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sanjet
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:23 pm

http://www.bnn.ca/boeing-bombardier-ruling-could-be-delayed-two-months-1.791225
Boeing has requested that the U.S. Commerce Department delay its preliminary determination on its petition until Sept. 25 from July 21.
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Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:40 pm

sanjet wrote:
http://www.bnn.ca/boeing-bombardier-ruling-could-be-delayed-two-months-1.791225
Boeing has requested that the U.S. Commerce Department delay its preliminary determination on its petition until Sept. 25 from July 21.


Basically Boeing want doubt to hang over the CSeries for as long as possible.

They must expect that a logical investigation will conclude there is no case*, so want to delay that judgement as much as they can.


*Boeing's risk against being, that the judges could bend to (ill-informed) political pressure and actually give them the illogical answer and kill US imports of CSeries!
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:51 pm

Res Boeing and the 787: They did indeed promise really low prices and quick availability, and soaked up a lot of orders that otherwise would have gone to Airbus. Airbus has done the same in the past. But Boeing wins the prize for losing the most money doing it! That is water under the bridge, I think Bombardier will prevail as the 100 is significantly of lesser capability than any Boeing offering.
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BlueSky1976
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:59 pm

Meanwhile...

There's a picture on Twitter showing CS300 with Delta logo. :D
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AirbusCanada
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:08 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Canada sounds like a scorned 16-year-old pouting and stomping its feet.

Sure they free to avoid doing business with Boeing, however at the end of the day they likely will shoot themselves in the foot being stuck with less than ideal equipment from other vendors at a price point that might be costlier.

Same applies to U.S. Govt as well. Case and point, united launch alliance.
 
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admanager
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:37 am

Update -The U.S. Commerce Department on Wednesday (June 28) granted Boeing’s request to delay its preliminary determination on the aircraft giant’s petition until Sept. 25 from July 21
http://www.canadianbusiness.com/busines ... r-cseries/
Boeing states they want to give Bombardier more time to respond to the complaint. I wonder how much time Boeing is spending in Ottawa these days discussing military purchases.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:50 am

admanager wrote:
Update -The U.S. Commerce Department on Wednesday (June 28) granted Boeing’s request to delay its preliminary determination on the aircraft giant’s petition until Sept. 25 from July 21
http://www.canadianbusiness.com/busines ... r-cseries/
Boeing states they want to give Bombardier more time to respond to the complaint. I wonder how much time Boeing is spending in Ottawa these days discussing military purchases.

None, as there are rumours floating about that Boeing has been blacklisted by the Canadian government (from earlier):

http://www.fliegerfaust.com/boeing-defe ... 62698.html
 
777Mech
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:06 am

I still would like to see Boeing fighting the subsidies the ME3 get as well, but which airlines hold a majority of their wide body backlog? They just turn a blind eye to it..
 
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Aesma
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:34 am

admanager wrote:
Update -The U.S. Commerce Department on Wednesday (June 28) granted Boeing’s request to delay its preliminary determination on the aircraft giant’s petition until Sept. 25 from July 21
http://www.canadianbusiness.com/busines ... r-cseries/
Boeing states they want to give Bombardier more time to respond to the complaint. I wonder how much time Boeing is spending in Ottawa these days discussing military purchases.


When you have a flimsy case, you don't give more time to your adversary !

ThePointblank wrote:
None, as there are rumours floating about that Boeing has been blacklisted by the Canadian government (from earlier):

http://www.fliegerfaust.com/boeing-defe ... 62698.html


I think admanager might be right, unofficial discussions must be happening.

Boeing being on the Trump bandwagon thought they could bully without consequences, and are realizing their mistake.
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F9Animal
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:40 am

I am disgusted at Boeing for this. A company that has fleeced the tax payers so many times. I personally hope the C-series is extremely successful. The antics could also piss off Delta. Let's just say the court agrees on this, would that put the Delta agreement in limbo?

Boeing has really shown how much of a bully they are. They just seem to spend more money on politics and lawsuits. Back when Airbus was awarded the tanker, Boeing threw a huge fit. While I was upset that the Air Force went with Airbus, I think Airbus really won fair and square. Boeing gets so much corporate welfare and tax breaks, it's disgusting.


