Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:09 pm

anstar wrote:

Well for starters the door is opened more as before the flight crew can come out it has to be opened to let the FA in, then opened to let the flight crew out, then opened again for the flight crew to re enter and then once again for the fa to come out.

So thats 4 times the flight deck door needs to be opened for the flight crew to go to the loo versus 2 previously. So thats double.


Or it could be opened once to let the pilot out and the FA in, closed again, and then opened again to let the FA out and the pilot in. Which is the same number of times it would be opened as before.

thepinkmachine wrote:
Back to my today's flight's observations - when the other guy leaves, I am left alone with the airplane to manage, radio to listen, AND the F/A on the jumpseat talking to me, sometimes at the same time as I am trying to listen/reply to an Indian or Chinese ATC controller on the radio and carry out his instructions. This has happened to me today - twice. Not that tats the F/A's fault - they are not trained in cockpit operations/communications and just don't know any better.


Sounds like a great time to say "sorry, I'd love to talk but I'm a bit busy now, do you mind being quiet for a moment?"

longhauler wrote:
Since the start of jet transport flying, there have only been about a dozen occurrences of suicides by pilots using the aircraft. (I say "about" as there is some question). Of those occurrences, only two happened when the pilot was alone in the cockpit. In other words, having more than one in the cockpit did not help.

However, in the last 20 years there has been about a hundred occurrences where for whatever reason, one of the pilots had to be locked out of the cockpit as his sanity was in question. That is where the problem lies. If one remaining pilot is alone in the cockpit with an F/A, and he turns to her and says "I am concerned about X, and we should lock him out ... she now has to decide who to believe ... the one remaining pilot, or the one on the other side of the door banging to get in. And .. that is NOT within her jurisdiction. Her function is to open the door when commanded. So ... the secure cockpit is no longer secure!


That's a reasonable argument, though I wonder how many of those instances occurred with a two-person-in-cockpit rule. All of the ones that happened in the US certainly did, and the outcome was still a successful one. If the FA thinks something abnormal is going on, they can always open the door and let the other pilot back in.
 
aircatalonia
Posts: 644
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:50 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:23 pm

What about getting rid of the bulletproof doors? Perhaps treating all passengers like suicidal maniacs was the biggest mistake.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:27 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Typical Euro airlines. Cutting safety to save a dollar.

In what way is having a Flight Attendant in the cockpit, or not, affecting the cost of the operation? There are always the same number of Flight Attendants on board.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:42 pm

Planetalk wrote:
santi319 wrote:
The amount of ignorance in this post is CONCERNING.

BTW, if theres a rapid depressurization FA in America are trained on the use of the cockpit masks, you know also in case the other pilot falls uncounscious.

Oh, and they literally have the same background checks as the pilots.

So cut the crap some of you, you just think you are better than other people. Which in 2017 is quite sad.


Please stop taking this personally, no-one has a grudge against FAs. And there are plenty of places FAs most certainly do not have the same background checks as pilots, or have to go throught the same kind of medical checks, those brought in on seasonal contracts for example. The issue is whether this actualy improves safety, not whether someone likes FAs or not. I applaud the industry if once it's doing what rational analysis says is right, rather than what looks good to the uninformed public.


FA is not there to help the solo pilot with flying, person is there in case the solo pilot chokes on food, bumps head and gets knocked out, have a heart attack... million other things.

There are complaints from both sides at airlines with this rule, #1 complaint from FAs is sexual harassment by pilots. Pilots complain about FA's touching the flight controls. But still airlines see value in having second human in the flight deck. There are SOPs to safely enter and exit the flight deck.

We don't know why LH came to this decision, probably too many complaints from both sides or like Varsity1 said to save few Euros.
 
santi319
Posts: 1146
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Mon May 01, 2017 12:06 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
santi319 wrote:
The amount of ignorance in this post is CONCERNING.

BTW, if theres a rapid depressurization FA in America are trained on the use of the cockpit masks, you know also in case the other pilot falls uncounscious.

Oh, and they literally have the same background checks as the pilots.

