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rbavfan
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:58 pm

What did Boeing call their below cost to United deal to block the CS deal for United. I'd say selling under cost makes Boeing a price dumper as well. also sorry guys but Delta was right Boeing had nothing to offer in the seat catagory so if it's price dumping they should file a dispute against Boeing for do that on the CS100/UA deal. Pot meet Kettle.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:18 am

I agree with Boeing. Delta only purchased the C series because it was cheap/dumped. The CS100 does not have better CASM than a MAX8.

The CS100 is heavier per passenger when fitted with similar full economy seats when compared to the Max8, A320 and the Bombardier E195.

Granted the Max8 carries more passengers so the route would have to support that many passengers. Delta would simply offer less frequency or maybe at worse cancel a couple of the smaller routes.

The big problem I see as Bombardier won't get any more big orders while this court case is pending. If the Delta order falls through that would be a massive and potentially knock out blow to Bombardier.

I agree with a few previous posters than Boeing wants to purchase Bombardier and produce the CS500 as a replacement for the 737. That way Boeing only has to develop the MOM aircraft sitting slightly above the 737-10 and the CS500 sitting perfectly in 737-8 territory.

Bombardier also has aircraft that Boeing could use to compete against the Gulfstream G550 for future USAF orders.

I hope Bombardier wins in court, gets another big order and produces the CS500. Competition is good, but its not looking good for Bombardier :(
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:40 am

rbavfan wrote:
What did Boeing call their below cost to United deal to block the CS deal for United. I'd say selling under cost makes Boeing a price dumper as well. also sorry guys but Delta was right Boeing had nothing to offer in the seat catagory so if it's price dumping they should file a dispute against Boeing for do that on the CS100/UA deal. Pot meet Kettle.


According to U.S. laws, dumping only applies if a foreign entity does it. Boeing "dumping" planes to United does not count as dumping under US law as both Boeing and United are American companies. This law is mostly about attempting to protect U.S. jobs/companies. American companies can "dump" all they want within the confines of the U.S. because it doesn't result in the potential loss of sales/jobs to American companies.
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:46 am

RJMAZ wrote:
I agree with a few previous posters than Boeing wants to purchase Bombardier and produce the CS500 as a replacement for the 737. That way Boeing only has to develop the MOM aircraft sitting slightly above the 737-10 and the CS500 sitting perfectly in 737-8 territory.

Bombardier also has aircraft that Boeing could use to compete against the Gulfstream G550 for future USAF orders.



I'm not sure why so any people think that Boeing wants to purchase the CSeries program. If they wanted to, they could have in 2015 when BBD was at rock bottom and was shopping around looking to offload the plane to Airbus. Additionally, it would be problematic that the CSeries has no commonality with any of Boeing's products.
 
downdata
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:16 pm

https://leehamnews.com/2017/09/25/ponti ... t-history/

According to leeham news, a tariff in the order of $32m will be levied per plane. I don't think we'll see cseries orders in the US for years to come...
 
Jamie514
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:41 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
What did Boeing call their below cost to United deal to block the CS deal for United. I'd say selling under cost makes Boeing a price dumper as well. also sorry guys but Delta was right Boeing had nothing to offer in the seat catagory so if it's price dumping they should file a dispute against Boeing for do that on the CS100/UA deal. Pot meet Kettle.


According to U.S. laws, dumping only applies if a foreign entity does it. Boeing "dumping" planes to United does not count as dumping under US law as both Boeing and United are American companies. This law is mostly about attempting to protect U.S. jobs/companies. American companies can "dump" all they want within the confines of the U.S. because it doesn't result in the potential loss of sales/jobs to American companies.


Right! And in the Bbd Cseries assembled 50 miles above the unprotected borderline, by a massive FREE TRADE partner and closest ally, of a plane more than 50% sourced in the US parts and supply chain, you see an obvious fit to that "foreign entity" definition. Zero nuance. Could be the Irkut MSC-21 with Aviadvigatel engines, your old boys commission sees it all the same.

Was perfectly fair play when AC was sold cheap Max-8s tho, when apparently the CS300 would be a suitable domestic substitute per a simple extrapolation of the initial findings that the Max-7 is a suitable sub for the CS100.

Edit: corrected MC-21 designation
Last edited by Jamie514 on Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:43 pm

downdata wrote:
https://leehamnews.com/2017/09/25/pontifications-revisionist-history/

According to leeham news, a tariff in the order of $32m will be levied per plane. I don't think we'll see cseries orders in the US for years to come...


Well it won't stop CSeries from entering Delta's fleet next year.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:24 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Granted the Max8 carries more passengers so the route would have to support that many passengers. Delta would simply offer less frequency or maybe at worse cancel a couple of the smaller routes.


