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VirginFlyer
Posts: 5035
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:38 pm

There's some more detail in this article: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-438193/

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
commavia
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:12 pm

pksundevil wrote:
30% of Alitalia's revenues are from US operations? That's amazing.


What I think is even more remarkable, albeit perhaps not necessarily all that surprising, is that JFK alone accounts for over 15% of the company's global revenue. That speaks to the enduring centrality of NYC to the overall transatlantic marketplace.
 
dcajet
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:34 am

commavia wrote:
pksundevil wrote:
30% of Alitalia's revenues are from US operations? That's amazing.


What I think is even more remarkable, albeit perhaps not necessarily all that surprising, is that JFK alone accounts for over 15% of the company's global revenue. That speaks to the enduring centrality of NYC to the overall transatlantic marketplace.


Absolutely. And in the case of NYC and AZ, compounded by the ethnic Italian & Italian American traffic that use their services. Same happens on two other key routes for AZ: EZE & GRU.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
hawk44
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:59 am

If and I really hope it doesn't happen but if AZ folds do you think another SkyTeam member steps in to increase service and will SkyTeam look to add another member?
Never under estimate the power of US
 
uberflieger
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:36 am

hawk44 wrote:
If and I really hope it doesn't happen but if AZ folds do you think another SkyTeam member steps in to increase service and will SkyTeam look to add another member?

Sky Team is the alliance to lose most should Alitalia fold. Italian loyalists will have no more domestic and few European nonstop options and the Transcontinental void will quickly get filled by all competitors.
I would be very surprised if Air France wasn't one of the interested parties.
 
scotron11
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:16 am

ScottB wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
Not an expert but why is an italian company filing for bankruptcy in the US? Sorry Not a subscriber so I can't read the whole article.


Because they have operations in the U.S., the U.S. Bankruptcy Code offers them access to the U.S. courts to deal with their debtors, claims, assets, etc. with respect to those operations; under Chapter 15, the case is ancillary to the Italian insolvency proceedings. In this particular case, their landlord at JFK planned to throw them out as of today due to unpaid bills while their telecom provider was going to cut service next week; with the bankruptcy filing, the landlord/vendors can't terminate service due to the past unpaid bills but AZ will have to stay current on its obligations post-filing.


How does that work? Does it mean AZ is now having to pay daily for whatever airport charges are incurred?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:20 am

uberflieger wrote:
hawk44 wrote:
If and I really hope it doesn't happen but if AZ folds do you think another SkyTeam member steps in to increase service and will SkyTeam look to add another member?

Sky Team is the alliance to lose most should Alitalia fold. Italian loyalists will have no more domestic and few European nonstop options and the Transcontinental void will quickly get filled by all competitors.
I would be very surprised if Air France wasn't one of the interested parties.

I would be shocked if AF was interested. There is no business case for investing in AZ. AF/KLM was emphatic they would not bid for Alitalia.

It is sad, but the only rescue would be another government investment. Etihad was there best hope and little reform occurred. How is AZ going to compete with LCCs with A321NEOs and -10 MAX?

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
ScottB
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:21 pm

scotron11 wrote:
Does it mean AZ is now having to pay daily for whatever airport charges are incurred?


That's a bit murkier, actually. In the U.S., ordinary expenses for a business (i.e. terminal charges, telecom expenses in this case) incurred post-petition are generally accorded administrative claim status which basically means they get paid first when the bankruptcy is settled (through reorganization or liquidation). AZ might not have to pay up-front simply because the vendors/suppliers, if they do their paperwork correctly, are more or less guaranteed to get what they're owed for everything after June 12. The vendors/suppliers also cannot withhold service without approval from the bankruptcy court.
 
winginit
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:37 pm

uberflieger wrote:
hawk44 wrote:
If and I really hope it doesn't happen but if AZ folds do you think another SkyTeam member steps in to increase service and will SkyTeam look to add another member?

Sky Team is the alliance to lose most should Alitalia fold. Italian loyalists will have no more domestic and few European nonstop options and the Transcontinental void will quickly get filled by all competitors.
I would be very surprised if Air France wasn't one of the interested parties.


