AF and BOG plans after A340 retirement

juan885 · Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:29 pm

Hello, A.net! long time lurker, and first-time poster here.

AF should be phasing out their A340s soon, which are used on their CDG-BOG route, what equipment do they plan to use once the A340 is gone?
Can a fully loaded A332 make it to CDG from BOG or would they go one-stop like KL? What are BOGs limitations with twin engine planes transatlantically? Since it seems AV uses their A330s to Europe no problem.

Thanks for your insight!

Luisvalero · Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:37 pm

Yes, AF can fly CDG-BOG in a A330-200 without problems. IB will fly extra 3Weekly frequencies to LIM in august in a A330-200, which is a longer distance. But I think the perfect plane for CDG-BOG is B787-9

Hagic · Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:40 pm

Luisvalero wrote:
Yes, AF can fly CDG-BOG in a A330-200 without problems. IB will fly extra 3Weekly frequencies to LIM in august in a A330-200, which is a longer distance. But I think the perfect plane for CDG-BOG is B787-9

It's a longer distance but LIM is at sea level.

juan885 · Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:52 pm

Why doesn't KL fly nonstop to AMS then?

Dutchy · Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:57 pm

juan885 wrote:
Why doesn't KL fly nonstop to AMS then?

just speculating here, but not enough demand?

dcajet · Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:01 pm

AV flew BOG-LHR with the A330-200 (unsure if w. any penalties) so BOG-CDG should be doable. It also depends on what gross weight version of the A332 AF operates. Avianca's are newer vintage A332.

boeing767er · Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:15 pm

KL's 772ER is limited to 240000KGS TOW from Bogota (ISA). Cali is better at 265000KGS. That is a lot of payload earned with 1 extra stop.

boeing767er · Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:18 pm

And to get back to your original question; the A332 takes a +/- 5000kgs penalty due to the elevation of the airport. Total penalty for the 772ER is tenfold.

Iemand91 · Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:49 pm

KLM doesn't fly to Cali anymore. Since March 28 they fly through Cartagena. (AMS-BOG-CTG-AMS).
They fly Bogota for business and Cartagena for leisure/tourism.
Cali wasn't going well; especially business pax was slowing down.

They also changed the 777-200ER with the 787-9.

Luisvalero · Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:53 pm

Iemand91 wrote:
KLM doesn't fly to Cali anymore. Since March 28 they fly through Cartagena. (AMS-BOG-CTG-AMS).
They fly Bogota for business and Cartagena for leisure/tourism.
Cali wasn't going well; especially business pax was slowing down.

They also changed the 777-200ER with the 787-9.

I'm wondering why both KLM and IB stoped Cali. I suppose this happened as a consequence of Avianca's daily MAD-CLO.

dcajet · Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:59 pm

Realistically, can CLO support 3 carriers to Europe? I have my doubts.

boeing767er · Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:00 pm

I stand corrected!

juan885 · Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:34 pm

So KL flies a triangular route because there's not enough demand for a BOG nonstop? or is the 789 restricted out of BOG because of the altitude?
I would think that a one-stop is not a competitive option against LH or AV

Luisvalero · Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:38 pm

juan885 wrote:
So KL flies a triangular route because there's not enough demand for a BOG nonstop? or is the 789 restricted out of BOG because of the altitude?
I would think that a one-stop is not a competitive option against LH or AV

KLM is really aggressive on it's Latin American Expansion strategy. During the last years it has just added BOG, SCL, PTY, SJO and more capacity to EZE, MEX, HAV. What's next for KLM? SDQ, MVD?? I'm sure IB is feeling deeply the pain

NichCage · Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:53 pm

An A332, A359, and even an 789 could fly between CDG and BOG without any probelms.

Sorry if this has been discussed but I am still pretty confused to why KLM does fly AMS-BOG-AMS direct. Is there not enough payload for BOG-AMS? If airlines such as AV, AF, LH and others fly to Europe direct, I see no reason to why KL cannot.

LAX772LR · Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:26 am

NichCage wrote:
An A332, A359, and even an 789 could fly between CDG and BOG without any probelms.

Sorry if this has been discussed but I am still pretty confused to why KLM does fly AMS-BOG-AMS direct. Is there not enough payload for BOG-AMS? If airlines such as AV, AF, LH and others fly to Europe direct, I see no reason to why KL cannot.