Yes, let´s make Delta do anything that creates a case to buy the Max. The fact they they dont need a so big plane isnt relevante here. Please, keep walking....
 
SteelChair
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:46 pm

What is to prevent Delta and Bombardier from simply restructuring the deal?
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:22 pm

SteelChair wrote:
What is to prevent Delta and Bombardier from simply restructuring the deal?


As far as I know, any tariff enacted will apply to all sales. Restructuring wouldn't get around it. See for example, WashingtonFlyer's mention up thread that transferring the sale to a foreign leasing company and leasing the aircraft does not get around tariffs.

downdata wrote:
According to leeham news, a tariff in the order of $32m will be levied per plane. I don't think we'll see cseries orders in the US for years to come...


I find that number incredibly hard to believe.

That would not be corrective or even punitive. That would be vindictive.
 
CS500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:36 pm

Based on quite a few of the articles, anti-dumping before any product is delivered is unusual (and likely to be rejected by the appeals court). So I doubt it is clear as to what ability to reformat the deal would be available afterwards
 
CS500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:42 pm

Also, JetBlue comes out in support of the CSeries...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ng-441478/
 
bigjku
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:49 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
What is to prevent Delta and Bombardier from simply restructuring the deal?


As far as I know, any tariff enacted will apply to all sales. Restructuring wouldn't get around it. See for example, WashingtonFlyer's mention up thread that transferring the sale to a foreign leasing company and leasing the aircraft does not get around tariffs.

downdata wrote:
According to leeham news, a tariff in the order of $32m will be levied per plane. I don't think we'll see cseries orders in the US for years to come...


I find that number incredibly hard to believe.

That would not be corrective or even punitive. That would be vindictive.


With regard to your last statement do you have evidence to support that? BBD has had lots of time to provide the accounting information necessary to both Commerce and to he public and hasn’t unless I missed it.

Besides it being a big number how have you determined it isn’t corrective or punative? Do you know the cost per frame to build? Have they presented an accounting block somewhere we can all use? All this information could be made available and debated. We know lots about the accounting of programs at other publicly held companies after all. Otherwise the objection to this number just seems emotional.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:19 pm

bigjku wrote:
With regard to your last statement do you have evidence to support that?


You take the charge that BBD took for contract provision, conservatively assume that it is for the Delta orders only, then divide by the number of aircraft Delta have ordered.

Doesn't take much brains to work out 500/75 does it?
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:31 pm

bigjku wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
downdata wrote:
According to leeham news, a tariff in the order of $32m will be levied per plane. I don't think we'll see cseries orders in the US for years to come...


I find that number incredibly hard to believe.

That would not be corrective or even punitive. That would be vindictive.


With regard to your last statement do you have evidence to support that? BBD has had lots of time to provide the accounting information necessary to both Commerce and to he public and hasn’t unless I missed it.

Besides it being a big number how have you determined it isn’t corrective or punative? Do you know the cost per frame to build? Have they presented an accounting block somewhere we can all use? All this information could be made available and debated. We know lots about the accounting of programs at other publicly held companies after all. Otherwise the objection to this number just seems emotional.


Of course I don't, aside from the point Amiga raised. Boeing is the moving party. It is their job to demonstrate that:

(1) Correctively, that Bombardier underpriced the CSeries by $32 million

or

(2) Punitively, both:
(a) Whatever information Bombardier failed to provide, they did have an obligation to provide
(b) That the severity of that failure is proportionate to a $32 million (minus actual corrective value) per frame punitive action, and such a large punitive measure is necessary to compel cooperation in the future.
 
bigjku
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:45 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
bigjku wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:

I find that number incredibly hard to believe.

That would not be corrective or even punitive. That would be vindictive.


With regard to your last statement do you have evidence to support that? BBD has had lots of time to provide the accounting information necessary to both Commerce and to he public and hasn’t unless I missed it.

Besides it being a big number how have you determined it isn’t corrective or punative? Do you know the cost per frame to build? Have they presented an accounting block somewhere we can all use? All this information could be made available and debated. We know lots about the accounting of programs at other publicly held companies after all. Otherwise the objection to this number just seems emotional.


Of course I don't, aside from the point Amiga raised. Boeing is the moving party. It is their job to demonstrate that:

(1) Correctively, that Bombardier underpriced the CSeries by $32 million

or

(2) Punitively, both:
(a) Whatever information Bombardier failed to provide, they did have an obligation to provide
(b) That the severity of that failure is proportionate to a $32 million (minus actual corrective value) per frame punitive action, and such a large punitive measure is necessary to compel cooperation in the future.


I agree it’s on Boeing to prove (though BBD is compelled to provide information required when asked) with regards to Commerce. I didn’t ask that.

