crAAzy
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:27 am

Honestly who even cares anymore. Unless you're an ultra uber elite, none of the airlines really care about their passengers at this point. Even EXPs are meaningless to AA now a days - I get all the pampering I need paying $400 a year for an Admirals Club membership (still less than the price of a one way F ticket) .
Despite having the income, I can't even imagine why on earth anyone would actually pay for an F ticket on a continental domestic flight. The seats are uncomfortable, the food is awful (when you even get a meal), and the service is often lacking. I have to take 800 mg of ibuprofen before I even board the plane when I'm stuck flying in AA F on their new planes.
Frequent flyer programs mean nothing any more to the people that actually fly because they are just as happy, or at least a heck of a lot more comfortable racking up hundreds of thousand of miles on their credit cards every year.
Moves such as these should come as no surprise - AA's 738max had the potential to be the best domestic plane flying around the country when it was first purchased. It has now turned it into a flying greyhound bus. Anyone with an inkling of knowledge about the industry and any common sense will realize they're going to have a better experience, spend less money, and more likely to arrive on time to their destination if they drive in their 2 door speck or choose another airline.
In the end I guess between cramming more seats into it's planes and the new larger aircraft deferrals we at least have some idea of how AA is going to cover the new employee raises until contracts are up for negotiation in 2019/2020. There's a reason the A350s were deferred until 2020 folks. By then oil prices will be back up well over $100 a barrel and the airline will be brought to it's knees when they can't afford the current contracts let alone any expected increases. I'm all for sharing the wealth and happy employees because in the end maybe they'll be more willing to put up with all the crap they are going to get from pissed off and cranky passengers over the next few years.
 
dashdrvr
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:40 am

EA CO AS wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Jo8338 wrote:
Unbelievable....... another step in the race to the bottom.

This is basically a war on elites making it harder to get upgraded.


That too, but it is primarily a war on the traveling public. Not just a class thing. Bottom line is king and the customer be damned.

Too bad it's not just an AA thing.


It's hardly a war on the traveling public; it's giving them exactly what they want - low fares, high frequency.

The public has been voting with their wallets since 1978, so we've had nearly 40 years of consumer behavior that has shaped the market accordingly.


This is most lucid comment I have read on this thread. Airlines are just giving the people what they want to pay for. However I do get tired of hearing those same consumers complain about the product they asked for.
 
Andy33
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:43 am

So how many passengers is the 737MAX8 actually certified for in all-Y config? As far as I know a 737-800 can go up to 189, and routinely does in Europe for LCC and charter operators, and an A320 takes 186.
The 737MAX200 is just different enough from a regular 737MAX8 to be only possible as a factory-built option, am I correct?
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:28 am

crAAzy wrote:
oil prices will be back up well over $100 a barrel and the airline will be brought to it's knees


I can't say I agree; now that non-traditional methods of production have become profitable at the $50/bbl price point, you will see domestic production skyrocket, while OPEC continues to fight to maintain market share via increasing their output as well, trying to drive domestic producers out of the market. And those tapped wells are easily turned on or off depending on the market.

Bottom line, the days of $100/bbl oil are long gone, barring any unforeseen armed conflict that puts a big strain on production or refining capacity.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
TheGeordielad
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:33 am

INFINITI329 wrote:
sagechan wrote:
Taking an already uncomfortable plane and making it more uncomfortable. At least the MAXs wont have IFE boxes under the seat. Almost certainly F would go down to 12 for this.

So post MD80s:
E175/crj900 - 76 seats
A319 - 128
A320 - 150
738s - 174
32B - 181
321 - 187

Assuming the A321s eventually standardize. There is still a huge gap between the large regionals and smallest mainline.


This is why I don't understand why AA doesn't think they need a 100 seater.

They do have E-190s which about 100 or may be 99.
 
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scbriml
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:26 am

9w748capt wrote:
Jesus is this for real? Holy hell. Upgrades are hard enough as it is even with 16F - I find it hard to believe AA isn't selling a good chunk of those these days. Where the hell did the poster above come up with only 3% of F seats are sold? That is total and utter BS. 3% - hahahah that means less than 1 seat per 737 flight is actually sold - LMAO - not true.


Rather than just complaining about another member's figures, you could have provided some factual basis to refute his claim. But you didn't. If his post was "BS", what does that make yours?
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sagechan
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:32 am

TheGeordielad wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
sagechan wrote:
Taking an already uncomfortable plane and making it more uncomfortable. At least the MAXs wont have IFE boxes under the seat. Almost certainly F would go down to 12 for this.

So post MD80s:
E175/crj900 - 76 seats
A319 - 128
A320 - 150
738s - 174
32B - 181
321 - 187

Assuming the A321s eventually standardize. There is still a huge gap between the large regionals and smallest mainline.


This is why I don't understand why AA doesn't think they need a 100 seater.

They do have E-190s which about 100 or may be 99.


That's true they have 20 @ 99seats, but have announced they will be following the Md80s out the door, forgot to list then either way though!
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LAX772LR
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:34 am

cheapgreek wrote:
Remember AA's MRTC or "More Room Throughout Coach"? Those days are but a pleasant memory.

Wasn't pleasant for the airline... they lost their shirts during that.

It was essentially the death-knell of comfort in standard coach, as it forever proved that the majority will not pay more for extra comfort. For the comparative few that will, Y+ and PE are now offered.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
cheapgreek
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:22 am

LAX772LR wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:
Remember AA's MRTC or "More Room Throughout Coach"? Those days are but a pleasant memory.

Wasn't pleasant for the airline... they lost their shirts during that.

It was essentially the death-knell of comfort in standard coach, as it forever proved that the majority will not pay more for extra comfort. For the comparative few that will, Y+ and PE are now offered.


