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Luisvalero
Topic Author
Posts: 207
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:14 pm

European carriers in South Africa

Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:57 pm

Hi everyone

I'm just wondering how are performing european carriers in South Africa these days. European carriers serving South Africa include British Airways, Virgin Atlantic, Iberia, Air France, KLM, Swiss, Edelweiss, Lufthansa and Turkish Airlines. How is Doing Iberia with i'ts new service to JNB? And Swiss? And Also I'm wondering if there is any plan of TAP, Austrian, Alitalia or Brussels Airlines to launch a JNB service. I can see TAP begining JNB, due to Huge portuguese diaspora in South Africa, + Easy connections through LIS to LHR, MAN, BCN, DUB, ORY, BRU, AMS etc
Also I can see British airways starting DUR, Maybe as a tag of one of it's Daily service to JNB or KLM as well. DUR seems to be a good market demanding long haul routes, which are done thanks to EK, QR and TK
 
goldorak
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Re: European carriers in South Africa

Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:36 pm

No precise figures, but I'm pretty sure AF does well. The flights to JNB are always packed at the front. I never took AF flight to CPT, but knowing they extended it year-round, it is maybe a sign that is does well.
 
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SR380
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Re: European carriers in South Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:05 am

Swiss And Edelweiss are often packed as well. South Africa is a very popular destination for Swiss travelers. With all the current Star Alliance career flying there, I don't see Austrian, Brussels Airlines nor TAP flying there soon
 
TonyBurr
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Re: European carriers in South Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:28 am

Many years ago AUSTRIAN did fly to JNB.I believe TAP use to fly to JNB with a one stop flight. BA use to fly non stop to Durban. Alitalia use to fly to JNB. I do not think Brussels Airlines ever flew there, they are big in other parts of Africa. There seems to be a lot of turnover of European airlines to South Africa.
 
NichCage
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Re: European carriers in South Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:30 am

Brussels Airlines serves 23 destinations in Africa, but I wonder why JNB is not one of them. Is there a market between BRU and JNB?

Another question I have is about KLM in JNB. Most European carriers such as Lufthansa and Swiss fly overnight from there hubs to JNB, and have a late night departure from JNB to arrive back in Europe in the early morning. Why does KLM operate from AMS in the early morning (10 AM) for a late arrival in JNB (11 PM)? The flight from JNB to AMS takes off a few hours later like at 12 AM and arrives a little after 10 AM. I wonder why KLM does that.
 
NichCage
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Re: European carriers in South Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:30 am

Brussels Airlines serves 23 destinations in Africa, but I wonder why JNB is not one of them. Is there a market between BRU and JNB?

Another question I have is about KLM in JNB. Most European carriers such as Lufthansa and Swiss fly overnight from there hubs to JNB, and have a late night departure from JNB to arrive back in Europe in the early morning. Why does KLM operate from AMS in the early morning (10 AM) for a late arrival in JNB (11 PM)? The flight from JNB to AMS takes off a few hours later like at 12 AM and arrives a little after 10 AM. I wonder why KLM does that.
 
Luisvalero
Topic Author
Posts: 207
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Re: European carriers in South Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:34 am

SR380 wrote:
Swiss And Edelweiss are often packed as well. South Africa is a very popular destination for Swiss travelers. With all the current Star Alliance career flying there, I don't see Austrian, Brussels Airlines nor TAP flying there soon


I Think TAP could do fine. TAP is Huge on connections, focusing mainly a possible JNB service with connections to LHR, CDG, BRU, BCN, CPH and Also EWR, JFK, BOS, MIA & YYZ. But IB has resumed first it's service to MAD which I suppose it has the same connection function + Point to Point demand (Spanish tourism has increased a Lot in South Africa). I've always thought that IB has had an excelent opportunity to cater Africa-Europe traffic such as RAM, but it's focused mainly on Latin America.
 
CXA330300
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Re: European carriers in South Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:18 am

TAP cut JNB a number of years ago because the flight was bleeding money. There's been talk about it coming back now a few times a week.

Most Portuguese folks in SA don't go to Portugal very often, if at all - it's also a rather low-yield market.
Home airport now: DCA/IAD
 
Luisvalero
Topic Author
Posts: 207
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Re: European carriers in South Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:51 am

NichCage wrote:
Brussels Airlines serves 23 destinations in Africa, but I wonder why JNB is not one of them. Is there a market between BRU and JNB?

Another question I have is about KLM in JNB. Most European carriers such as Lufthansa and Swiss fly overnight from there hubs to JNB, and have a late night departure from JNB to arrive back in Europe in the early morning. Why does KLM operate from AMS in the early morning (10 AM) for a late arrival in JNB (11 PM)? The flight from JNB to AMS takes off a few hours later like at 12 AM and arrives a little after 10 AM. I wonder why KLM does that.