You said it was vindictive. I am asking how you have determined that. We know roughly how Commerce will figure out any penalties. Other than one not liking the number does anyone here have information to deem any penalty vindictive?
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:52 pm

bigjku wrote:
I agree it’s on Boeing to prove (though BBD is compelled to provide information required when asked) with regards to Commerce. I didn’t ask that.

You said it was vindictive. I am asking how you have determined that. We know roughly how Commerce will figure out any penalties. Other than one not liking the number does anyone here have information to deem any penalty vindictive?


I am making an assumption Boeing has not proven what I understand would be necessary. That per frame figure is so huge it blows my mind - it suggests the CSeries costs as much as 2-1/2 times what the competing product (if the $22 million 737-700 deal to United was a true rumor and not an anti-competitive action on Boeing's part) costs to build.
 
bigjku
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:30 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
bigjku wrote:
I agree it’s on Boeing to prove (though BBD is compelled to provide information required when asked) with regards to Commerce. I didn’t ask that.

You said it was vindictive. I am asking how you have determined that. We know roughly how Commerce will figure out any penalties. Other than one not liking the number does anyone here have information to deem any penalty vindictive?


I am making an assumption Boeing has not proven what I understand would be necessary. That per frame figure is so huge it blows my mind - it suggests the CSeries costs as much as 2-1/2 times what the competing product (if the $22 million 737-700 deal to United was a true rumor and not an anti-competitive action on Boeing's part) costs to build.


I don’t find it hard to believe at all. 737 and A320 both use well refined and established supply chains that have been refined over decades. Neither uses a lot of advanced materials really. Both Airbus and Boeing looked at a new, presumably mostly composite, narrowbody and took a pass. They both looked at the cost of a new more efficient airframe and said they can’t command enough price against the expected cost to develope and produce it to make a profit and make it work.

It wouldn’t shock me at all if it’s twice as much to produce or more than well established and less advanced designs. There are going to be production cost that don’t scale down because it’s smaller on certain infrastructure items needed for a mostly composite aircraft. You have issues of what BBD pays for materials as well as it isn’t getting the volume discounts Boeing or Airbus would. BBD is a bigger risk for a supplier as well so they can and should charge more.

2-3 times as expensive to produce wouldn’t shock me in the slightest.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:41 pm

bigjku wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
bigjku wrote:
I agree it’s on Boeing to prove (though BBD is compelled to provide information required when asked) with regards to Commerce. I didn’t ask that.

You said it was vindictive. I am asking how you have determined that. We know roughly how Commerce will figure out any penalties. Other than one not liking the number does anyone here have information to deem any penalty vindictive?


I am making an assumption Boeing has not proven what I understand would be necessary. That per frame figure is so huge it blows my mind - it suggests the CSeries costs as much as 2-1/2 times what the competing product (if the $22 million 737-700 deal to United was a true rumor and not an anti-competitive action on Boeing's part) costs to build.


I don’t find it hard to believe at all. 737 and A320 both use well refined and established supply chains that have been refined over decades. Neither uses a lot of advanced materials really. Both Airbus and Boeing looked at a new, presumably mostly composite, narrowbody and took a pass. They both looked at the cost of a new more efficient airframe and said they can’t command enough price against the expected cost to develope and produce it to make a profit and make it work.

It wouldn’t shock me at all if it’s twice as much to produce or more than well established and less advanced designs. There are going to be production cost that don’t scale down because it’s smaller on certain infrastructure items needed for a mostly composite aircraft. You have issues of what BBD pays for materials as well as it isn’t getting the volume discounts Boeing or Airbus would. BBD is a bigger risk for a supplier as well so they can and should charge more.

2-3 times as expensive to produce wouldn’t shock me in the slightest.


My mind hurts in this thread...

2-3 times as expensive to produce would be counter to the entire practice of intelligent manufacturing and supply stream.

Even IF BBD couldn't get great terms from suppliers (and yes they can, there are many MANY groups competing for subcontracts of almost any type), the part themselves will be lighter and less expensive than the equivalent part from a 73MAX-7 or 319NEO.

You might be able to find some evidence that it should costs even as a high end 20% more overall, but 200-300% is so stratospheric it would not be selling at all.

It is by almost every estimation quite the reverse, the CSeries costs on the order of 25-35% LESS to build than the 737MAX-7.
Last edited by northstardc4m on Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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StTim
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:44 pm

How much more than the long term build costs were the first 300 or so 787's? You cannot look at the first frames are derive the long term cost directly.

I know the legislation being used is to stop foreign competition from being able to compete (fairly as well as unfairly) in the US. I dread to think what squeals there would be if the EU had similar legislation and had used it against Boeing and the 787.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:06 pm

bigjku wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
bigjku wrote:
I agree it’s on Boeing to prove (though BBD is compelled to provide information required when asked) with regards to Commerce. I didn’t ask that.