Airlines are cyclical businesses and during that time other airlines lost money.also.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:01 am

scbriml wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
Jesus is this for real? Holy hell. Upgrades are hard enough as it is even with 16F - I find it hard to believe AA isn't selling a good chunk of those these days. Where the hell did the poster above come up with only 3% of F seats are sold? That is total and utter BS. 3% - hahahah that means less than 1 seat per 737 flight is actually sold - LMAO - not true.


Rather than just complaining about another member's figures, you could have provided some factual basis to refute his claim. But you didn't. If his post was "BS", what does that make yours?


Well, Delta said it was selling 57% of its first and business class seats last year, with a goal of selling 70%. The link below cites Hauenstein for those figures.

https://skift.com/2016/03/04/delta-to-c ... es-harder/

When Delta started bragging, IIRC, United said that it was selling ~45% of its premium cabin seats but I can't find a reference for it - and I'm not going to comb earnings call transcripts.

Just 3% for AA sounds really, really improbable to me - even if you argued that domestic sell rates are lower than international.
 
tphuang
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:31 am

Okcflyer wrote:
AA's 738s (and -8s) will seat 8 more than United's slimline edition. United uses a 16J front cabin with a decent-sized Economy Plus cabin.

Assuming AA keeps the same A321 cabin on the neo, looks like the -8 Max will have a lower CASM compared to the 321neo, and certainly so below 2000nm. The A321 will <should> generate a slightly higher RASM from the larger front and MCE cabins.

For those that tend to lump the 738 and A320 in the "same size" bracket, this is one example that demostrates the 738 capacity is actually quite a bit larger (at least two rows physically). Reality is, it's about halfway sized between A320 and A321. I think this is one reason so many Airbus operators are going A321neo on this buying cycle, the A320 is just a little too small for economical optimum.

Interestingly enough, the new AA configuration is likely to be more roomy then legacy European carriers with their slimline, packed out stuffing of 180pax in the A320 (different J class offsets slightly)

A320 still has wider seats than 738, which makes it easier to tolerate the less leg room. I know the Boeing fans keep telling me there is no difference, but I feel it every time I fly on a 738, even when I get those economy plus seats. And the difference between a 738 seat and E90 seat for a 4 hour or under flight is humongous.

AA will not keep A321 the same, it will install the same slimline seats and squeeze passengers even more. That's what Doug Parker and his crew have been doing for a while now

Well, Delta said it was selling 57% of its first and business class seats last year, with a goal of selling 70%. The link below cites Hauenstein for those figures.

https://skift.com/2016/03/04/delta-to-c ... es-harder/

When Delta started bragging, IIRC, United said that it was selling ~45% of its premium cabin seats but I can't find a reference for it - and I'm not going to comb earnings call transcripts.

Just 3% for AA sounds really, really improbable to me - even if you argued that domestic sell rates are lower than international.

Delta is notorious for selling more of their domestic first class seats at $100 more than the economy seats. The upgrades are completely non-existent. Their award chart is horrible. AA has been selling more of their first class seats from what I can see, but there is still a real price difference. I don't know why people are paying 3 or 4 times more for a non A321T first class seat, but that's just me. I think AA has caught on that too many EXP members are just getting free upgrades all day long and they need to remove FC inventory. They have already gone through one of the large devaluations in the frequent flyer program, I guess it's not close to finishing.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:11 pm

727200 wrote:
Only about 3% of passengers actually pay for F-class. Means 97% are looking for some type of free UG.

I'm sorry, but unless you can provide us with proof, I am calling BS on that "fact" of yours.
 
commavia
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:33 pm

I have no idea if that's true, but it definitely sounds tight. Doesn't sound like a very fun ride in non-MCE Y, although I'll say this, if this is true, the overall economics of a 737MAX combined with that dense a cabin is going to be a profit machine - assuming AA can consistently fill it without depressing yields. I suspect a 174-seat 737MAX would set a new precedent for mainline network carrier narrowbody economics in the U.S.

Jo8338 wrote:
Unbelievable....... another step in the race to the bottom.


As said - airlines are not charities, but rather businesses, and they ultimately only exist for one reason and that is to create value for owners. In this context, airlines are indeed in a relentless race - to give customers what they want. Consumers have clearly and consistently demonstrated that they prefer lower prices. The easiest (and, over the long-run, only) way to delivery lower prices while also creating value for owners is to lower costs. And that's where cabin density comes in.

So put another way, airlines will keep pushing until consumers push back and say "enough." But saying "enough" doesn't mean complaining on message boards or blogs. It means booking away. The second AA puts a hypothetical 174-seat 737MAX on DFW-LGA and the plane starts going out empty (or, more accurately, full of nonrevs just happy to get on) as paying passengers consciously book other flights and/or other airlines, AA will rip those extra rows of seats out just as fast as they put them in. But it will take consumers changing their behavior, rather than just their words. We'll see.

Jo8338 wrote:
This is basically a war on elites making it harder to get upgraded.


If one can even all it a "war," it's a war the elites frankly lost a long time ago - and now conditions on the "battlefield" are just catching up to that reality. With the steady devaluations of frequent flyer programs - arguably made first at Delta, and then followed by AA and United - it seem that the network airlines concluded that the economic paradigm of the frequent flyer programs, and their elite programs in particular, was no longer working. The economic contribution was no longer enough to justify the cost. As already mentioned - Delta has reduced upgrades through aggressive upselling. It appears AA is (generally) taking the tack of simply shrinking F.

USAirALB wrote:
I'm willing to bet that IFE will be ripped out as the aircraft go in for modifications as well.