I bet Delta gets their hands on this plane, and realizes it is a perfect fit. I think Northwest would have been all over this plane, especially for a replacement of the DC-9. Obviously I am a fan of Bombardier, and I really hope they come out on top. The C-Series is just a beautiful airplane. While I haven't flown on one, I will when DL gets them.
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queb
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:45 pm

An international trade specialist view:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danikenson ... ashington/

Similarly, by seeking duties on aircraft that Delta wants to purchase from Bombardier, Boeing’s actions will raise Delta’s costs in absolute terms and relative to carriers, such as Air India and Etihad, who will remain free to purchase Bombardier’s aircraft without the added duties.

Although characterized by proponents as legal tools to protect U.S. manufacturing jobs from predatory foreign firms and their enabling governments, in reality the trade remedy laws are weapons deployed primarily by U.S. companies to obtain commercial advantages over other U.S. companies. Any jobs created or saved in the process tend to accrue to the Washington law firms and lobby shops that craft the cleverest legal and political arguments, while the collateral damage to downstream industries and their workers gets swept under the rug.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:15 pm

777Mech wrote:
I still would like to see Boeing fighting the subsidies the ME3 get as well, but which airlines hold a majority of their wide body backlog? They just turn a blind eye to it..


Why would they "fight" the alleged subsidies received by ME3? Do you want them to complain about all the subsidised Chinese airlines as well? How about Air India or Alitalia? Heck, there's so many airlines they could complain about. But why should they?
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Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:58 am

It would appear Boeing are pi$$ing off more airlines than just Delta.

https://www.airinsight.com/two-more-us- ... e-dispute/

Spirit’s CFO, Edward Christie, wrote that “Spirit believes that Boeing’s complaint is an inappropriate way to block the entry of Bombardier’s CSeries into the US market.” He further notes that if Spirit were to purchase aircraft in the 100-140 seat class, Airbus and Boeing would not be considered, since they do not manufacture aircraft of that size. He went on to say “If Boeing’s complaint prevails, Spirit would be deprived of access to aircraft that would provide significant benefits to US travelers.”


Sun Country’s CEO, Jude Bricker, stated that “American travelers have the right to access the benefits of all aircraft, whether they are from Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier, Embraer or any other aircraft manufacturer.” He indicated that the punitive measures claimed by Boeing would amount to a “tax for American travelers” and could result in an increase in the price of certain tickets.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:14 pm

That sounded like Spirit is eyeing the C Series hard.

Which would make sense if they ever went the Airtran route for a smaller jet for smaller markets like was talked about a couple of years back.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:13 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
That sounded like Spirit is eyeing the C Series hard.


Interesting looking at their fleet and their orders.

Their A320s are being replaced with neos on pretty much a 1:1 basis.

Their A319s have no replacement orders with a current fleet of 31.

Scope for both EMB & BBD to get a useful order.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:13 pm

Boeing shareholder here, and very upset at my company. This is gamesmanship, pure and simple. The fact that Boeing doesn't have a pure apples to apples competitor to the C-Series only makes this all the more clear. I'd love to see my company enter that particular niche market, compete, and churn out a quality product. They haven't, but Bombardier has. Boeing needs to stop interfering and either put up, or shut up.
 
micstatic
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:19 pm

I'll chime in with everyone else. Boeing looks pathetic right now. Most of their recent projects have not been successful. They look like they are devoting way more resources in the courtroom when it should be devoted to engineering good planes in the right niche. They look like losers right now
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wrongwayup
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:57 pm

micstatic wrote:
I'll chime in with everyone else. Boeing looks pathetic right now. Most of their recent projects have not been successful. They look like they are devoting way more resources in the courtroom when it should be devoted to engineering good planes in the right niche. They look like losers right now


I think part of the reason Boeing has gone after this is that it requires *very little* resources to throw up a legal complaint when compared to the resources required to actually develop a credible competitor to the C Series. I just hope the court sees it that way, amidst a political climate that seems to have turned highly protectionist/nationalistic in a very short time.
 
