty) then I don't know what to say.

Many countries already do this successfully with routes no one would otherwise service (EAS in the states?)


You cannot be dependent for strategic national priorities on what side of the bed someone like MOL wakes up. You may well decide that this is not a national priority, but that's another story.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:06 pm

bennett123 wrote:
https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Alitalia.htm

With an average age of 14.1 years and nothing new on order, it seems likely that they will continue to shrink.

The A321 in particular being progressively scrapped.


upthread, many moons (maybe even years?) ago, this was discussed as a possible "Comair scenario" for Alitalia: the fleet progressively ages, the government allows itself to be milked for cash to keep the lights on at Alitalia, but refuses to finance aircraft purchase.

This way, the government of the day avoids taking excessive flak from entrenched interests at Alitalia for "being heartless destroyers of livelihoods" (because lights are on, bills and wages are paid). And the can is kicked down the road.
On the other hand, the government of the day avoids looking like profligate idiots, who buy shiny new toys for an airline, that cannot get its act together. This way, they exercise restraint and look serious to more fiscally conservative (or otherwise fed up) electorate.

Give it a few more years, and the airline will begin to naturally expire -- planes will be progressively retired, flight crews on expensive contracts will be progressively retired. Then, the government of the day (a few governments from now) will have a choice what to do with smaller Alitalia, with some decades of consistent losses.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
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readytotaxi
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:18 pm

The Brand name/worth is only as good as your last experience of it, you tell your friends.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:39 pm

ITA – Italia Trasporto Aereo will pay EUR €220 million to acquire the assets of Alitalia deemed crucial for the new operation, including branding, MilleMiglia loyalty program, and aiport slots.

https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziend ... 1f26.shtml
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
bennett123
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:18 pm

I notice that is a Public Company.

CEO Fabio Maria Lazzerini ex CCO AZ
President Francesco Caio Chairman of Saipem, an oil and gas services company

An interesting pairing.
 
factsonly
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 04, 2020 3:21 pm

What is AZ's B773 EI-WLA doing at Eindhoven?

- 04 Nov 2020 EIN - FCO AZ9470 B773 EI-WLA
- 04 Nov 2020 FCO - EIN AZ9470 B773 EI-WLA

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ei-wla
 
jetwet1
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:02 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
The Brand name/worth is only as good as your last experience of it, you tell your friends.


That is very true, friends flew with them last year in J and raved about how good they were, this caused others to book with them. We were planning a trip to Florence flying into Rome in January taking Alitalia, those plans have now been shelved of course.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:07 pm

The restructured Alitalia plans to assume operations next April 2021 with 51 planes, EUR3.0 billion in capital, and about 5,000 employees.
The fleet will consist of five E190s, 40 A319s and A320s, six B777. The goal is to double the number of aircraft by 2026.

https://www.air-journal.fr/2020-12-11-n ... 24539.html

The five-year business plan will be present to Parliament on December 21.
mercure f-wtcc
 
MAH4546
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:22 pm

mercure1 wrote:
The restructured Alitalia plans to assume operations next April 2021 with 51 planes, EUR3.0 billion in capital, and about 5,000 employees.
The fleet will consist of five E190s, 40 A319s and A320s, six B777. The goal is to double the number of aircraft by 2026.

https://www.air-journal.fr/2020-12-11-n ... 24539.html

The five-year business plan will be present to Parliament on December 21.


That’s quite a small long haul fleet. Even if you just consider the five core Italy markets - New York, Miami, Tokyo, Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires - doubt you can operate all at daily.
a.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:13 pm

Thats a similar fleet size to smaller airlines such as Brussels airlines or Aer Lingus. I guess it is a safer in the short term since we don't know how the rebound will be.
If the italian government is adventurous enough we will see an order for new frames in the next year or two, the current fleet is getting old and the pride of Italy can't be flying dusty old planes.
 
Blerg
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:59 am

How many employees does AZ have right now? Interesting that the government will most likely fire the excess staff. Will be interesting to see what kind of route network they go for.

Anyone know if top management is staying or if they are changing those as well?
 
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mercure1
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:18 am

Blerg wrote:
How many employees does AZ have right now? Interesting that the government will most likely fire the excess staff. Will be interesting to see what kind of route network they go for.

Anyone know if top management is staying or if they are changing those as well?