You said it was vindictive. I am asking how you have determined that. We know roughly how Commerce will figure out any penalties. Other than one not liking the number does anyone here have information to deem any penalty vindictive?


I am making an assumption Boeing has not proven what I understand would be necessary. That per frame figure is so huge it blows my mind - it suggests the CSeries costs as much as 2-1/2 times what the competing product (if the $22 million 737-700 deal to United was a true rumor and not an anti-competitive action on Boeing's part) costs to build.


I don’t find it hard to believe at all. 737 and A320 both use well refined and established supply chains that have been refined over decades. Neither uses a lot of advanced materials really. Both Airbus and Boeing looked at a new, presumably mostly composite, narrowbody and took a pass. They both looked at the cost of a new more efficient airframe and said they can’t command enough price against the expected cost to develope and produce it to make a profit and make it work.

It wouldn’t shock me at all if it’s twice as much to produce or more than well established and less advanced designs. There are going to be production cost that don’t scale down because it’s smaller on certain infrastructure items needed for a mostly composite aircraft. You have issues of what BBD pays for materials as well as it isn’t getting the volume discounts Boeing or Airbus would. BBD is a bigger risk for a supplier as well so they can and should charge more.

2-3 times as expensive to produce wouldn’t shock me in the slightest.


First of all, although I have not had time to try digging up any filings that might be public, outlets like Forbes are reporting Boeing's allegations as being in the range of 1.5X, and other sources are unsurprisingly disputing those claims:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthomp ... c37d212d61

Secondly, Bombardier's management gets a lot of flak on these forums, and a lot of it is arguably deserved. However, the magnitude of cost difference you're supposing would indicate such a radically non-competitive product that they must actually have an active desire to drive the company into a spectacular bankruptcy, or the project would have ended years ago.
 
bigjku
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:10 pm

StTim wrote:
How much more than the long term build costs were the first 300 or so 787's? You cannot look at the first frames are derive the long term cost directly.

I know the legislation being used is to stop foreign competition from being able to compete (fairly as well as unfairly) in the US. I dread to think what squeals there would be if the EU had similar legislation and had used it against Boeing and the 787.


Again, Boeing could make a case that it had a sales backlog well in excess of the first 300. BBD can’t. It doesn’t have the sales.

Yes, I would expect BBD to get the cost way down eventually. But I would still expect that on an ongoing basis a C series will cost more than a comparable 737/A320 until the production rates approach something near parity. They are proposing to build this at 6-7 times slower of a rate than 737/a320’s are built.

Boeing would have a lot of expertise on this for all the grief many hear want to give them. They studied a composite narrowbody hard and from people I have talked to there while the A320NEO was an issue the big problem with it was you can’t squeeze enough efficiency gains out of more advanced materials to overcome the increased cost. You get eaten alive by discounting of existing but less advanced frames.

The two biggest builders of airplanes on earth looked at this problem and both decided it couldn’t be done in a competitive manner. They are building at many multiples higher production rate. I don’t think a 2-3 times price difference is crazy here. Particularly if you make BBD declare an accounting block based on what they have sold at this time, even if you let them add 25% to that.
 
bigjku
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:46 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
bigjku wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:

I am making an assumption Boeing has not proven what I understand would be necessary. That per frame figure is so huge it blows my mind - it suggests the CSeries costs as much as 2-1/2 times what the competing product (if the $22 million 737-700 deal to United was a true rumor and not an anti-competitive action on Boeing's part) costs to build.


I don’t find it hard to believe at all. 737 and A320 both use well refined and established supply chains that have been refined over decades. Neither uses a lot of advanced materials really. Both Airbus and Boeing looked at a new, presumably mostly composite, narrowbody and took a pass. They both looked at the cost of a new more efficient airframe and said they can’t command enough price against the expected cost to develope and produce it to make a profit and make it work.

It wouldn’t shock me at all if it’s twice as much to produce or more than well established and less advanced designs. There are going to be production cost that don’t scale down because it’s smaller on certain infrastructure items needed for a mostly composite aircraft. You have issues of what BBD pays for materials as well as it isn’t getting the volume discounts Boeing or Airbus would. BBD is a bigger risk for a supplier as well so they can and should charge more.

2-3 times as expensive to produce wouldn’t shock me in the slightest.


First of all, although I have not had time to try digging up any filings that might be public, outlets like Forbes are reporting Boeing's allegations as being in the range of 1.5X, and other sources are unsurprisingly disputing those claims:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthomp ... c37d212d61

Secondly, Bombardier's management gets a lot of flak on these forums, and a lot of it is arguably deserved. However, the magnitude of cost difference you're supposing would indicate such a radically non-competitive product that they must actually have an active desire to drive the company into a spectacular bankruptcy, or the project would have ended years ago.