I agree - I've also been predicting that for months. And I can completely see why. In 2017, with how rapidly wifi technology is advancing, I don't think the revenue and yield benefits are worth the direct and indirect costs of installation, maintenance and weight/fuel. I was on a PMUS aircraft - so obviously no PTVs - a few weeks back and used the free entertainment screening through the AA app and I must admit - the quality and reliability of the streaming was impressive. For economic reasons alone, I think that type of system - vastly improved with satellite-based wifi vs the ground-based system I experienced on that PMUS aircraft - is clearly the future on domestic narrowbodies.
 
A388
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:02 pm

USAirALB, as far as I know it was already announced some time ago that the IFE will be removed from the entire narrowbody fleet.

A388
 
commavia
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:21 pm

A388 wrote:
USAirALB, as far as I know it was already announced some time ago that the IFE will be removed from the entire narrowbody fleet.


I don't believe that AA has ever announced that. AA has publicly confirmed that all future narrowbody deliveries beginning with the 737MAX will have wifi-based IFE rather than AVOD PTVs. I believe the other poster's comment was related to removing AVOD PTVs from the narrowbody aircraft that already have it.

As said, given the economic and technology dynamics, it would not surprise me at all if AA ultimately did, indeed, move to all wifi-based IFE for just about all domestic narrowbodies, with AVOD PTVs in use going forward only on widebodies and the A321T.
 
cschleic
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:42 pm

DDR wrote:
wenders825 wrote:
DDR wrote:

Sitting in F is not a right. Good grief.

this. just like award space

if people are willing to pay why should the airline give it out for free? they are a business


Exactly! F fares are lower than they used to be, but still enough to make a premium for the airline. More people are willing to pay for F than in previous years. No reason the airlines shouldn't sell every F seat that they can. It's not just AA, every airline in the U.S. is doing this. BTW, when I fly on my own dime, I buy a Y ticket. Kudos to those who can afford to fly in F, I certainly don't hold a grudge against them. They help make my airline profitable. Airlines aren't a charity.


We get your point. What's particularly frustrating is full fare Y prices and the same amount of space as a cheap, plan-ahead ticket. Yes, they have some sort of "premium" economy, but not always available.
 
michman
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:43 pm

9w748capt wrote:
Jesus is this for real? Holy hell. Upgrades are hard enough as it is even with 16F - I find it hard to believe AA isn't selling a good chunk of those these days. Where the hell did the poster above come up with only 3% of F seats are sold? That is total and utter BS. 3% - hahahah that means less than 1 seat per 737 flight is actually sold - LMAO - not true.


OP said 3% of passengers which works out to about 25% - 30% of F seats being sold vs. upgrades. DL reported selling 57% of their F seats in a recent report.
 
jayunited
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:48 pm

Taco2sDay wrote:
The USAir/Parkerization continues!

UA is in the toilet and DL is bumping toilet passengers! Damn, the US3 suck and it keeps getting worse! And the airlines don't understand why they are hated. Sure, they have a fiduciary duty to the stock holders, but the management is so incompetent! Doesn't say much for the stockholders hat keep re-electing these assholes. Another reason not to buy airline stocks!


As uncomfortable as those seats will be I don't think it is totally fair to place all the blame on the US3. Consumers here in the US have plenty of airlines to choose from and vote with their wallets. Everybody keeps complaining that airlines are horrible the seat pitch sucks, its a war on elites then why are more passenger buying the cheapest ticket they can find and not a first class ticket or a E+ ticket. Every one wants more room throughout coach but no one wants to pay for it. When American was offering more room throughout coach people were not buying it instead they choose to fly on LCC's. So to compete with the LCC's here in the US the US3 responded by taking a look at their LCC competitors and alining their product to match what consumers were buying. Another example of the US3 responding to market demands is all three airlines now have some form of basis economy this is a direct response to consumer buying habits. If consumers want more room throughout coach then they are going to have to pay for it, however right now passengers want more room but they want to pay Spirit Airlines prices. If you want to pay Spirit Airline prices then you are going to get the same leg room and service Spirit Airlines offers you can't have it both ways you can't buy the cheapest ticket and expect 35 - 37 inch seat pitch, the airlines would loose millions of dollars.

Most people today have no idea what the real cost of air travel should be. What people want is a cheap ticket to get them from point A to point B, so if you want cheap tickets the airlines have to cram more seats on the aircraft. Consumers have a choice to make so stop complaining and either buy a first class or E+ seat or enjoy your cheap ticket with 30-31 inch seat pitch it is unfortunate but those are your choices. Even JetBlue is adding seat on their aircraft so airlines and stockholders are not the only ones to blame a significant portion of the blame falls on the consumer who continually demand cheaper fares.
 
sagechan
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:11 pm

I find it odd to demonize a company or industry that's historically unprofitable but essential, a d currently runs operating margins in the single digits, for making tough but rational choices to improve those numbers. The two things mainly complained of in this thread, densification and elite devaluement both make sense. Densification makes sense because all the data indicates that despite whining about it, people will pay to fly in ulcc type Y seats, and there isn't enough of a premium for "better" Y spacing. It's also apparent that the US3 felt that the airline was no longer receiving economic value from the design of the loyalty programs so they changed them. At the very least both are rational economic decisions.
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ILUVDC10S
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:18 pm

Now if Airlines want to sell more seats up front LOWER the fricken price! You are pricing yourself out of fricken business by raising prices and fees- Thing is You the Airline executive is listening to the wrong group and that is people that do not have skin in the game the wall street folks. Wall Street sure may be passengers on your planes sure I get that however they are not the one who is paying for the airline to get profits . Clue it is the passenger and cargo customers who are paying the fares to give you the profits! It should be US Passengers who you listen to not them! We are the ones who are direct affected by your ill advised decisions ! When will you ever listen to the passengers huh ? When has it been that airlines did town halls-focus groups with all groups of passengers the million milers the CIP's VIP's & first class passengers & the leisure traveler huh ? I hold top tier elite status with a airline that I will name nameless and YET be called or asked for my opinions.
Also its time to stop listening to overpaid consultants who come in and steer you wrong .
By the way If Spirit Airlines jumped off a cliff would you follow them American or Delta or United ? well ? I hope you all have more sense than that !
Because one airline does something does that mean that you have to follow ????
Oh and stop blaming the low fare paying passenger for your ills when I have exposed the excessive expenses self inflicted by you airlines cut your expenses first before you come to us . It will fall on deaf ears until you clean your own house first . Stop crying wolf and fire!
You get no sympathy from me .
 