I Think the main reason why Brussels Airlines doesn't serve JNB it's because is already well covered by it's partners, Lufthansa and Swiss. Lufthansa Group has divided it's african operations: Brussels Airlines connects Brussels with French speaking Africa + ACC, BJL, LAD, ROB, FNA. Swiss serves NAI, DAR + JNB and Lufthansa serves Nigeria, Ghana +JNB, CPT
 
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BartSimpson
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Re: European carriers in South Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:36 am

Every time I fly the Europe - South Africa route (either to CPT or JNB) the planes are always full to the last eat (unfortunately). So all of the carriers should do fine on this market. Of course, I can't give you more precise numbers.

The only times I had filghts with only 1/3 load factor was with Afriqiyah around 2010 - go figure...
 
berari
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Re: European carriers in South Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:04 am

NichCage wrote:
Brussels Airlines serves 23 destinations in Africa, but I wonder why JNB is not one of them. Is there a market between BRU and JNB?

Another question I have is about KLM in JNB. Most European carriers such as Lufthansa and Swiss fly overnight from there hubs to JNB, and have a late night departure from JNB to arrive back in Europe in the early morning. Why does KLM operate from AMS in the early morning (10 AM) for a late arrival in JNB (11 PM)? The flight from JNB to AMS takes off a few hours later like at 12 AM and arrives a little after 10 AM. I wonder why KLM does that.


I think that KLM times its flights to connect with North American arrivals at AMS both ways. Other airlines' flights require a day time layover in Europe for North America-JNB travellers.
 
Andy33
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Re: European carriers in South Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:07 am

When thinking about BA tag-ons or new destinations in South Africa, don't forget the local BA franchise carrier Comair. In effect BA has its own network serving the RSA and neighbouring countries, with planes in BA livery, crews in BA uniform, and flights with BA flight numbers (not codeshares but the sole flight number).
As I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong) if you arrive in South Africa internationally you must go through immigration, baggage reclaim, and customs at the first airport you land at. As a result tag-ons make little sense, everyone has to get off and all the bags have to be sent to the terminal anyway, the passengers and bags might just as well board a "BA by Comair" 737 for the final leg as get back on the longhaul plane they've just left.
BA/Comair is a South African airline and can carry RSA domestic passengers. BA longhaul is a UK airline and can't. So any tag-on would have to pay its way just on the through passengers, and of course the operating costs would be higher - bigger plane, and more crew members.
 
iAmAlaska49
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Re: European carriers in South Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:07 am

Doesn't BA have a subsidiary in South Africa that they use for down there?? Comair is what it's called I think.
 
Andy33
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Re: European carriers in South Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:10 am

iAmAlaska49 wrote:
Doesn't BA have a subsidiary in South Africa that they use for down there?? Comair is what it's called I think.


We posted at the same time. Not a subsidiary, BA only owns around 15% of Comair, it's actually a franchise carrier.
 
iAmAlaska49
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:06 am

Re: European carriers in South Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:22 am

Andy33 wrote:
iAmAlaska49 wrote:
Doesn't BA have a subsidiary in South Africa that they use for down there?? Comair is what it's called I think.


We posted at the same time. Not a subsidiary, BA only owns around 15% of Comair, it's actually a franchise carrier.

I see. Sorry for missing your post by the way. But thanks for the info.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: European carriers in South Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:11 am

SN's strength lies in connecting under-serviced African destinations, a strategy similar to Sabena- even to them JNB was an add on sector from Kinshasa and not very frequent. With so much competition on South African routes it's best left to others.
 
stylo777
Posts: 2809
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:32 pm

Re: European carriers in South Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:24 am

South Africa is a very low yield market; in which you maximise your profit by selling all seats (and even more). The main reason why all flights are full. Does it pay off? Certainly not and I'm sure all network planners are aware of this fact. Nevertheless, it contributes well to the overall network result thus the (big) presence of almost all EU-carriers in JNB.
On the other hand, LH changed from eco heavy 380 to premium heavy 748 and is earning money as far as some insiders told me. Not due to the demand, but because of the aircraft type.

TK has also a quite interesting schedule with tag-ons to maputo and durban (iirc).
 
LJ
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Re: European carriers in South Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:34 am

NichCage wrote:
Another question I have is about KLM in JNB. Most European carriers such as Lufthansa and Swiss fly overnight from there hubs to JNB, and have a late night departure from JNB to arrive back in Europe in the early morning. Why does KLM operate from AMS in the early morning (10 AM) for a late arrival in JNB (11 PM)? The flight from JNB to AMS takes off a few hours later like at 12 AM and arrives a little after 10 AM. I wonder why KLM does that.


KLM doesn't want to ground an airplane the entire day at JNB and CPT. Though this may impact yields, it saves a lot of costs (which is if you can't get the yield anyway a good option). You'll see that KLM doesn't have many (if at all as LAD isn't a daystopper anymore) destinations where it parks its aircraft the entire day (GRU and GIG are also not daystoppers).

berari wrote:
I think that KLM times its flights to connect with North American arrivals at AMS both ways. Other airlines' flights require a day time layover in Europe for North America-JNB travellers.


Which is an added bonus.
 
Luisvalero
Topic Author
Posts: 207
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:14 pm

Re: European carriers in South Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:27 am

stylo777 wrote:
South Africa is a very low yield market; in which you maximise your profit by selling all seats (and even more). The main reason why all flights are full. Does it pay off? Certainly not and I'm sure all network planners are aware of this fact. Nevertheless, it contributes well to the overall network result thus the (big) presence of almost all EU-carriers in JNB.
On the other hand, LH changed from eco heavy 380 to premium heavy 748 and is earning money as far as some insiders told me. Not due to the demand, but because of the aircraft type.

TK has also a quite interesting schedule with tag-ons to maputo and durban (iirc).


Does anyone know how is Doing IB on it's MAD-JNB? and which are the main connections through MAD? Maybe JFK, ORD and MIA?
 
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Eindhoven
Posts: 194
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Re: European carriers in South Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:01 pm

Nobody mentioned the EW CGN-CPT flights? If they can make it work as a LCC it must perform good.
 
northsouthnomad
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:03 pm

Re: European carriers in South Africa

Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:30 pm

TonyBurr wrote:
Many years ago AUSTRIAN did fly to JNB.I believe TAP use to fly to JNB with a one stop flight. BA use to fly non stop to Durban. Alitalia use to fly to JNB. I do not think Brussels Airlines ever flew there, they are big in other parts of Africa. There seems to be a lot of turnover of European airlines to South Africa.


BA always flew via Joburg to Durban. Durban demand is likely to be met with Norwegian plan to offer Gatwick - Durban non stop flights in the future. BA have been waiting and thinking about introducing a Durban flight forever, this might sput them into action or stop any plans they might have.
 
northsouthnomad
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:03 pm

Re: European carriers in South Africa

Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:32 pm

Andy33 wrote:
When thinking about BA tag-ons or new destinations in South Africa, don't forget the local BA franchise carrier Comair. In effect BA has its own network serving the RSA and neighbouring countries, with planes in BA livery, crews in BA uniform, and flights with BA flight numbers (not codeshares but the sole flight number).
As I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong) if you arrive in South Africa internationally you must go through immigration, baggage reclaim, and customs at the first airport you land at. As a result tag-ons make little sense, everyone has to get off and all the bags have to be sent to the terminal anyway, the passengers and bags might just as well board a "BA by Comair" 737 for the final leg as get back on the longhaul plane they've just left.
BA/Comair is a South African airline and can carry RSA domestic passengers. BA longhaul is a UK airline and can't. So any tag-on would have to pay its way just on the through passengers, and of course the operating costs would be higher - bigger plane, and more crew members.



For tag on flights, if you land in Joburg you DO NOT need to leave the aircraft and collect your luggage. It is a quick stop, offloading Joburg bound passengers.Tag on flights in SA cannot pick up new passengers in Joburg. The flight then continues to Durban (Qatar/Turkish) and off loads the Durban bound passengers who pass through immigration and collect luggage in Durban.
 
Andy33
Posts: 2569
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

Re: European carriers in South Africa

Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:08 pm

northsouthnomad wrote:
Andy33 wrote:
When thinking about BA tag-ons or new destinations in South Africa, don't forget the local BA franchise carrier Comair. In effect BA has its own network serving the RSA and neighbouring countries, with planes in BA livery, crews in BA uniform, and flights with BA flight numbers (not codeshares but the sole flight number).
As I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong) if you arrive in South Africa internationally you must go through immigration, baggage reclaim, and customs at the first airport you land at. As a result tag-ons make little sense, everyone has to get off and all the bags have to be sent to the terminal anyway, the passengers and bags might just as well board a "BA by Comair" 737 for the final leg as get back on the longhaul plane they've just left.
BA/Comair is a South African airline and can carry RSA domestic passengers. BA longhaul is a UK airline and can't. So any tag-on would have to pay its way just on the through passengers, and of course the operating costs would be higher - bigger plane, and more crew members.



For tag on flights, if you land in Joburg you DO NOT need to leave the aircraft and collect your luggage. It is a quick stop, offloading Joburg bound passengers.Tag on flights in SA cannot pick up new passengers in Joburg. The flight then continues to Durban (Qatar/Turkish) and off loads the Durban bound passengers who pass through immigration and collect luggage in Durban.


Thanks for the information. I stand corrected. Can Durban handle A380s, as the BA flights from LHR to JNB are both A380 for part of the year, and 1 x744 + 1x A380 for the rest of the time. I'm pretty sure they've landed there on diversion, but scheduled service might be another matter.

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