WIBOY90
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AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:40 am

Interesting indeed. I'm sure DL and UA would happily take on some of them as customers.


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atcsundevil
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:04 am

The teams they're dropping:
- Arizona Cardinals
- Baltimore Ravens
- Indianapolis Colts
- Jacksonville Jaguars
- Miami Dolphins
- Pittsburgh Steelers

They'll continue operating for:
- Carolina Panthers
- Dallas Cowboys
- Philadelphia Eagles

Interesting that they're dropping two hub city teams (plus a former US hub) while retaining three. I'm sure it has little bearing on strategic importance, but it could perhaps reflect their marketing priorities.
 
behramjee
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:09 am

These charter prices for NFL teams that AA/DL/UA give out, do they cover all net costs or just operating costs? I hope the former (net = operating + financing + fixed overhead costs).

Also I remember Air Canada used to operate an all J class narrow body aircraft (changed overnight) for some sport teams (NBA I think), so do these U.S. carriers for NFL charters reconfigure the aircraft to ensure all these huge NFL players get a J class seat size or they leave it as is?
 
wjcandee
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:11 am

Depending upon the schedule, it's going to require several additional available wide body aircraft to handle those teams, and none of them are in a place where Delta or United has a Hub. So it's a little more involved for them. There is plenty of time to figure out how to service those teams, so maybe one or the other or both will take them on. But if not, certainly Omni or Atlas might be interested in the work. And those carriers might be able to offer even a larger plane as a way to get the business. The NFL teams insurers, or individual players insurers, may require the use of a scheduled carrier, however.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:20 am

Any chance EA comes in with a multiple aircraft bid for one or more of the teams? They were doing charters for the SF Giants, last I heard.
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N717TW
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:28 am

The Pats charters, and therefore I assume the same for most NFL teams but have no basis for knowing, are standard 757 and/or 767 aircraft although each player gets their own row of 2 or 3 seats. The catering is significantly upgraded too.
 
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N717TW
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:32 am

is UPS still in the sports charter biz? they were throwing in rows of seats for weekend flights and did a number of college teams back in the aughts...made sense operationally (but no idea if it made sense financially) as their fleet more or less sits idol from Friday morning until Sunday night.
 
b747400erf
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:58 am

N717TW wrote:
is UPS still in the sports charter biz? they were throwing in rows of seats for weekend flights and did a number of college teams back in the aughts...made sense operationally (but no idea if it made sense financially) as their fleet more or less sits idol from Friday morning until Sunday night.

They have not done any pax operations afaik for a looooong time. Eastern, Miami Air, Atlas, Omni would all love to take the business I am sure. Unless DOD charters come back in a big way again.
 
wjcandee
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:06 am

My recollection is that during the preseason, the teams need to move a bigger roster of players and support staff than once the season starts, so they sometimes get bigger aircraft earlier in the season and then settle on a 767 or such. They also move a substantial amount of gear, so the mission is better suited to an aircraft larger than a 737, but I guess it has been used.
 
KFLLCFII
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:52 am

Even though AA has a large MIA operation, could the issue with the Miami Dolphins be that the team has historically flown out of FLL (which is also much closer to their training facility), requiring a repositioning flight for a widebody anyway?
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stlgph
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:28 am

For what it's worth, the Ravens, Dolphins, Cardinals and Jaguars all have games in London this season.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:25 am

b747400erf wrote:
N717TW wrote:
is UPS still in the sports charter biz? they were throwing in rows of seats for weekend flights and did a number of college teams back in the aughts...made sense operationally (but no idea if it made sense financially) as their fleet more or less sits idol from Friday morning until Sunday night.

They have not done any pax operations afaik for a looooong time. Eastern, Miami Air, Atlas, Omni would all love to take the business I am sure. Unless DOD charters come back in a big way again.

I don't know how interested they would be. The NFL charters take a whole plane out of service for two days. That is a lot of revenue potential. Airlines like Atlas and Omni might lose three days of operation since using the plane in the middle of the charter might be tough.

I wonder if UA and DL will be willing to pick up all the flying. We might start seeing a pair of 737s used if there are not enough larger planes. If some teams are ok with 737s that might open up Southwest to charters.
 