Lose the most sure, but it's not a whole lot that they'd lose. Yes some domestic feed would dry up, but Italy has poor connecting hubs as it is especially compared to AMS and CDG. As for the TATL capacity, the key routes could very easily be back filled by Delta if they saw the need:

FCOJFK: Easy Delta back fill, already served by DL
FCOLAX: Easy Delta back fill, although not sure if they would
FCOORD: Could be backfilled with a DTW up-gauge, but probably no need
FCOBOS: Easy Delta back fill given their focus on BOS as of late
FCOMIA: Could be backfilled with ATL up-gauge, but probably no need
MXPJFK: Easy Delta back fill, already served by DL

As for a SkyTeam reaction, SkyTeam will only care so much as their influential members care, and the influential members already have the AZ portfolio of destinations pretty well covered.
 
Nola
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:42 pm

lightsaber wrote:
uberflieger wrote:
hawk44 wrote:
If and I really hope it doesn't happen but if AZ folds do you think another SkyTeam member steps in to increase service and will SkyTeam look to add another member?

Sky Team is the alliance to lose most should Alitalia fold. Italian loyalists will have no more domestic and few European nonstop options and the Transcontinental void will quickly get filled by all competitors.
I would be very surprised if Air France wasn't one of the interested parties.

I would be shocked if AF was interested. There is no business case for investing in AZ. AF/KLM was emphatic they would not bid for Alitalia.

It is sad, but the only rescue would be another government investment. Etihad was there best hope and little reform occurred. How is AZ going to compete with LCCs with A321NEOs and -10 MAX?

Lightsaber


I think that the writer is saying that AF would increase service to Rome and Milan and try to capture some of the traffic through its CDG hub, or, alternatively, that AF might launch FCO/MXP-JFK service, not that AF/KLM would invest in Alitalia.
 
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ro1960
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:36 pm

Some LCCs already have bases in Italy. VY at FCO and FLR, U2 at LIN, MXP, FCO and NPL, FR at secondary airports. They could easily jump on the opportunity.
You may like my airport photos:
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GCT64
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:01 am

Easyjet have confirmed that they are one of the companies that have expressed interest in AZ.

“We can confirm we are interested,” CEO Carolyn McCall told ATW at a media event in Toulouse June 14. She added: “We are not allowed to comment on the process, whatsoever. We have been asked by the government not to make any comments on Alitalia.”

The sale has had 32 expressions of interest, including FR that is interested in a connecting flight partnership.
Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,B190,(..54 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
bostero2
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:24 am

GCT64 wrote:
Easyjet have confirmed that they are one of the companies that have expressed interest in AZ.

“We can confirm we are interested,” CEO Carolyn McCall told ATW at a media event in Toulouse June 14. She added: “We are not allowed to comment on the process, whatsoever. We have been asked by the government not to make any comments on Alitalia.”

The sale has had 32 expressions of interest, including FR that is interested in a connecting flight partnership.

Let's keep in mind that these expressions of interest are just that, companies asking to view the balances before making a non-binding offer. Also there have been reports that a considerable number of AZ's pilots are already signing contracts with other companies (mostly in China and the UAE). And to make matters worse there is another strike today (though this time it's a general transport sector strike).

Also today the government appointed interventor has corrected the information of 32 expressions of interest saying that there were actually 33.
 
scotron11
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:58 am

bostero2 wrote:
GCT64 wrote:
Easyjet have confirmed that they are one of the companies that have expressed interest in AZ.

“We can confirm we are interested,” CEO Carolyn McCall told ATW at a media event in Toulouse June 14. She added: “We are not allowed to comment on the process, whatsoever. We have been asked by the government not to make any comments on Alitalia.”

The sale has had 32 expressions of interest, including FR that is interested in a connecting flight partnership.

Let's keep in mind that these expressions of interest are just that, companies asking to view the balances before making a non-binding offer. Also there have been reports that a considerable number of AZ's pilots are already signing contracts with other companies (mostly in China and the UAE). And to make matters worse there is another strike today (though this time it's a general transport sector strike).

Also today the government appointed interventor has corrected the information of 32 expressions of interest saying that there were actually 33.


Maybe the 33rd is A.net :lol: :lol:
 
bobnwa
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Re: Alitalia Cash Flow

Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:21 pm

11725Flyer wrote:
My prediction - Alitalia will cease to exist within the next 12 months.

IS the Pope Catholic?
 
LJ
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:25 pm

uberflieger wrote:
Sky Team is the alliance to lose most should Alitalia fold. Italian loyalists will have no more domestic and few European nonstop options and the Transcontinental void will quickly get filled by all competitors.
I would be very surprised if Air France wasn't one of the interested parties.