Skywatcher
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:20 pm

I simply can't believe that Boeing is ready to blow away an almost certain order for 18 x F-18 super hornets over this. If politics does enable a favourable decision for Boeing I can't envision any Canadian military procurement from them for the foreseeable future-maybe decades.
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iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:58 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
I simply can't believe that Boeing is ready to blow away an almost certain order for 18 x F-18 super hornets over this. If politics does enable a favourable decision for Boeing I can't envision any Canadian military procurement from them for the foreseeable future-maybe decades.
.


They're probably not, although it's not out of the question, since the CS300 and potential CS500 could have a sales impact a lot larger than 18 Super Hornets.

It's not clear to me they anticipated as strong of a backlash as what resulted. I'm also not certain Boeing ever had any expectation of prevailing. But they probably did disrupt several sales campaigns due to pricing uncertainty.

And the lastest move to delay the ruling extends that uncertainty.
 
ytz
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:53 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
I simply can't believe that Boeing is ready to blow away an almost certain order for 18 x F-18 super hornets over this. If politics does enable a favourable decision for Boeing I can't envision any Canadian military procurement from them for the foreseeable future-maybe decades.
.


It's a lot more than 18 aircraft. That was the toehold for the whole replacement. However, 80 Super Hornets doesn't come close to the money they lose if a US carrier decides to replace a substantial portion of their narrow body fleet with the CSeries. For example, Delta has about 160 717s, 319s and 737-700s that need replacing over the next few years. Tack that on to the 75 they bought. They already have another 50 options available.

And of course, all that is before the aircraft gets into service. That's Boeing's biggest fear. If it gets into service and does well for Delta, they will start planning portions of their fleet around it. Just wait till Delta discovers what they can do with the CASM and range of the Series. And other airlines will follow. Boeing will lose orders to the CSeries. And whatever orders they don't lose will see margins compressed as airlines play off Bombardier against Boeing and Airbus. And that's why they are rushing to lock out the CSeries, before delivery to DL.

Unfortunately for Boeing and Airbus, there is nothing they can do. The pilot shortage is driving upsizing from the 70 seaters. And they don't offer anything around 100 seats. Delta won't be the last airlines to replace regionals with 100 seaters. And having done that, replacing the 120-130 seaters with the CSeries becomes super obvious. Far better to buy Boeing and Airbus only for airplanes above 150 seats....Until the CS500 comes along and does some damage at the lower end of the 150 seat category.....
 
wrongwayup
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:23 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
But they probably did disrupt several sales campaigns due to pricing uncertainty.

And the lastest move to delay the ruling extends that uncertainty.


Win or lose, that in and of itself is enough of a win to make Boeing's case "worthwhile". Being able to plant the seed that a CS100 sells for $19.6M (which is total BS by the way) in the minds of prospective buyers worldwide is an added bonus.

Post edited for clarity.
 
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admanager
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:09 am

Update on Sept. 8.
The Canadian government came to Bombardier’s defense, putting its F/A-18 Super Hornet deal with Boeing on hold until the suit is dropped. Now, Ottawa is evaluating the option of buying second-hand F/A-18s from Australia.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/can ... ets-05739/
The next move is Boeing's.
 
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:15 pm

admanager wrote:
Update on Sept. 8.
The Canadian government came to Bombardier’s defense, putting its F/A-18 Super Hornet deal with Boeing on hold until the suit is dropped. Now, Ottawa is evaluating the option of buying second-hand F/A-18s from Australia.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/can ... ets-05739/
The next move is Boeing's.


In my mind, the absolutely best bet for Canada is more of what they have. The CF-18's, (as well as the US marine F/A 18's), have gone through a very thorough referb program and are good for whatever Canada requires out of fighters for another decade or more. Soon, the US will be replacing theirs, and we could pick them up for peanuts.

True...lots of the Hornets have proven to be too far gone to repair...but there are plenty more that ARE in great shape and even the crappy ones are great parts bins. For the Marines, there aren't nearly enough of the good ones to fit out their squadrons, so replacement is relatively urgent.

For Canada, the numbers of perfectly fine refurbished, modernized f-18's fit our requirements perfectly. Buy them up and store them in the desert.

Or, if we're going to go all new, go with the Gripen NG. Single engine isn't an issue if the F-35 is on the table, and the Gripen can be built right in Canada, so we can have a cost effective front line fighter AND a military aircraft industry.