Cubsrule
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:19 pm

jayunited wrote:
Taco2sDay wrote:
The USAir/Parkerization continues!

UA is in the toilet and DL is bumping toilet passengers! Damn, the US3 suck and it keeps getting worse! And the airlines don't understand why they are hated. Sure, they have a fiduciary duty to the stock holders, but the management is so incompetent! Doesn't say much for the stockholders hat keep re-electing these assholes. Another reason not to buy airline stocks!


As uncomfortable as those seats will be I don't think it is totally fair to place all the blame on the US3. Consumers here in the US have plenty of airlines to choose from and vote with their wallets. Everybody keeps complaining that airlines are horrible the seat pitch sucks, its a war on elites then why are more passenger buying the cheapest ticket they can find and not a first class ticket or a E+ ticket. Every one wants more room throughout coach but no one wants to pay for it. When American was offering more room throughout coach people were not buying it instead they choose to fly on LCC's. So to compete with the LCC's here in the US the US3 responded by taking a look at their LCC competitors and alining their product to match what consumers were buying. Another example of the US3 responding to market demands is all three airlines now have some form of basis economy this is a direct response to consumer buying habits. If consumers want more room throughout coach then they are going to have to pay for it, however right now passengers want more room but they want to pay Spirit Airlines prices. If you want to pay Spirit Airline prices then you are going to get the same leg room and service Spirit Airlines offers you can't have it both ways you can't buy the cheapest ticket and expect 35 - 37 inch seat pitch, the airlines would loose millions of dollars.

Most people today have no idea what the real cost of air travel should be. What people want is a cheap ticket to get them from point A to point B, so if you want cheap tickets the airlines have to cram more seats on the aircraft. Consumers have a choice to make so stop complaining and either buy a first class or E+ seat or enjoy your cheap ticket with 30-31 inch seat pitch it is unfortunate but those are your choices. Even JetBlue is adding seat on their aircraft so airlines and stockholders are not the only ones to blame a significant portion of the blame falls on the consumer who continually demand cheaper fares.


The trouble with this view, I think, is that "consumers" are not a monolithic group, and the mythical "pay more to get more" product sometimes does not exist.

I buy a lot of refundable tickets 7-10 days out. Frequently the Y+ product is competitively priced but all that is available are middles. So, my choices are paying X for 27C or paying X+50 for a middle with more legroom and maybe a snack or drink and better overhead space.

Neither of those is the product I want, and neither of those is the product that you and others on this thread seem to have identified as the better product that passengers will not buy.

Heck, in that time period AA often wants me to pay for ANY assigned seat. That's a revenue management fail IMO.
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EK413
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:23 pm

QF have also increased capacity on their B738 fleet. The old confirgure was 12J156Y & new J12Y162 which was accomplished reducing the size of the aft lavatories.

EK413
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commavia
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:24 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
The trouble with this view, I think, is that "consumers" are not a monolithic group, and the mythical "pay more to get more" product sometimes does not exist.

I buy a lot of refundable tickets 7-10 days out. Frequently the Y+ product is competitively priced but all that is available are middles. So, my choices are paying X for 27C or paying X+50 for a middle with more legroom and maybe a snack or drink and better overhead space.

Neither of those is the product I want, and neither of those is the product that you and others on this thread seem to have identified as the better product that passengers will not buy.


Customers aren't guaranteed that there will necessarily always be availability of the product they want at a price they're willing to accept. That's the reason why revenue management exists, and is constantly being refined and fine-tuned. There is absolutely no question that "consumers" are not a "monolithic" group, and there is a wide range of desired products and services at a wide range of price points. But there is also no question that, in sheer volume terms, the number of consumers whose behavior is driven by price first and foremost constitutes the largest single group of consumers. The fact that other groups of consumers exist - those who want a separate cabin, those who want more legroom, etc. - is precisely the reason why U.S. network airlines offering F, and offer extra-legroom sections of Y. The fact that such up-selling products may not necessarily exist on a given day for the purchase of a given flight on a given route at a given time simply validates the obvious - that revenue management isn't perfect.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:38 pm

commavia wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
The trouble with this view, I think, is that "consumers" are not a monolithic group, and the mythical "pay more to get more" product sometimes does not exist.

I buy a lot of refundable tickets 7-10 days out. Frequently the Y+ product is competitively priced but all that is available are middles. So, my choices are paying X for 27C or paying X+50 for a middle with more legroom and maybe a snack or drink and better overhead space.

Neither of those is the product I want, and neither of those is the product that you and others on this thread seem to have identified as the better product that passengers will not buy.


Customers aren't guaranteed that there will necessarily always be availability of the product they want at a price they're willing to accept. That's the reason why revenue management exists, and is constantly being refined and fine-tuned. There is absolutely no question that "consumers" are not a "monolithic" group, and there is a wide range of desired products and services at a wide range of price points. But there is also no question that, in sheer volume terms, the number of consumers whose behavior is driven by price first and foremost constitutes the largest single group of consumers. The fact that other groups of consumers exist - those who want a separate cabin, those who want more legroom, etc. - is precisely the reason why U.S. network airlines offering F, and offer extra-legroom sections of Y. The fact that such up-selling products may not necessarily exist on a given day for the purchase of a given flight on a given route at a given time simply validates the obvious - that revenue management isn't perfect.