They could, they probably don't WANT to.

If they're getting decent yield on the nonstop inbound, and carrying decent tourist pax and/or cargo on the outbound, then flying a barebones outbound for the sake of a nonstop might not be worth it to them.

Same for SXM. They've had aircraft that could do the westbound as a nonstop for years, but have only just now decided to start doing so. They found it worthwhile to continue the 1stop for the duration of their time with the M11/747.

dcajet · Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:46 am

I understand KL moves a big amount of cargo ex-BOG, thus requiring the stop en route back to Europe. Specifically, this flight connects the largest flower producing market in the world to the biggest flower marketplace in the world.

Luisvalero wrote:
KLM is really aggressive on it's Latin American Expansion strategy. During the last years it has just added BOG, SCL, PTY, SJO and more capacity to EZE, MEX, HAV. What's next for KLM? SDQ, MVD?? I'm sure IB is feeling deeply the pain

I think KL is already at the markets it needs to be at, except for CCS. But that is another story altogether; it'll be years until Venezuela can regain even a semblance of its former glory. MVD is too small a market, in fact AF, just reduced its daily service via EZE to 5x w; the other two flights just finalize at EZE.

Iemand91 · Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:50 am

KLM does not fly AMS-BOG-AMS for two reasons:

- Operational issues. See above.
- They saw a market for Cali.

They combined those two reasons and decided to do a triangular route instead of a direct AMS-BOG-AMS.
They want(ed) to transport cargo (including Farmaceutical stuff to Columbia, flowers to Amsterdam) and wanted or could carry (based on calculations) about 23 tons of cargo each way.

That's at least what they told the press.

A388 · Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:21 am

Iemand91 explained it well. KL makes the extra stop back to AMS to avoid payload restrictions and head back to AMS with a full load. BOG has the issue of high altitude so twin aircraft will always have payload restrictions from BOG. SXM now gets the A332 from KL but this isn't the ideal aircraft as its too big and are having trouble filling the aircraft. The combination of SXM with CUR on their 744 was actually a better operation but KL is taking a risk with flying SXM nonstop. Demand just isn't big from AMS to SXM.

A388

dcajet · Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:31 am

A388 wrote:
Iemand91 explained it well. KL makes the extra stop back to AMS to avoid payload restrictions and head back to AMS with a full load. BOG has the issue of high altitude so twin aircraft will always have payload restrictions from BOG. SXM now gets the A332 from KL but this isn't the ideal aircraft as its too big and are having trouble filling the aircraft. The combination of SXM with CUR on their 744 was actually a better operation but KL is taking a risk with flying SXM nonstop. Demand just isn't big from AMS to SXM.

A388

On a SXM note, I heard the other day that it is not unheard of that the KL A332 needs to make a tech stop (refueling) at Pointe-à-Pitre PTP en route from SXM to AMS.

A388 · Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:48 am

DCAjet yes I've heard that too. The issue with SXM is the mountain close to the runway In case of a one engine out scenario with a twin engine aircraft. TUI regularly takes off in the other direction if the aircraft is too heavy for a one engine out scenario. Their advantage is that they continue to CUR so they can do that. In KL's case they fly back nonstop which is a problem if the aircraft is too heavy and they need to stop in PTP to refuel.

A388

RCS763AV · Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:03 am

Coming back to the thread, although the KL stopover discussion is interesting, I'm guessing AF will probably use the A359 once they're received (I understand it has more range than the 789 and more capable engines for high altitude, please correct me if untrue).

b747400erf · Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:25 am

dcajet wrote:
I understand KL moves a big amount of cargo ex-BOG, thus requiring the stop en route back to Europe. Specifically, this flight connects the largest flower producing market in the world to the biggest flower marketplace in the world.

Luisvalero wrote:
KLM is really aggressive on it's Latin American Expansion strategy. During the last years it has just added BOG, SCL, PTY, SJO and more capacity to EZE, MEX, HAV. What's next for KLM? SDQ, MVD?? I'm sure IB is feeling deeply the pain

I think KL is already at the markets it needs to be at, except for CCS. But that is another story altogether; it'll be years until Venezuela can regain even a semblance of its former glory. MVD is too small a market, in fact AF, just reduced its daily service via EZE to 5x w; the other two flights just finalize at EZE.

KLM serves BOG daily on a 747 freighter, the stop on passenger planes is not for cargo. If you are just guessing about a subject then why post like an expert?