If you read this thread you will see yes the company has newly appointed executives and board.

As of May 2020, the group had 11,600 employees, but that included non-core staff from the ground handling division, MRO and other units like CityLiner
mercure f-wtcc
 
Blerg
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:29 am

mercure1 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
How many employees does AZ have right now? Interesting that the government will most likely fire the excess staff. Will be interesting to see what kind of route network they go for.

Anyone know if top management is staying or if they are changing those as well?


If you read this thread you will see yes the company has newly appointed executives and board.

As of May 2020, the group had 11,600 employees, but that included non-core staff from the ground handling division, MRO and other units like CityLiner


I saw that but I meant those others than the board and the high ranking executives? Are they simply transferring the rest of the employees or will they be hiring fresh blood?
 
LifelinerOne
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:45 am

mercure1 wrote:
The restructured Alitalia plans to assume operations next April 2021 with 51 planes, EUR3.0 billion in capital, and about 5,000 employees.
The fleet will consist of five E190s, 40 A319s and A320s, six B777. The goal is to double the number of aircraft by 2026.

https://www.air-journal.fr/2020-12-11-n ... 24539.html

The five-year business plan will be present to Parliament on December 21.


So, where’s the fleet information coming from? That’s not in the article you linked.

Cheers! :wave:
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:54 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
The restructured Alitalia plans to assume operations next April 2021 with 51 planes, EUR3.0 billion in capital, and about 5,000 employees.
The fleet will consist of five E190s, 40 A319s and A320s, six B777. The goal is to double the number of aircraft by 2026.

https://www.air-journal.fr/2020-12-11-n ... 24539.html

The five-year business plan will be present to Parliament on December 21.


That’s quite a small long haul fleet. Even if you just consider the five core Italy markets - New York, Miami, Tokyo, Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires - doubt you can operate all at daily.


It never ceases to amaze how this crap airline manages to survive and live on, largely at the expense of the Italian taxpayer, who has funneled billions into it for decades. The Alitalia brand is actually worth salvaging, as it is widely recognized and a symbol of Italy's post war reconstruction, but it is so incredible to see that with all the changes, everything pretty much remains the same. AZ's best attributes apart from its brand, are its pilots and thus its safety record, one of the best in the world. What was wrecked the airline are its employees and Italy's powerful unions. As for the fleet, to see the 777s remain is interesting. I suppose they're needed for AZ's longest sectors (GRU, EZE, NRT) but these are not the newest of birds, though not old either, with deliveries I think going back to 2002-2004.
 
Fliplot
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:11 pm

If the ALITALIA employees do not drop their general rudeness and laziness then any new iteration will fail. Take a look at IBERIA and note the differences in the old and new versions, especially at the staff levels. No matter what I believe should keep the ALITALIA brand! Just a personal opinion.
 
PRAirbus
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:55 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
The restructured Alitalia plans to assume operations next April 2021 with 51 planes, EUR3.0 billion in capital, and about 5,000 employees.
The fleet will consist of five E190s, 40 A319s and A320s, six B777. The goal is to double the number of aircraft by 2026.

https://www.air-journal.fr/2020-12-11-n ... 24539.html

The five-year business plan will be present to Parliament on December 21.


That’s quite a small long haul fleet. Even if you just consider the five core Italy markets - New York, Miami, Tokyo, Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires - doubt you can operate all at daily.


Where are the A330s going to? All returned? Very few 777s to cover longhaul...interesting.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:08 pm

Fliplot wrote:
If the ALITALIA employees do not drop their general rudeness and laziness then any new iteration will fail. Take a look at IBERIA and note the differences in the old and new versions, especially at the staff levels. No matter what I believe should keep the ALITALIA brand! Just a personal opinion.


Totally agree. It is Alitalia's employees that are its albatross.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:42 pm

Seems the proposed long-haul network will be made up of New York, Los Angeles, Sao Paolo, Buenos Aires and Tokyo

https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziend ... befd.shtml

LifelinerOne wrote:
So, where’s the fleet information coming from? That’s not in the article you linked.


Its posted many media sources including in just linked Corriere article.
mercure f-wtcc
 
flyingcat
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:55 pm

mercure1 wrote:
The restructured Alitalia plans to assume operations next April 2021 with 51 planes, EUR3.0 billion in capital, and about 5,000 employees.
The fleet will consist of five E190s, 40 A319s and A320s, six B777. The goal is to double the number of aircraft by 2026.