Either way, Boeing can suck it.
What the...?
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:54 pm

True...lots of the Hornets have proven to be too far gone to repair...but there are plenty more that ARE in great shape and even the crappy ones are great parts bins. For the Marines, there aren't nearly enough of the good ones to fit out their squadrons, so replacement is relatively urgent.


Actually, not so much anymore. The Marine birds, in particular, have been pretty much flown to death. A few years ago, the Navy "cashed out" many of their high time, high carrier landing Hornets with the low time, low carrier landing Marine birds, essentially giving the Marines somewhat worn out aircraft. That move did not sit well with the air wings, being reminiscent of how the Navy treated Marine Air in the days before World War Two (Buffalos and Vindicators, anyone?). Several months ago, they were pulling spare parts off of museum planes due to spare parts shortages. A former student of mine is in Maintenance at Miramar, and the strides they have to make to get just a few Hornets per squadron 100% operational are Herculean. Don't expect any full squadron evolutions unless they're planned out well in advance, with an all hands on deck approach to aircraft maintenance and availability.

The bottom line is that while there are plenty of Hornets parked in the desert, those are generally super high time aircraft well past their primes. As these planes are being replaced or retired, the spares pipeline for Legacy Hornets is slowly drying up. Can you get spares? Can you refurbish old Hornets? Sure. Boeing and North Island do it regularly. Can you do so cost effectively, especially over the many years to come? That's the real question, isn't it? Personally, from what I've been told firsthand, I doubt it.
 
leghorn
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Re: US Airlines Support Bombardier In Trade Dispute

Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:14 pm

Speedalive wrote:

Please confirm: According to the article this cloud hanging over Bombardier hopefully goes away on 25th September. Is that right?
Would Boeing have anything else up their sleeve to frustrate Bombardier in to the next year?
 
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admanager
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:24 am

According to the BBC, the latest is now Prime Minister Theresa May has phoned US President Donald Trump over a threat to jobs at Bombardier in Belfast from a trade dispute.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-41233257
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:00 am

admanager wrote:
According to the BBC, the latest is now Prime Minister Theresa May has phoned US President Donald Trump over a threat to jobs at Bombardier in Belfast from a trade dispute.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-41233257


The UK government wants Canada/Bombardier and Boeing to "seek a negotiated settlement". I wonder how that would work? I don't think the Canadian government or BBD will negotiate because that would be the same thing as admitting they are in the wrong, which we know they won't do after all the drama BBD/Ottawa have been putting out.

I am also certain that Boeing doesn't want a settlement, they want a slam dunk and permanent tariffs on the CSeries.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:46 am

"I will fix the Brexit thing, and hen jump in to help you guys with your negotiation"

Lovely :_)
 
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FabDiva
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:32 am

I wonder if she's being leaned on by the DUP to intervene in this. The plants in question are in Northern Ireland and possibly in DUP constituencies.

For those not familiar with UK politics, after the election disaster left them with a minority government, the Conservatives have essentially bribed the DUP (Democratic Unionist Party - Religious Conservatives from NI) to support them and give them a majority in key votes, whereupon they magically found 1 Billion of public money that could be diverted to projects in DUP constituencies when there was apparently no money for public services before the election.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:33 am

admanager wrote:
According to the BBC, the latest is now Prime Minister Theresa May has phoned US President Donald Trump over a threat to jobs at Bombardier in Belfast from a trade dispute.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-41233257


The UK Government is only worried about protecting jobs in Northern Ireland. They are not really keen to act upon this issue but aim to, at present, hope that this gets blown over with no significant repercussions. They have contacted both parts advising them to reach a settlement but will not be actively involved.

Interestingly, the same report highlights the amount of money put by the UK on BBD to help out on their facilities in Northern Ireland which, more interestingly even, both Boeing and Airbus do reap some benefits.

You might wonder if the UK has realized that the likelihood for a ruling in Boeing's favour is high and want to avoid this hitting jobs in Belfast. That may already give an insight on where the US Chamber's ruling is heading to.