DaufuskieGuy
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:44 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
N717TW wrote:
is UPS still in the sports charter biz? they were throwing in rows of seats for weekend flights and did a number of college teams back in the aughts...made sense operationally (but no idea if it made sense financially) as their fleet more or less sits idol from Friday morning until Sunday night.

They have not done any pax operations afaik for a looooong time. Eastern, Miami Air, Atlas, Omni would all love to take the business I am sure. Unless DOD charters come back in a big way again.

I don't know how interested they would be. The NFL charters take a whole plane out of service for two days. That is a lot of revenue potential. Airlines like Atlas and Omni might lose three days of operation since using the plane in the middle of the charter might be tough.

I wonder if UA and DL will be willing to pick up all the flying. We might start seeing a pair of 737s used if there are not enough larger planes. If some teams are ok with 737s that might open up Southwest to charters.


as 757/767s leave service there will have to be changes, either up to 787/330 or multiple 737/320. my guess would be the latter.
 
B757capt
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:54 pm

The stealers charters were never easy. You would watch them ferry widebodies in and out of PIT and the cities for the games. It seemed crazy at the time and now I know I wasn't the only one.
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longhauler
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:03 pm

behramjee wrote:
These charter prices for NFL teams that AA/DL/UA give out, do they cover all net costs or just operating costs? I hope the former (net = operating + financing + fixed overhead costs).

Also I remember Air Canada used to operate an all J class narrow body aircraft (changed overnight) for some sport teams (NBA I think), so do these U.S. carriers for NFL charters reconfigure the aircraft to ensure all these huge NFL players get a J class seat size or they leave it as is?

It would take longer than overnight to reconfigure an aircraft from all J to a scheduled J/Y configuration. Depending on the aircraft, it can take up to about a week.

AC still flies a fleet of all J "AC Jetz" flights for sports teams and other charters. These are dedicated aircraft for the season (and some are never reconfigured, staying all J). If other requirements pop up, the Customer is offered a regular J/Y aircraft, which they quite often accept. This is occuring right now, as going into the post season, unplanned NHL charters are run for playoffs.
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par13del
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:14 pm

I'll go with stlgph, the selection of teams to drop has to do with the LHR games, even though it is paid work, the LHR runs are tough on all involved, and the a/c if it has to be reconfigured will be out of regular service for an extended time. However, with that number of games, just take the a/c out of scheduled service for the entire season. Shame to drop the Dolphins, but if they could do one LHR with them they could do all.....
 
usflyguy
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:34 pm

Don't confuse charter operations with official airline partner. It's not one in the same.
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910A
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:09 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Any chance EA comes in with a multiple aircraft bid for one or more of the teams? They were doing charters for the SF Giants, last I heard.

Eastern no longer flies the San Francisco Giants, Delta does..

American only serve the Cardinals this past season, prior to that it was Delta, Northwest and America West. For the 10 charters last season, the Cardinals had 8- narrow bodies (757/321's) and 2 767's flights.

par13del wrote:
I'll go with stlgph, the selection of teams to drop has to do with the LHR games, even though it is paid work, the LHR runs are tough on all involved

Virgin Atlantic has been providing the lift to the London games in recent years. Aircraft are not reconfigured for NFL years. They are the same planes as you and I fly on.

Newbiepilot wrote:
The NFL charters take a whole plane out of service for two days.

Not necessity. I've seen the Steelers fly US back in the day to PHX on a 762 and return to PIT on a 321..Green Bay is another, if the other team is flying Delta, the aircraft comes into ATW and then departs to either MSP/DTW and another one is flown in GRB the next afternoon or night depending on when the game is being played.

Ton of myths on NFL charters out there.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:40 pm

behramjee wrote:
These charter prices for NFL teams that AA/DL/UA give out, do they cover all net costs or just operating costs? I hope the former (net = operating + financing + fixed overhead costs)


Given the financial sophistication of the legacies and the fact that they have long been public companies I'm sure they precisely understand their costs and how to bid the charters. They'd be fools if they were bidding using direct costs only.
 
ikramerica
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:47 pm

UA will have a lot of 744s sitting around...
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MIflyer12
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:04 pm

behramjee wrote:
These charter prices for NFL teams that AA/DL/UA give out, do they cover all net costs or just operating costs? I hope the former (net = operating + financing + fixed overhead costs).