To me, "price first" is not a useful descriptor for customers because it encompasses the $79 Y- ticket to MCO crowd, the business travelers on draconian travel policies who have to take the 5:30 a.m. double connection to save $20 and the business travelers who are "price first among the choices with sensible schedules." To which group(s) are you referring?
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commavia
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:43 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
To me, "price first" is not a useful descriptor for customers because it encompasses the $79 Y- ticket to MCO crowd, the business travelers on draconian travel policies who have to take the 5:30 a.m. double connection to save $20 and the business travelers who are "price first among the choices with sensible schedules." To which group(s) are you referring?


I disagree. I think it is precisely the correct descriptor. "Price first" means "price first" - whether it's because the passenger is highly price-sensitive leisure, or highly-corporate-policy-constrained business. In any event, the result is the same - the passenger is making a booking decision based on the fare first and foremost, and sometimes regardless of any other factors. Now, that said, is there some potential behavioral differentiation between these two types of "price first" travelers, in terms of the potential opportunity for an airline to up-sell them on products and services like extra legroom, and/or distinguish the experience due to frequent flyer loyalty and elite status, etc.? Sure. That's definitely a potential point of differentiation. And again, that is precisely the point of revenue management.

But ultimately, in the final analysis, airlines - like all profit-seeking enterprises - have to respond to consumers' behavior. And if the majority (vast majority, I'd say) of consumers, regardless of the reason(s), make purchasing decisions based first and foremost on price, it is only natural that airlines are going to respond by trying to reduce cost - which is what dense cabins is all about - so as to be responsive to those purchasing decisions.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:44 pm

Passengers will not pay for the space they demand. So AA has no economic choice. I choose to utilize seat guru and my impressions of service and will pay a reasonable premium as long as my schedule is met.

I still recall how no one would pay for More room Throughout Coach nor even dramatically prefer AA for the space. Sad fact is customers conditioned AA to cut legroom.


michman wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
Jesus is this for real? Holy hell. Upgrades are hard enough as it is even with 16F - I find it hard to believe AA isn't selling a good chunk of those these days. Where the hell did the poster above come up with only 3% of F seats are sold? That is total and utter BS. 3% - hahahah that means less than 1 seat per 737 flight is actually sold - LMAO - not true.


OP said 3% of passengers which works out to about 25% - 30% of F seats being sold vs. upgrades. DL reported selling 57% of their F seats in a recent report.

Rational post and reasonable. If not enough sell for a high enough price, then time to cut the cabin.

Lightsaber
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ILUVDC10S
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:51 pm

Thing is Airlines are starting to feel the heat of over indulgence. Like certain sectors of restaurant business is feeling now.. Expenses too high, service at a all time low ,due to over saturation, raising prices on items, making items smaller Hint the Subway foot long debacle. Chipolte food safety scandal, etc. Airlines must fix this and not do it on the back of the customers you caused this on yourself its your responsibility to fix this now.
 
Wacker1000
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:56 pm

9w748capt wrote:
Jesus is this for real? Holy hell. Upgrades are hard enough as it is even with 16F - I find it hard to believe AA isn't selling a good chunk of those these days. Where the hell did the poster above come up with only 3% of F seats are sold? That is total and utter BS. 3% - hahahah that means less than 1 seat per 737 flight is actually sold - LMAO - not true.


Could be true since it sounds like he ran out of a meeting and the first thing he did was post the meeting minutes on the internet. ;)


Taco2sDay wrote:
Parkerization


Is that code for "not giving stuff away and running a stable business"?
 
commavia
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:57 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Passengers will not pay for the space they demand. So AA has no economic choice. I choose to utilize seat guru and my impressions of service and will pay a reasonable premium as long as my schedule is met.


Indeed.

It is telling that every single major airline in the U.S. - network carriers, LCCs and ULCCs - is either already operating high-density narrowbody configurations or is actively in the process of adding density to some or all of its narrowbody aircraft. Spirit, Frontier and Allegiant are all operating high-density A320 family aircraft today. AA, Delta, United, JetBlue and Alaska have all been increasing density of their 737 and/or A320 family aircraft in recent years, and/or are in the process of doing so now. And media darling Southwest, too, has "Evolved" its 737s to add more seats.

lightsaber wrote:
I still recall how no one would pay for More room Throughout Coach nor even dramatically prefer AA for the space. Sad fact is customers conditioned AA to cut legroom.


Absolutely. AA tried giving every Y passenger more legroom. The clear response from the market was that there were not enough consumers willing to pay a premium for it. AA, and all other airlines, got the message loud and clear. The network airlines in the U.S. have all concluded that the more economically rational solution is to divide the Y cabin with a smaller section offering more legroom for the smaller subset of travelers willing to pay a premium for it.
 
OB1504
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:02 pm

Wouldn't the installation of the (boderline-unusable) space flex lavatories like on the DL 739ER also free up cabin space?

alasizon wrote:
With the way AA's current layout is, the removal of a row of first and shifting the seats around you would be able to get the two rows in without squeezing anyone too much (as I recall the bulkhead is currently 41 inches compared to the mandated 38). In order to add another row past that, you would have to chop off an inch of pitch off every single row or really get creative with the layout (if there is extra room in the forward galley that isn't needed on a given flight then that would be able to solve the issue).


I wouldn't be surprised if AA reduced the non-MCE Y pitch from 31" to 30" on the 737 to match the A319.
 
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N717TW
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:24 pm

DDR wrote:
wenders825 wrote:
DDR wrote:

Sitting in F is not a right. Good grief.

this. just like award space

if people are willing to pay why should the airline give it out for free? they are a business


Exactly! F fares are lower than they used to be, but still enough to make a premium for the airline. More people are willing to pay for F than in previous years. No reason the airlines shouldn't sell every F seat that they can. It's not just AA, every airline in the U.S. is doing this. BTW, when I fly on my own dime, I buy a Y ticket. Kudos to those who can afford to fly in F, I certainly don't hold a grudge against them. They help make my airline profitable. Airlines aren't a charity.


On the surface you are correct and the chorus of frequent flyers who complain sound childish. However, the upgrade is part of the loyalty scheme that works extremely well for the airlines. The first class upgrade is the stated and touted benefit of the elite-level loyalty program. Its the reason a person will buy a ticket on airline X with the out of the way connection rather than a non-stop or a better timed/easier connection on another airline. Doug Parker of all people should understand that since USAir was the king of selling connecting tickets--and they treated their Platinum and Chairman's Club elites like royalty (compared to the rest of the airline, which was pretty low-rent). Maybe he doesn't think loyalty and connecting tickets are as important anymore with the AA hub network but PHL, PHX and CLT depended on them. If you aren't going to have a decent shot at an upgrade then the point of the program becomes less valuable.
 
commavia
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:27 pm

N717TW wrote:
However, the upgrade is part of the loyalty scheme that works extremely well for the airlines. The first class upgrade is the stated and touted benefit of the elite-level loyalty program. Its the reason a person will buy a ticket on airline X with the out of the way connection rather than a non-stop or a better timed/easier connection on another airline. Doug Parker of all people should understand that since USAir was the king of selling connecting tickets--and they treated their Platinum and Chairman's Club elites like royalty (compared to the rest of the airline, which was pretty low-rent). Maybe he doesn't think loyalty and connecting tickets are as important anymore with the AA hub network but PHL, PHX and CLT depended on them. If you aren't going to have a decent shot at an upgrade then the point of the program becomes less valuable.


Right, but that's exactly the point. AA - like, apparently, Delta and United - appears to have concluded that the revenue-generating potential of their frequent flyer elite programs are simply no longer sufficient to offset the direct and indirect costs. Are the three U.S. network carriers correct in this conclusion? Again - like any number of other things that people endlessly complain about and second-guess, it's impossible to know for sure. In all likelihood, we won't know for sure until we look back several years in the future. But it seems as though AA, Delta and United all agree that some level of loyalty loss - as former elites become free agents or switch to competitors - will cost less than continuing to offer benefits to said elites. We'll see.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:34 pm

commavia wrote:
And if the majority (vast majority, I'd say) of consumers, regardless of the reason(s), make purchasing decisions based first and foremost on price, it is only natural that airlines are going to respond by trying to reduce cost - which is what dense cabins is all about - so as to be responsive to those purchasing decisions.


To me this is the crux of our disagreement. I think airlines should optimize for the group that leads to the most revenue/profit, not the group that puts the most butts in seats. And I'm not aware of any evidence that the price-sensitive crowd is the most profitable. Several semi-opaque comments on earnings calls (including at least one from Mr. Parker) suggest the opposite.

I also think that revenue management of add-ons needs work. I've bought a number of ~$400 refundable BNA-PIT tickets in the last 90 days. DL will give me an exit row for free on those tickets; AA often wants $9 to assign me any seat. AA manages revenue correctly in the sense that $409 is more than $400, but when I fly DL instead the more salient datum is that $400 is much more than zero.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
commavia
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:40 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
I think airlines should optimize for the group that leads to the most revenue/profit, not the group that puts the most butts in seats.


I don't disagree, although I suspect that the management of AA (and the other network carriers) would say that this is exactly what they're already doing.

It seems to me that the network carriers' argument(s) would be that through a wide array of interrelated and mutually-dependent commercial initiatives ongoing across their businesses - including, but not limited to, cabin density, frequent flyer program devaluation, sales and revenue management optimization, etc. - the net effect will be a more optimized mix across multiple distinct product offerings on their flights, including fewer seats dedicated to premium customers willing to pay premium prices, the same or more seats dedicated to extra legroom for customers willing to pay a premium for that, and more seats dedicated to a basic offering for people unwilling to pay much of a premium. Again - it remains to be seen whether the network airlines can pull of this multi-segment optimization. We'll see.

Cubsrule wrote:
I also think that revenue management of add-ons needs work. I've bought a number of ~$400 refundable BNA-PIT tickets in the last 90 days. DL will give me an exit row for free on those tickets; AA often wants $9 to assign me any seat. AA manages revenue correctly in the sense that $409 is more than $400, but when I fly DL instead the more salient datum is that $400 is much more than zero.


Okay, although surely AA knows that and incorporates such behavior into its logarithms. One would think, perhaps incorrectly, that if AA saw a huge share shift as a result of its revenue management optimizing for an outcome that doesn't actually occur - because the passenger goes to Delta instead - it would adjust its pricing in that given city pair to recapture that share, if it was financially advantageous to do so. Perhaps AA's revenue management "needs work," or perhaps it's working just as AA wants - and AA would rather watch $400 go to Delta so it can withhold inventory for a higher-yielding walkup later.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:45 pm

commavia wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
I also think that revenue management of add-ons needs work. I've bought a number of ~$400 refundable BNA-PIT tickets in the last 90 days. DL will give me an exit row for free on those tickets; AA often wants $9 to assign me any seat. AA manages revenue correctly in the sense that $409 is more than $400, but when I fly DL instead the more salient datum is that $400 is much more than zero.


