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kavok
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:18 pm

Noshow wrote:
Why not stop overbooking totally and create a standby system to market any left over empty seats at short notice for cheap instead? Take away the risk from the paying passenger.



Much more effort than it is worth. The problem is the that airlines aren't penalized enough when they do IDB. When you play the game, sometimes you lose... and that is fine... as long as you pay up when you lose.

The point is there is currently no financial advantage (beyond bad PR) to pay someone more than $1350 to VDB. $1350 is still a good amount, but not what it used to be. If that penalty was increased a few thousand, you would almost always have enough VDBs, even on holidays.

Raise the required compensation for IDB, more VDBs will magically happen, and the problem is mostly solved. It really is that simple.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:55 pm

I do not have enough status on the US3 to risk preferential booking on them. I agree with kavok, increase compensation and watch the problem go away. DL seems to have the issue solved.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2223
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:02 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
Polot wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
Airlines want to double dip - they want to have full seats AND charge for changes to reservations or not showing up for/ missing your flight.

Airlines are hardly the only ones to do this. Try cancelling most appointments (where money will be exchanged) <24 hours, or not showing up and trying to reschedule, and see what happens. For all industries.

There is a reason that everyone does that- they are encouraging you to actually show up when you say you will instead of just having a free for all where you have no clue how busy or quiet it will be.


Yeah, but you're missing the point. Airlines overbook flights so when one doesn't show up another fare paying passenger is in that seat. The analogy you're giving is when one doesn't show up the business is screwed. Name another industry that overbooks appointments like the airline industry does with seats AND charges change fees like the airlines do? I can't think of one, which is why you'll get small fees from a salon, doctor's office, etc. because there's nobody waiting to take your place.


Hotels since you ask. They both overbook and don't allow cancellation of certain fares (almost all fares are non-refundable within 24 hours of arrival). I've been "walked" from one hotel to another before at least twice (which is what they call it in that biz).

Plenty of other businesses also overbook. Car Service Departments, doctor's offices, dentist offices, restaurants, etc. Not all charge fees, but I know my dentist's office does. My gf works as a nurse in a Doctor's office (with multiple doctors). They routinely overbook, and they also get emergency visits that aren't on the schedule.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
Noshow
Posts: 1664
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:21 pm

Ryanair does not overbook. If you don't use your seat it's fine with them as you have paid for it (No refund).
Wouldn't this work for legacies as well? Paid, OKayed and you go GUARANTEED?
 
slvrblt
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:19 pm

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:22 pm

deltacto wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:
Why are they hard to redeem? It's like a gift card.


Rules like
1)expiration dates
2)you can not use more than one voucher towards a ticket (if they give you 2 $200 vouchers, you must buy 2 separate tickets to use both of them)
3)you cant give the voucher to someone else


Don't know where some of you get your info; many misconceptions in this thread. But to this post:

1) True. They expire.
2) Wrong. you can use multiple vouchers on a ticket. At least, where I work, you can.
3) Wrong again. No, a random person can't just use a voucher with your name on it but yes, YOU can use the voucher for a a ticket for someone other than yourself.
..everything works out in the end.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:02 pm

manny wrote:
Overbooking is another one of those laws that benefit the industry at the expense of the consumer. Yet airlines screw customers by giving them travel vouchers which are usually hard to redeem instead of actual cash/cheque.

Its time there was something done to dial back this and customers compensated more fairly.
Any IDB in the US is entitled to cash.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
flyfresno
Posts: 1058
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:46 pm

While there are rules governing compensation for involuntary denied boarding, I'm pretty sure airlines have free reign to offer whatever they want to voluntarily get off the plane (some airlines even offer retail gift cards...something I bet they are getting a good deal on from the retailers). That said, it would likely be much better for all parties involved if airlines just kept upping their voluntary compensation until they got enough takers and the flight could go. Maybe even have an e-bidding system...if the flight is overbooked at checkin, passengers are allowed to put in a number they could be "bought off" for and then the airline selects from the lowest bidder. Irregardless of what anyone believes about the rules of involuntary denied boarding, bumping pax for an overbooked flight and nothing else (such as security or intoxication) seems like it has too high of a risk of turning into a PR nightmare. Everyone has their price...and the profits from overbooking plus the savings from not having to do damage control mean just raising what they offer seems like the most equitable solution for all parties.
 
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compensateme
Posts: 3279
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Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:07 pm

This thread is misleading. Overbooking has become LESS of an issue that it was in years' past; 2016 saw the second fewest passengers either voluntarily or involuntarily denied boarding since 1990:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/186 ... ince-1990/

- - -

When passengers are denied boarding, it's never a pleasant experience -- not in 1990, not in 2017. In my travels, I have witnessed oodles of heated debates -- everything from anxious passengers after the gate agent announced boarding wouldn't begin until they found volunteers to people being removed from the aircraft.

The ONLY differences between now & 2017 is that (1) we have the means to capture these instantly capture & share video of these eventsd and (2) the public favors soft tabloid news over the hard stuff. But alas, it's less of an issue today than it's ever been.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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Polot
Posts: 10704
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Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:17 pm

slvrblt wrote:
deltacto wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:
Why are they hard to redeem? It's like a gift card.


