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Mogrcat
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Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:04 pm

On one hand, it's the dumbest idea ever. FAs, civil liberties types, etc. would hate it. Hackers could have a field day. Would take some engineering to decide where to put them as well as the computer containing the feeds.

On the other hand - London central city is rumored to be completely blanketed; you can't sneeze in a Vegas casino without being scrutinized; they are cheap and almost unobtrusive.

Airline incidents, while a miniscule occurrence compared to the number of passengers and flights, get a huge amount of press & in some cases cost airlines significant amounts of money.

Most flights that have incidents (whether passenger-initiated or something like severe turbulence) have dozens of potential videographers willing to photo. However, those often do not capture the entire incident and not always from the best angle.

Just curious.
 
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c933103
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:14 pm

I guess it depend on country and culture... For instance if such thing is setup on a Chinese domestic flight no body would be complaining but probably less so for a flight from SFO.
You don't actually need to have a computer to store those videos... just use a larger CF card would be suffice. Perhaps a larger CF card with lower bitrate setting to store video over a longer period of time before replacing them. You also don't need to connect those cameras to anywhere else other than power and thus would not risk being hacked.
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VS4ever
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:25 pm

There are a lot more cameras out there than you probably realize. For example our local bus authority has cameras on all their buses, let's face it, you go pretty much anywhere now unless it's the middle of nowhere and there will be cameras of some description. If the airlines disclose that's what they are doing and for safety, hell go to the local shopping mall, you are on security video all the time. i don't think the civil liberties folks will put up too much of a fight, as there would be extensive evidence of other places to negate their arguments. The cameras could be on a closed loop system with the cards pulled at the end of each day and stored for say 14 days before being either wiped and reused or destroyed. You could make the cameras pretty small so they are not obtrusive, one at the front, one in the middle and one at the back facing forward on say a 320. Yeah, there's a bit of extra weight and wiring involved and the cost of refitting, but compared to what airlines do to refit their flights, I am pretty sure that's a relatively small number.
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Loew
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:47 pm

First of all, those cameras would need to be fully compliant with technical regulations, and as such they would be expensive. Secondly, what´s the point? Airplane cabin is not a city street where anyone can come and go. It´s a closed environment. As such, even a quarter full cabin is going to provide a lot of witnesses of any wrongdoing. A video of a severe turbulence, however dramatic, is not going to provide a lot of, if any useful information. I just can´t see any possible valuable information to be provided by these cameras, to justify the cost of procuring, installing and maintaining these. I can see some potential in cockpit cameras though, being a hypothetical supplement to existing FDR and CVR, but even there I think the future is in the live data feed from FDRs and CVRs, therefore eliminating urgent need to recover these in a case of a major accident.
 
smokeybandit
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:04 pm

There are usually 100-300 security cameras on every flight. Cell phones.
 
zkncj
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:53 pm

Nothing new - Airbus has offer an option CCTV for a couple of years now, and has been an optional post 9/11 feature on some airlines.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:54 am

Some flight staff unions may not like them so would have to work it out with them.
Such cameras would be useful as to if anyone got injured or claimed injured, if there was improper behavior by a pax or staff, or if an incident with the aircraft or how operated. They could be useful in any investigation. I am quite sure some airlines have cameras, especially by the cockpit door, for security reasons.
 
DexSwart
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:25 am

I think it's a great idea, honestly.

Our Metro trains, busses and trams here in Melbourne have them and it's made the whole network a safer place to be.

In terms of hacking, I'm not so sure that would be the biggest issue at all. Just keep the video onboard the aircraft until the end of the flight, or until the end of the day, then securely move it onto ground based storage for two weeks, then purge the system of unneeded videos.
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Blimpie
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:53 am

Not sure how it would be any different that how many city buses, and trains already have them; have had them in the US for the better part of twenty years now.
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N353SK
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:39 pm

Logistically, I'm not sure how it would work. A few cameras on the ceiling would have a great view of the aisle, but their view of the passenger seats would be at least partially obscured by the overhead bins. Mounting a bunch of cameras underneath the bins, right in the passengers' faces, would probably not be tolerated.
 
Dardania
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:01 pm

zkncj wrote:
Nothing new - Airbus has offer an option CCTV for a couple of years now, and has been an optional post 9/11 feature on some airlines.


I'm certain I saw 2 cameras on an Aeroflot Superjet a few weeks ago in the cabin - at each end.

I'm also suspicious that there were some fisheye ones along each ceiling panel.