So cut the crap some of you, you just think you are better than other people. Which in 2017 is quite sad.
p

Please stop taking this personally, no-one has a grudge against FAs. And there are plenty of places FAs most certainly do not have the same background checks as pilots, or have to go throught the same kind of medical checks, those brought in on seasonal contracts for example. The issue is whether this actualy improves safety, not whether someone likes FAs or not. I applaud the industry if once it's doing what rational analysis says is right, rather than what looks good to the uninformed public.


FA is not there to help the solo pilot with flying, person is there in case the solo pilot chokes on food, bumps head and gets knocked out, have a heart attack... million other things.



We don't know why LH came to this decision, probably too many complaints from both sides or like Varsity1 said to save few Euros.



If a FA was in the cockpit during Germanwings accident. It would have never happened. Truth.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Mon May 01, 2017 12:38 am

santi319 wrote:
If a FA was in the cockpit during Germanwings accident. It would have never happened. Truth.

Really? I can think of a lot of methods in which a suicidal pilot can succeed in his mission, even with a Flight Attendant present. Truth.

Don't forget, that with the majority of pilot caused suicidal crashes, the pilot was not alone in the cockpit.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7165
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Mon May 01, 2017 1:13 am

Mr. Lubitz was treated by his private doctor with strong medicine for suicidal tendencies, and he was declared unfit to work.

German medical privacy laws, however, prevented that such information could be shared with the health service of his employee.

It is my guess that German health service laws and procedures have been changed following flight 9525.

I hope so. And that would be the main way to improve safety and avoid any such accidents in the future.

Posters, who feel like it, please continue discussing the merits of always two persons behind the door in the front office. But it's irrelevant. Problem has been solved when people, who have already been declared insane, are prevented from entering the cockpit.
 
anstar
Posts: 3387
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Mon May 01, 2017 6:16 am

Mir wrote:

Or it could be opened once to let the pilot out and the FA in, closed again, and then opened again to let the FA out and the pilot in. Which is the same number of times it would be opened as before.

[.


And that would mean the door being opened for a longer period as people shuffle in and out.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14175
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Mon May 01, 2017 9:51 am

Planetalk wrote:
Why do you always have to be like this? You seem incapable of having a reasoned debate without resorting to insults immediately and casting everything as so black and white?

Will you piss off already? I haven't insulted any person; just a seemingly ridiculous process. Get over it. :roll:


Planetalk wrote:
That maybe it is not incompetence?

Still waiting for an articulated reason as to why, relative to other major carriers who disagree.


santi319 wrote:
Oh, and they literally have the same background checks as the pilots.

Thought so, but direct claims of the opposite... so which is it? Does it vary by airline or by CAA?
 
Planetalk
Posts: 470
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:12 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Mon May 01, 2017 12:35 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
Why do you always have to be like this? You seem incapable of having a reasoned debate without resorting to insults immediately and casting everything as so black and white?

Will you piss off already? I haven't insulted any person; just a seemingly ridiculous process. Get over it. :roll:


Missed your anger management class this week? Well you were pretty insulting to one poster: 'imbecilic comparisons', 'ridiculous question'. Selective memory as usual. What's imbecilic is refusing to engage your brain and consider the arguments and opinions of experts in this field before shooting your mouth of and making wild claims of incompetence. It's no skin off my back but if you want anyone to take you seriously, have a think about your debating technique.

LAX772LR wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
That maybe it is not incompetence?

Still waiting for an articulated reason as to why, relative to other major carriers who disagree.


There are actual pilots telling you this didn't improve safety. Plenty of pilots at US carriers don't like it. Are they incompetent? Maybe they know a thing or two? You also seem to be under the mistaken impression that all major respected carriers adopted this rule, they didn't.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Mon May 01, 2017 1:06 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Thought so, but direct claims of the opposite... so which is it? Does it vary by airline or by CAA?

The holders of a Restricted Area Pass, (or whatever respective governing bodies call it where they are) all have the same background checks regardless of where in the restricted area they are working .... pilots, flight attendants, gate agents, groomers, even the barrista at Starbucks ... all the same.

But that is NOT what we are talking about, as it has nothing to do with medical issues.

What we are talking about is that the greatest advances, enhancing safety with regard to the Germanwings accident have been the way medical issues are handled. Where I fly, pilots have psychological testing yearly, (or twice a year depending on age). Flight Attendants do not. Nor do all the above I mentioned who hold a Restricted Area Pass. Also, as I mentioned previously, in Canada it is LAW that a pilot tell any health care professionsl he meets, that he is a pilot. In return, that health care professional MUST tell Transport Canada if they are aware of any issues which may affect flight safety. It is the law.