Rules like
1)expiration dates
2)you can not use more than one voucher towards a ticket (if they give you 2 $200 vouchers, you must buy 2 separate tickets to use both of them)
3)you cant give the voucher to someone else


Don't know where some of you get your info; many misconceptions in this thread. But to this post:

1) True. They expire.
2) Wrong. you can use multiple vouchers on a ticket. At least, where I work, you can.
3) Wrong again. No, a random person can't just use a voucher with your name on it but yes, YOU can use the voucher for a a ticket for someone other than yourself.

Honestly the biggest problem is some airlines make them a pain in the ass to redeem. I've gotten vouchers from AA that require me to call the airline to redeem, you can't do it online via their website. Which is stupid and entirely done to make the process more inconvenient in hopes that you won't actually use the voucher.
 
manny
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:49 pm

DFWEagle wrote:
Overbooking in itself is not the problem and there are advantages to it.



There are no advantages for passengers because of overbooking. Unless you consider all the anxiety caused to passengers because of overbooking.

Its another industry centric law that came into because of lobbying.
 
ILUVDC10S
Posts: 259
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:51 pm

Polot wrote:
slvrblt wrote:
deltacto wrote:

Rules like
1)expiration dates
2)you can not use more than one voucher towards a ticket (if they give you 2 $200 vouchers, you must buy 2 separate tickets to use both of them)
3)you cant give the voucher to someone else


Don't know where some of you get your info; many misconceptions in this thread. But to this post:

1) True. They expire.
2) Wrong. you can use multiple vouchers on a ticket. At least, where I work, you can.
3) Wrong again. No, a random person can't just use a voucher with your name on it but yes, YOU can use the voucher for a a ticket for someone other than yourself.

Honestly the biggest problem is some airlines make them a pain in the ass to redeem. I've gotten vouchers from AA that require me to call the airline to redeem, you can't do it online via their website. Which is stupid and entirely done to make the process more inconvenient in hopes that you won't actually use the voucher.

Yep, and they charge you for making the reservation over the phone too . So there goes part of that voucher to pay AA for what paying a reservations agent that they are paying to sit in that chair and talk to you I call that double dipping in my opinion.
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2891
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:21 pm

OSUk1d wrote:
Planesmart wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:

The part I was replying to is not actually quoted, however he was not saying IDB should get 10x, he was saying anyone who volunteers a seat in an oversold situation should start at 10x their ticket cost and a confirmed seat. That is ridiculous.

No more ridiculous than making a purchase, handing over your dollars, only to be told on arrival (assuming not late), that what you purchased, doesn't really exist.

You keep the offer simple. If overbooked by four, you choose the last four to check in. They get the 10x offer. If not accepted, you ask the next four, until you have four volunteers. Simple and predictable. I suppose there will be those in the know, that try to be the last to check in, but you soon ID them, and scale the overbooking on flights which they book.

You can dress it up anyway you like, but overselling in the airline industry has become 'acceptable' practice. In most other industries, selling something you don't have, would constitute fraud. The practice is needed for many of the reasons described. But, there must be published, enforceable, industry-wide cash payment rules, and disclosure of the number of passengers overbooked by each airline and route.

If over booking exceeds an agreed industry percentage on a route by route basis, there should be further federal financial penalties.

Hopefully airline software becomes smarter, and/or they schedule more or bigger aircraft, and/or they add extra flights.



What you don't seem to be getting is that the software has become smarter and IDB is very rare. I don't know how much you think flights are overbooked by but adding extra flights because a flight is overbooked by a handful of people when there are usually other ways to get them there makes no sense.
You also don't seem to get that in a time sensitive industry going through passengers in a certain order until you find someone is not practical. Plus, there are people who chase compensation and now you're encouraging people to try and be the last ones to check in.
And the main problem with your idea is that there are people who will regularly take much less than you are saying airlines should be forced to give. So why should they be forced to give $1000 on a $100 ticket when many people will take $400 and the next flight?

Either IDB is very rare, and paying more compensation to affected passengers will likewise be very small, or, it is a bigger issue than claimed, so paying more compensation will hurt. If the latter, airlines will make their software even smarter.

If aviation is a time sensitive industry, why have IDB's at all? And if so rare, why does the way volunteers are identified make a difference?

I was just making a few suggestions. To stop people trying to be last to check in to collect compensation (why would they bother if the problem is really so rare?), then take the first to check in, or those that booked last, or paid the lowest fare, or........................... Just publish a policy.

Just because something is common practice, doesn't make it ethically right or not fraudulent.
 
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Polot
Posts: 10704
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:34 pm

Planesmart wrote:
If aviation is a time sensitive industry, why have IDB's at all? And if so rare, why does the way volunteers are identified make a difference?

Because there is a difference between IDB and volunteers claiming compensation. One is involuntary, the other, as the name implies, is completely voluntary. You can't regulate what an airline can offer for volunteers. How sweet the airline makes their offer for volunteers just effects how likely they are to get volunteers and thus how likely they are to avoid having IDB (which ARE regulated in regards to compensation that must be offered to the person denied boarding).
Planesmart wrote:
I was just making a few suggestions. To stop people trying to be last to check in to collect compensation (why would they bother if the problem is really so rare?), then take the first to check in, or those that booked last, or paid the lowest fare, or........................... Just publish a policy.

