Luisvalero
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Air France & Brussels Airlines Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:55 pm

Hi everyone

AF and Brussels Airlines compete in Lot of cities in Africa, mainly in west Africa. Does anyone know how profitable are these routes? Are mainly focused on folks? What abaut business? Are these routes mainly Point to Point or for connections?

Both Airlines are operating in ABJ, ACC (recently launch by AF), CKY, COO, DKR, DLA, FNA, FIH, LFW, LAD, OUA & NSI


Brussels Airlines serves without AF competition: BJL, BJM, EBB, KGL & ROB

Air France serves without Brussels competition: NKC, BKO, NDJ, NIM, LOS, ABV, PHC, SSG, BZV, PNR, BGF, LBV, JNB, CPT, TNR & JIB
 
TheGeordielad
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Re: Air France & Brussels Airlines Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:11 pm

I believe AF service to ABJ is doing well.Not sure about the others but apparently a few months ago AF apparently losses on 33% of long haul routes and some will be in Africa.
 
LJ
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Re: Air France & Brussels Airlines Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:12 pm

Luisvalero wrote:
AF and Brussels Airlines compete in Lot of cities in Africa, mainly in west Africa. Does anyone know how profitable are these routes? Are mainly focused on folks? What abaut business? Are these routes mainly Point to Point or for connections?


AF pointed out not long ago that though yields are high, costs are high as well and not so profitable as many expect

Luisvalero wrote:
Brussels Airlines serves without AF competition: BJL, BJM, EBB, KGL & ROB


EBB, KGL and ROB are served by KL. AF and KL divide their African destinations.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Air France & Brussels Airlines Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:15 pm

Obviously, many routes are based on colonial links. Historically many routes have been reported as quite profitable (many complaints of high fares), but I suspect in recent years this has changed as competition changes, and as carriers like ME3, TK grow in Africa and as African airlines themselves (ET, KQ. etc) service more overseas markets.
At recent earning event, it was mentioned TK had become the #1 market share airline from Europe to Africa so the once position AF/SN have held has certainly been eroded.
mercure f-wtcc
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Air France & Brussels Airlines Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:55 pm

Don't forget about LH's network in Africa including ADD, ACC, PHC, ABV, LOS and others. LH flies their F-equipped A330s to Nigeria. This is definitely a factor as to why SN doesn't serve some of the places it doesn't.
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Luisvalero
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Re: Air France & Brussels Airlines Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:00 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Don't forget about LH's network in Africa including ADD, ACC, PHC, ABV, LOS and others. LH flies their F-equipped A330s to Nigeria. This is definitely a factor as to why SN doesn't serve some of the places it doesn't.


LH's network in Africa is really weak if it's compared to AF/KLM, although it's well covered through BRU, which is home to Brussels Airlines, partner airline of LH. ACC is already served by Brussels Airlines. LOS and ABV are quite well served through AF BA KL LH, so there's a Lot of competition there + RAM, TK. I Think ADD could work fine for Brussels Airlines, because it's a star hub with ET, route which is already served nonstop by ET, but if Brussels Airlines launches BRU-ADD it can cover it's big hole in Africa (Kenya, Tanzania, South Africa, Zambia, Zimbabue etc)
BRU seems to be a Huge gateway for africans in Europe, but competition is big (TK, AF, RAM being 3 major competitors)
 
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Aesma
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Re: Air France & Brussels Airlines Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:24 pm

My French multinational company has business or even subsidies in many African countries. Our company policy would greatly favor employees flying on AF.
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LH748
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Re: Air France & Brussels Airlines Africa

Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:02 pm

I would expect that Abidjan performs well as it even gets the AF 380. Except for JNB I can't think of another 380 destination in Africa despite the many destinations that EK serves.
I heard that LOS is one of the favorite destinations of BA cabin crews because of good duty free sales and rather comfortable circumstances like no time difference. How is it with AF's crews; do they like the African routes more than other?
Also, I am wondering if the crews have a layover at all (subsaharan) African destinations. How is it in terms of comfort and safety?
306 310 318 319 320 321 333 343 388 ATR72 733 737 738 739 743 744 748 752 753 763 764 772 77W 788 CRJ7 CRJ9 E170 F100 MD11 RJ1H
AA AB AC AF AK AZ BA DE DL EW FD FR HF HG IB IR MF KU LH LT LX OD TG TK TP UA VJ VN WN W6 YP YW
 
Avionics09
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Re: Air France & Brussels Airlines Africa

Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:02 am

LH748 wrote:
I would expect that Abidjan performs well as it even gets the AF 380. Except for JNB I can't think of another 380 destination in Africa despite the many destinations that EK serves.


You can add Casablanca to the list of African cities served by the A380 ;)
 
berari
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Re: Air France & Brussels Airlines Africa

Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:18 am

Luisvalero wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Don't forget about LH's network in Africa including ADD, ACC, PHC, ABV, LOS and others. LH flies their F-equipped A330s to Nigeria. This is definitely a factor as to why SN doesn't serve some of the places it doesn't.


LH's network in Africa is really weak if it's compared to AF/KLM, although it's well covered through BRU, which is home to Brussels Airlines, partner airline of LH. ACC is already served by Brussels Airlines. LOS and ABV are quite well served through AF BA KL LH, so there's a Lot of competition there + RAM, TK. I Think ADD could work fine for Brussels Airlines, because it's a star hub with ET, route which is already served nonstop by ET, but if Brussels Airlines launches BRU-ADD it can cover it's big hole in Africa (Kenya, Tanzania, South Africa, Zambia, Zimbabue etc)
BRU seems to be a Huge gateway for africans in Europe, but competition is big (TK, AF, RAM being 3 major competitors)


Brussels Airlines and Ethiopian have not partnered on services despite Ethiopian's presence at BRU for many years and with similar cities served across Africa and Europe. If anything, in my opinion, they see each other as direct competitors, and they are both strong brands on the African continent. LH codeshares with Ethiopian but keeps Brussels separate from Ethiopian.