I am sorry for all BBD/C-Series lovers - regardless of the so advertised quality/benefits/etc. etc. this Project is way over budget and sunk on so much government funding that it became an easy target.

OK - you may say that A,B and E also get subsidies but at BBD's scale is simply unheard of. Added to the fact that it is clear, after all this time, that BBD cannot shift any C-Series at a price more close to a commercial reality shows that only subsidies are keeping it afloat and that, without it, the project is dead.

Want to convince me otherwise, do not waste time in replying or being rude (as a lot of people here can be...) - just show me the orders and I will gladly apologize and retract my comments.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:56 am

Jomar777 wrote:
The UK Government is only worried about protecting jobs in Northern Ireland. They are not really keen to act upon this issue but aim to, at present, hope that this gets blown over with no significant repercussions. They have contacted both parts advising them to reach a settlement but will not be actively involved.


Funny enough those jobs wont stay in NI much longer after Brexit, due to government's acts. They have no clue what they are doing indeed...
 
Jomar777
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:52 am

Jayafe wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
The UK Government is only worried about protecting jobs in Northern Ireland. They are not really keen to act upon this issue but aim to, at present, hope that this gets blown over with no significant repercussions. They have contacted both parts advising them to reach a settlement but will not be actively involved.


Funny enough those jobs wont stay in NI much longer after Brexit, due to government's acts. They have no clue what they are doing indeed...


Do not agree with you but sympathize with your opinion. However, Brexit is simply not the case here but BBD's woes...
 
Flexbird
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:02 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
I simply can't believe that Boeing is ready to blow away an almost certain order for 18 x F-18 super hornets over this. If politics does enable a favourable decision for Boeing I can't envision any Canadian military procurement from them for the foreseeable future-maybe decades.
.


It's not just the interim fighter fleet that's up for grabs. The RCAF also has a future requirement to replace the CC-150 Polaris fleet of tankers and VVIP transports, the CC-130H(T) tactical tankers, the CP-140 Aurora Maritime Patrol, and of course the whole fighter fleet. All in all that's probably going to be in the $20 Billion range (if not more). There's also a possibility of getting more heavy lift helicopters to augment or replace the CH-147F Chinook.
 
downdata
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:56 am

Bombardier concedes likely loss in trade complaint, looks to next phase

https://leehamnews.com/2017/09/14/bomba ... ext-phase/
 
vfw614
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:10 am

It's a lot more than 18 aircraft. That was the toehold for the whole replacement. However, 80 Super Hornets doesn't come close to the money they lose if a US carrier decides to replace a substantial portion of their narrow body fleet with the CSeries. For example, Delta has about 160 717s, 319s and 737-700s that need replacing over the next few years. Tack that on to the 75 they bought. They already have another 50 options available


All true. But Boeing has nothing on offer that fits. Or does Boeing hope that Delta will buy 737-800s instead of much better suited smaller aircraft? Isn't it more likely that Delta would go for something like the 130seat E195 instead?

There is an interesting comment to the Leeham article linked above, by the way:

The best solution is to lease Cs100 to Delta ia an entity based in Canada and the problem will be solved … that is how Russian airlines are operating using Irish lease companies


Any thoughts on this?
 
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mercure1
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:01 pm

downdata wrote:
Bombardier concedes likely loss in trade complaint, looks to next phase

https://leehamnews.com/2017/09/14/bomba ... ext-phase/


:thumbsup: Good

Now lets see how much the tariff will be on the Delta CS100s. Article says penalties could be as high as 79 percent.

A preliminary decision is expected Sept. 25.
mercure f-wtcc
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:04 pm

vfw614 wrote:
The best solution is to lease Cs100 to Delta ia an entity based in Canada and the problem will be solved … that is how Russian airlines are operating using Irish lease companies


Any thoughts on this?

An entity based in Canada cannot fly US domestic.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:10 pm

downdata wrote:
Bombardier concedes likely loss in trade complaint, looks to next phase

https://leehamnews.com/2017/09/14/bomba ... ext-phase/


Once again, another example of just how stupid the legal system and those that operate it, can be.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:13 pm

Polot wrote:
An entity based in Canada cannot fly US domestic.


Is it the lessor that is considered to fly the aircraft?

Or is it the lessee?