The project likely should have been dropped years ago. That is kind of the point...
 
bigjku
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Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:12 pm

northstardc4m wrote:
bigjku wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:

I am making an assumption Boeing has not proven what I understand would be necessary. That per frame figure is so huge it blows my mind - it suggests the CSeries costs as much as 2-1/2 times what the competing product (if the $22 million 737-700 deal to United was a true rumor and not an anti-competitive action on Boeing's part) costs to build.


I don’t find it hard to believe at all. 737 and A320 both use well refined and established supply chains that have been refined over decades. Neither uses a lot of advanced materials really. Both Airbus and Boeing looked at a new, presumably mostly composite, narrowbody and took a pass. They both looked at the cost of a new more efficient airframe and said they can’t command enough price against the expected cost to develope and produce it to make a profit and make it work.

It wouldn’t shock me at all if it’s twice as much to produce or more than well established and less advanced designs. There are going to be production cost that don’t scale down because it’s smaller on certain infrastructure items needed for a mostly composite aircraft. You have issues of what BBD pays for materials as well as it isn’t getting the volume discounts Boeing or Airbus would. BBD is a bigger risk for a supplier as well so they can and should charge more.

2-3 times as expensive to produce wouldn’t shock me in the slightest.


My mind hurts in this thread...

2-3 times as expensive to produce would be counter to the entire practice of intelligent manufacturing and supply stream.

Even IF BBD couldn't get great terms from suppliers (and yes they can, there are many MANY groups competing for subcontracts of almost any type), the part themselves will be lighter and less expensive than the equivalent part from a 73MAX-7 or 319NEO.

You might be able to find some evidence that it should costs even as a high end 20% more overall, but 200-300% is so stratospheric it would not be selling at all.

It is by almost every estimation quite the reverse, the CSeries costs on the order of 25-35% LESS to build than the 737MAX-7.


There are plenty of metrics that would suggest otherwise and that Boeing is vastly more efficient as a company in production than BBD is. As a whole Boeing drives more than 2 and a half times that amount of revenue per employee as does BBD. Commercial aircraft divisions show Boeing driving twice as much revenue per employee.

So it isn’t insane to suggest that Boeing is far better at building airplanes efficiently than is BBD. It’s right there in the numbers. That won’t translate ina direct one for one to the cost of a plane but it all plays in.

It has more expensive materials. It has much smaller scale of production. BBD has a factor of 6 to overcome here once it reaches its peak estimated production. These are all huge factors. I agree that produced on he same scale by a company of equally inherent efficiency it should be comparable or maybe a bit cheaper. But that isn’t the case.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:12 pm

It's after quitting time in DC. I just checked the Commerce Department website and also did a news search. So far I am not seeing any indications a decision has been released, but I guess today was the earliest date expected, not a firm date.
 
wrongwayup
Posts: 442
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:23 pm

Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:35 pm

Apparently the decision on whether the subsidies were legal is due today, but released publicly tomorrow (Tues Sept 26th).

This is the most thorough timeline I've seen: http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/boeing-b ... -1.3603706
 
SteelChair
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Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:05 am

Is there ANY way out of this if Bombardier loses the ruling? Could they obtain private capital and pay the Canadian government back and thereby avoid the duties? Surely they and Delta have legal departments that have considered options, no? Delta’s chairman said a few months ago that a ruling would not affect Detla's order.

If the US does this, I will be like Michelle Obama: ashamed of my country. Spin it any way you like, its a despicable act by Boeing and the US government.

Such an act would probably also ensure Delta becomes an even bigger Airbus customer in the years ahead.
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:36 am

leeham outlines the next options in case of a loss for BBD;

https://leehamnews.com/2017/09/18/ponti ... complaint/
What the...?
 
bigjku
Posts: 1906
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:22 am

SteelChair wrote:
Is there ANY way out of this if Bombardier loses the ruling? Could they obtain private capital and pay the Canadian government back and thereby avoid the duties? Surely they and Delta have legal departments that have considered options, no? Delta’s chairman said a few months ago that a ruling would not affect Detla's order.

If the US does this, I will be like Michelle Obama: ashamed of my country. Spin it any way you like, its a despicable act by Boeing and the US government.

Such an act would probably also ensure Delta becomes an even bigger Airbus customer in the years ahead.


If BBD violates the law should it not be enforced?

Also no, there is no commercial alternative for the financing they need. If there was they would take it.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:57 am

bigjku wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Is there ANY way out of this if Bombardier loses the ruling? Could they obtain private capital and pay the Canadian government back and thereby avoid the duties? Surely they and Delta have legal departments that have considered options, no? Delta’s chairman said a few months ago that a ruling would not affect Detla's order.