Why do you hope that? Can you explain how running a charter flight increases a carrier's financing or fixed overhead costs?
 
michman
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:42 pm

behramjee wrote:
These charter prices for NFL teams that AA/DL/UA give out, do they cover all net costs or just operating costs? I hope the former (net = operating + financing + fixed overhead costs).

Also I remember Air Canada used to operate an all J class narrow body aircraft (changed overnight) for some sport teams (NBA I think), so do these U.S. carriers for NFL charters reconfigure the aircraft to ensure all these huge NFL players get a J class seat size or they leave it as is?


DL has a charter config 757 (formerly A319's) used for NBA/NHL charters. Don't believe they have enough seats for NFL charter work.

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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:29 pm

910A wrote:


Newbiepilot wrote:
The NFL charters take a whole plane out of service for two days.

Not necessity. I've seen the Steelers fly US back in the day to PHX on a 762 and return to PIT on a 321..Green Bay is another, if the other team is flying Delta, the aircraft comes into ATW and then departs to either MSP/DTW and another one is flown in GRB the next afternoon or night depending on when the game is being played.

Ton of myths on NFL charters out there.


What myth? The airplane is tied up with the charter on Friday and again on Sunday where a pair of ferry flights on each day is required unless the game or team is at a hub. That is two missed international rountrips for a 767. Is it worth it? With AA backing off, DL and UA don't have enough spare 757s and 767s for 12 charters a week.
 
smokeybandit
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:42 pm

For the London games, the teams fly out Thursday (or earlier) for the Sunday game. Would that aircraft be on the ground in London that entire time?
 
wjcandee
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:35 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
If some teams are ok with 737s that might open up Southwest to charters.


More likely Sun Country.
 
727200
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:36 pm

Since the majority of NFL games are after the Labor Day weekend, when the summer schedule has decreased, there should be plenty of WB coverage for the games. Plus, NB are used a lot more than people think. Also unless there is slack in the schedule, the plane will not bring them in on Thursday, sit around until Sunday night, then leave to take them back. That would be a waste of resources.
 
BravoOne
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:32 pm

The under floor space required for a football is unbelievable. Usually take a couple of Ryder truck just to haul team property to the stadium as well as the team hotel. Not saying could not be done with a 737/AB, but it would be tight.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:43 pm

The NFL arranges all the charters to London.

The teams have nothing to do with this.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:46 pm

And at US they use a lot of A321s for charters for the NFL teams, it holds all the equipment just fine.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:11 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:


I wonder if UA and DL will be willing to pick up all the flying. We might start seeing a pair of 737s used if there are not enough larger planes. If some teams are ok with 737s that might open up Southwest to charters.


Im assuming they have a hot foot catering requirement. Southwest wouldn't be abe to provide it. I think anything smaller than 757 is no go to moving a NFL team. I see atlas or omni being the possible winners here
 
ytib
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:34 pm

Here is an article from a few years ago about the Denver Broncos and how they go through the charter process. Everything is controlled from food based the team nutritionist working with United to having the same flight attendants.

http://www.denverpost.com/2013/11/29/br ... game-prep/

As have been stated the NFL supplies the flights to London with some teams spending the whole week up to the game in London and others heading in a few days prior.
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n92r03
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:39 pm

The only airline that I know of that takes a plane out of service for the charter was Hawaiian when they flew the Raiders. One would see the Hawaiian 767 on the ramp on Saturday evening and Sunday morning. Perhaps others do it depending on the city location, but most will not have an aircraft on the ground idle.

smokeybandit wrote:
For the London games, the teams fly out Thursday (or earlier) for the Sunday game. Would that aircraft be on the ground in London that entire time?


The NFL handles the London trips and as long as I can remember it has been Virgin. Ferry from wherever to NFL city, overnight, then to London. Then after the game, back to NFL city, overnight, then ferry to wherever.
 
alfa164
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:50 am

n92r03 wrote:
The NFL handles the London trips and as long as I can remember it has been Virgin. Ferry from wherever to NFL city, overnight, then to London. Then after the game, back to NFL city, overnight, then ferry to wherever.