As most in this thread who are hands on in the business, we are aware that this is the biggest change, and no .... it does not include Flight Attendants.

Probably the biggest problem with this thread, is that those who are working in this business day to day are restricted on what they can say on social media like this. Myself included, I have gone as far as I am allowed explaining why the two people in the cockpit rule have most certainly not made flying safer, and in a lot of respects it is made it a lot less safe.

In Canada it was a political knee jerk reaction that did not address nor solve the actual problem. Mental Illness. Those problems are now being managed and all of the fears people cite about a pilot being alone in the cockpit have been addressed.
 
Waterbomber
Posts: 849
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Mon May 01, 2017 2:21 pm

If 1 FA in the cockpit is not enough to replace a looing pilot, put 2.
Or is that little effort not worth avoiding 150 dead bodies on the side of a mountain?

People suggesting that the 2-crew policy is unnecessary or a nuisance should be invited to pick up the body parts at the crash site of the next such accident. I talked to a guy from the Alpine rescue who was sent to the Germanwings crash site and he told me that he hadn't slept for months after the crash.

As for pilots' opinion, I don't think that it matters in this instance since you can't be a pilot if you don't have a certain appetite for risk or the more common "it ain't gonna happen to me" attitude.
 
StuckinCMHland
Posts: 239
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:59 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Mon May 01, 2017 2:47 pm

This thread has almost a surreal quality to it. It reads as if some people believe there is some kind of universal principle or truth that LH and other airlines are ignoring so they are unsafe, do not care about safety, or are just out to squeeze a few more dollars or euros from their business. Not every airline, every civil authority, or even individual is going to look at the situation of safety in this instance and come to the same conclusion about what is best. The Germanwings crash was an outlier, an extremely rare event, and trying to develop a rule that applies equally well and equally perfect for all possible contingencies (not just a pilot who wants to kill himself) in the pilot's cabin is impossible. It seems like to some the only good solution is to have a second cockpit that can take over the flight if a pilot in the lead compartment wants to use the bathroom. Give it a rest will you please?
 
Planetalk
Posts: 470
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:12 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Mon May 01, 2017 4:18 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
If 1 FA in the cockpit is not enough to replace a looing pilot, put 2.
Or is that little effort not worth avoiding 150 dead bodies on the side of a mountain?

People suggesting that the 2-crew policy is unnecessary or a nuisance should be invited to pick up the body parts at the crash site of the next such accident. I talked to a guy from the Alpine rescue who was sent to the Germanwings crash site and he told me that he hadn't slept for months after the crash.

As for pilots' opinion, I don't think that it matters in this instance since you can't be a pilot if you don't have a certain appetite for risk or the more common "it ain't gonna happen to me" attitude.


My sympathies for your friend, what a truely awful thing to witness, my full respect to the people who put themselves out there in such situations.

On your point though, I recommend reading the post directly above yours. Things have changed, and although I'm repeating myself, there are numerous ways in which the rule lessened rather than increased saftey. This isn't about saving money (how would it?) or because pilots found it a nuisance, it's the result of analysis of the safety case.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Mon May 01, 2017 4:33 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
People suggesting that the 2-crew policy is unnecessary or a nuisance should be invited to pick up the body parts at the crash site of the next such accident. I talked to a guy from the Alpine rescue who was sent to the Germanwings crash site and he told me that he hadn't slept for months after the crash.

As a holder of a degree in Aeronautical Enginnering in Air Accident Investigation, I have done exactly as that rescuer has done. That is why I am so passionate about air safety.

But if you ever meet that Alpine rescuer again, remind him ... having two, or three or 117 in the cockpit does absolutely nothing to increase air safety and in a lot of cases reduces it. What does increase air safety is reacting to the actual cause, not the perceived or political cause.

As I am sure we have all read on here, that air safety improvements are written in blood. I hate that statement, but often it is true. I can name you a few dozen accidents where flying is safer as a direct cause. One of those is Germanwings.