If the US does this, I will be like Michelle Obama: ashamed of my country. Spin it any way you like, its a despicable act by Boeing and the US government.

Such an act would probably also ensure Delta becomes an even bigger Airbus customer in the years ahead.


If BBD violates the law should it not be enforced?

Also no, there is no commercial alternative for the financing they need. If there was they would take it.

Laws aren't made to be broken, but they certainly do get ignored. There are plenty of unenforced laws on the books, in pretty much every country in the world, including the US. Why doesn't the US federal gov't prosecute every Coloradan in possession of marijuana? And, then there's the whole concept of desuetude. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desuetude

There's any number of reasons why laws are not necessarily enforced. Political/diplomatic pressure is a major potential reason. It is absolutely possible that with sufficient political pressure from the UK and Canada, this whole issue could find a way of just evaporating. Theresa May is the PM only because the Conservatives have a coalition with the DUP. The DUP is entirely from Northern Ireland, where BBD creates 4500 high-paying jobs, and that's just the direct employees. If you sufficiently piss off the DUP, they could collapse the UK gov't and trigger an election. The loss of BBD could well be a big enough issue for them. So, the stakes are high enough that pressure from the UK alone could be sufficient. And, as much as Trump might say otherwise, he needs every ally he can get right now.
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:31 am

aerolimani wrote:

If BBD violates the law should it not be enforced?


BBD did not violate the law. Boeing did.
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:50 am

BlueSky1976 wrote:
aerolimani wrote:

If BBD violates the law should it not be enforced?


BBD did not violate the law. Boeing did.

Sorry, but I think you made a quoting mistake. It was bigjku, as follows.

bigjku wrote:
If BBD violates the law should it not be enforced?
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:06 am

I'm sorry for that, this new quoting mechanism is... flawed, to say the least.
The queen of the skies is dead.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:00 am

northstardc4m wrote:
bigjku wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:

I am making an assumption Boeing has not proven what I understand would be necessary. That per frame figure is so huge it blows my mind - it suggests the CSeries costs as much as 2-1/2 times what the competing product (if the $22 million 737-700 deal to United was a true rumor and not an anti-competitive action on Boeing's part) costs to build.


I don’t find it hard to believe at all. 737 and A320 both use well refined and established supply chains that have been refined over decades. Neither uses a lot of advanced materials really. Both Airbus and Boeing looked at a new, presumably mostly composite, narrowbody and took a pass. They both looked at the cost of a new more efficient airframe and said they can’t command enough price against the expected cost to develope and produce it to make a profit and make it work.

It wouldn’t shock me at all if it’s twice as much to produce or more than well established and less advanced designs. There are going to be production cost that don’t scale down because it’s smaller on certain infrastructure items needed for a mostly composite aircraft. You have issues of what BBD pays for materials as well as it isn’t getting the volume discounts Boeing or Airbus would. BBD is a bigger risk for a supplier as well so they can and should charge more.

2-3 times as expensive to produce wouldn’t shock me in the slightest.


My mind hurts in this thread...

2-3 times as expensive to produce would be counter to the entire practice of intelligent manufacturing and supply stream.

Even IF BBD couldn't get great terms from suppliers (and yes they can, there are many MANY groups competing for subcontracts of almost any type), the part themselves will be lighter and less expensive than the equivalent part from a 73MAX-7 or 319NEO.

You might be able to find some evidence that it should costs even as a high end 20% more overall, but 200-300% is so stratospheric it would not be selling at all.

It is by almost every estimation quite the reverse, the CSeries costs on the order of 25-35% LESS to build than the 737MAX-7.


Sorry but you are wrong. I could go on and on an don in regards to R&D, cost of composites, tests, etc. etc. etc.
But it is slightly simpler than that:

1) If the fine of US$ 32m/plane is really true it shows clearly that Boeing has managed to expose a case which BBD could not defend. As said before, BBD had clear opportunity to state their case and show their numbers so either they were no convincing or inexistent;
2) A Fact that I have stated on and on and on on other posts: if the C-Series is so good and so competitive pricewise, why does it not sell more????? Nobody is buying it and I am not speaking about US Customers only. We've had already several Air Shows in which BBD comes always empty handed. Only the fact that the only major order that came along (DL's 75 frames) is subject of investigation for price dumping, tells you a lot.

I gather than the C-Series is a good plane but looks more like a Concorde one than a B737/A320 one. Pretty, efficient but very expensive. If BBD had several significant orders around the globe for a price similar to the Delta's one, then Boeing would not even be able to put into court. And Brazil would not have a new WTO Case going on either.
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:07 am

CSeries isn't selling because at least in one recent campaign, Boeing defeated it by offering its own, obsolete and inferior product at a dumping price themselves. Bombardier itself is hampered by issues with the powerplant, however data from Swiss and Air Baltic speaks for itself - the plane is burning less fuel than in the brochure and is more efficient.

