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blackbox67
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AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:02 pm

Today's 757 to Saint Maarten AA flight 1753 made a last minute go-around after failing to align with runway on final approach to SXM in adverse weather. Went around for a safe landing. Scary stuff ! 2nd botched landing attempt documented this year after Westjet flight 2652.

Image

https://twitter.com/JacdecNew/status/853321396981780480
 
Cubsrule
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Re: AA 757 in scary go-around at Saint Maarten

Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:06 pm

What's scary? If you aren't stabilized, you go around. It's true in 172s and 380s alike.
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747-600X
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Re: AA 757 in scary go-around at Saint Maarten

Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:16 pm

This is NOT a "botched landing". This is a landing.
 
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pvjin
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Re: AA 757 in scary go-around at Saint Maarten

Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:36 pm

Nothing scary here.
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SWALUV
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Re: AA 757 in scary go-around at Saint Maarten

Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:40 pm

Good on the pilots to go around. Never a time where that's a bad choice! Always better to be safe then sorry.
 
777PHX
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Re: AA 757 in scary go-around at Saint Maarten

Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:42 pm

That's not scary, they did what they were supposed to do.
 
elisrosa80
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Re: AA 757 in scary go-around at Saint Maarten

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:00 pm

Here's a link to the Facebook video and an Instagram post by AA crew.

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Maho.Beach.Cam ... 221318270/

Instagram: https://instagram.com/p/BS6hYCBDikX/
 
Whiteguy
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:57 pm

blackbox67 wrote:
Today's 757 to Saint Maarten AA flight 1753 made a last minute go-around after failing to align with runway on final approach to SXM in adverse weather. Went around for a safe landing. Scary stuff ! 2nd botched landing attempt documented this year after Westjet flight 2652.

Image

https://twitter.com/JacdecNew/status/853321396981780480


Wow, and people were questioning the WestJet crew....
 
airjamaica
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:47 pm

blackbox67 wrote:
Today's 757 to Saint Maarten AA flight 1753 made a last minute go-around after failing to align with runway on final approach to SXM in adverse weather. Went around for a safe landing. Scary stuff ! 2nd botched landing attempt documented this year after Westjet flight 2652.


Not certain why a last minute decision by the crew to execute a missed approach procedure during inclement weather to subsequently make a safe landing considered "botched landing" or "scary". Happens all the time. They were trained to do that whenever the need arise. Certainly not qualify for "Breaking News."
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:10 pm

blackbox67 wrote:
Today's 757 to Saint Maarten AA flight 1753 made a last minute go-around after failing to align with runway on final approach to SXM in adverse weather. Went around for a safe landing. Scary stuff ! 2nd botched landing attempt documented this year after Westjet flight 2652.

Image

https://twitter.com/JacdecNew/status/853321396981780480



You must not have watched some of the landing at NRT when there are strong winds.

Not scary dude.
Whatever
 
NickLAX
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:22 pm

NOT going around impacting the ground at a higher sink rate or a wing strike WOULD BE MORE of an issue than a simple go around that happens more than once a day worldwide. Nothing to see here.
 
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:27 pm

Agree. The go around isn't really scary. But what I am curious about is that I don't believe SXM has an ILS and this seems pretty low visibility for Visual Approach.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
mcoatc
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:37 pm

Eh, I wouldn't exactly call it your standard unstabilized missed approach. You're normally calling that around '1000, specific to company and approach of course.

They're essentially shooting a visual in questionable visibility, pop out of the weather and realize inside of a 1/4 mile final that they're not aligned well enough to land. Looks like they call the go just shy of, or over the threshold. Nothing I haven't seen before, but not one you see regularly. People often forget how quickly the pop-up cells can intensify. What looks good at the beginning of the approach suddenly gets ugly on short final.

Probably only scary if you were in one of the cars lingering at the approach end.
 
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Re: AA 757 in scary go-around at Saint Maarten

Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:39 pm

elisrosa80 wrote:
Here's a link to the Facebook video and an Instagram post by AA crew.

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Maho.Beach.Cam ... 221318270/

Instagram: https://instagram.com/p/BS6hYCBDikX/


I don't see the "AA Crew" post. Just a bunch of dumb comments about a photo.
 
flight152
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:46 pm

SuseJ772 wrote:
Agree. The go around isn't really scary. But what I am curious about is that I don't believe SXM has an ILS and this seems pretty low visibility for Visual Approach.