76er · Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:37 am

b747400erf wrote:
KLM serves BOG daily on a 747 freighter

Not anymore. With the all but complete shutdown of MP's activities, full freighter movements are now down to just 3 flights a week. Perfectly in line with KL's belly first, combi second, freighter last policy.

b747400erf · Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:01 am

76er wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
KLM serves BOG daily on a 747 freighter

Not anymore. With the all but complete shutdown of MP's activities, full freighter movements are now down to just 3 flights a week. Perfectly in line with KL's belly first, combi second, freighter last policy.

Every day they have a freighter serve the region, BOG or UIO. The pax 777 adds on another route for passenger traffic not cargo.

LewisNEO · Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:28 am

Does anyone know the rate at which AF retires the A340? I still need to fly on one of those beautiful 4 holer birds.

airbuster · Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:20 am

dcajet wrote:
A388 wrote:
Iemand91 explained it well. KL makes the extra stop back to AMS to avoid payload restrictions and head back to AMS with a full load. BOG has the issue of high altitude so twin aircraft will always have payload restrictions from BOG. SXM now gets the A332 from KL but this isn't the ideal aircraft as its too big and are having trouble filling the aircraft. The combination of SXM with CUR on their 744 was actually a better operation but KL is taking a risk with flying SXM nonstop. Demand just isn't big from AMS to SXM.

A388

On a SXM note, I heard the other day that it is not unheard of that the KL A332 needs to make a tech stop (refueling) at Pointe-à-Pitre PTP en route from SXM to AMS.

Happend only once to my knowledge.

Mdutch · Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:51 am

A388 wrote:
Iemand91 explained it well. KL makes the extra stop back to AMS to avoid payload restrictions and head back to AMS with a full load. BOG has the issue of high altitude so twin aircraft will always have payload restrictions from BOG. SXM now gets the A332 from KL but this isn't the ideal aircraft as its too big and are having trouble filling the aircraft. The combination of SXM with CUR on their 744 was actually a better operation but KL is taking a risk with flying SXM nonstop. Demand just isn't big from AMS to SXM.

A388

If they are having difficulties filling the A330-200 then why are they starting a 4th weekly flight starting Oct 27?
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... f-18apr17/

Iemand91 · Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:10 pm

airbuster wrote:
dcajet wrote:
On a SXM note, I heard the other day that it is not unheard of that the KL A332 needs to make a tech stop (refueling) at Pointe-à-Pitre PTP en route from SXM to AMS.

Happend only once to my knowledge.

Yes, on December 13 KL730 diverted to Pointe-à-Pitre. (it was plagued by delays)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJh6qrNgFwc

dcajet · Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:33 pm

b747400erf wrote:
dcajet wrote:
I understand KL moves a big amount of cargo ex-BOG, thus requiring the stop en route back to Europe. Specifically, this flight connects the largest flower producing market in the world to the biggest flower marketplace in the world.

Luisvalero wrote:
KLM is really aggressive on it's Latin American Expansion strategy. During the last years it has just added BOG, SCL, PTY, SJO and more capacity to EZE, MEX, HAV. What's next for KLM? SDQ, MVD?? I'm sure IB is feeling deeply the pain

I think KL is already at the markets it needs to be at, except for CCS. But that is another story altogether; it'll be years until Venezuela can regain even a semblance of its former glory. MVD is too small a market, in fact AF, just reduced its daily service via EZE to 5x w; the other two flights just finalize at EZE.

KLM serves BOG daily on a 747 freighter, the stop on passenger planes is not for cargo. If you are just guessing about a subject then why post like an expert?

Because I knew what I was talking about. And you don't. KLM Cargo no longer serves Bogota. There are 3x w. flights on Martinair but those are winding down so if you query the AF/KL Cargo schedule, depending on the type of shipment, the 789's belly is always the first option.

Honestly, if you are going to throw names around at least take the time to get your facts straight.

juan885 · Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:50 am

LewisNEO wrote:
Does anyone know the rate at which AF retires the A340? I still need to fly on one of those beautiful 4 holer birds.

I would like to know too. Their youngest A343 is 16 years old, seems it still has some life left on it. Anyone know how close they are to needing C or D checks? As I'm sure they'll retire them before

A388 · Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:41 am

Yes KL serves BOG also for cargo reasons to add to their passenger flights profitability. An increasing amount of cargo is now being flown on the new generation passenger widebody aircraft that have better cargo hold capabilities reducing the need for full freighters. In this case KL's 787-9.