Just seeing "NFL" and "Virgin" in the same sentence conjures more images than I should be contemplating... ;)
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behramjee
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:36 am

SFOtoORD wrote:
behramjee wrote:
These charter prices for NFL teams that AA/DL/UA give out, do they cover all net costs or just operating costs? I hope the former (net = operating + financing + fixed overhead costs)


Given the financial sophistication of the legacies and the fact that they have long been public companies I'm sure they precisely understand their costs and how to bid the charters. They'd be fools if they were bidding using direct costs only.


I used to work for a major African airline in West Africa for 3.5 years and was also in charge of their charter department. We have the Chevron charter contract MON-FRI for their oil workers up and down the Nigerian oil coast using a DH4.

I have lost a bit of charter business to other airlines (especially 2 famous ones in Africa) who use the same aircraft type like we do but they won few times the business as their prices were basically only covering variable costs. One day I asked their Country Manager at a dinner event why he quoted that amount (hes a friend of mine) and his response was "head office approved as it increases my cash flow for Point of Sale".

Hence why I asked what form of costing the U.S. legacy carriers use in general. For me all charters had to cover FULL COSTS otherwise there is no point in operating it as I am taking away a plane used on normal revenue service during the day time on scheduled routes for a charter which usually materializes 24-48 hours prior to departure hence creating a lot of headaches since getting overflight air permits in West/Central Africa is not that easy (especially on weekends).
 
ltbewr
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:06 pm

I am quite sure AA's decision is about the money. They would rather run the widebodies they have to international locations that are more profitable. Let us also not forget we have seen most coach seats get tighter, fewer 1st and Biz class seats on many planes so not suitable to transport many players and support staff who will often be considered 'persons of size'. I suspect in the future we may see more specialized charter operators like those noted in previous posts for NFL and other sports teams or more teams owning or leasing an aircraft with seat configurations more suitable for their needs and possibly usable by other users like corporate bulk charters in the off-season and weekdays.
 
tsra
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:53 pm

It has been a bit since the news came out about AA dropping the six teams. We know Miami Air is picking up the Dolphins and Steelers. Has anyone heard who the rest of the teams will use this year?

The Arizona Cardinals
The Baltimore Ravens
The Indianapolis Colts
The Jacksonville Jaguars
The Miami Dolphins - Miami Air
The Pittsburgh Steelers - Miami Air
 
lavalampluva
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:02 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
If some teams are ok with 737s that might open up Southwest to charters.


More likely Sun Country.

SY works well for college team charters, but they're not set up, configuration wise, for the major sports. MLB, NBA, NFL, NHL expect more of a VIP configuration.

Side note...Do airlines make much $$ from doing sport charters? I mean pro sports are a very seasonal thing, and most of them play a number of games per week, except for NFL.
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tjh8402
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:45 pm

These charters must not be particularly profitable. Both AA and DL are retiring older 757s and 767s. I gets not taking a regular service one off the schedule just for the Charters, but you would think a paid off fully depreciated older one would be good for a service that doesn't fly very often, making fuel burn and operating costs less of an issue, as well as making it easier to keep the plane and a special configuration for sports charters. Obviously, it's not worth it to the airlines to do this, which to me says the sports teams must really be lowballing the bids.
 
boeing777200lr
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:56 pm

Does United Still have a charter 747 sub fleet
 
rbavfan
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:22 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
N717TW wrote:
is UPS still in the sports charter biz? they were throwing in rows of seats for weekend flights and did a number of college teams back in the aughts...made sense operationally (but no idea if it made sense financially) as their fleet more or less sits idol from Friday morning until Sunday night.

They have not done any pax operations afaik for a looooong time. Eastern, Miami Air, Atlas, Omni would all love to take the business I am sure. Unless DOD charters come back in a big way again.

I don't know how interested they would be. The NFL charters take a whole plane out of service for two days. That is a lot of revenue potential. Airlines like Atlas and Omni might lose three days of operation since using the plane in the middle of the charter might be tough.

I wonder if UA and DL will be willing to pick up all the flying. We might start seeing a pair of 737s used if there are not enough larger planes. If some teams are ok with 737s that might open up Southwest to charters.