SO it has been implemented too
 
glbltrvlr
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:59 pm

UA 747s have passenger cabin cameras, at least on the upper deck.
 
Rdh3e
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:46 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
There are usually 100-300 security cameras on every flight. Cell phones.

Problem is passenger videos rarely capture the genesis of an incident which is often very important in providing context to any onboard incident.
 
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intrance
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:21 am

I'm flying CRJs equipped with cameras. Not aimed at the cabin but to confirm the identity of the person wanting to get into the cockpit door and combined with a system for cabin crew to confirm cabin is ready and secure for departure and landing. It's a closed system so hackers aren't exactly a huge threat unless they dig for cables behind panels... wouldn't be against having them on either end of the cabin. Good solid proof for or against disruptive passengers or to prevent certain UAL situations from happening.

Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable and as mentioned, smartphones are only as smart as their users and don't start recording by themselves to capture an entire incident...
 
ltbewr
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:45 am

intrance wrote:
I'm flying CRJs equipped with cameras. Not aimed at the cabin but to confirm the identity of the person wanting to get into the cockpit door and combined with a system for cabin crew to confirm cabin is ready and secure for departure and landing. It's a closed system so hackers aren't exactly a huge threat unless they dig for cables behind panels... wouldn't be against having them on either end of the cabin. Good solid proof for or against disruptive passengers or to prevent certain UAL situations from happening.

Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable and as mentioned, smartphones are only as smart as their users and don't start recording by themselves to capture an entire incident...

These are very good points, especially as to security, but one would not want to create a distraction to pilots.
 
tu154
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:02 am

You're being watched by the flight deck aboard all jetBlue A320's........
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flipdewaf
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:46 am

ltbewr wrote:
intrance wrote:
I'm flying CRJs equipped with cameras. Not aimed at the cabin but to confirm the identity of the person wanting to get into the cockpit door and combined with a system for cabin crew to confirm cabin is ready and secure for departure and landing. It's a closed system so hackers aren't exactly a huge threat unless they dig for cables behind panels... wouldn't be against having them on either end of the cabin. Good solid proof for or against disruptive passengers or to prevent certain UAL situations from happening.

Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable and as mentioned, smartphones are only as smart as their users and don't start recording by themselves to capture an entire incident...

These are very good points, especially as to security, but one would not want to create a distraction to pilots.

Why would pilot need to see it?

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joeycapps
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:26 am

B6 has had cameras on their A320 fleet for awhile. Not 100% positive on the 321's and E190's, but I know for sure the 320's do.
 
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adamblang
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:15 am

My QantasLink operated by National Jet Systems flight earlier in the week had a (presumably) security right behind the cockpit door.
 
Armodeen
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:14 am

Wearable body cameras for FAs (to be used I the event of a disturbance and left in a locker at all other times) would be a cheap and minimally intrusive solution. But as another poster said, everyone would film on their cell phones anyway.
 
joeycapps
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:46 am

A few interesting responses above...

1. I think privacy concerns are unwarranted, unless the camera were to be in the lavatories, and I doubt that would even be considered. Not much an airline (or government agency, for those wearing tinfoil) would want with footage of an airplane cabin and the occasional line of people waiting for the bathroom.
2. The cameras provide invaluable insight in the event of an emergency on board, be it terrorism, a fight, or any situation where an investigation (either by the airline internally or an investigation by an outside party) is warranted. If for nothing else, a full picture of the situation is better than listening to he said, she said.
3. The captain should be able to access the cameras, as it's his ship at the end of the day - and I imagine that sometimes, talking with the cabin crew via handset isn't enough, and it would be better to just see for his/herself to determine the severity of any situation onboard - preferably without leaving the cockpit.

I don't think that the objective is to see each passenger individually as they're sitting, by any means. I can think of a handful of situations just off the top of my head where it would be great to have a camera onboard. Just my 2c.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:47 am

I think people would be surprised how many aircraft already have this feature.

It is not a distraction to pilots unless they elect to look. And yes ... when you discreetly adjust your package after coming out of the lav, we see that. The cabin cameras can be viewed on a cockpit monitor, when selected, replacing one of the ECAM/EICAS screens.
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skyhawkmatthew
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Re: Security camera(s) in Passenger Cabins? Time to rethink?

Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:31 pm

The 777 has 3 cameras scattered around the forward entry/galley/lav area that we can view at will from the cockpit. The primary purpose is to see if our meal is ready yet - the secondary being to know who is outside the door wanting to come in.
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