It wouldn't surprise me AF will also go for the 787-9 or the A350 to replace their A343 to BOG.

A388

clo1973 · Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:05 pm

Iemand91 wrote:
Cali wasn't going well; especially business pax was slowing down..

Cali end up putting 40% of pax in KLM operation to Colombia, I do not know the mix between business/economic, but with that number I would not say
it was not doing well.

clo1973 · Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:11 pm

I'm wondering why both KLM and IB stoped Cali. I suppose this happened as a consequence of Avianca's daily MAD-CLO.[/quote]

We discussed this in a separate forum for Cali Airport, the consensus was:

- AV increased CLO-MAD from 5x to 7x last November
- Even though, 60% of the pax on the IB route MAD-MDE-CLO-MAD were from CLO, IB saw a better shot of competing with AV in MAD, since MDE-MAD in AV is a 3x operation
- KLM saw and opportunity of switching CLO stop to CTG, obtaining some savings because in this configuration the route to AMS is shorter, and since CTG is a big tourism spot
they hope it would drag more pax (specially in business class) than CLO (in my opinion, something to be seen).

Sources also said, the Colombian government lobbied heavily on KLM to switch to CTG

clo1973 · Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:17 pm

dcajet wrote:
Realistically, can CLO support 3 carriers to Europe? I have my doubts.

The answer is yes and no.

If we are talking of 3 carriers with an stand-alone operation to Eurore, the answer is NO. As a matter of fact only major capital cities in Latin America could support that as well.

They way the airlines were operating in CLO:

AV: CLO-MAD-CLO - 5x
IB: MAD-MDE-CLO-MAD - 3x
KLM: AMS-BOG-CLO-AMS - 3x

they were doing it well......

AV loads were over 80% in average
IB loads were over 80% as well (60% of pax coming from CLO)
KLM loads in average were 75-85% with 35-40% of pax coming from CLO (which was KLMs expectative when they initiate operations in 2015).

Even after AV increased from 5x to 7x in mid november 2016, IBs loads in MAD-MDE-CLO-MAD were over 80%.

Iemand91 · Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:20 pm

clo1973 wrote:
Iemand91 wrote:
Cali wasn't going well; especially business pax was slowing down..

Cali end up putting 40% of pax in KLM operation to Colombia, I do not know the mix between business/economic, but with that number I would not say
it was not doing well.

Well, that was the reason KLM gave for the cancellation. They said volume to Cali was less then wanted/expected from the very start of the route.

Oh, and seat load doesn't say anything about profitability

Bogoto was (and still is) seen by KLM as the business destination whereas Cali ánd Cartagena is seen as the tourist destination.
So those latter two might not bring in the most money compared to Bogota.

EddieDude · Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:56 pm

A388 wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me AF will also go for the 787-9 or the A350 to replace their A343 to BOG.
A388

The 789 makes sense. When will the AF A343s be totally phased out? AF's 789s are not equipped with F-Class, right?

juan885 · Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:42 pm

EddieDude wrote:
A388 wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me AF will also go for the 787-9 or the A350 to replace their A343 to BOG.
A388

The 789 makes sense. When will the AF A343s be totally phased out? AF's 789s are not equipped with F-Class, right?

They're not. They actually have the same capacity of the A343 in J and W and only one more seat in Y.

jfk777 · Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:10 am

the issue of BOG elevation is not unique to Air France, others fly A330-200 and 787 or 777 and they do fine, so AF will use some kind of Twin engined plane, a 787-9 seems the best option. The future is twins and AF having a huge 777 fleet, among the biggest, knows that.

clo1973 · Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:05 pm

Iemand91 wrote:
clo1973 wrote:
Iemand91 wrote:
Cali wasn't going well; especially business pax was slowing down..

Cali end up putting 40% of pax in KLM operation to Colombia, I do not know the mix between business/economic, but with that number I would not say
it was not doing well.

Well, that was the reason KLM gave for the cancellation. They said volume to Cali was less then wanted/expected from the very start of the route.

Oh, and seat load doesn't say anything about profitability
Bogoto was (and still is) seen by KLM as the business destination whereas Cali ánd Cartagena is seen as the tourist destination.
So those latter two might not bring in the most money compared to Bogota.