What makes you think there isn't another published instrument approach procedure just because there isn't an ILS?
 
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:53 pm

flight152 wrote:
SuseJ772 wrote:
Agree. The go around isn't really scary. But what I am curious about is that I don't believe SXM has an ILS and this seems pretty low visibility for Visual Approach.

What makes you think there isn't another published instrument approach procedure just because there isn't an ILS?
Instead of being condescending, why don't you help those on this site learn by teaching what it might be and why it doesn't seem to be questionable visibility at that particular airport. I am not aware of any instrument approaches, but would love to know if there are and what the visibility requirements of that approach.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
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FlySail2015
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:40 am

SuseJ772 wrote:
Agree. The go around isn't really scary. But what I am curious about is that I don't believe SXM has an ILS and this seems pretty low visibility for Visual Approach.


You're correct that SXM does not have an ILS. However, although ILSs provide pilots with the lowest minimums, they're not the only kind of instrument approach out there.

SXM Runway 10 has the following instrument approaches and associated AGL minimums for CAT C aircraft (which is what I'm pretty sure, although not positive, the B757 falls under)

RNAV (GNSS) - 688' and 3200m
VOR X - 1026' and 4800m (CAT C and D only)
VOR Y - (CAT A and B only - NA for 757)
VOR Z - 486' and 3500m
LOCATOR - 1026' and 4800m

Source: Jeppessen approach plates

Hope this helps!
 
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:56 am

I just heard Westjet is interesting in merger with American Airlines next month. Just kidding.. LOL! AA pilot is right thing to do go around to avoid sank rate too quick before touchdown.

Q
 
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:14 am

FlySail2015 wrote:
SuseJ772 wrote:
SXM Runway 10 has the following instrument approaches and associated AGL minimums for CAT C aircraft (which is what I'm pretty sure, although not positive, the B757 falls under)


757, MD80, 737, etc. are Approach Category C, the larger stuff (767, MD11, 777, etc.) is Category D.
 
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:29 am

What is that triangle supposed to be for?

OH nvm, i guess thats a play button in a screen shot ?
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Whiteguy
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:42 am

wjcandee wrote:
FlySail2015 wrote:
SuseJ772 wrote:
SXM Runway 10 has the following instrument approaches and associated AGL minimums for CAT C aircraft (which is what I'm pretty sure, although not positive, the B757 falls under)


757, MD80, 737, etc. are Approach Category C, the larger stuff (767, MD11, 777, etc.) is Category D.


The B738 can fall under the D category as well....
 
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Re: AA 757 in scary go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:02 am

elisrosa80 wrote:
Here's a link to the Facebook video and an Instagram post by AA crew.

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Maho.Beach.Cam ... 221318270/

Instagram: https://instagram.com/p/BS6hYCBDikX/


It would have been "scarier" if they added the Jaws theme to the soundtrack.
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wjcandee
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:18 am

You know, I realize from the Instagram photo that it's nowhere near as foggy in real life as it is in the video, which is apparently shot through mist on the camera. The video seems a little doctored.
 
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:19 am

A go around where your wheels are a couple seconds from touching the ground is a pretty late go around, although technically you can go around at any time !

I hope they had good enough visibility and were only trying to stick it despite not being too well aligned, if they only saw they were not aligned at the last second, it would be very bad.
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:22 am

elisrosa80 wrote:
Here's a link to the Facebook video and an Instagram post by AA crew.

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Maho.Beach.Cam ... 221318270/


The video was interesting. They got pretty close before initiating the go-around. It must have been very rapidly fluctuating gusts. It looks like they lowered the nose and throttled back a bit like you would to deal with an increase in airspeed / lift, but the gust was already falling off as they acted, giving them a suddenly high descent rate, so they promptly initiated the go around.

Based on how quickly the aircraft responded, I get the sense the gust picked up again right away. It seems like the landing would have been ok had they for some reason attempted to press it, but as was noted, the unstable approaches means go-around.

Does anyone know if SXM gets much low level turbulence from the wind blowing across the island? If so, I'd imagine the approach probably hadn't been too bad until this last portion that we saw. You can't fault the crew for not going around earlier if there were no problems until the last 10 seconds.
 