AZ started cutting ties with AF/KL recently. The benefit for AF/KL will be that it may gain the LIN slots it wants. Thus I doubt Skyteam is feeling any pain.
 
factsonly
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:20 pm

LJ wrote:
uberflieger wrote:
Thus I doubt Skyteam is feeling any pain.


In S17 there are still over 70 daily codeshares between both KL/AZ and AF/AZ, so a lot of revenue is still generated on the (former) Skyteam partners, which AZ will have to settle with AF/KL.

The KL/AF accounting departments will be watching the AZ situation very carefully, as a sudden collapse may hurt.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:01 pm

More likely ops doing the watching rather than the numbers guys.
 
AirbusMDCFAN
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Alitalia files for chapter 15 to maintain it's service to the United States

Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:58 pm

Link/Source: http://atwonline.com/airlines/alitalia- ... 4af26dbc0b


"Italian flag carrier Alitalia has filed for Chapter 15 bankruptcy protection in the US, in an effort to keep its leased terminal gates at New York JFK. The temporary relief will allow Alitalia to continue operations to the US."

"Chapter 15 allows foreign companies protection under the US Bankruptcy Code as they undergo insolvency proceedings in their own country. It guarantees a temporary restraining order until June 23, offering a short period of protection from creditors. A hearing is scheduled for June 26."

Chapter 15 of the US bankruptcy code: http://www.uscourts.gov/services-forms/ ... tcy-basics

How much longer will Alitalia be allowed to flounder before the plugs are all finally pulled for good.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: Alitalia files for chapter 15 to maintain it's service to the United States

Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:03 pm

Sweet lord...I think they and AB are having a contest to see who the last man standing is...shut them down already!
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Alitalia files for chapter 15 to maintain it's service to the United States

Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:01 pm

Arghh! The English grammar police service has been alerted by the title! But this time, it was decided not to take action. It's not worth the problem, its service to the English-speaking population is on a loosing streak

I hope Alitalia pulls through somehow, at least its logo is very pretty!
 
stefanJ
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Re: Alitalia files for chapter 15 to maintain it's service to the United States

Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:12 pm

sassiciai wrote:
Arghh! The English grammar police service has been alerted by the title! But this time, it was decided not to take action. It's not worth the problem, its service to the English-speaking population is on a loosing streak

I hope Alitalia pulls through somehow, at least its logo is very pretty!


The irony in your statement is that your spelling seems to be on a losing streak. "Attend to yourself first, before helping others" said an onboard safety video not too long ago...
 
ushermittwoch
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Re: Alitalia files for chapter 15 to maintain it's service to the United States

Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:33 pm

stefanJ wrote:
sassiciai wrote:
Arghh! The English grammar police service has been alerted by the title! But this time, it was decided not to take action. It's not worth the problem, its service to the English-speaking population is on a loosing streak

I hope Alitalia pulls through somehow, at least its logo is very pretty!


The irony in your statement is that your spelling seems to be on a losing streak. "Attend to yourself first, before helping others" said an onboard safety video not too long ago...


Quoted for truth.

The whole Alitalia saga truly is a travesty.
It is a failed airline. And it is more than time to put and end to this once proud carrier.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
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cathay747
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Re: Alitalia files for chapter 15 to maintain it's service to the United States

Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:41 pm

ushermittwoch wrote:
stefanJ wrote:
sassiciai wrote:
Arghh! The English grammar police service has been alerted by the title! But this time, it was decided not to take action. It's not worth the problem, its service to the English-speaking population is on a loosing streak

I hope Alitalia pulls through somehow, at least its logo is very pretty!


The irony in your statement is that your spelling seems to be on a losing streak. "Attend to yourself first, before helping others" said an onboard safety video not too long ago...


Quoted for truth.

The whole Alitalia saga truly is a travesty.
It is a failed airline. And it is more than time to put and end to this once proud carrier.


Agreed. AZ just needs to be put out of everyone's misery, and resurrect it as a new Phoenix from the ashes a la Swiss...with a clean slate. It is beyond repair.
Try a Little VC-10derness
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:19 pm

Thanks to all for pointing out my spelling mistake, in my post about incorrect spelling! LOL! Even the a.net spilling shaker didn't help my case!

At least the title of this thread has been amended, and is now no longer the assault on my senses that it was earlier. Wish it was as easy to fix Alitalia as it was the grammatical errors!
 