Is 5,000 employees very efficient for 51 aircraft or is it still employee heavy??
 
Blerg
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:27 am

How come they are going to be flying to Tokyo? Where is all that demand coming from? I thought they were going to focus more on where expats are.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:44 am

mercure1 wrote:
Seems the proposed long-haul network will be made up of New York, Los Angeles, Sao Paolo, Buenos Aires and Tokyo

https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziend ... befd.shtml

LifelinerOne wrote:
So, where’s the fleet information coming from? That’s not in the article you linked.


Its posted many media sources including in just linked Corriere article.


Los Angeles over Miami seems like a very odd choice.
a.
 
Capricorn
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:26 am

Blerg wrote:
How come they are going to be flying to Tokyo? Where is all that demand coming from? I thought they were going to focus more on where expats are.


They finally got a HND slot and there is no NH or JL as competition in addition to periodically strong tourism demand. Might work for them.
 
AZa346
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:54 am

Capricorn wrote:
Blerg wrote:
How come they are going to be flying to Tokyo? Where is all that demand coming from? I thought they were going to focus more on where expats are.


They finally got a HND slot and there is no NH or JL as competition in addition to periodically strong tourism demand. Might work for them.



Also, Tokyo was one of the two long haul routes, together with JFK, served from MXP as well, so demand must somehow be there!
 
Blerg
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:51 am

So what kind of demand there might be? What kind of business links there are between Italy and Japan? Could there be cargo that plays an important role here?
 
Baruch
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:59 pm

I think that Alitalia's problems are two-fold: lackluster management and structural issues arising from its home country.

The main structural issue in my mind is the situation around Milan's airports - Linate is too small but very convenient, attracting the majority of high-yield traffic, while Malpensa could function as a hub, but is too far from Milan and poorly connected. The disadvantage arising from this situation cannot be overstated. I think that Italy could only have a viable flag carrier if Milan's traffic were consolidated into one airport with long-haul capability, directly connected to a high-speed rail network that would extend its catchment area to most of Northern Italy. Of course other Northern Italian airports would continue to have short- and medium-haul services, but the wider catchment area would make more long-haul routes viable, and combining high-yielding point-to-point traffic with low-yielding feed into the hub would make short-haul less loss-making, and probably viable in the context of the wider network. My conclusion is that even a well-managed Alitalia would not be very successful, in the context of the structural handicap that it suffers from, and that I think is unique in Europe.

Alitalia's management has been lackluster at best for decades, but I cannot understand the rationale behind its latest business plan (or at least fleet decisions). It seems to me that at every round of restructuring, Alitalia shrinks more and more like a wrinkled prune, with an increasing portion of its network made up of short-haul routes. There appears to be a "core" network of domestic and Mediterranean destinations that the airline is not willing to cut and therefore, the airline seems to be forever pivoting towards the super-competitive short-haul market.

Outside of certain domestic routes that seem to make sense, such as connecting various Southern Italian airports (BRI, NAP, SUF, CTA, PMO, CAG etc) to Rome and Northern Italy (LIN, TRN, VCE), what is Alitalia's main business? Do they expect passengers from, say, CTA and VCE to get on an Alitalia flight to FCO, to connect on to ATH, LHR and BCN? Or are they essentially a point-to-point Rome Airlines that just happens to offer connections on the side, where only city pairs need to make sense? If so, how viable is this?
 
nicode
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:06 pm

Will the new Alitalia stay in SkyTeam ?
 
miaintl
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:48 pm

I think Miami is being cut because it was a 330 route. All the cities being retained are the 777 routes. The article did say that Alitalia eventually plans to expand back to 106 aircrafts by 2026, so Miami may still eventually come back within the next five years. Thought I don’t know with what aircraft since Alitalia has said it no longer wants to purchase airbus for long haul.
 
spannacomo
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:35 pm

miaintl wrote:
I think Miami is being cut because it was a 330 route. All the cities being retained are the 777 routes. The article did say that Alitalia eventually plans to expand back to 106 aircrafts by 2026, so Miami may still eventually come back within the next five years. Thought I don’t know with what aircraft since Alitalia has said it no longer wants to purchase airbus for long haul.