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:02 am

wjcandee wrote:
FlySail2015 wrote:
SuseJ772 wrote:
SXM Runway 10 has the following instrument approaches and associated AGL minimums for CAT C aircraft (which is what I'm pretty sure, although not positive, the B757 falls under)


757, MD80, 737, etc. are Approach Category C, the larger stuff (767, MD11, 777, etc.) is Category D.


Small correction: the 767-200 is still a Category C aircraft, Category D starts with the 767-300.
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reltney
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:02 am

Awesome go around. For whatever reason the plane was not in a safe position to land. Go around. Crew did the right thing for the right reason.... Next...

Flown the 757/767 for 12 years. Good video, good decision, no drama except for the flamers/non pilots .
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:56 am

Alignment wasn't quite right, last minute increase in the sink rate, sounds like a good reason to go around to me.

Go-arounds are always interesting. Commonplace, but not a daily event for even frequent travelers or spotters. Better go around than wind up smearing the a/c down the runway.
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PHBVF
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:29 am

Acey559 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
FlySail2015 wrote:


757, MD80, 737, etc. are Approach Category C, the larger stuff (767, MD11, 777, etc.) is Category D.


Small correction: the 767-200 is still a Category C aircraft, Category D starts with the 767-300.


The categories have to do with speed over the threshold, so they are not directly bound to size. An A330, 777-200 is CAT C, while a 777-300 is CAT D.

Catagory A = Speed less than 91 knots
Catagory B = Speed >= 91 and less than 121 knots
Catagory C = Speed >= 121 and less than 141 knots
Catagory D = Speed >= 141 and less than 166 knots
Catagory E = Speed >= 166 knots (only includes certain military aircraft)

These speeds are 1.3 times the stalling speed of the airplane in the landing configuration at MLW.
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wjcandee
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:59 am

You know, I knew all this and idiotically then trusted a summary by a professor at one of the aviation university programs (!!) of which aircraft fit which category. Normally, I would look it up myself. I actually was thinking that it seemed weird that the cross-typed 757/767 would be so different in stall speed and typical speed over the threshold. So thanks for the correction, all.
 
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:00 am

Can this forum stop using the media clickbait we used to mock them for? "SCARY STUFF" etc. Thanks! This is a basic normal go-around that happens dozens of times a week. I hope my comment is acceptable this time...
 
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:55 am

jpetekyxmd80 wrote:
What is that triangle supposed to be for?

OH nvm, i guess thats a play button in a screen shot ?

I thought it was the Illuminati being blamed for a perfectly good go around..
To the people saying they waited too long, it might have been a low level gust, which destabilised the aircraft, rest of the approach could've been perfectly stable and within limits. Nothing to see here people, move along...
I wanna go back upstairs!
 
xdlx
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:06 am

Armchair pilots ...... Enough ! Your Microsoft FS experience does not make you an expert.
 
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Blimpie
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:09 am

Wait, did the OP say, second go around this year for this airport!? STOP the presses this changes everything. this airport is a danger to the flying public and needs to be closed at once, before someone dies in a wreck :roll:

I think, I've seen three go around alone yesterday at National. Better to go around that wreck out. :old:

Now get off my lawn you damn kids before I release the hounds (I mean cats) :stretch:
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longhauler
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:50 pm

mcoatc wrote:
I wouldn't exactly call it your standard unstabilized missed approach. You're normally calling that around '1000, specific to company and approach of course.

This is correct, but there are a few factors to consider.

Yes, there is a 1000' stable/unstabilized gate, there is also a more restrictive 500' gate. Without getting too complicated, the 1000' gate requires lateral, verticle and configuration parameters and the 500' gate adds speed and thrust parameters.

But ... both the 1000' and the 500' parameters must be adhered to, right to flare and touchdown. So even though lower than the gates, if any of those parameters are exceeded or no longer met, then the Pilot Monitoring calls "unstabilized" and the Pilot Flying performs a go-around with no questions asked.

While these are the SOPs where I fly, they are likely similar to all airlines, as ICAO sets out Safety Management Systems guidelines.