Your suggestion would do the opposite. If someone is purposely trying to get compensation you just gave them an incentive to be the very last person to check in, or the first ones to check in, or book at the very last minute, or chase the absolutely lowest fare....all they have to do is just follow and game the published policy.

Also it is involuntary denied boardings that are rare and not a major issue. Overbooking is not rare but also not usually a major issue, because airlines typically have no problem finding enough volunteers with the current systems. You (and the OP) seem to be treating the two as one and the same. The whole premise of the thread is flawed, because overbooking of flights has not become a major issue at all. Think about how many flights you have taken that have been oversold and experienced calls for people giving up seats. Now think about how many times you have been involuntarily denied boarding.
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2891
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:38 pm

Polot wrote:
Also it is involuntary denied boardings that are rare and not a major issue. Overbooking is not rare but also not usually a major issue, because airlines typically have no problem finding enough volunteers with the current systems. You (and the OP) seem to be treating the two as one and the same. The whole premise of the thread is flawed, because overbooking of flights has not become a major issue at all.

Again, if IDB's are very rare, compensate the affected passengers very generously.
 
kavok
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:46 pm

slvrblt wrote:
deltacto wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:
Why are they hard to redeem? It's like a gift card.


Rules like
1)expiration dates
2)you can not use more than one voucher towards a ticket (if they give you 2 $200 vouchers, you must buy 2 separate tickets to use both of them)
3)you cant give the voucher to someone else


Don't know where some of you get your info; many misconceptions in this thread. But to this post:

1) True. They expire.
2) Wrong. Of course you can use multiple vouchers on a ticket. At least, where I work, you can. And, you'll get a residual amount back, if there is some left.
3) Wrong again. No, a random person can't just use a voucher with your name on it but yes, YOU can use the voucher for a a ticket for someone other than yourself.


Are we talking about VDB or IDB?

If it is a VDB situation, and the volunteer accepted a gift card (with expiration date) in exchange for giving up their seat, then that is the pax's problem. They chose that option, and it is the pax's fault if they can't use said gift card.

If it is a IDB, then it is different. But IDBs shouldn't hardly ever have to happen anyway. Just make the VDB offers generous enough, and there won't be any IDBs.
 
kavok
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:52 pm

Planesmart wrote:
Polot wrote:
Also it is involuntary denied boardings that are rare and not a major issue. Overbooking is not rare but also not usually a major issue, because airlines typically have no problem finding enough volunteers with the current systems. You (and the OP) seem to be treating the two as one and the same. The whole premise of the thread is flawed, because overbooking of flights has not become a major issue at all.

Again, if IDB's are very rare, compensate the affected passengers very generously.


Exactly. And I am sorry, in 2017, $1350 (or less) is not a generous compensation. The IDB situation is the result of the airline playing the game, and losing. When you lose, you should have to pay up generously.

Bump the regulated required IDB compensation to $7k or $8k, and you can bet the airlines will give out a lot more VDB offers in the $1600 range if absolutely necessary... and magically more VDBs will happen and the IDBs go away. I can't understand why this is such a hard concept for people to understand.
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1868
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:11 pm

alfa164 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
guyanam wrote:
Bad excuse. Airlines charge hefty change fees and we are forced to pay them, or not travel. Making airlines look like the victim here is a true joke. In order to get a full refund, it either has to be a refundable fare (these aren't cheap) or a major medical emergency.
I maintain that airlines disrespect their passengers and treat their front line staff even worse as it is this group, and not the little bureaucrat hiding in his office, who face passenger wrath and the stress which ensues.

THIS!
I was wondering how long before someone would post this. Airlines want to double dip - they want to have full seats AND charge for changes to reservations or not showing up for/ missing your flight. Airlines are making BILLIONS in revenue. It would not hurt them if 1 or 2 seats went out open. They're still collecting $200+ from those 1 or 2 seats, which sometimes is even more than the ticket itself, so the airlines get to keep all the money the passenger is practically forfeiting. Give me a break and cry me a river!


What would you do about those flights which are overbooked by "phantom" reservations? I have been on many a flight to South America that was overbooked by 20-30 passengers, only to find there were empty seats available at the time the flight took off. Why? It seems travel agents will make bookings and hold them for passengers who can't make up their mind which day the want to travel; they hold seats on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday... multiple days... until the passenger decides when to go.

I suspect this may happen to flights in other parts of the world, too, but it is definitely happening there. I suppose you think the airline should "take the hit" for empty, unsold seats... but, in fact, every passenger will "take the hit", because fares will rise to match the revenue needed for the flight.

Well-calculated overbooking is a necessary evil for both the airline and the flying public. Unfortunately, the few times the situation gets out of hand at the gate gets all the attention.