Ethiopian has signed many codeshare agreements with Star carriers with new service like Vienna and Singapore also tied to codeshare services. At the same time, in some cases, it has taken it a long time to establish such agreements (UA out of IAD took many years; AC would only codeshare ex-Europe but not at YYZ.) SN and TG, each with hubs at BRU and BKK, are airlines that ET does not codeshare with despite regular established service into said airports.
 
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LH748
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Re: Air France & Brussels Airlines Africa

Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:24 am

Avionics09 wrote:
LH748 wrote:
I would expect that Abidjan performs well as it even gets the AF 380. Except for JNB I can't think of another 380 destination in Africa despite the many destinations that EK serves.


You can add Casablanca to the list of African cities served by the A380 ;)


Thank you for the update :smile:
I had not noticed that yet
306 310 318 319 320 321 333 343 388 ATR72 733 737 738 739 743 744 748 752 753 763 764 772 77W 788 CRJ7 CRJ9 E170 F100 MD11 RJ1H
AA AB AC AF AK AZ BA DE DL EW FD FR HF HG IB IR MF KU LH LT LX OD TG TK TP UA VJ VN WN W6 YP YW
 
Luisvalero
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Re: Air France & Brussels Airlines Africa

Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:50 am

I Think Most Non African Airlines (AF, Brussels, KLM, TK) make good money as well connecting african cities which doesn't have direct flights. For example Brussels Airlines is the only operator in BJL-DKR, TK is the sole operator on OUA-CKY, etc
 
ubeema
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Re: Air France & Brussels Airlines Africa

Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:24 am

LH748 wrote:
Also, I am wondering if the crews have a layover at all (subsaharan) African destinations. How is it in terms of comfort and safety?


I have seen crews around town at PNR, BZV, DLA, LBV. Hotel amenities are some what lower compared to first world countries standards but very safe. Most flights are 5+ hours would be terrible if they had no layover.
 
sf260
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Re: Air France & Brussels Airlines Africa

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:17 pm

Brussels Airlines network in Africa has a decent profit margin, in the high high single digits, it is nothing extraordinary and can be quite volatile year-on-year in certain regions (political unrest, safety, war, epidemics, etc), but if you look at the whole network, it remains quite stable.

SN plans to extend it's Africa offer in the next couple of years, it aims to become a leader*, rather a than a specialist. They look to grow from 6.5 Africa-dedicated A330's to 10, i.e. a growth of 50% by the early 2020's.

Some observations of the capacity changes in the last 5-6 years (measured by seats/week):
-ME3+TK grew their offer by around 50%, Emirates is by far the largest by seats, TK by number of destinations. They put a lot of pressure on EU carriers.
-All LH Group airlines, except SN, reduced their offer. SN grew by around 20%. SN is almost as big as LH and LX combined.
-AF-KLM remained status quo (almost negligible growth)
 
airbazar
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Re: Air France & Brussels Airlines Africa

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:53 pm

This topic comes up from time to time. There's a reason why AF has lots of routes to Africa, SN ditto, TP to Brazil (and Africa). It's the same reason BA has lots of flights to the U.S.A. and India. Former colonial ties, led over time to favorable and expanded business ties, and migration of population. That generates high demand for both VFR and business traffic between the countries.
 
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American 767
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Re: Air France & Brussels Airlines Africa

Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:05 pm

Luisvalero wrote:
Hi everyone

AF and Brussels Airlines compete in Lot of cities in Africa, mainly in west Africa. Does anyone know how profitable are these routes? Are mainly focused on folks? What abaut business? Are these routes mainly Point to Point or for connections?

Both Airlines are operating in ABJ, ACC (recently launch by AF), CKY, COO, DKR, DLA, FNA, FIH, LFW, LAD, OUA & NSI


Brussels Airlines serves without AF competition: BJL, BJM, EBB, KGL & ROB

Air France serves without Brussels competition: NKC, BKO, NDJ, NIM, LOS, ABV, PHC, SSG, BZV, PNR, BGF, LBV, JNB, CPT, TNR & JIB


And what about CAI and NBO? I don't see any of these two destinations in your post. I know Air France has flown to CAI. I don't know about Brussels Airlines flying to NBO but I know for sure the old Sabena has flown to NBO.

JNB and CPT: Yes I know Brussels Airlines doesn't fly to South Africa. The route BRU-JNB was never restarted since the collapse of Sabena in 2001, although I believe that Sobelair has flown the route in 2002/2003 for a short time, probably because SN Brussels figured they would loose money on that route. I believe that Sabena did stop flying to JNB before collapsing.

As for Air France destinations in Africa, many of them must be former UTA destinations. Remember, UTA was strong in Africa.
Ben Soriano
 
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bwest
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Re: Air France & Brussels Airlines Africa

Tue May 16, 2017 9:07 am

airbazar wrote:
This topic comes up from time to time. There's a reason why AF has lots of routes to Africa, SN ditto, TP to Brazil (and Africa). It's the same reason BA has lots of flights to the U.S.A. and India. Former colonial ties, led over time to favorable and expanded business ties, and migration of population. That generates high demand for both VFR and business traffic between the countries.

Not entirely correct. A large part of the Brussels Airlines African network is focused on West-Africa, which has no colonial ties with Belgium. Belgium only had colonies in central Africa: Congo, Rwanda and Burundi.

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