The history repeats itself. When Canada developed better airplane in the past, US ordered Canadian government to kill the program in order to sell its own, inferior, generation-behind product. Thankfully, US doesn't equal the rest of the world and those, who will wish to buy CSeries, will buy it - unless, of course, Boeing and its croony lobbyists sell their own aircraft at a dumping price, like they did to United Air Lines.
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northstardc4m
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:21 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
northstardc4m wrote:
bigjku wrote:

I don’t find it hard to believe at all. 737 and A320 both use well refined and established supply chains that have been refined over decades. Neither uses a lot of advanced materials really. Both Airbus and Boeing looked at a new, presumably mostly composite, narrowbody and took a pass. They both looked at the cost of a new more efficient airframe and said they can’t command enough price against the expected cost to develope and produce it to make a profit and make it work.

It wouldn’t shock me at all if it’s twice as much to produce or more than well established and less advanced designs. There are going to be production cost that don’t scale down because it’s smaller on certain infrastructure items needed for a mostly composite aircraft. You have issues of what BBD pays for materials as well as it isn’t getting the volume discounts Boeing or Airbus would. BBD is a bigger risk for a supplier as well so they can and should charge more.

2-3 times as expensive to produce wouldn’t shock me in the slightest.


My mind hurts in this thread...

2-3 times as expensive to produce would be counter to the entire practice of intelligent manufacturing and supply stream.

Even IF BBD couldn't get great terms from suppliers (and yes they can, there are many MANY groups competing for subcontracts of almost any type), the part themselves will be lighter and less expensive than the equivalent part from a 73MAX-7 or 319NEO.

You might be able to find some evidence that it should costs even as a high end 20% more overall, but 200-300% is so stratospheric it would not be selling at all.

It is by almost every estimation quite the reverse, the CSeries costs on the order of 25-35% LESS to build than the 737MAX-7.


Sorry but you are wrong. I could go on and on an don in regards to R&D, cost of composites, tests, etc. etc. etc.
But it is slightly simpler than that:

1) If the fine of US$ 32m/plane is really true it shows clearly that Boeing has managed to expose a case which BBD could not defend. As said before, BBD had clear opportunity to state their case and show their numbers so either they were no convincing or inexistent;
2) A Fact that I have stated on and on and on on other posts: if the C-Series is so good and so competitive pricewise, why does it not sell more????? Nobody is buying it and I am not speaking about US Customers only. We've had already several Air Shows in which BBD comes always empty handed. Only the fact that the only major order that came along (DL's 75 frames) is subject of investigation for price dumping, tells you a lot.

I gather than the C-Series is a good plane but looks more like a Concorde one than a B737/A320 one. Pretty, efficient but very expensive. If BBD had several significant orders around the globe for a price similar to the Delta's one, then Boeing would not even be able to put into court. And Brazil would not have a new WTO Case going on either.



1) Boeing doesn't have a big burden of proof in this.

2) There are over 350 sold CSeries on the books plus over 200 options... I don't know how you could say it's not selling. And quite frankly none of Boeing or Airbus or EMBRAER have sold much in the same category EITHER. The MAX7 has sold abysmally poorly with 50, the A319NEO about the same and the E2 190 and 195 combined come in at just over 130... so seems to be selling the best of all EVEN discounting the 75 for Delta?
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:46 pm

northstardc4m wrote:
There are over 350 sold CSeries on the books plus over 200 options... I don't know how you could say it's not selling. And quite frankly none of Boeing or Airbus or EMBRAER have sold much in the same category EITHER. The MAX7 has sold abysmally poorly with 50, the A319NEO about the same and the E2 190 and 195 combined come in at just over 130... so seems to be selling the best of all EVEN discounting the 75 for Delta?


Numbers and facts:
"There are over 350 sold CSeries": not exactly.
Less 40 + 40 options for Republic Airways, less 10 for Odyssey Airlines.
Both orders are on limbo by now.

"the E2 190 and 195 combined come in at just over 130": stands now at 185 firm orders with 445 options, purchase rights and LOI after Paris Air Show.
Source: http://aviationweek.com/awin-only/embra ... ily-orders
Not bad for a program launched in 2013.

The EJets-E2 family is a evolution of the E1 family.
Together both E190-E1 and E195-E1 has so far 764 firm orders with 60 options and still counting.

Altogether E1 + E2 family comprises 949 firm orders plus 505 options, purchase rights and LOI.
 
surfdog75
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:16 pm

It's been covered before but Boeing does not offer a competing product to the 105 seat C Series. It'll be interesting if Boeing wins this if Delta ever places a Boeing order in the future. They do seem to have a very long memory. Supposedly there's a new narrow body order in the works for this Fall.
 