I would guess that this is the case here. Somewhere between 500'/MDA and the flare, the flight became unstabilized and the (correct) decision to go around was made. It is a little different from the Westjet incident here a few weeks ago, as this flight appeared to be on a correct vertical profile, whereas the Westjet flight for reasons not yet released was not.
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longhauler
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:56 pm

I should also add that this appears to be a reaction to media hype. The Westjet flight before adding "awareness" and public interest ... then every go-around at the same airport will garner a publication as it appears to be for what readers are looking. In reality, it is not much different that what is going on at United. One visible incident causing a lot of unrelated stories. Let's face it, one can't fart twice on a United flight today without ending up on facebook.

We (correctly) do go-arounds all the time, it is a (safe) nature of the business. Low-energy go-arounds are performed in the simulator yearly. While it is hard to tell if this AA flight was in the low-energy regime, he was certainly close.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
kiowa
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:25 pm

Looks like a dive for the runway then a better choice was made to go-around. I wonder if the non-flying pilot expressed his/her discomfort with trying to land. The cvr would be interesting to listen to.
 
highflier92660
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:37 pm

Wouldn't it be fun to be with the Sunset Bar crowd sucking Heinekens when that 757 spooled-up and went around?

Beyond witnessing how heads-up the guys at American are, we can all lament the days are numbered for such a wonderfully overpowered aircraft. Longhauler: Which aircraft would you rather be in over that SXM runway 10 threshold, a hill off the departure end, the 757 or the wonderfully "fuel-efficient" underpowered tail-dragger, the Boeing 737-900ER? No matter the flight regime, the very definition of low-energy.
 
fly4ever78
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:39 pm

wjcandee wrote:
FlySail2015 wrote:
SuseJ772 wrote:
SXM Runway 10 has the following instrument approaches and associated AGL minimums for CAT C aircraft (which is what I'm pretty sure, although not positive, the B757 falls under)


757, MD80, 737, etc. are Approach Category C, the larger stuff (767, MD11, 777, etc.) is Category D.



The 737-900ER is actually a Category D aircraft as well.
 
zrs70
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:47 pm

Folks, basic and normal things can still be scary.

Thunderstorms are scary.
Tornados are scary.
Bullies are scary.

And being on a flight that does a last minute go around is scary (for the majority of people on board). I guarantee that passengers were looking around nervously, clutching the armrest, and holding the hands of their companions.
20 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2020
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:08 pm

zrs70 wrote:
Folks, basic and normal things can still be scary.

Thunderstorms are scary.
Tornados are scary.
Bullies are scary.

And being on a flight that does a last minute go around is scary (for the majority of people on board). I guarantee that passengers were looking around nervously, clutching the armrest, and holding the hands of their companions.


Ya, I get that people can misunderstand what is "dangerous" vs what is "normal", but I think folks here sometimes downplay the average non-aviation geek's feelings and perceptions, let alone av fans who are nonetheless taken aback by these videos or experiences.
-Dave


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Acey559
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:25 pm

PHBVF wrote:
Acey559 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

757, MD80, 737, etc. are Approach Category C, the larger stuff (767, MD11, 777, etc.) is Category D.


Small correction: the 767-200 is still a Category C aircraft, Category D starts with the 767-300.


The categories have to do with speed over the threshold, so they are not directly bound to size. An A330, 777-200 is CAT C, while a 777-300 is CAT D.

Catagory A = Speed less than 91 knots
Catagory B = Speed >= 91 and less than 121 knots
Catagory C = Speed >= 121 and less than 141 knots
Catagory D = Speed >= 141 and less than 166 knots
Catagory E = Speed >= 166 knots (only includes certain military aircraft)

These speeds are 1.3 times the stalling speed of the airplane in the landing configuration at MLW.


Right. I should have said that my airline instructs us that we use Category C for our 767-200s and Category D for the -300s as a general rule, not made a blanket statement.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
guyanam
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:51 am

Same flight AA 1753 had a weather related problem yesterday (Sunday) and diverted to SJU. ATC had a tough time over the last couple of days as they have to coordinate SXM, SFG, and I believe SBH, SAB and EUX. And this with the intense weather delays. Same stacking and delays of many flights.
 
Max Q
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:32 am

I don't like the dive for the runway, that could have ended very badly, the approach looked too low from the start, that was a real last moment save.
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keesje
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:06 pm

Often on this forum I sense a strong drive to down play any out of normal situation. Without knowing the circumstances and exact indicators you shouldn't dismiss everything automatically. That's not the aviation safety culture I know. I've seen many accidents resulting from situations that, looking back, were endlessly down played / ignored for various reasons. :worried:
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Flighty
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Re: AA 757 in scary go-around at Saint Maarten

Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:25 pm

777PHX wrote:
That's not scary, they did what they were supposed to do.