Okay, although surely AA knows that and incorporates such behavior into its logarithms. One would think, perhaps incorrectly, that if AA saw a huge share shift as a result of its revenue management optimizing for an outcome that doesn't actually occur - because the passenger goes to Delta instead - it would adjust its pricing in that given city pair to recapture that share, if it was financially advantageous to do so. Perhaps AA's revenue management "needs work," or perhaps it's working just as AA wants - and AA would rather watch $400 go to Delta so it can withhold inventory for a higher-yielding walkup later.


$400 is essentially the walkup in that city pair (it's B on AA and I have never seen B sold out although Y is available).

I think the problem is more one of saving the seats for elites who do not ultimately book. DL seems to do better at striking that balance. UA isn't a meaningful player in most of my city pairs, but they are closer to AA in this regard.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
commavia
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:51 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
I think the problem is more one of saving the seats for elites who do not ultimately book.


Well, again, that may be the perception of a single traveler with experience in a single city pair that is interacting with a hub that handles traffic flow across thousands of city pairs on a daily basis. And, alas, that perception may be correct. All I'm suggesting is that it is at least possible that AA recognizes the exact dynamic being described - including slight pricing differences driven by paid seat selection, withholding inventory for late-booking elites, etc. - and is consciously, and happily, pricing that way for a reason.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:58 pm

commavia wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
I think the problem is more one of saving the seats for elites who do not ultimately book.


Well, again, that may be the perception of a single traveler with experience in a single city pair that is interacting with a hub that handles traffic flow across thousands of city pairs on a daily basis. And, alas, that perception may be correct. All I'm suggesting is that it is at least possible that AA recognizes the exact dynamic being described - including slight pricing differences driven by paid seat selection, withholding inventory for late-booking elites, etc. - and is consciously, and happily, pricing that way for a reason.


I see the problem of no free seats for last minute purchasers as more structural. I can expense a bundled ticket. I can afford but cannot expense a $9 "preferred seat" charge for 17A.

For those of us who rarely book very far in advance, what is the benefit of traveling on AA and earning the status that fixes the problem? AA seems to have moved to a model of aggressive status matching (they gave me Platinum unsolicited a couple of years ago when I was DL silver and either A List or Preferred but not Companion Pass) to find new elites rather than earning the business. Other than "I trust Mr. Parker," what is the case for that choice?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
commavia
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:20 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
I see the problem of no free seats for last minute purchasers as more structural. I can expense a bundled ticket. I can afford but cannot expense a $9 "preferred seat" charge for 17A.

For those of us who rarely book very far in advance, what is the benefit of traveling on AA and earning the status that fixes the problem? AA seems to have moved to a model of aggressive status matching (they gave me Platinum unsolicited a couple of years ago when I was DL silver and either A List or Preferred but not Companion Pass) to find new elites rather than earning the business. Other than "I trust Mr. Parker," what is the case for that choice?


This entire discussion is academic, and speculative. None of us know the true economics of AA's revenue management decision algorithms. I'm not suggesting that anyone "trust Mr. Parker," nor saying that AA's judgement is necessarily "right" nor any individual traveler's perception necessarily "wrong." All I'm saying is that it's at least possible that AA is consciously, intentionally pricing as it is and it simply seems irrational or suboptimal to an individual traveler to whom the broader financial dynamics are opaque. As said - ultimately, it is likely only in retrospect that people will be able to judge the overall financial efficacy of the way in which AA prices and revenue-manages its network, at a macro level. If, in two or three years from now, when AA is further along in its merger integration process, it is under-performing Delta and United's margins materially, then perhaps we may be able to point to AA's revenue management approach is a proximate cause.
Last edited by commavia on Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:22 pm

commavia wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
I see the problem of no free seats for last minute purchasers as more structural. I can expense a bundled ticket. I can afford but cannot expense a $9 "preferred seat" charge for 17A.

For those of us who rarely book very far in advance, what is the benefit of traveling on AA and earning the status that fixes the problem? AA seems to have moved to a model of aggressive status matching (they gave me Platinum unsolicited a couple of years ago when I was DL silver and either A List or Preferred but not Companion Pass) to find new elites rather than earning the business. Other than "I trust Mr. Parker," what is the case for that choice?


This entire discussion is academic, and speculative. None of us know the true economics of AA's revenue management decision algorithms. I'm not suggesting that anyone "trust Mr. Parker," nor saying that AA's judgement is "right" nor any individual traveler's perception "wrong." All I'm saying is that it's at least possible that AA is consciously, intentionally pricing as it is and it simply seems irrational or suboptimal to an individual traveler to whom the broader financial dynamics are opaque.


No question, but to me "trust what you cannot see" does not make for very interesting conversation.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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LoftleidirDC8
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:23 pm

Sitting in F may not be a "right" but it is a way to keep the high yield frequent business flyer loyal.
 
commavia
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:25 pm

LoftleidirDC8 wrote:
Sitting in F may not be a "right" but it is a way to keep the high yield frequent business flyer loyal.


True, and of course, AA - like Delta and United - is more than happy to sell an F seat to those "high yield frequent business flyer[s]" who want to pay for it. But there's no question that AA, Delta and United are going to try and make it more difficult - overall - for those "high yield frequent business flyer[s]" to pay for Y and sit in F.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:25 pm

TheGeordielad wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
sagechan wrote:
Taking an already uncomfortable plane and making it more uncomfortable. At least the MAXs wont have IFE boxes under the seat. Almost certainly F would go down to 12 for this.

So post MD80s:
E175/crj900 - 76 seats
A319 - 128
A320 - 150
738s - 174
32B - 181
321 - 187

Assuming the A321s eventually standardize. There is still a huge gap between the large regionals and smallest mainline.


This is why I don't understand why AA doesn't think they need a 100 seater.

They do have E-190s which about 100 or may be 99.


E190s are on the way out, with no replacement planned
 
commavia
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:27 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
This is why I don't understand why AA doesn't think they need a 100 seater.