It is a tragedy that those on board perished. It is a tragedy that the First Officer was in such a mental state that he thought suicide was his only avenue to follow. But like all other accidents, those deaths were not in vain. Flying is safer as a result. A lot of things have changed to make it safer. But having a Flight Attendant in the cockpit was not one of them.
 
Strato2
Posts: 627
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Mon May 01, 2017 4:53 pm

Time to get rid of the other pilot altogether if another Lubitz is now a possibility. One pilot is plenty enough to operate the aircraft. Will save a big penny too.
 
DCAfan
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:22 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Mon May 01, 2017 6:26 pm

Pilots can get professional coaching to help pass psychological tests. No system is infallible, including the two person in cockpit requirement, which is why using multiple approaches has merit.
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2384
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Mon May 01, 2017 6:31 pm

AirKevin wrote:
Aptivaboy wrote:
Here in the States, train engineers must press a deadman's switch, usually once every 30 to 60 seconds to tell the onboard systems that they're wide awake and functional. If the switch does not get pressed, a variety of things can happen. A buzzer or alarm (think stick shaker here) will sound in an attempt to remind the engineer to press the switch. A signal is going to be sent to the dispatch office alerting the railroad's train controllers to a potentially sleeping or incapacitated engineer, and the train engine's own systems will eventually brake and stop the train.

I thought they did away with the deadman's switch after the Hinton train crash. If I remember from that one, the engineer had to keep his foot on the deadman's switch, and on long trips, engineers were just throwing heavy objects onto the switch, fooling it into thinking that the engineer had his foot on it. I think now, they use an alerter that sounds every so often, and if the engineer doesn't silence it, the train comes to a stop.


The foot pedals are no longer allowed. The alerter system is exactly as you describe, and is typically a large red pushbutton you push to reset/silence the alarm (until it goes off again). the alerter automatically resets (and keeps resetting) when any control is moved ...

e.g., if you're jockeying with the throttle and brake, the alerter won't go off. It's only when there's no controls movement for X seconds, that it sounds.
 
Waterbomber
Posts: 849
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Mon May 01, 2017 6:42 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Time to get rid of the other pilot altogether if another Lubitz is now a possibility. One pilot is plenty enough to operate the aircraft. Will save a big penny too.


Does that solve the problem or actually make it worse?
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14175
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Mon May 01, 2017 10:21 pm

Planetalk wrote:
Missed your anger management class this week? Well you were pretty insulting to one poster: 'imbecilic comparisons', 'ridiculous question'. Selective memory as usual.

You're even weaker than I took you for if THAT'S your idea of "insulting." :roll:


Planetalk wrote:
What's imbecilic is refusing to engage your brain and consider the arguments and opinions of experts in this field

Which others of equal and/or greater stature disagree with. But that part appears to have escaped your notice.

Sorta like below:
Planetalk wrote:
There are actual pilots telling you this didn't improve safety. Plenty of pilots at US carriers don't like it.

And there are those who disagree and don't. Who's to say their opinion shouldn't carry greater weight, and why?


Planetalk wrote:
You also seem to be under the mistaken impression that all major respected carriers adopted this rule, they didn't.

Nah, just another piss-poor conclusion on your part.


Waterbomber wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
Time to get rid of the other pilot altogether if another Lubitz is now a possibility. One pilot is plenty enough to operate the aircraft. Will save a big penny too.

Does that solve the problem or actually make it worse?
[/quote]
Was thinking the same
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5697
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Mon May 01, 2017 10:29 pm

cesar666cu wrote:
Aptivaboy wrote:
Where is the problem ?
There is only 1 pilot in each trains... Nobody ever complained about him being alone for the ride.
Now the difference between the train pilot and the airplane pilot is the kind of stress.


Respectfully, there are many differences. Here in the States, train engineers must press a deadman's switch, usually once every 30 to 60 seconds to tell the onboard systems that they're wide awake and functional. If the switch does not get pressed, a variety of things can happen. A buzzer or alarm (think stick shaker here) will sound in an attempt to remind the engineer to press the switch. A signal is going to be sent to the dispatch office alerting the railroad's train controllers to a potentially sleeping or incapacitated engineer, and the train engine's own systems will eventually brake and stop the train. This is just a very brief and cursory synopsis and various railroads will have slightly different procedures congruent with federal law to suit their individual needs, but that's eventually what will occur. The aim here is safety, making sure that the engineer is wide awake and functioning properly. Modern airliners obviously don't have deadman switches like that of trains because you can't just shut down the plane at 30000 feet plus!