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Slash787
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:05 pm

Well I am not surprised
 
DDR
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:26 pm

pksundevil wrote:
30% of Alitalia's revenues are from US operations? That's amazing.


Maybe they should get rid of everything except the US to Italy routes. They could pay off their debt with all the money they would receive from surplus assets. I'm being sarcastic but, they are going to have to do something.
 
Bostrom
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Re: Alitalia files for chapter 15 to maintain it's service to the United States

Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:47 pm

cathay747 wrote:
ushermittwoch wrote:
stefanJ wrote:

The irony in your statement is that your spelling seems to be on a losing streak. "Attend to yourself first, before helping others" said an onboard safety video not too long ago...


Quoted for truth.

The whole Alitalia saga truly is a travesty.
It is a failed airline. And it is more than time to put and end to this once proud carrier.


Agreed. AZ just needs to be put out of everyone's misery, and resurrect it as a new Phoenix from the ashes a la Swiss...with a clean slate. It is beyond repair.


Isn't that roughly what happened in 2008?
 
F9Animal
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:01 am

I am holding on to hope that Alitalia survives. I am pretty sure the government will continue to assist the airline. I really hope things turn around, and the airline gets organized to profitability.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
bostero2
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:38 am

The media today is saying that the administrators have narrowed down the expressions of interest to 15 for the next stage (non-binding offers). All the articles I've read talk about LH, FR, U2, DL, AF, EY (still), IAG. Though at this point the names of the interested are mostly rumors since it's all confidential and nothing has been communicated by AZ.

Also the entrance of the 77W (EI-WLA) that was scheduled for 5 Aug has been postponed to 30 Oct apparently because of some delays from the lessor.
 
guillelds
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:47 am

Alitalia has been broke since I remember
 
YIMBY
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:07 pm

bostero2 wrote:
The media today is saying that the administrators have narrowed down the expressions of interest to 15 for the next stage (non-binding offers). All the articles I've read talk about LH, FR, U2, DL, AF, EY (still), IAG. Though at this point the names of the interested are mostly rumors since it's all confidential and nothing has been communicated by AZ.

Also the entrance of the 77W (EI-WLA) that was scheduled for 5 Aug has been postponed to 30 Oct apparently because of some delays from the lessor.


Most likely the media just quotes the names of all airlines that they can remember.
 
winginit
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:14 pm

bostero2 wrote:
The media today is saying that the administrators have narrowed down the expressions of interest to 15 for the next stage (non-binding offers). All the articles I've read talk about LH, FR, U2, DL, AF, EY (still), IAG. Though at this point the names of the interested are mostly rumors since it's all confidential and nothing has been communicated by AZ.


The distinction that isn't made there when it comes to OA interest is White Knight versus Vulture. You can be absolutely sure that there's a ton of interest in Alitalia, but it's interest in their assets (JFK slots, etc.) if/when they fold versus an interest in keeping them alive.
 
VolvoBus
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:21 pm

bostero2 wrote:
The media today is saying that the administrators have narrowed down the expressions of interest to 15 for the next stage (non-binding offers). All the articles I've read talk about LH, FR, U2, DL, AF, EY (still), IAG. Though at this point the names of the interested are mostly rumors since it's all confidential and nothing has been communicated by AZ.

Also the entrance of the 77W (EI-WLA) that was scheduled for 5 Aug has been postponed to 30 Oct apparently because of some delays from the lessor.


I am still totally baffled why anybody would actually want to buy AZ. Apart from hefty debts, a fleet mainly leased (according to Planespotters) -probably at rates reflecting their credit rating- and a recalcitrant workforce, EY was quoted in an article at the time of the bankruptcy filing as saying it required an injection of EUR 2bn to be turned around. Without all stakeholders (including staff) on board they were not prepared to take their share on.

Of the usual suspects , all bar EY (who would have seemed to have talked their way out) are publically quoted companies. With professional investors making even a back of an envelope calculation of the addition of AZ to the balance sheet, the turn around funds required and taking a punt on the unions playing ball, it looks a pretty tough sell to me.

MOL can have his 'arrivaderci Alitalia' moment, Stelios controls enough of U2 to be difficult and I am not sure if BA's IT meltdown hasn't shortened Willie Walsh's leash, which to me eliminates 3 more.