Oh please! What you are talking about is so last century. The auto cancel features in GDS makes it extremely difficult for travel agents to do what you are talking about. If they are doing it and getting away with it - then the airline needs to get its act together. There are so many ways for an airline to curtail such churning behavior now..
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:45 pm

There is one more point regarding overbooking. The airline has a direct flight from A to B. Two month before the date of the flight, that is rather empty, the airline offers cheap flights, by selling them the airline has a guarantied revenue on this sold seat. The date of the flight is drawing near, the airline sells the cheap seats again for a higher price. The original buyer of this seat is rebooked on a connecting flight A to C to B and the airline increases its profit. The explanation to the rebooked passenger is overbooking.
 
glfblz59
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:47 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:56 pm


Well, I worked the gates and ticket counter for AA at ORD for almost 10 years.
Overbooking has been, and, will be a part of the industry. Back in my
day; '68 - '75, there were the "bad" flights that were always OB.
Flt. 600, 8pm, ORD-ALB was ALWAYS OB. Next flt., was 0850 the
next a.m. Although, AA did change to a "stretch" 727, from a 100,
it was still OB at least 4 nights a week. I hated working it.
And, back in that day, there was NO volunteer to give up your seat.
After we boarded, anyone else did not get on. Worst night was 16 pax
left at the gate...........Not a good thing.
 
OSUk1d
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:43 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:29 pm

ITB wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:
ITB wrote:
No, it's not a ridiculous post. Already there have been calls for government intervention in the U.S. via rule making changes and potential legislation. This has become a very serious matter. It behooves the airlines to tread carefully and have all their cards in order. While it may seem a minor matter to some, there might be hearings scheduled on Capitol Hill. When Senators and Representatives begin to bark, the airline companies tend to listen, as they wisely should.


No, it really is ridiculous. There are calls for all kinds of things, doesn't make them legitimate issues.


Well, you can say that. But when Doug Parker, Ed Bastian and Oscar Munoz, among others, are summoned to Capitol Hill to face a panel of unhappy Congressmen and women, I can assure you they won't consider it a laughing matter.



And it shows you how illegitimate Congress is. As many real issues as there are, if they would waste their time on this, that's on them.
 
OSUk1d
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:43 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:35 pm

ILUVDC10S wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:
ILUVDC10S wrote:

Not getting defensive just having a discussion. I have been on many NWA flights Post 9-11 and we had to return to gate after MSP audited the bag and passenger list and noticed it did not match so it was back to the gate to off load a passengers bags that got loaded in error. so I know of at least NWA following the Post 9-11 rules on domestic flights and shoot even pre 9-11 we were in NRT and had to go to remote stand to offload about 10 bags from down below So some airlines follow the LETTER and SPIRIT of the rules others do not sorry. Strange that TSA/FAA admin have both stated that airlines are to bag match on ALL flights Domestic or International or face fines and other remedies. I know you were not attacking me you are okay and yes as long as we continue as we are we are going to have a blast. I dont personally know where you work however based on your handle I would say Mesa ? however I do not want to assume a thing.
And got ya on the times we are on the same page paragraph and sentence now .


Those still aren't the rules. It is not about some airlines not following the rules. There is no rule that passengers who aren't on the flight have their bags pulled on a domestic flight.
But after just reading that "story" about "UScareways," your posts make sense to me. At least as far as where they're coming from and I can take anything you say with a grain of salt.


Not from what I saw :
What about PPBM?
Positive Passenger Bag Match Procedure is in place in all US Airlines & Airports in response to the 9-11 attacks despite of the costs incurred it is the rules handed down by the Department of Homeland Security and is strictly enforced on each flight and is mandatory on International flights out and inbound also. even is adequate screening is done PPBM rules still apply . There is no exceptions to this rule as set forth by the Department of Homeland Security failure to follow said rules enforcement action can and will take place . PER DHS



You said international in your post. That is the only time this rule exists.
 
OSUk1d
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:43 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:38 pm

Noshow wrote:
Why not stop overbooking totally and create a standby system to market any left over empty seats at short notice for cheap instead? Take away the risk from the paying passenger.


Because people are cheap and want everything for free. You'd have 100 people trying this for every 3 open seats.
 
ILUVDC10S
Posts: 259
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:42 pm

OSUk1d wrote:
ITB wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:

No, it really is ridiculous. There are calls for all kinds of things, doesn't make them legitimate issues.


Well, you can say that. But when Doug Parker, Ed Bastian and Oscar Munoz, among others, are summoned to Capitol Hill to face a panel of unhappy Congressmen and women, I can assure you they won't consider it a laughing matter.



And it shows you how illegitimate Congress is. As many real issues as there are, if they would waste their time on this, that's on them.


I beg to differ Michigans very own John Conyers raised the red flags on the NW/DL Merger plans after Anderson & Steenland bold faced lied to the congressman about what was going to happen. I wished Conyers Blocked the merger Oh how I wished he did ! All be it hes on the opposite side of the aisle of me. here is the video again for your viewing pleasure : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd1Dm3-IF_w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lT3mQ87f0M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB5YCaNTbwM
:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvSzgB5Vh9Q
Gotta love the archives of Youtube and C SPAN
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5097
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:43 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Overbooking worked well before I did it many times but I was always offered a flight in a timely manner within an hour or two of my original flight not having to wait 6 to 10 hours for my next flight option.


Ah, you must have been connecting through ATL. Most routes don't have hourly service, and many only have 1-3 flights a day.

MesaFlyGuy wrote:
1.I get to the gate 1 hour prior to departure, start making announcements looking for potential volunteers, and page up the passengers in jeopardy of being removed and inform them of the situation, assuring them that I am trying my hardest to find out about volunteers.