Now, how does this relate to the Germanwings crash? Well, what happens if the single pilot in the cockpit suffers from hypoxia, or has a heart attack, or is incapacitated for any reason? How will the pilot using the lav get back inside the cockpit? What if the pilot flying isn't incapacitated but too busy trying to handle an emergency and can't get to the door to open it? The pilot outside is still unable to enter the cockpit and help

As a passenger, I'm not in favor of this rule change. Somewhere down the line the law of averages will catch up with those using the one man in the cockpit rule. In the past year or so, we've seen pilot sadly pass in flight or have heart attacks and become incapacitated, for example. It will happen again. That's just reality. That's life. That's simple statistics. I simply hope and pray that it doesn't happen when the victim is locked behind a secured cockpit door.


There is a protection for an incapacitated pilots while the other one is in the toilet.
The cockpit access door is code protected. If a code is entered an alarm ring in the cockpit and the inside pilot has 3 options.
* Accept the door opening and unlock the door
* Reject the door opening and keep it lock. Then the code cannot be entered for a period of time, and nobody can access the cockpit from outside during that time.
* If no actions accept or reject, the door will automatically open in 30sec.
In the case of Germanwings, the inside pilot rejected the access and committed his action.

The train engineer, is indeed protected against incapacitation, but i am pretty sure he can commit suicide by going too fast or by doing other crazy stuff (maybe not on the recent trains if there is some kind of protections).
Same story goes with the bus drivers, nobody ever complained being alone.

Maybe on modern jets. Older turboprops certainly don't have that.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14753
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Mon May 01, 2017 11:58 pm

Tugger wrote:
It is obvious that there is now a way to access the cockpit, open the door, from outside the cockpit.

It is that simple.

Tugg


My thoughts exactly.
 
Planetalk
Posts: 470
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:12 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Tue May 02, 2017 1:23 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
Missed your anger management class this week? Well you were pretty insulting to one poster: 'imbecilic comparisons', 'ridiculous question'. Selective memory as usual.

You're even weaker than I took you for if THAT'S your idea of "insulting." :roll:


Think what you like, I don't feel the need to act the tough guy on an annoymous internet forum. I just think it lowers the tone of the board, and quality of the discussion. I'm willing to bet you don't speak to people like that in real life.


LAX772LR wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
What's imbecilic is refusing to engage your brain and consider the arguments and opinions of experts in this field

Which others of equal and/or greater stature disagree with. But that part appears to have escaped your notice.

Sorta like below:
Planetalk wrote:
There are actual pilots telling you this didn't improve safety. Plenty of pilots at US carriers don't like it.

And there are those who disagree and don't. Who's to say their opinion shouldn't carry greater weight, and why?


Yeh, I accept there are reasonable arguments on both sides and really it's a bit of a toss up, but on various forums I've seen more pilots say that on balance e They don't think this rule helped. My issue is the way you characterise well founded arguments, that come from knowledgeable, competent people, if you don't agree with them. Do you dismiss Longhauler's position as imbecilic or is your mind opened to the idea there may be genuine reasons for this?


LAX772LR wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
You also seem to be under the mistaken impression that all major respected carriers adopted this rule, they didn't.

Nah, just another piss-poor conclusion on your part.


Good, pleased to hear it, so you do acknowledge it's not just incompetent airlines that have come to the conclusion this was unnecessary.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14175
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Tue May 02, 2017 2:26 am

Planetalk wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
There are actual pilots telling you this didn't improve safety. Plenty of pilots at US carriers don't like it.

And there are those who disagree and don't. Who's to say their opinion shouldn't carry greater weight, and why?

Yeh, I accept there are reasonable arguments on both sides and really it's a bit of a toss up, but on various forums I've seen more pilots say that on balance e They don't think this rule helped.

No doubt, but drawing a conclusion based on the number of pilots emoting on airline fora, is anecdotal at best.




Planetalk wrote:
My issue is . . .

I can go ahead stop you right there, to save time:
No one cares.

If you're bothered that badly, then have enough sense to use the block feature. If not, then please stop being so creepy and get over it. It's weird how you're still obsessing over this.
 