Perfect example of social media trying to professionalize its conclusions by group idiocy. If 100 of us hit "like," it validates the conclusion drawn on a professional topic. I guess American will apologize and start issuing refunds? Should surgeons do the same based on Twitter verdicts?

The Chinese cultural revolution was a lot like this. Group conclusions were carried out by mobs against intellectuals and people who knew what they were doing. Little children would go around killing people, because they were in charge. Just a thought.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:29 pm

keesje wrote:
Often on this forum I sense a strong drive to down play any out of normal situation. Without knowing the circumstances and exact indicators you shouldn't dismiss everything automatically. That's not the aviation safety culture I know. I've seen many accidents resulting from situations that, looking back, were endlessly down played / ignored for various reasons. :worried:


I agree totally with the first part of your statement. To a passenger being on that plane with how hard they were rocking and rolling and a go around less than 10 seconds before touchdown at a higher than normal bank angle would be scary. I can imagine the cabin crew would see quite a few scared passengers including children getting off the plane.

The last second before an airplane begins its climb during a missed approach almost always looks scary. It takes up to 5 seconds for the engines to spool up to go around power. So essentially whatever situation caused the pilots to make the go around decision is going to usually get worse for a couple seconds before the airplane can get positive climb. In the video we see a noticeable change in bank angle for a second or two before a positive stable climb begins. That could have been as a result of a gust that caused the pilots to do a go around or it could have been that the number 2 engine accelerated faster. On an older 757 with thrust cables and potentially engines with different hours on them they may not have accelerated completely evenly which could result in a go around like the one we saw in the video.

What I don't see is danger or a safety problem. They were in an unstable approach and did a go around in poor weather. While not a daily occurrence it happens and a go around is not one of critical safety related events that needs a SDR sent to the FAA. Rejected takeoffs, in flight engine shutdowns and diversions caused by mechanical reasons are what the FAA watches. A go around can look scary on a video but I don't think it is reasonable to question the safety culture because of one single event.
 
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Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:37 pm

Max Q wrote:
I don't like the dive for the runway, that could have ended very badly, the approach looked too low from the start, that was a real last moment save.


It is hard to know if they really did dive for the runway or not. I know when doing pilot training from the very start they tell you not to dive for the runway. I see a few different possibilities.

The first is that they were in a crab dealing with a crosswind without the aid of an ILS approach. When they started to exit the crab, they were not stabilized on the centerline and may have dived a bit trying to save the approach.

Second there could have been a gust. There is a beach right where they got in the upset bank angle. There is terrain with a higher elevation then they were at and given the crab the crosswind may have suddenly changed. That could cause that upset.

Given that it takes a few seconds to spool up the engines and start positive climb, it may have looked like they dived for the runway when they were already initiating the go around and the number two engine spooled up faster than the number one engine.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3641
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: AA 757 in scary go-around at Saint Maarten

Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:41 pm

Flighty wrote:
777PHX wrote:
That's not scary, they did what they were supposed to do.


Perfect example of social media trying to professionalize its conclusions by group idiocy. If 100 of us hit "like," it validates the conclusion drawn on a professional topic. I guess American will apologize and start issuing refunds? Should surgeons do the same based on Twitter verdicts?

The Chinese cultural revolution was a lot like this. Group conclusions were carried out by mobs against intellectuals and people who knew what they were doing. Little children would go around killing people, because they were in charge. Just a thought.


A good pilot is going to get on the intercom as soon as they reasonably can (once they executed the go around, reconfigured the airplane, communicated with ATC and workload has decreased) and calm the passengers down. There will be people who are scared and terrified. Regular turbulence can scare people. A rocky landing with a late go around will really scare some. A good captain is going to recognize this and calm the situation down. That will result in fewer overdramatize stories on Facebook and pictures of people kissing the ground.

Unfortunately now that we have videos anything can get blown out of proportion on social media.
 
sgbroimp
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:35 pm

Re: AA 757 go-around at Saint Maarten

Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:48 pm

Do we have enough info to know for sure this was weather-related, unstabilized or not? Possible he saw (or thought he saw) an aircraft on the active and/or was told to go around?

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