Or does it depend on a shade of grey between fully dry and fully wet leasing?
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:18 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Polot wrote:
An entity based in Canada cannot fly US domestic.


Is it the lessor that is considered to fly the aircraft?

Or is it the lessee?

Or does it depend on a shade of grey between fully dry and fully wet leasing?

Ah, I see what they are saying now.

Anyways Russian airlines do that to circumvent taxes on registering foreign aircraft (taxes that I believe have been relaxed so it is less common now). DL leasing the C Series "extremely" cheap from a Canadian lessor will just shift the target of price dumping from BBD to the Canadian lessor, and in that case you might also have some American leasing companies join Boeing in being upset.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:20 pm

Polot wrote:
DL leasing the C Series "extremely" cheap from a Canadian lessor will just shift the target of price dumping from BBD to the Canadian lessor, and in that case you might also have some American leasing companies join Boeing in being upset.


If the leasing company has no other customer, how would the court prove they are leasing below cost relative to any leases they'd offer in their home country?


Its total legal BS of course - but if that is the game Boeing want to play - BBD will just have get into the sty with them. Playing clean won't win.
 
PPVRA
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Re: US Airlines Support Bombardier In Trade Dispute

Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:26 pm

Speedalive wrote:


Perhaps Spirit and Sun Country are expecting similar cut-rate deals with BBD. I'd imagine UA and AA would like those rates too, otherwise it might be difficult to compete with Delta. None of these airlines (Spirit and Sun included) would appreciate BBD helping out their strongest competitor, Delta, without extending that same deal to them. If they don't, they might as well join Boeing on the anti-dumping case.

Question is, when does BBD make a profit? Only overseas?
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:28 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Polot wrote:
DL leasing the C Series "extremely" cheap from a Canadian lessor will just shift the target of price dumping from BBD to the Canadian lessor, and in that case you might also have some American leasing companies join Boeing in being upset.


If the leasing company has no other customer, how would the court prove they are leasing below cost relative to any leases they'd offer in their home country?


Its total legal BS of course - but if that is the game Boeing want to play - BBD will just have get into the sty with them. Playing clean won't win.

Idk, but coming up with creative ways to get around blanket taxes is generally easier than coming up with creative ways to get around rulings in regards to specific deals without landing yourself in further hot water.
 
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thewizbizman
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:28 pm

You see, with this we can't speculate anything. Things like this happen all the time behind closed doors. So we honestly have to wait and see how this turns out. Boeing has been exaggerating about the "It could put us out of business" claim. It is really a square, You have Boeing, Bombardier, US Government and Delta Air Lines.
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bigjku
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:34 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Polot wrote:
DL leasing the C Series "extremely" cheap from a Canadian lessor will just shift the target of price dumping from BBD to the Canadian lessor, and in that case you might also have some American leasing companies join Boeing in being upset.


If the leasing company has no other customer, how would the court prove they are leasing below cost relative to any leases they'd offer in their home country?


Its total legal BS of course - but if that is the game Boeing want to play - BBD will just have get into the sty with them. Playing clean won't win.


I am interested in your legal background. How exactly is it legal BS? The law itself seems fairly clear and BBD admits we are going to lose. Seems perhaps they should have followed the law?
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:52 pm

downdata wrote:
Bombardier concedes likely loss in trade complaint, looks to next phase

https://leehamnews.com/2017/09/14/bomba ... ext-phase/

This is not Leeham's best work. There's no direct quotes of anyone from Bombardier conceding anything whatsoever. In fact, all the quotes from Cromer are the opposite of concession. I don't know how Leeham created this headline or the first paragraph of the article. I've also searched online for any other information that would support Leeham's headline, and I found none.

At best, one can speculate whether BBD's legal representation is doing some worst case scenario planning. This headline seems like clickbait to me.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:53 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Playing clean won't win.


If BBD had played clean it would not be facing these charges.

The entire C-series program financial structure and ownership have become quite dubious and rightfully opens BBD up to questions.
Last edited by LAXintl on Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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StTim
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:04 pm

It strikes me as big country big company trying to ensure a small competitor in a small country is quashed.

I cannot see them taking on Comac or Sukhoi in a similar manner.

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