User avatar
XLA2008
Posts: 440
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:53 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Tue May 02, 2017 2:29 am

I find this odd... every airline I've ever flown for has always required two people in the flight deck at all times, so if one of the flight crew needs a rest break or to stretch their legs then another crew member must enter the flight and stay until the flight crew member returns, and this was the rule years before the Germanwings incident! It was more for if the flight crew member who remained in the flight deck became sick or unconscious someone was their to deal with the situation and get the flight deck door open ASAP because waiting for the emergency code to access the flight deck to unlock the door can feel like a long time and that time could be serious time needed to gain control of the situation again!! It's not like it costs anything for this safety procedure to be in place, it ensures security of the flight deck and safety of the aircraft, it's silly that Lufthansa would drop this regulation! And just to add to that I've flown for many airlines all over the world! And it's been the same procedure for all of them!
 
Topguncanada
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:44 am

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Tue May 02, 2017 5:28 am

XLA2008 wrote:
I find this odd... every airline I've ever flown for has always required two people in the flight deck at all times, so if one of the flight crew needs a rest break or to stretch their legs then another crew member must enter the flight and stay until the flight crew member returns, and this was the rule years before the Germanwings incident!


What airlines are you referring to if I may ask? I had never heard or experienced this prior or the GermanWings occurrence.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Tue May 02, 2017 10:50 am

XLA2008 wrote:
... it's silly that Lufthansa would drop this regulation!...


If you are thinking about GermanWings accident, the way aviation safety reporting is structured, officially Lufthansa has nothing do with it. It will be reported under GermanWings AOC which is defunct now. Only for PR purposes it is related to LH.
 
User avatar
fortytwoeyes
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:56 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Tue May 02, 2017 10:53 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
It will be reported under GermanWings AOC which is defunct now.

It isn't. Eurowings wet leases Germanwings planes.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Tue May 02, 2017 10:59 am

fortytwoeyes wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
It will be reported under GermanWings AOC which is defunct now.

It isn't. Eurowings wet leases Germanwings planes.


Eurowings may be wet leasing from Germanwings, but the safety record of Lufthansa and Eurowings is clean, even though the accident was within the group. The game of aviation safety reporting.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Tue May 02, 2017 11:21 am

Surely the simple solution (to Germanwings problem) is that both pilots carry keys to access the flightdeck on their person at all times.
 
User avatar
glen
Posts: 364
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:43 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Tue May 02, 2017 11:32 am

Amiga500 wrote:
Surely the simple solution (to Germanwings problem) is that both pilots carry keys to access the flightdeck on their person at all times.

Ah yes? But that only solves the "Germanwings" problem.
But then we can leave the door open anyway, as a hijacker only has to hijack one of the pilots once he's outside the cockpit and then he has a key for access.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 3041
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Tue May 02, 2017 11:38 am

Cory6188 wrote:
I'm surprised - it's hardly a big imposition on the crew, workload-wise, and US carriers have been doing it as standard practice for years.


...and Canadian carriers too.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Tue May 02, 2017 12:00 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Cory6188 wrote:
I'm surprised - it's hardly a big imposition on the crew, workload-wise, and US carriers have been doing it as standard practice for years.


...and Canadian carriers too.

It only became law in Canada after Germanwings.

Up to the point of law, most Canadian carriers did not have two people in the cockpit at all time. It is still law and until that changes, the law will be respected.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 3041
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Tue May 02, 2017 12:15 pm

longhauler wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
Cory6188 wrote:
I'm surprised - it's hardly a big imposition on the crew, workload-wise, and US carriers have been doing it as standard practice for years.


...and Canadian carriers too.

It only became law in Canada after Germanwings.

Up to the point of law, most Canadian carriers did not have two people in the cockpit at all time. It is still law and until that changes, the law will be respected.


That is correct, but the poster above said 'standard practice'. At the two Canadian carriers I've worked at it was standard practice even before the regulation was introduced.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Tue May 02, 2017 2:12 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
That is correct, but the poster above said 'standard practice'. At the two Canadian carriers I've worked at it was standard practice even before the regulation was introduced.

Interesting. The three Canadian carriers at which I have worked ... it was not.