Those charters tend to cost more and the teams try and get all kinds of freebees "Because were advertising your airline." Also Southwest does not have slack in the fleet to take these charters. It takes air frames used as backups away when they cannot afford that.
 
rbavfan
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:28 pm

ikramerica wrote:
UA will have a lot of 744s sitting around...


Yes that are not getting the fuel inerting system. As such they cannot fly passengers after December. That means charter as well as commercial flights.
 
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RayChuang
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:41 pm

I blame much of this change on the fact AA, DL and UA are doing large-scale retirements of their 767 fleets. I would not be surprised we end up with a situation where the NFL team has to charter two 737-800, 737-900ER or 737 MAX 8 planes for travel to road games within two years.
 
mikeyp224
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:45 pm

RayChuang wrote:
I blame much of this change on the fact AA, DL and UA are doing large-scale retirements of their 767 fleets. I would not be surprised we end up with a situation where the NFL team has to charter two 737-800, 737-900ER or 737 MAX 8 planes for travel to road games within two years.


I think we are already there with the Steelers and Dolphins going with Miami Air this season. The biggest plane they have is the B738.
 
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Joshu
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:48 pm

tsra wrote:
It has been a bit since the news came out about AA dropping the six teams. We know Miami Air is picking up the Dolphins and Steelers. Has anyone heard who the rest of the teams will use this year?


They're going to throw an entire American football team on a 738?

I know that the Ravens typically used an AA 772.

B757capt wrote:
The stealers charters were never easy. You would watch them ferry widebodies in and out of PIT and the cities for the games. It seemed crazy at the time and now I know I wasn't the only one.


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Sooner787
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:49 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
The NFL arranges all the charters to London.

The teams have nothing to do with this.


Those are usually Virgin Atlantic charters.

I know cause I got to go on a VS fam to London
couple years ago for one of the Wembley NFL games.

That was a fun weekend :)
 
blacksoviet
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:51 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:


I wonder if UA and DL will be willing to pick up all the flying. We might start seeing a pair of 737s used if there are not enough larger planes. If some teams are ok with 737s that might open up Southwest to charters.


Im assuming they have a hot foot catering requirement. Southwest wouldn't be abe to provide it. I think anything smaller than 757 is no go to moving a NFL team. I see atlas or omni being the possible winners here

DL could use two MD-90s for a football charter. Maybe UA could put 2 or 3 744s through a D Check to use as a long term charter fleet . They could work out a deal with the NFL to pay the costs of the fuel inerting system.
Last edited by blacksoviet on Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
910A
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:55 pm

Joshu wrote:

They're going to throw an entire American football team on a 738?


A 738 can handle a American football team without any issues. Some teams used a American/US Airways Airbus 321 at times the last few years..
 
blacksoviet
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:58 pm

910A wrote:
Joshu wrote:

They're going to throw an entire American football team on a 738?


A 738 can handle a American football team without any issues. Some teams used a American/US Airways Airbus 321 at times the last few years..

A 738 is smaller than a A321.
 
slider
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Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:12 pm

910A wrote:
Joshu wrote:

They're going to throw an entire American football team on a 738?


A 738 can handle a American football team without any issues. Some teams used a American/US Airways Airbus 321 at times the last few years..


College teams travel on 738s, but most of them also truck the bulk of their equipment.

NO WAY in hell an NFL team can travel these days fully on an 800. No way.
 
AAvgeek744
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:08 pm

Re: AA drops 6 NFL charter operations

Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:24 pm

Joshu wrote:
tsra wrote:
It has been a bit since the news came out about AA dropping the six teams. We know Miami Air is picking up the Dolphins and Steelers. Has anyone heard who the rest of the teams will use this year?


They're going to throw an entire American football team on a 738?

I know that the Ravens typically used an AA 772.

B757capt wrote:
The stealers charters were never easy. You would watch them ferry widebodies in and out of PIT and the cities for the games. It seemed crazy at the time and now I know I wasn't the only one.


SIX TIME SUBERBOWL CHAMPS - STEELERS!


Yeah, no way to carry an NFL charter on a 737. I think all teams use widebodies, maybe some 757 or 321. Your looking at 53 REALLY BIG players on the roster, a dozen or more coaches & trainers, staff. Adds up in a hurry.

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