They also plan to make a profit so I would not take their plans at face value
 
miaintl
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:38 pm

I wonder what airline will fill the void now on the massive Miami-Italy market? Considering that now Alitalia, Air Italy and AA are no longer offering flights from Italy to Miami. Seems like this will become the biggest unserved market from MIA.
 
marcogr12
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:06 pm

Baruch wrote:
I think that Alitalia's problems are two-fold: lackluster management and structural issues arising from its home country.

The main structural issue in my mind is the situation around Milan's airports - Linate is too small but very convenient, attracting the majority of high-yield traffic, while Malpensa could function as a hub, but is too far from Milan and poorly connected. The disadvantage arising from this situation cannot be overstated. I think that Italy could only have a viable flag carrier if Milan's traffic were consolidated into one airport with long-haul capability, directly connected to a high-speed rail network that would extend its catchment area to most of Northern Italy. Of course other Northern Italian airports would continue to have short- and medium-haul services, but the wider catchment area would make more long-haul routes viable, and combining high-yielding point-to-point traffic with low-yielding feed into the hub would make short-haul less loss-making, and probably viable in the context of the wider network. My conclusion is that even a well-managed Alitalia would not be very successful, in the context of the structural handicap that it suffers from, and that I think is unique in Europe.

Alitalia's management has been lackluster at best for decades, but I cannot understand the rationale behind its latest business plan (or at least fleet decisions). It seems to me that at every round of restructuring, Alitalia shrinks more and more like a wrinkled prune, with an increasing portion of its network made up of short-haul routes. There appears to be a "core" network of domestic and Mediterranean destinations that the airline is not willing to cut and therefore, the airline seems to be forever pivoting towards the super-competitive short-haul market.

Outside of certain domestic routes that seem to make sense, such as connecting various Southern Italian airports (BRI, NAP, SUF, CTA, PMO, CAG etc) to Rome and Northern Italy (LIN, TRN, VCE), what is Alitalia's main business? Do they expect passengers from, say, CTA and VCE to get on an Alitalia flight to FCO, to connect on to ATH, LHR and BCN? Or are they essentially a point-to-point Rome Airlines that just happens to offer connections on the side, where only city pairs need to make sense? If so, how viable is this?


MXP is not poorly connected...On the contrary the Malpensa Express is very reliable and gets you directly into the city connecting with the metropolitana and all the train stations..Alitalia used to carry a lot of transit from the Balkans to Spain, France, the States and Argentina...Now it has cut back on a lot of routes, LCCs have taken over but still it used to offer a very competitive product price-wise compared to more expensive BA,LH etc..We'll see how the umpteenth rescue-plan goes
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
Blerg
Posts: 4532
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:41 am

miaintl wrote:
I wonder what airline will fill the void now on the massive Miami-Italy market? Considering that now Alitalia, Air Italy and AA are no longer offering flights from Italy to Miami. Seems like this will become the biggest unserved market from MIA.


Norwegian. :D
 
Blerg
Posts: 4532
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:44 am

marcogr12 wrote:
Baruch wrote:
I think that Alitalia's problems are two-fold: lackluster management and structural issues arising from its home country.

The main structural issue in my mind is the situation around Milan's airports - Linate is too small but very convenient, attracting the majority of high-yield traffic, while Malpensa could function as a hub, but is too far from Milan and poorly connected. The disadvantage arising from this situation cannot be overstated. I think that Italy could only have a viable flag carrier if Milan's traffic were consolidated into one airport with long-haul capability, directly connected to a high-speed rail network that would extend its catchment area to most of Northern Italy. Of course other Northern Italian airports would continue to have short- and medium-haul services, but the wider catchment area would make more long-haul routes viable, and combining high-yielding point-to-point traffic with low-yielding feed into the hub would make short-haul less loss-making, and probably viable in the context of the wider network. My conclusion is that even a well-managed Alitalia would not be very successful, in the context of the structural handicap that it suffers from, and that I think is unique in Europe.

Alitalia's management has been lackluster at best for decades, but I cannot understand the rationale behind its latest business plan (or at least fleet decisions). It seems to me that at every round of restructuring, Alitalia shrinks more and more like a wrinkled prune, with an increasing portion of its network made up of short-haul routes. There appears to be a "core" network of domestic and Mediterranean destinations that the airline is not willing to cut and therefore, the airline seems to be forever pivoting towards the super-competitive short-haul market.