The wild card will be the Italian banks. I would expect almost a total write-off of the share capital and a write down of the loans, which will do nothing for their health , which isn't the greatest at present anyway.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:51 pm

Expressions of interest at this stage are NON-BINDING. The bankruptcy commissioners have assessed about 15 of the 32 expressions of interest to pass basic tests - i.e. the companies involved have money available to buy assets or even the whole company, and sound like they would be reasonably serious buyers - the commissioners will want to filter out the stupid bids such as companies with only 1 euro in assets.

The 15 companies remaining now get to have a good look at the books and records of Alitalia. Maybe see how different routes perform, get an idea of yields, how much staff are paid, costs of leases - all the kinds of things that are commercially highly confidential, that airlines never reveal publicly and are available internally only to trusted staff.

Because expressions of interest are non-binding, any of the 15 bidders can then walk away without any further obligations. Maybe they pay some nominal deposit fee to prevent time wasters, but now is Easyjet or Lufthansa's chance to see all the really private information and decide if (or how much) they might want to pay for some (or even all) of the assets. Easyjet for example might see a couple of Alitalia routes that are actually rather more (or less) profitable than they had originally thought. Perhaps Lufthansa are in the market for a B777 and find that Alitalia miraculously got a bargian on some lease and would be interested in picking up a B777 for a few years on the cheap.

At this stage, think of Alitalia as an unconscious old drunkard lying on the street who needs to sell his final belongings to get another fix of alcohol, while a few local thugs go through his pockets and decide which things they might want to 'buy' from him ! Do not magine in any way that these nonbinding expressions of interest are anything other than self-centred - the vast majority of them will almost certainly not progress to buying Alitalia the company
 
hinckley
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:26 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
At this stage, think of Alitalia as an unconscious old drunkard lying on the street who needs to sell his final belongings to get another fix of alcohol, while a few local thugs go through his pockets and decide which things they might want to 'buy' from him ! Do not magine in any way that these nonbinding expressions of interest are anything other than self-centred - the vast majority of them will almost certainly not progress to buying Alitalia the company


Quite a vivid analogy! But I think you're right. There may be some interest in a partial asset sale here and there, but I doubt there'll be anymore than that. OTOH, I would still bet that the Italian government still comes through at the last moment with a miraculous taxpayer sponsored solution that keeps the airline flying and all those nice, big juicy employment contracts in place!
 
Someone83
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:05 am

VolvoBus wrote:
I am still totally baffled why anybody would actually want to buy AZ.


None of these interested buyers are probably interested to buy whole Alitalia "as is". Just parts of it, and without much debt.

Yes Alitalia is a mess, but it doesn't mean there isn't some good assets there, that some of these companies are interested in
 
L1049L1011
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:47 am

Does anyone have experience with Millemiglia? I've long distance flights coming up with AZ, and inquired with the Millemiglia customer service about the possibility of using miles for an upgrade either way. The booking class (H) allows for upgrades. After voicing my interest, I was put on hold for 15min, and then told that there are no upgrades possible to any higher class on any of the flights.

Yet at the same time, AZ keeps pestering me with emails that I should place a bid (e.g., Euro 500) with upgrade.plusgrade.com for an upgrade on exactly these flights.

In can understand that AZ is now scrambling for every Euro, US$, £ they can get get, but I'm starting to wonder if Millemiglia has turned into a scam?
 
AtomicGarden
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:14 am

L1049L1011 wrote:
Does anyone have experience with Millemiglia? I've long distance flights coming up with AZ, and inquired with the Millemiglia customer service about the possibility of using miles for an upgrade either way. The booking class (H) allows for upgrades. After voicing my interest, I was put on hold for 15min, and then told that there are no upgrades possible to any higher class on any of the flights.

Yet at the same time, AZ keeps pestering me with emails that I should place a bid (e.g., Euro 500) with upgrade.plusgrade.com for an upgrade on exactly these flights.

In can understand that AZ is now scrambling for every Euro, US$, £ they can get get, but I'm starting to wonder if Millemiglia has turned into a scam?


Perhaps there is no availability on Milemiglia biz class bookings, even if there actually are seats for sale in the same cabin. Maybe if you try again closer in time to the departure date, revenue management will free some biz class in FF fares (I don't work for AZ but that's how sometimes we handle these issues at my airline).
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:33 am

Alitalia has further delayed its B77W entry into service...will it ever happen?

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... -oct-2017/

As for the airline and buying it, creditors should take over the Linate operation and then flip it to another airline and sell off AZ's slots at JFK Airport (currently 28 weekly, 4 a day), but the demise of Alitalia would really open up competition on LIN-FCO with Ryanair (already with an extensive Italy domestic network but not Milan to Rome) and Norwegian ready to pounce. The airline should finally die. I would expect IAG and Norwegian to bid for the JFK slots.
 
ec99
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:20 pm

ScottB wrote:
scotron11 wrote:
Does it mean AZ is now having to pay daily for whatever airport charges are incurred?


That's a bit murkier, actually. In the U.S., ordinary expenses for a business (i.e. terminal charges, telecom expenses in this case) incurred post-petition are generally accorded administrative claim status which basically means they get paid first when the bankruptcy is settled (through reorganization or liquidation). AZ might not have to pay up-front simply because the vendors/suppliers, if they do their paperwork correctly, are more or less guaranteed to get what they're owed for everything after June 12. The vendors/suppliers also cannot withhold service without approval from the bankruptcy court.


You are assuming Alitalia is going through chapter 11 bankruptcy. They are in chapter 15, which is designed to allow foreign companies to complete bankruptcy in their own country. I'm not an expert on chapter 15 but the chapter 11 payoff rules cannot apply since if that was the case you would have two conflicting bankruptcy decisions, one in the USA and one in your home country. But it is largely irrelevant since it is unlikely any business is going to sell much to AZ on credit since if they go bankrupt the business would then have to wait a year to get paid while the case goes through court. Getting paid is good, having to wait a year to get paid is bad. Also, in bankruptcy people often forget who really gets paid first. It is the lawyers. Lawyers wrote the bankruptcy code and you better believe they, as well as the specialists required to turn around/liquidate a large company get paid first. This does make sense though since trying to take a company through bankruptcy without lawyers and accountants would be impossible.

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Alitalia has further delayed its B77W entry into service...will it ever happen?

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... -oct-2017/

As for the airline and buying it, creditors should take over the Linate operation and then flip it to another airline and sell off AZ's slots at JFK Airport (currently 28 weekly, 4 a day), but the demise of Alitalia would really open up competition on LIN-FCO with Ryanair (already with an extensive Italy domestic network but not Milan to Rome) and Norwegian ready to pounce. The airline should finally die. I would expect IAG and Norwegian to bid for the JFK slots.


Does anyone know if Italian bankruptcy law allows the court to sell off assets piecemeal a la the TWA bankruptcy? It makes the most sense but the Italian legal system is very very different from the Anglo-American system.
 
bostero2
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 3:05 pm

Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:40 pm

ec99 wrote:
Does anyone know if Italian bankruptcy law allows the court to sell off assets piecemeal a la the TWA bankruptcy? It makes the most sense but the Italian legal system is very very different from the Anglo-American system.


As far as I know, here in Italy there's no court deciding on AZ's. What's going on is that the company has a state appointed administration that is trying to make things work so that they can sell the company as a whole or, if no one wants it whole, sell it's assets. But there's no court involved, at least for now.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 4946
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:22 pm

77W entering service would be like the Titanics funnels getting painted as she was sinking.

I called it 6 months ago...the 77W will
not enter sevice until things are straightened out. If they are straightened out
 
ScottB
Posts: 6191
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:40 pm

ec99 wrote:
You are assuming Alitalia is going through chapter 11 bankruptcy. They are in chapter 15, which is designed to allow foreign companies to complete bankruptcy in their own country. I'm not an expert on chapter 15 but the chapter 11 payoff rules cannot apply since if that was the case you would have two conflicting bankruptcy decisions, one in the USA and one in your home country. But it is largely irrelevant since it is unlikely any business is going to sell much to AZ on credit since if they go bankrupt the business would then have to wait a year to get paid while the case goes through court. Getting paid is good, having to wait a year to get paid is bad. Also, in bankruptcy people often forget who really gets paid first. It is the lawyers. Lawyers wrote the bankruptcy code and you better believe they, as well as the specialists required to turn around/liquidate a large company get paid first. This does make sense though since trying to take a company through bankruptcy without lawyers and accountants would be impossible.


Under Chapter 15, there is a clause which requires the Court to ensure that domestic creditors are "sufficiently protected." In practice, that means that domestic creditors are expected to receive at least comparable protections as they would in an entirely domestic proceeding based on the local assets. Chapter 15 also requires the Court to ensure that decisions made by the foreign court are not prejudicial with respect to U.S.-based creditors. I interpret this as meaning that the U.S. assets would be used to ensure payment of administrative claims just as they would be in Chapter 11 or 7, although the Court has no jurisdiction over foreign assets.
 
bennett123
Posts: 8142
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:31 pm

Does this mean that the value of assets in the US, e.g slots would go to US creditors.
 
ec99
Posts: 257
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:18 pm

Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:26 pm

ScottB wrote:
ec99 wrote:
You are assuming Alitalia is going through chapter 11 bankruptcy. They are in chapter 15, which is designed to allow foreign companies to complete bankruptcy in their own country. I'm not an expert on chapter 15 but the chapter 11 payoff rules cannot apply since if that was the case you would have two conflicting bankruptcy decisions, one in the USA and one in your home country. But it is largely irrelevant since it is unlikely any business is going to sell much to AZ on credit since if they go bankrupt the business would then have to wait a year to get paid while the case goes through court. Getting paid is good, having to wait a year to get paid is bad. Also, in bankruptcy people often forget who really gets paid first. It is the lawyers. Lawyers wrote the bankruptcy code and you better believe they, as well as the specialists required to turn around/liquidate a large company get paid first. This does make sense though since trying to take a company through bankruptcy without lawyers and accountants would be impossible.


Under Chapter 15, there is a clause which requires the Court to ensure that domestic creditors are "sufficiently protected." In practice, that means that domestic creditors are expected to receive at least comparable protections as they would in an entirely domestic proceeding based on the local assets. Chapter 15 also requires the Court to ensure that decisions made by the foreign court are not prejudicial with respect to U.S.-based creditors. I interpret this as meaning that the U.S. assets would be used to ensure payment of administrative claims just as they would be in Chapter 11 or 7, although the Court has no jurisdiction over foreign assets.


That is partially correct. Chapter 15 means that US creditors cannot be unduly harmed at the expense of domestic creditors. This means when AZ stops flying, the Italian bankruptcy process cannot pay any fuel bills in Italy in full while 100% stiffing US based fuel suppliers. However, it would be likely be fine for all fuel suppliers to be paid 50 cents on the dollar.

So chapter 15 just protects American creditors from getting treated worse than domestic Italian creditors but assures them no protection or claims to AZ assets located in the USA. Where i disagree with your assessment is that I don't think the American bankruptcy court is going to seize AZ's assets here in an effort to pay creditors in full if the Italian bankruptcy process is treating American creditors fairly.

The caveat to this is that the Italian legal system is known to go at a snails pace. Its possible some things like gates at JFK will need to be sold quickly. The gates are not going to sit empty for years while the case goes is completed.
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1811
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:05 am

Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:36 pm

Maybe someone could shed some light on this: I'm considering booking BCN-LIN in November as this is the best timing and convenience for this flight. It is only $50 so not a huge loss, but I would obviously like to avoid that if I can. I was wondering what the likelyhood of AZ ceasing before then is? Additionally, do credit cards with travel insurance generally cover for this type of thing?
 
goldorak
Posts: 1430
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:29 am

Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:22 pm

Osubuckeyes wrote:
Maybe someone could shed some light on this: I'm considering booking BCN-LIN in November as this is the best timing and convenience for this flight. It is only $50 so not a huge loss, but I would obviously like to avoid that if I can. I was wondering what the likelyhood of AZ ceasing before then is? Additionally, do credit cards with travel insurance generally cover for this type of thing?

Any booking after the summer is at risk. Up to you to decide weighing benefits and risks.
 
Waterbomber
Posts: 705
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:53 am

Don't worry guys, they will do what they have always done.
Create a bad Alitalia with all the debt and start fresh with a new reborn AZetta.

The old one: http://www.alitaliaamministrazionestraordinaria.it/
The newer one: http://www.amministrazionestraordinariaalitaliasai.com/

They will run out of domain names before they run out of an airline.

Whatever happened to Qatar's tie-up to Meridiana? They were supposed to close in October 2016, then again they were close to closing in April 2017 and we're already July. Now QR has more issues to deal with than expected, and I can see them walking away as Meridiana is probably unsaveable.
 
Nola
Posts: 294
Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 1:40 am

Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:30 pm

Any updates? Considering a flight in October/November through FCO. Best to purchase through AF/KLM or DL instead of AZ?
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