The only time it was practised when it was not law was immediately after September 11, as the quickly fashioned "bars" could not be opened from the outside thus two had to be in the cockpit. Once, they were replaced with the current doors, things went back to normal until this law was enacted.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Tue May 02, 2017 2:45 pm

glen wrote:
But then we can leave the door open anyway, as a hijacker only has to hijack one of the pilots once he's outside the cockpit and then he has a key for access.


Ah yes, as **possible** **random** access to a pilot will put hijack likelihoods through the roof.
 
User avatar
TheLark
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Tue May 02, 2017 2:56 pm

In risk management, whenever some measure is undertaken to mitigate a known risk, you have to ask: (1) Does this measure introduce new risks? (2) Does it influence the assessment (probability, gravity) of other known risks?

In this case, we are dealing with very rare events. This means that (1) the uncertainties of the probabilities are high, and (2) the effect of any measure on other risks is, comparatively, very large. Overall, it is very likely that risk analysis gives no clear picture whether the two-person rule increases safety or not. So it is entirely possible that competent risk management professionals come to different conclusions.
 
Planetalk
Posts: 470
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:12 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Tue May 02, 2017 4:17 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
glen wrote:
But then we can leave the door open anyway, as a hijacker only has to hijack one of the pilots once he's outside the cockpit and then he has a key for access.


Ah yes, as **possible** **random** access to a pilot will put hijack likelihoods through the roof.


It makes it vastly easier, hence why this isn't the system. On long flights you will be guaranteed the pilots are going to leave the cockpit at some point. On short ones they often do. Unless you trap the pilots prisoner in the cockpit (in which case the key becomes redundant anyway) this can't work. Having someone with a key outside the door is essentially the same as having no lock.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 3041
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Tue May 02, 2017 4:34 pm

longhauler wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
That is correct, but the poster above said 'standard practice'. At the two Canadian carriers I've worked at it was standard practice even before the regulation was introduced.

Interesting. The three Canadian carriers at which I have worked ... it was not.

The only time it was practised when it was not law was immediately after September 11, as the quickly fashioned "bars" could not be opened from the outside thus two had to be in the cockpit. Once, they were replaced with the current doors, things went back to normal until this law was enacted.


You know I had never thought of Sept. 11 as the reason for that, but that policy continued long after 2001 where I was. The reason I was given is if one pilots goes to the washroom/is not on the flight deck for whatever reason and the second pilot becomes incapacitated, there's someone there to ensure that the missing pilot can get back quickly while ensuring the continued safe operation of the aircraft (i.e. can open the flight deck door). The thought of Germanwings happening wasn't even a concept even in a post Sept. 11th world.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Tue May 02, 2017 5:58 pm

Planetalk wrote:
It makes it vastly easier, hence why this isn't the system.


Its already stupidly easy to take down a plane anyway - most of the security stuff is just for show and to catch the dimwits.

Anyone competent that was of a mind to do it could do it. It'd be only marginally harder to hijack one too.



Edit: Just thought of the best system. Move the pilots door hinge back a bit, change the front lav door wall so it runs toward the centreline as you move forward with a jut out at the aft end. The pilots door therefore has 3 positions, (1) fully shut, (2) fully open & (3) latched halfway through its swing on the lav wall.

Give the pilots CCTV of the front galley/lav area and a "lav engaged" light and they can see when its empty with no queue, open their door to position 3 and use the lav (bit of a squeeze through) - without ever being accessible to the passengers.
 
Blotto
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:00 am

Re: German airlines drop safety rule prompted by Germanwings crash

Tue May 02, 2017 6:18 pm

I'm glad this rule is gone.
Did it bring any benefit? I'd say yes. In case of mentally unstable person another person in the same room can avoid something like we've seen with the Germanwings crash. Will a FA be able to ultimately stop a trained pilot from crashing an airplane? Of course not. Another aspect is that a second person can open the door if needed. This avoids a situation were there is one incapacipated pilot alone in the cockpit and the emergency function of door is INOP (or the time required to open the door could've been used to avoid a crash). Both scenarios are however pretty remote.
Did the rule introduce new risks? Yes, it did. The door is open more often and longer which makes the cockpit less safe.
If I add all effects, the rule makes flying unsafer. That's my personal opinion and what every expert I talked to said. That's why it's good to abolish it.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos