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lesfalls
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Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:08 pm

Title says it all:

http://www.abendblatt.de/hamburg/articl ... -nach.html {In German}

Your thoughts? I think that these flights could be a success as HAM has only one TATL flight considering how HAM is the second biggest city in Germany.
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chepos
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:10 pm

They sure want to grow fast; that usually does not end well.
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TWA772LR
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:16 pm

There goes UAs EWR-HAM seasonal.

Wouldn't DUS or CGN be better for them? The Rhine/Ruhr is the industrial (read middle class) heartland of Germany.
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:27 pm

Is there anywhere Norwegian won't go?
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ahj2000
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:38 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
There goes UAs EWR-HAM seasonal.

Wouldn't DUS or CGN be better for them? The Rhine/Ruhr is the industrial (read middle class) heartland of Germany.

Far more competition for both. CGN has the Eurowings LH project and DUS has Airberlin. Although, both are so weak...
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lesfalls
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:00 pm

ahj2000 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
There goes UAs EWR-HAM seasonal.

Wouldn't DUS or CGN be better for them? The Rhine/Ruhr is the industrial (read middle class) heartland of Germany.

Far more competition for both. CGN has the Eurowings LH project and DUS has Airberlin. Although, both are so weak...

HAM is in addition to their plans that they have for DUS(which they plan to start longhaul flights from in 2018).
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DLHAM
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:32 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
There goes UAs EWR-HAM seasonal.


This route survived direct Emirates competition, a world financial crisis and an oil price at 150$ per barrel. The crappy 3-class 767 and the many 767 technical delays and cancellations harmed it already. Oskar Munoz is another danger for that flight.

I don't know if it could compete with a norwegian 787! UA should be more reliable and depart later than 9am. Would help already. Converting to seasonal doesn't help either.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:56 pm

Great market. I assume this would start with 737s. The 737 might be limited with how far it can get, but with limited competition from a market of 2 million or more people, I think it is the perfect chance for Norwegian.

DLHAM wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
There goes UAs EWR-HAM seasonal.


This route survived direct Emirates competition, a world financial crisis and an oil price at 150$ per barrel. The crappy 3-class 767 and the many 767 technical delays and cancellations harmed it already. Oskar Munoz is another danger for that flight.

I don't know if it could compete with a norwegian 787! UA should be more reliable and depart later than 9am. Would help already. Converting to seasonal doesn't help either.


I don't know what you are talking about regarding the UA 767s. Sounds like you just hate UA. UA's 767s offer a better product than Norwegian. Free meals. Free checked luggage. IFE. Economy plus free of charge for elites. Free seat assignments. Full flat business class seats up front. UA offers a perfectly good product on their 767s, especially compared to what Norwegian will offer, with the exception of price. Price conscious travelers will be more likely to fly Norwegian.
 
C010T3
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:05 pm

Starting long-haul flights from HAM makes a lot of sense. If only Northern Germany would sell itself better as a tourist destination for foreigners, then there would be a better mix between origin and destination.
 
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:15 pm

Having been based at HAM for quite some time, I very much would look forward to such a move. I would happily see the UA service gone if that meant that Norwegian arrived with lower fares since UA always charges ridiculous fares out of HAM. Hamburg is a city of 1.8mn people and I am always amazed that people here just accept that they need to connect in AMS, CDG, DXB, LHR or FRA for wherever they go long haul. In two weeks myself, I will use IAG for TATL from HAM.
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SCQ83
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:28 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Wouldn't DUS or CGN be better for them? The Rhine/Ruhr is the industrial (read middle class) heartland of Germany.


There is a certain decay in that region. I would compare it to Chicago / IL in the US (not served by Norwegian either).

Hamburg on the other hand has grown a lot during the current economic boom in Germany. HAM, MUC and BER are the three cities that have benefited the most.
 
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XLA2008
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:31 pm

Yet another Norwegian LH hub! Unfortunately their desperation to grow so quickly and grab so many markets at once does not usually end well! But I guess time will tell!
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TheGeordielad
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:47 pm

I have to say I don't really see many routes working apart from New York and Orlando possibly Fort Lauderdale.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:58 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Great market. I assume this would start with 737s. The 737 might be limited with how far it can get, but with limited competition from a market of 2 million or more people, I think it is the perfect chance for Norwegian.

...

I don't know what you are talking about regarding the UA 767s. Sounds like you just hate UA.


I do not hate UA at all, they just did some mistakes in HAM. The 2-class 767s are perfect, the cabin is nice. But the Economy cabin in the 3-class 767s is way below average. Additional there were so many delays and cancellations with the 767s. Last year, one day we had 3(!!!) United 767s here at once, two of them sitting here broken.
The 757 never had that much technical delays. Drives away customers.

Btw I don't know if the range of the 737MAX8 is enough for HAM-JFK. Even the 757 struggled in winter. Would be a Lot of diversions I think, and no flying in winter.

TheGeordielad wrote:
I have to say I don't really see many routes working apart from New York and Orlando possibly Fort Lauderdale.


NYC, Miami, Los Angeles, San Francisco and Chicago are the US-places with the highest traffic from Hamburg
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ikramerica
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:05 pm

I took the CO 752 back in the day and what I didn't like was being double screened into a very cramped holding room with no bathrooms and concessions and then waiting for a delay. As a BF customer they personally boarded us as quickly as possible and tried to make you feel special but it wasn't great. I know all airports have USA flight holding pens but at HAM it was pretty restrictive. I'm not sure how it's improved since then but with one flight a day I can't see it being much better.
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AirbusOnly
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:21 pm

HAM is my town and I wish nothing more than some attractive long haul flights from there - but go away with still more LCC and ULCC. There are enough now and at present Ryanair is increasing like butterflies! What we need are Legacy carrier who also and in special attracting Business Traveller. Hamburg is a well situated and rich town, people there and in the Agglomeration up to the danish Frottier are alble and Willing to pay for good services and nonstop connections. So why Not LH one day with Airbus 321neoLR? ;-)
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:41 pm

ikramerica wrote:
I took the CO 752 back in the day and what I didn't like was being double screened into a very cramped holding room with no bathrooms and concessions and then waiting for a delay. As a BF customer they personally boarded us as quickly as possible and tried to make you feel special but it wasn't great. I know all airports have USA flight holding pens but at HAM it was pretty restrictive. I'm not sure how it's improved since then but with one flight a day I can't see it being much better.


I think your flight left from Gate A18, its one of these gates which can be converted between Schengen and Nonschengen. For Nonschengen they close glass doors and its pretty cramped thats right. Up to 150 passengers is okay but everything above is not nice. But there are bathrooms, they are pretty hidden, from most areas you see the bathroom signs only from the side, so they are like invisible.

In recent years the UA flight departed from C04, which is very spacious. This year I am sure they will use one of the new A380-positions (but I am not sure).
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blackbox67
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:51 pm

HAM is a long haul mystery to me. Despite a thriving economy of over 5 million people in the metropolitan region and an annual growth to over 16 million passengers, this airport failed to generate adequate services in the long-range segment, both Trans-Atlantic and Asian.
Hamburg and the German north are very attractive for domestic tourism, but they never reached out to gather attention for international tourism.
I personally doubt Norwegian is seriously considering any long hauls from HAM, but their reference to that city could intensify considerations by LH/EW to begin such flights. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ter-rivals
 
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Eindhoven
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:55 am

I can see HAM working for them. Guess it'll be LGW-JFK-HAM-JFK-LGW or something like that. Of course that hurts UA but they are already looking into RTM which might work better for them than HAM.

Now waiting when they announce EIN. :P
 
TheGeordielad
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:13 pm

If anyone will operate long haul from HAM it could possibly by Eurowings.
 
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:02 pm

Just to let you all know that FI has been flying to HAM, summer seasonal only, past 3-4 years. I think FI will fly to HAM all year around which will connect HAM to their main bank to the USA and CAN.
 
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:04 pm

blackbox67 wrote:
HAM is a long haul mystery to me. Despite a thriving economy of over 5 million people in the metropolitan region and an annual growth to over 16 million passengers, this airport failed to generate adequate services in the long-range segment, both Trans-Atlantic and Asian.
Hamburg and the German north are very attractive for domestic tourism, but they never reached out to gather attention for international tourism.
I personally doubt Norwegian is seriously considering any long hauls from HAM, but their reference to that city could intensify considerations by LH/EW to begin such flights. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ter-rivals


That article and the other recent article talking SAS expansion of TATL sure seem to bolster Boeing's thinking of a new MOM plane.
 
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:18 pm

blackbox67 wrote:
HAM is a long haul mystery to me. Despite a thriving economy of over 5 million people in the metropolitan region and an annual growth to over 16 million passengers, this airport failed to generate adequate services in the long-range segment, both Trans-Atlantic and Asian.
Hamburg and the German north are very attractive for domestic tourism, but they never reached out to gather attention for international tourism.
I personally doubt Norwegian is seriously considering any long hauls from HAM, but their reference to that city could intensify considerations by LH/EW to begin such flights. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ter-rivals


Yes, That's true. It's Only remaning long haul flights are EK to DXB, Iran Air to IKA, and seasonal UA to EWR.
A few years ago MU was trying to start PVG-HAM but it failed. I Think Norweigan can make good businness in HAM.
There is a Huge opportunity here (wealthy market + big demand)
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:25 pm

TheGeordielad wrote:
If anyone will operate long haul from HAM it could possibly by Eurowings.


If they intend to, they should't wait too long. Otherwise norwegian comes first, and both of them could be too much. I would prefer norwegian!

IceAir778 wrote:
Just to let you all know that FI has been flying to HAM, summer seasonal only, past 3-4 years. I think FI will fly to HAM all year around which will connect HAM to their main bank to the USA and CAN.


Thats right, FI is a great option. But this doesn't mean that the market is covered with 6 757s a week.
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:45 pm

Can the A321 NEO LR fly between HAM and New York nonstop?
If can then I think Norwegian may consider HAM.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:40 pm

TheGeordielad wrote:
Can the A321 NEO LR fly between HAM and New York nonstop?
If can then I think Norwegian may consider HAM.


Should be no issue, even in winter. Isn't the range greater than the 757? The 757 had no problems in summer, struggles with strong winds in winter as HAM and TXL were at the absolute edge of range from NYC with sufficient load. But the 737MAX could only barely make it in summer.
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:49 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
... UA's 767s offer a better product than Norwegian. Free meals. Free checked luggage. IFE. Economy plus free of charge for elites. Free seat assignments. Full flat business class seats up front. UA offers a perfectly good product on their 767s, especially compared to what Norwegian will offer, with the exception of price. ...

"Free ... with the exception of price"...??
 
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:30 am

DLHAM wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
There goes UAs EWR-HAM seasonal.


This route survived direct Emirates competition, a world financial crisis and an oil price at 150$ per barrel. The crappy 3-class 767 and the many 767 technical delays and cancellations harmed it already. Oskar Munoz is another danger for that flight.

I don't know if it could compete with a norwegian 787! UA should be more reliable and depart later than 9am. Would help already. Converting to seasonal doesn't help either.


I was booked on this flight until it went seasonal. UA rebooked me on LH and I got a better flight and better connections out of the deal for the same price.
 
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:06 am

It would make perfect sense - "secondary" cities ignored by the traditional legacies and lacking non-stops are a natural market for DY. HAM is Germany's 2nd largest city and one of its wealthiest, yet lacks any longhaul flights except for DXB and the EWR flight that UA half-heartedly still serves (recent downgrade to seasonal). I have always found this situation abnormal, yet its citizens seem to have been well "educated" over decades to go to FRA first before going anywhere else, and willingly comply. Perhaps DY could change this...

Although everyone keeps talking about USA, it has been mentioned several times in the past that the biggest longhaul market lacking a non-stop is BKK. Being mainly leisure traffic, nobody has attempted a non-stop, but DY could make it work. Recently, anna.aero mentioned HAM-SIN as skyscanner's "unserved route of the week". But it is more business-heavy, and those Star frequent flyers would likely stay loyal to SQ.

Otherwise, one of the main impediments to long-haul growth at HAM would be...lack of physical space in a constrained city airport. The EK 777 blocks out a taxiway and adjacent gate when it is parked, and any widebody parking elsewhere would also block at least one adjacent gate, of which there are not many to spare. That's why the 757 and 767, with their short wingspans, are perfect for HAM. The A321NEOLR would be fine too, but won't get further than NYC. One solution could be to use the generous tarmac space in front of LH Technik, then bus the pax to the terminal. DY pax shouldn't mind.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:13 pm

DLHAM wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
There goes UAs EWR-HAM seasonal.


This route survived direct Emirates competition, a world financial crisis and an oil price at 150$ per barrel. The crappy 3-class 767 and the many 767 technical delays and cancellations harmed it already. Oskar Munoz is another danger for that flight.

I don't know if it could compete with a norwegian 787! UA should be more reliable and depart later than 9am. Would help already. Converting to seasonal doesn't help either.

I'm not sure what your talking about as recently at my airport there have men more mechanical problems with 787s than 767s. I often note that 787s seem to be broken down too often while the 767 keeps chugging along in the background, with its own problems from time to time, but not that bad.
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DLHAM
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:35 pm

767333ER wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
There goes UAs EWR-HAM seasonal.


This route survived direct Emirates competition, a world financial crisis and an oil price at 150$ per barrel. The crappy 3-class 767 and the many 767 technical delays and cancellations harmed it already. Oskar Munoz is another danger for that flight.

I don't know if it could compete with a norwegian 787! UA should be more reliable and depart later than 9am. Would help already. Converting to seasonal doesn't help either.

I'm not sure what your talking about as recently at my airport there have men more mechanical problems with 787s than 767s. I often note that 787s seem to be broken down too often while the 767 keeps chugging along in the background, with its own problems from time to time, but not that bad.


I can just compare the 757 with the 767, and it feels like the 767s had as many technical delays and cancellations in 1,5 years like the 757 in 10 years.

One day last year we had as much as 3 767s sitting here. One operating the scheduled flight, the other two were stranded from the past days, being AOG. Luckily, at least, we have LH Technik in Hamburg, they can fix that.

This is not what frequent flyers like. With the 757 the flight already had the reputation of being unreliable during winter due to the many fuel stops.
Now its unreliable in summer because the planes break pretty often causing long delays and cancellations. And in winter? No flight at all anymore. There is so much more demand on that route, many frequent flyers avoid that flight and book via FRA, LHR or whatever.

Not even 40% of all people travelling HAM-NYC use this flight. The rest are transfer passengers via whatever.
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Re: Norwegian looking at starting longhaul flights from HAM

Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:34 pm

ikramerica wrote:
I took the CO 752 back in the day and what I didn't like was being double screened into a very cramped holding room with no bathrooms and concessions and then waiting for a delay. As a BF customer they personally boarded us as quickly as possible and tried to make you feel special but it wasn't great. I know all airports have USA flight holding pens but at HAM it was pretty restrictive. I'm not sure how it's improved since then but with one flight a day I can't see it being much better.
UA usually uses gate C5 or C6 nowadays IIRC, which are the same gates EK usually uses as well. When we had that near three hour delay back in December 2015 on the HAM-EWR segment of my flight to SJO, I saw the Federal Police officers temporarily cancel the passenger's exit of the country so they could go to the concessions inside the Schengen area. And yes, that area does have toilets.

Apart from the fact that they have a body scanner for people who may require secondary screening (and I saw some get secondary screening that day) in that part of the concourse, it's not much different from the other non-Schengen gates in HAM.
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