Outside of certain domestic routes that seem to make sense, such as connecting various Southern Italian airports (BRI, NAP, SUF, CTA, PMO, CAG etc) to Rome and Northern Italy (LIN, TRN, VCE), what is Alitalia's main business? Do they expect passengers from, say, CTA and VCE to get on an Alitalia flight to FCO, to connect on to ATH, LHR and BCN? Or are they essentially a point-to-point Rome Airlines that just happens to offer connections on the side, where only city pairs need to make sense? If so, how viable is this?


MXP is not poorly connected...On the contrary the Malpensa Express is very reliable and gets you directly into the city connecting with the metropolitana and all the train stations..Alitalia used to carry a lot of transit from the Balkans to Spain, France, the States and Argentina...Now it has cut back on a lot of routes, LCCs have taken over but still it used to offer a very competitive product price-wise compared to more expensive BA,LH etc..We'll see how the umpteenth rescue-plan goes


Exactly, for example Alitalia used to be extremely strong in former Yugoslavia when they had their Milan base running. I remember in Belgrade they had triple daily flights plus five weekly to Rome. The moment they cut MXP hub LH stepped in to fill the void. Not just in Belgrade but throughout the region. Makes you wonder if it would cost them less to have tried to save MXP than to have completely cut and suffered the consequences because of it.
 
Baruch
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:27 am

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:43 am

marcogr12 wrote:
MXP is not poorly connected...On the contrary the Malpensa Express is very reliable and gets you directly into the city connecting with the metropolitana and all the train stations..Alitalia used to carry a lot of transit from the Balkans to Spain, France, the States and Argentina...Now it has cut back on a lot of routes, LCCs have taken over but still it used to offer a very competitive product price-wise compared to more expensive BA,LH etc..We'll see how the umpteenth rescue-plan goes


As far as I am aware the Malpensa Express runs every 30 mins, which seems like a much lower frequency than train connections to other major European airports. And on top of it, I don't think you can get anywhere in Northern Italy from MXP, without connecting in Milan (apart from Varese, perhaps). A lot of other European airports are better integrated into the railway network, e.g. if you are travelling from Brussels to CDG, there is a direct connection, same with Rotterdam and AMS, but not between Turin and MXP, as far as I am aware.
 
AZa346
Posts: 191
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:58 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:08 am

Baruch wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
MXP is not poorly connected...On the contrary the Malpensa Express is very reliable and gets you directly into the city connecting with the metropolitana and all the train stations..Alitalia used to carry a lot of transit from the Balkans to Spain, France, the States and Argentina...Now it has cut back on a lot of routes, LCCs have taken over but still it used to offer a very competitive product price-wise compared to more expensive BA,LH etc..We'll see how the umpteenth rescue-plan goes


As far as I am aware the Malpensa Express runs every 30 mins, which seems like a much lower frequency than train connections to other major European airports. And on top of it, I don't think you can get anywhere in Northern Italy from MXP, without connecting in Milan (apart from Varese, perhaps). A lot of other European airports are better integrated into the railway network, e.g. if you are travelling from Brussels to CDG, there is a direct connection, same with Rotterdam and AMS, but not between Turin and MXP, as far as I am aware.


There used to be 4 trains per hour before covid, now it is 2; as you say, you can only get to Varese and Como without connecting in milan... not very clever!
 
marcogr12
Posts: 546
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:36 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:53 am

Yes it might not be AMS or FRA etc, but it's not that of a hassle, i think, since the Malpensa Express takes you directly to Milano Centrale and Cadorna and you just take the train to other regions..Alitalia's hub, FCO,works the same way with Leonardo express to Termini..
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
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Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:15 pm

There is a bus service from Turin to MXP. There is also a train service to Lugano region in Switzerland.
 
RainerBoeing777
Posts: 590
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:43 pm

Re: Alitalia News and Discussion Thread

Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:44 pm

Blerg wrote:
How come they are going to be flying to Tokyo? Where is all that demand coming from? I thought they were going to focus more on where expats are.


Japan and Italy have had great alliances since the First World War, the demand between two countries is very great, many Japanese visit Italy and many Italians visit Japan
There are also large businesses such as fashion and the automotive sector, in fact Korean Air and Asiana flights to Italy most of them are connections to Japan. In addition, the yields of Japan are some of the best in Asia
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG - UA

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