Leslieville
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:07 pm

With airlines wanting to ensure they have fleet and manufacturer options, this could be a Pyrrhic victory for Boeing, should the Commerce Department site with it and impose punitive "anti-dumping" levies. It's also likely that BBD would proceed with a Chapter 11 NAFTA claim should the Commerce Department's ruling violate the trilateral free trade agreement.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:35 pm

Leslieville wrote:
With airlines wanting to ensure they have fleet and manufacturer options, this could be a Pyrrhic victory for Boeing, should the Commerce Department site with it and impose punitive "anti-dumping" levies. It's also likely that BBD would proceed with a Chapter 11 NAFTA claim should the Commerce Department's ruling violate the trilateral free trade agreement.


Be interesting to see how a NAFTA ruling would (i)turn out and (ii)be implemented given The Donald's previous comments on that matter.

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Dash9
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:49 pm

Apparently no decision was released yet by the Commerce dept... but BBD shares suddenly jumped 10% in the last hour.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com//globe- ... ?q=BBD.B-T


Me think someome knows something, somewhere.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:54 pm

Dash9 wrote:
Apparently no decision was released yet by the Commerce dept... but BBD shares suddenly jumped 10% in the last hour.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com//globe- ... ?q=BBD.B-T


Me think someome knows something, somewhere.


This might be why:

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/feeds/canadian-press/business/bombardier-will-win-dispute-with-boeing-eventually-quebec-finance-minister/article36397688/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&

Quebec basically doubling down... and the earlier announcement about talks with 3 major chinese airline groups.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
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ITMercure
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:57 pm

Dash9 wrote:
Apparently no decision was released yet by the Commerce dept... but BBD shares suddenly jumped 10% in the last hour.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com//globe- ... ?q=BBD.B-T


Me think someome knows something, somewhere.


Or... The market is just following a rumour-based trend. With those algorithms (less and less humans) stupidly following - hence amplifying - trends, who knows for sure?
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:52 pm

ITMercure wrote:
Dash9 wrote:
Apparently no decision was released yet by the Commerce dept... but BBD shares suddenly jumped 10% in the last hour.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com//globe- ... ?q=BBD.B-T


Me think someome knows something, somewhere.


Or... The market is just following a rumour-based trend. With those algorithms (less and less humans) stupidly following - hence amplifying - trends, who knows for sure?


I bought a load of stock at a $1 Canadian. It was my play money, it will pay off(it already has). Either A or B will buy up the C-Series or it will be successful for Bombardier. Quebec will not let it fail.

As I have stated many times, this is Boeing forcing the price to get cheap. They have the MOM on their plate that may well cover the top end of the 737 line and this would be cheaper than a clean sheet NSA replacement for the 737 on the lower end. The 300 and 500 would cover that upcoming large single aisle order Delta has been hinting at.

Bombardier gets the money to get sound financials back. They can then get back the RJ and turbo prop business, Quebec gets it's part back with money or the promise of maintaining a product line there so many decades. The US is happy due to the content thats made here and the possibility that the some 300s and the 500s will be produced here. The UK is happy because Ireland will still make parts.

Imagine the sales of the CS100 if it was a Boeing from the get go with it's apparent smooth EIS.

Win-Win for all.
 
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ITMercure
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:26 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
ITMercure wrote:
Dash9 wrote:
Apparently no decision was released yet by the Commerce dept... but BBD shares suddenly jumped 10% in the last hour.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com//globe- ... ?q=BBD.B-T


Me think someome knows something, somewhere.


Or... The market is just following a rumour-based trend. With those algorithms (less and less humans) stupidly following - hence amplifying - trends, who knows for sure?


I bought a load of stock at a $1 Canadian. It was my play money, it will pay off(it already has). Either A or B will buy up the C-Series or it will be successful for Bombardier. Quebec will not let it fail.

As I have stated many times, this is Boeing forcing the price to get cheap. They have the MOM on their plate that may well cover the top end of the 737 line and this would be cheaper than a clean sheet NSA replacement for the 737 on the lower end. The 300 and 500 would cover that upcoming large single aisle order Delta has been hinting at.

Bombardier gets the money to get sound financials back. They can then get back the RJ and turbo prop business, Quebec gets it's part back with money or the promise of maintaining a product line there so many decades. The US is happy due to the content thats made here and the possibility that the some 300s and the 500s will be produced here. The UK is happy because Ireland will still make parts.

Imagine the sales of the CS100 if it was a Boeing from the get go with it's apparent smooth EIS.

Win-Win for all.


Well, this would be obvious market manipulation... Which the the SEC or canadian-like would not agree with me thinks.
Last edited by atcsundevil on Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited on user request
 
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:17 pm

Decision is out, please continue your discussion here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1374959

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