In the UA/Dr Dao case, there have been allegations of racism in selecting him for deboarding. I'm still not clear - how do you know who needs to be removed?

StarAC17 wrote:


1. I worked for a business that wasn't an airline but operated similarly. We not only charged a 50% reschedule fee for no-shows but we also resold those seats if someone else wanted to go. As far as I'm concerned, if we tell you a no-show is a 50% reschedule, and you no-show, you pay the 50% reschedule. It shouldn't be dependent on whether or not we are able to sell those seats to someone else, which sometimes happened and sometimes didn't. For that matter, sometimes the no-shows were on a sold out trip and sometimes they were on a trip with a 20% load factor. That's irrelevant. You can't run a business where every single situation has to be judged based on multiple changing factors. With an airline, if I buy a non-refundable ticket and there is a change fee, does the change fee change because:

1. The seats went out empty and other seats were empty as well?
2. The seats went empty on an otherwise sold out flight?
3. The seats were resold to somebody else?

Again, as far as I'm concerned, your contract with the airline is simply that - between you and the airline. What they do separate from you is irrelevant to your situation.

Planesmart wrote:
zeke wrote:
I think airlines (insert hotel, car hire etc) would be happy to not overbook as long as passengers didn't want their money or booking moved to another flight if they don't show for their original flight.

In reality passengers want refunds or to be moved different flights and make the unused inventory the airlines cost.

I always enjoy your informed posts Zeke, but on this subject, airline management takes the moral high ground - a heads we win customers, tails you lose.


I often as not seem to have a different point of view with Zeke on things, but his post above is spot on.

PatrickZ80 wrote:
I think the problem is that some airlines sell full-refundable tickets. This only encourages no-shows on which the airline doesn't make any money. I think there should always be some kind of penalty on applying for a refund, let's say a maximum 70 percent refund. That way you discourage people to apply for a refund instead of just flying the booked flight.


When I buy a non-refundable ticket, I am trading flexibility and more money for risk and less money. When someone buys a fully-refundable ticket, they are choosing to spend more money than I am willing to knowing that they need the full flexibility for their personal situation. I have no data, but I'm assuming that the folks that do this usually show up and fly their itineraries, but for the airline the higher fare regularly paid by these folks offsets the costs associated with the occasional reschedule they may make.

Fully-refundable ticket holders are not getting away with something anymore than non-refundable ticket holders are. Each is paying for the risks, amenities, and flexibility that they require.


Actually I did connect through ATL and I was pretty much left to fend for myself. Came in late from VPS was in the terminal 30 minutes before my flight was due to depart ran across the terminal only to be told my seats were given away and the flight was closed while my plane was still there at the gate. The pilot of the aircraft was willing to take us but the gate agent said no the flight had been closed. So at that point I was told just to show up at the gate every time the next flight to my destination was ready to depart and those flights were also all oversold so I wound up flying to a different destination close to my own just so I could get home in a reasonable time frame no CSA was of any help had to give them all ideas on how to get me home so basically did their job for them others I would have been stuck ATL is an awful hub.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
OSUk1d
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:43 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:43 pm

Planesmart wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:
Planesmart wrote:
No more ridiculous than making a purchase, handing over your dollars, only to be told on arrival (assuming not late), that what you purchased, doesn't really exist.

You keep the offer simple. If overbooked by four, you choose the last four to check in. They get the 10x offer. If not accepted, you ask the next four, until you have four volunteers. Simple and predictable. I suppose there will be those in the know, that try to be the last to check in, but you soon ID them, and scale the overbooking on flights which they book.

You can dress it up anyway you like, but overselling in the airline industry has become 'acceptable' practice. In most other industries, selling something you don't have, would constitute fraud. The practice is needed for many of the reasons described. But, there must be published, enforceable, industry-wide cash payment rules, and disclosure of the number of passengers overbooked by each airline and route.

If over booking exceeds an agreed industry percentage on a route by route basis, there should be further federal financial penalties.

Hopefully airline software becomes smarter, and/or they schedule more or bigger aircraft, and/or they add extra flights.



What you don't seem to be getting is that the software has become smarter and IDB is very rare. I don't know how much you think flights are overbooked by but adding extra flights because a flight is overbooked by a handful of people when there are usually other ways to get them there makes no sense.
You also don't seem to get that in a time sensitive industry going through passengers in a certain order until you find someone is not practical. Plus, there are people who chase compensation and now you're encouraging people to try and be the last ones to check in.
And the main problem with your idea is that there are people who will regularly take much less than you are saying airlines should be forced to give. So why should they be forced to give $1000 on a $100 ticket when many people will take $400 and the next flight?

Either IDB is very rare, and paying more compensation to affected passengers will likewise be very small, or, it is a bigger issue than claimed, so paying more compensation will hurt. If the latter, airlines will make their software even smarter.

If aviation is a time sensitive industry, why have IDB's at all? And if so rare, why does the way volunteers are identified make a difference?

I was just making a few suggestions. To stop people trying to be last to check in to collect compensation (why would they bother if the problem is really so rare?), then take the first to check in, or those that booked last, or paid the lowest fare, or........................... Just publish a policy.

Just because something is common practice, doesn't make it ethically right or not fraudulent.



I said IDB is very rare. People volunteer on overbooked flights all the time. Two completely different situations. To use your suggestion to find volunteers would be impractical and odd.
 
OSUk1d
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:43 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:48 pm

ILUVDC10S wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:
ITB wrote:

Well, you can say that. But when Doug Parker, Ed Bastian and Oscar Munoz, among others, are summoned to Capitol Hill to face a panel of unhappy Congressmen and women, I can assure you they won't consider it a laughing matter.



And it shows you how illegitimate Congress is. As many real issues as there are, if they would waste their time on this, that's on them.


I beg to differ Michigans very own John Conyers raised the red flags on the NW/DL Merger plans after Anderson & Steenland bold faced lied to the congressman about what was going to happen. I wished Conyers Blocked the merger Oh how I wished he did ! All be it hes on the opposite side of the aisle of me. here is the video again for your viewing pleasure : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd1Dm3-IF_w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lT3mQ87f0M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB5YCaNTbwM
:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvSzgB5Vh9Q
Gotta love the archives of Youtube and C SPAN


I don't know what a merger and overbooking have to do with each other, but now that you've said Michigan and Republican I suddenly understand why I can't follow a lot of what you write.
 
coairman
Posts: 167
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:31 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:17 am

Why overbookings most of the time are a non-issue:

1) in a hub, there are sometimes mis-connections.....missed connections due to ATC, weather or mechanical. Sometimes lots of them during irregular operations.

2) Local passengers who checked in online or at the ticket counter are running late.

3) Passengers who are confused at the airport who are at the wrong gate, or distracted with surfing the internet, talking on the phone, smoking, language barriers or drinking too much at the bar.

4) Usually a flight will get volunteers to take alternate flights.
The views I express are of my own, and not the company I work for.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:33 am

coairman wrote:
Why overbookings most of the time are a non-issue:

1) in a hub, there are sometimes mis-connections.....missed connections due to ATC, weather or mechanical. Sometimes lots of them during irregular operations.

2) Local passengers who checked in online or at the ticket counter are running late.

3) Passengers who are confused at the airport who are at the wrong gate, or distracted with surfing the internet, talking on the phone, smoking, language barriers or drinking too much at the bar.

4) Usually a flight will get volunteers to take alternate flights.


Honestly, I sometimes wish gate agents would get on the microphone and yell "SHUT UP! SHUT UP! SHUT UP! NOW LISTEN - THIS IS HOW IT'S GOING TO GO DOWN!" So many people cannot shut up for two seconds in a crowded gate area so the rest of us can hear what is being said. Honestly, I often have no idea what the gate agent is saying, let alone the pilot.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:18 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
coairman wrote:
Why overbookings most of the time are a non-issue:

1) in a hub, there are sometimes mis-connections.....missed connections due to ATC, weather or mechanical. Sometimes lots of them during irregular operations.

2) Local passengers who checked in online or at the ticket counter are running late.

3) Passengers who are confused at the airport who are at the wrong gate, or distracted with surfing the internet, talking on the phone, smoking, language barriers or drinking too much at the bar.

4) Usually a flight will get volunteers to take alternate flights.


Honestly, I sometimes wish gate agents would get on the microphone and yell "SHUT UP! SHUT UP! SHUT UP! NOW LISTEN - THIS IS HOW IT'S GOING TO GO DOWN!" So many people cannot shut up for two seconds in a crowded gate area so the rest of us can hear what is being said. Honestly, I often have no idea what the gate agent is saying, let alone the pilot.


One of my most annoying experience with ground staff I had in LHR. I was 8 hours delayed coming in, having of course missed all connections. The crew on the airplane hd found a connection for me, and vocal and written instructions what I should do. I was let out of the airplane and started to run. Than I encountered the ground staff. She would not take the written down information and when I tried to to tell her what I was told it went, "I do not listen to you, just do as I tell you". I tried to follow her instructions as arguing would just have cost time and of course I missed that flight too. Coming back to that same service desk later, she vanished somewhere in the back and the supervisor explained to me that how should she have known that something had been arranged for me. Me opinion was than and still is, by listening to a customer.

I think some ground staff would be good drill instructors rather being a customer service representatives.
 
Freshside3
Posts: 1591
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:28 pm

deltacto wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:
Why are they hard to redeem? It's like a gift card.


Rules like
1)expiration dates
2)you can not use more than one voucher towards a ticket (if they give you 2 $200 vouchers, you must buy 2 separate tickets to use both of them)
3)you cant give the voucher to someone else


#3 is only half-true......you can actually purchase a ticket for someone else. But YOU have to book it, you just can't hand the voucher over to somebody.

However......Let's not forget that the vouchers are only good towards purchases of NEW TICKETS........they are not good for service change fees, purchasing upgrades, club membership, or excess baggage.
 
putthoff
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:05 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:47 pm

What I would like to know is how much revenue the airlines make from those who don't show up for their flights? Put another way, if consumers actually showed up 10% more often, it would seem the airlines would lose money.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5097
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:49 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
coairman wrote:
Why overbookings most of the time are a non-issue:

1) in a hub, there are sometimes mis-connections.....missed connections due to ATC, weather or mechanical. Sometimes lots of them during irregular operations.

2) Local passengers who checked in online or at the ticket counter are running late.

3) Passengers who are confused at the airport who are at the wrong gate, or distracted with surfing the internet, talking on the phone, smoking, language barriers or drinking too much at the bar.

4) Usually a flight will get volunteers to take alternate flights.


Honestly, I sometimes wish gate agents would get on the microphone and yell "SHUT UP! SHUT UP! SHUT UP! NOW LISTEN - THIS IS HOW IT'S GOING TO GO DOWN!" So many people cannot shut up for two seconds in a crowded gate area so the rest of us can hear what is being said. Honestly, I often have no idea what the gate agent is saying, let alone the pilot.


One of my most annoying experience with ground staff I had in LHR. I was 8 hours delayed coming in, having of course missed all connections. The crew on the airplane hd found a connection for me, and vocal and written instructions what I should do. I was let out of the airplane and started to run. Than I encountered the ground staff. She would not take the written down information and when I tried to to tell her what I was told it went, "I do not listen to you, just do as I tell you". I tried to follow her instructions as arguing would just have cost time and of course I missed that flight too. Coming back to that same service desk later, she vanished somewhere in the back and the supervisor explained to me that how should she have known that something had been arranged for me. Me opinion was than and still is, by listening to a customer.

I think some ground staff would be good drill instructors rather being a customer service representatives.



And that is the exact problem I have every time I transit in Atlanta their training is awful and you can't tell them anything hey just because you work for the company doesn't mean you know everything I remember once having to give the girl working at the check in counter my destination airport code because she didn't know what it was.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
mcg
Posts: 1095
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:00 pm

manny wrote:
DFWEagle wrote:
Overbooking in itself is not the problem and there are advantages to it.



There are no advantages for passengers because of overbooking. Unless you consider all the anxiety caused to passengers because of overbooking.

Its another industry centric law that came into because of lobbying.


Sorry this is incorrect. The primary advantage to passengers from overbooking is more passengers get to fly on the flights they want to fly on. If the flight wasn't overbooked, the passengers who get the last few bookings wouldn't be able to fly. The secondary advantage is that some folks like to volunteer and they are paid (sometimes a lot of money) to do so.
 
fly4ever78
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:17 pm

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:07 pm

It has only become a "major issue" because of all the typical knee jerk over-reaction from the media and other groups. If you want to stop airlines from overbooking that's fine. But get ready to buy a whole new ticket when you "miss" your flight for anything other than a misconnection. You can't have it both ways.
 
ckfred
Posts: 5188
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:18 pm

Pretty much the entire travel industry (airlines, hotels, rental cars) overbook, or there are changes to inventory that affect reservations.

On my honeymoon, I had booked a convertible. When we walked up to the National counter, we learned that National no longer had convertibles in their inventory at SAT. Because of a number of vandalism incidents, they had removed the convertible class. But, Reservations hadn't bother to contact me to either change the reservation or cancel it. None of the other companies had any convertibles. Other than the lower rate for a Mustang hardtop, National didn't offer any compensation.

A few years later, my wife and I booked a suite at the Westin Calgary. Even though I put an arrival time of 10pm on the reservation, because of a 8pm scheduled arrival at YYC, all the suites had be taken, meaning we got downgraded to a room. As compensation, we got free breakfast every morning, along with a discounted price for the room.
 
ckfred
Posts: 5188
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:26 pm

manny wrote:
DFWEagle wrote:
Overbooking in itself is not the problem and there are advantages to it.



There are no advantages for passengers because of overbooking. Unless you consider all the anxiety caused to passengers because of overbooking.

Its another industry centric law that came into because of lobbying.


Manny, the big advantage is being able to take trips with free or nearly-free plane tickets. I've lost count of the number of times I've volunteered me seat and gotten vouchers. With the vouchers, we got almost free plane tickets for our honeymoon. We've flown to YHZ, PHX, and LAS for vacations. We got to go to a wedding in Houston, because we volunteered our seats on DFW-ORD. Because we volunteered our seats on BOS-ORD, when AA's pilots claim they weren't staging a sick-out, we flew ORD-MCO for virtually nothing, using the savings on a better cabin on a cruise out of Port Canaveral.

I will agree that airlines ought to figure out how to allow people to use vouchers while booking on-line, rather than having to confirm a reservation with a phone call and mailing the vouchers to the carrier. But, vouchers are like cash. Using a voucher is much, much easier than trying to cash in miles for free seats.
 
flytimbo77
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:13 pm

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:41 pm

Sorry if someone's said this before, but couldn't they get round this by obtaining a disclaimer at the booking stage (if they don't already) - something along the lines of "although every effort will be made to offer the booked seat, it may in some cases be necessary to transfer your booking to an alternative flight. If this becomes necessary, remuneration will be offered to cover costs bla bla bla...."

Perhaps they should also have available a certain number of 'stubborn' seats which are guaranteed and not subject to overbooking, and perhaps for which a surcharge is payable. In other words you pay a bit extra if you're not flexible and absolutely have to be on that flight, but if you tick to say you will accept an alternative flight if necessary, you could save on your flight cost. Once all the 'stubborn' seats are gone, you can still book one of the flexible seats but you're accepting that you may get bumped.