In this press release from KLM shortly after starting up operations in Colombia, KLM clearly states that it was expecting CLO to put 40% of pax, something
that as my post say it was achieved.

http://www.aviacol.net/noticias/klm-tam ... -cali.html

My post says that, yes, loads does not necessarily means profits, my point was that for CLO putting 40% of total pax is nothing minor, considering BOG
is at least 3 times bigger and 2 other carriers operating fligths to Europe from CLO.

pipeafcr · Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:07 pm

Speak of the devil. This French newspaper wrote today about the issues of a A343m (F-GLZU) that had problems in BOG and that it has since been removed from service and its weight capacity has been downsized by 8 tons. In the article it was also stated that AF is looking to replace the A343 on the BOG route for the B789. Maybe we will see a change of equipment sooner than later.

http://www.air-journal.fr/2017-04-25-ai ... 80661.html

bogota · Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:45 pm

It seemed to have happened twice which may definitely accelerate the decision of changing the aircraft type. This is and english language link of the same story.
http://www.airlive.net/news-air-france- ... at-bogota/

usmcav8tor · Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:12 pm

I have a strong feeling they'll more than likely start to send their 787's for this route. If not then the A330.

tavong · Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:16 pm

juan885 wrote:
So KL flies a triangular route because there's not enough demand for a BOG nonstop? or is the 789 restricted out of BOG because of the altitude?
I would think that a one-stop is not a competitive option against LH or AV

In fact KL uses to fly triangular routes, they also do AMS-UIO-GYE-AMS, so is not that they can´t do AMS-BOG-AMS but is part of their strategy, i think if AMS-BOG does better we might see a change on the route.

Gus
SKBO

Iemand91 · Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:23 pm

clo1973 wrote:
Iemand91 wrote:
clo1973 wrote:

Cali end up putting 40% of pax in KLM operation to Colombia, I do not know the mix between business/economic, but with that number I would not say
it was not doing well.

Well, that was the reason KLM gave for the cancellation. They said volume to Cali was less then wanted/expected from the very start of the route.

Oh, and seat load doesn't say anything about profitability
Bogoto was (and still is) seen by KLM as the business destination whereas Cali ánd Cartagena is seen as the tourist destination.
So those latter two might not bring in the most money compared to Bogota.

In this press release from KLM shortly after starting up operations in Colombia, KLM clearly states that it was expecting CLO to put 40% of pax, something
that as my post say it was achieved.

http://www.aviacol.net/noticias/klm-tam ... -cali.html

My post says that, yes, loads does not necessarily means profits, my point was that for CLO putting 40% of total pax is nothing minor, considering BOG
is at least 3 times bigger and 2 other carriers operating fligths to Europe from CLO.

Yes, they were expecting those numbers, but in the end those numbers weren't reached -> cancel Cali.

LewisNEO · Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:44 pm

juan885 wrote:
LewisNEO wrote:
Does anyone know the rate at which AF retires the A340? I still need to fly on one of those beautiful 4 holer birds.

I would like to know too. Their youngest A343 is 16 years old, seems it still has some life left on it. Anyone know how close they are to needing C or D checks? As I'm sure they'll retire them before

Yes, but who knows the answer? What's the rate? Swiss is flying in one of its A340 into the Netherlands tomorrow to get demolished. Such a sad sad happening.

clo1973 · Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:51 pm

Iemand91 wrote:
clo1973 wrote:
Iemand91 wrote:

Yes, they were expecting those numbers, but in the end those numbers weren't reached -> cancel Cali.

Whereas you speak with your beliefs, I´m speaking with hard data and that says CLO was putting 40% of the pax for the last data I have available (Aerocivil).

Iemand91 · Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:20 pm

clo1973 wrote:
Iemand91 wrote:
clo1973 wrote:

Whereas you speak with your beliefs, I´m speaking with hard data and that says CLO was putting 40% of the pax for the last data I have available (Aerocivil).

I don't. I repeat what KLM has said about the route themselves.

But I don't care about this enough and it's late to go on and on about it and it's off-topic. So agree tot disagree.

Now lets follow that Swiss A340 coming in for Twente Airport for scrapping tomorrow-morning. I hope she will make a last turn over my house before putting her wheels on the ground, but sadly I live slightly west (60 km...) of the airport so probably not...

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