Don't airlines already do the above? I can't see why this wouldn't resolve the majority of problems. It doesn't help UA of course.
 
plinth857
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:37 pm

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:37 pm

mcg wrote:
manny wrote:
DFWEagle wrote:
Overbooking in itself is not the problem and there are advantages to it.



There are no advantages for passengers because of overbooking. Unless you consider all the anxiety caused to passengers because of overbooking.

Its another industry centric law that came into because of lobbying.


Sorry this is incorrect. The primary advantage to passengers from overbooking is more passengers get to fly on the flights they want to fly on. If the flight wasn't overbooked, the passengers who get the last few bookings wouldn't be able to fly. The secondary advantage is that some folks like to volunteer and they are paid (sometimes a lot of money) to do so.


Agreed. Just volunteered on Sunday night for $500 and it couldn't have come at a better time. In fact, the voucher is already spent on tickets for myself AND my family.
 
avek00
Posts: 3253
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:46 pm

solomanflyer wrote:
IATA has said that, overbooking of flights is normal for airlines and they can continue overbooking of flights it seems.

But when considering about passengers, it is not that fair for them to go, catch there flight and getting disappointed due overbooking..

Respective authorities should focus there concentration on this point..


Overbooking of flights is basically a rarer occurrence than it's ever been. While discussion of compensation amounts is appropriate, there's no fire here.
Live life to the fullest.
 
User avatar
TVNWZ
Posts: 2269
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:06 pm

klm617 wrote:

And that is the exact problem I have every time I transit in Atlanta their training is awful and you can't tell them anything hey just because you work for the company doesn't mean you know everything I remember once having to give the girl working at the check in counter my destination airport code because she didn't know what it was.


I go through ATL once or twice a week on average and I rarely experience this. I will run into a new agent that may not be quite up to snuff, but for the most part, I have no issues with the staff there or at any airport I transit..

What I do see are demanding, impatient, rude and calculating passengers who think they are the only ones inconvenienced by weather or other issues. The rudeness of America is on display daily at America's airports and in the air. And it is mostly we passengers--not the workers.
 
mcg
Posts: 1095
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:08 pm

flytimbo77 wrote:
Sorry if someone's said this before, but couldn't they get round this by obtaining a disclaimer at the booking stage (if they don't already) - something along the lines of "although every effort will be made to offer the booked seat, it may in some cases be necessary to transfer your booking to an alternative flight. If this becomes necessary, remuneration will be offered to cover costs bla bla bla...."

Perhaps they should also have available a certain number of 'stubborn' seats which are guaranteed and not subject to overbooking, and perhaps for which a surcharge is payable. In other words you pay a bit extra if you're not flexible and absolutely have to be on that flight, but if you tick to say you will accept an alternative flight if necessary, you could save on your flight cost. Once all the 'stubborn' seats are gone, you can still book one of the flexible seats but you're accepting that you may get bumped.

Don't airlines already do the above? I can't see why this wouldn't resolve the majority of problems. It doesn't help UA of course.


In my experience any change to a booked itinerary is subject to customer approval. If you don't like the revised itinerary, you can cancel your reservation at no charge, full refund. This applies to changes made prior to travel date, not changes due to irregular operations (weather, mechanical ect....)
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:20 pm

avek00 wrote:
solomanflyer wrote:
IATA has said that, overbooking of flights is normal for airlines and they can continue overbooking of flights it seems.

But when considering about passengers, it is not that fair for them to go, catch there flight and getting disappointed due overbooking..

Respective authorities should focus there concentration on this point..


Overbooking of flights is basically a rarer occurrence than it's ever been. While discussion of compensation amounts is appropriate, there's no fire here.


No doubt. I keep waiting to get bumped - no dice. I rarely even hear them asking for volunteers. I think I heard it more in the 80's and 90's, and even then it wasn't very often.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
manny
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:12 pm

mcg wrote:
manny wrote:
DFWEagle wrote:
Overbooking in itself is not the problem and there are advantages to it.



There are no advantages for passengers because of overbooking. Unless you consider all the anxiety caused to passengers because of overbooking.

Its another industry centric law that came into because of lobbying.


Sorry this is incorrect. The primary advantage to passengers from overbooking is more passengers get to fly on the flights they want to fly on. If the flight wasn't overbooked, the passengers who get the last few bookings wouldn't be able to fly. The secondary advantage is that some folks like to volunteer and they are paid (sometimes a lot of money) to do so.


Any benefit to passenger is incidental. So lets stop making arguments that defy common sense. The overbooking law is in place because the airlines lobbied for it for their very own benefit. Period.
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2891
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

Re: Overbooking of Flights has become a major issue.

Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:36 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I do not have enough status on the US3 to risk preferential booking on them. I agree with kavok, increase compensation and watch the problem go away. DL seems to have the issue solved.

Lightsaber

They are listening. Westjet no overbooking. Southwest ceasing the practice. United reducing the practice and increasing compensation.

If compensation expectations and reality are raised, airlines will greatly reduce the practice.

Contrary to those who seem to hold entrenched anti-customer/pro-airline views, who thankfully occupy no positions of influence in the aviation industry, the world won't come to an end, or prices spiral upwards.

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