INFINITI329 wrote:
E190s are on the way out, with no replacement planned


As has been discussed at length over the last year, it still seems to me as though AA has concluded that it can cater to the segment of markets in question - served by 100-seat aircraft at certain competitors - through a mix of A319s and E175s. United appears to have come to a similar conclusion. In contrast, and perhaps driven by a different network structure and/or different hub competitive dynamics, Delta has obviously gone in a very different direction with big investments in both the 717 and CS100 in the ~100-seat segment. It will be interesting to watch these divergent fleet strategies play out.
 
wwtraveler99
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:42 pm

wenders825 wrote:
DDR wrote:
FlyUSAir wrote:

I'll PM you my next flights so you can purchase F tickets for me.


Sitting in F is not a right. Good grief.

this. just like award space

if people are willing to pay why should the airline give it out for free? they are a business



That's because everyone feels entitled these days. F Is not a right. It's a perk when not sold out. I am
curious how many would be less loyal to AA DL and Ua if there was no F?
 
travaz
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:50 pm

I fly 4 to 5 times a year all for pleasure, I buy F tickets because I do not want to be subject to the conditions of most flights. I fly out of PHX so my choice is AA or DL. I will jump from one to the other because I dont fly enough to get any real benefit from FF. When I fly AA there is usually a wait list for upgrade of 20 +. AA could fill the entire F cabin for free if they want. That is not going to happen. EA CO AS (post #46) has it right. People want to fly for cheap. When I am in F most of the people I talk to purchased the F seat because they are tired of trying to get upgraded and never getting the F seat. IMHO the FF programs are going to radically change (again) to the point of being useless except for a very small number of customers. Last trip I took I was told in PHX that I could not use the AA club because I was not an elite even though I purchased a full price F ticket. I would have to pay a 50.00 fee to use the club.
 
jetero
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:05 pm

incitatus wrote:
FlyUSAir wrote:

I'll PM you my next flights so you can purchase F tickets for me.


I have a friend who bought SFO-DFW roundtrip for $400 in F. Domestic F really does not seem very expensive these days.


Well it's $1200 from IAH so I'm not sure what your point is. If there's healthy competition like there is from SFO to DFW, then there's healthy competition. Those tickets weren't bought by a business traveler, I'm pretty damned sure--I'm not sure what the point is to sell a couple of F tickets 90 days out for $400, unless it's (what I think) really to limit the supply of seats for upgrades and then "entice" (read: force) elites into paying the $1200. That does not seem particularly sensible to me.

Cubsrule wrote:
commavia wrote:
And if the majority (vast majority, I'd say) of consumers, regardless of the reason(s), make purchasing decisions based first and foremost on price, it is only natural that airlines are going to respond by trying to reduce cost - which is what dense cabins is all about - so as to be responsive to those purchasing decisions.


To me this is the crux of our disagreement. I think airlines should optimize for the group that leads to the most revenue/profit, not the group that puts the most butts in seats. And I'm not aware of any evidence that the price-sensitive crowd is the most profitable. Several semi-opaque comments on earnings calls (including at least one from Mr. Parker) suggest the opposite.

I also think that revenue management of add-ons needs work. I've bought a number of ~$400 refundable BNA-PIT tickets in the last 90 days. DL will give me an exit row for free on those tickets; AA often wants $9 to assign me any seat. AA manages revenue correctly in the sense that $409 is more than $400, but when I fly DL instead the more salient datum is that $400 is much more than zero.


I agree with every one of your examples in this post. It makes zero sense that if you are a top tier on any airline that you are don't have a choice even of a window or an aisle seat, nevermind in Economy Plus or the equivalent.

We can go on and on about what the market will bear, but the difference is there are real barriers to competition in the industry, and plenty of markets are getting absolutely screwed over during consolidation. Others are fat and happy because the airlines (contrary to what they are saying otherwise) are still tripping over themselves playing market share battles in selected markets, with the result that flyers in those markets are being subsidized by people who really don't have a choice.

Why do certain people in this thread who so confidently say that UA and CO screwed the pooch by alienating their FFs by flying RJs on 1,000-mile segments and are rightfully paying for it now saying que sera sera with a decision like this? VX was right in the sense that there is probably going to be a big demographic change--flyers 10 years from now are probably not even going to bother chasing after elite status. Maybe that's fine, but it doesn't seem like that the Big 3 are orienting themselves towards that day with their much higher cost structures.

I think the only way to fix is to have a substantially upgraded E+ product.

As Cubsrule says, "trust what you cannot see," I suppose. Until the next inevitable downturn and they come crying back for their long-term high-value fliers.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:10 pm

cheapgreek wrote:
Airlines are cyclical businesses and during that time other airlines lost money.also.

No one's contending that they didn't. But what AA found is that they were not attracting a RASM premium to compensate the CASM increase, and as average load factors began to rise from the 2002 era onward, AA was at the disadvantage of having fewer seats to offer.

It was a ridiculously predictable blunder that bit them hard, and was quickly done away with.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
commavia
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:17 pm

jetero wrote:
It makes zero sense that if you are a top tier on any airline that you are don't have a choice even of a window or an aisle seat, nevermind in Economy Plus or the equivalent.


I have top tier elite status on a U.S. network carrier, and I routinely face the situation of no window or aisle seats available if I book a trip last minute. That's the way it works. Elite status alone doesn't guarantee a good seat - unless, that is, you pay for F. If other people book tickets in Y earlier than me, and either have similar elite status or are willing to pay for windows or aisles, I don't expect an airline to prevent them from selecting such seats on the chance that I might show up.

jetero wrote:
We can go on and on about what the market will bear, but the difference is there are real barriers to competition in the industry, and plenty of markets are getting absolutely screwed over during consolidation. Others are fat and happy because the airlines (contrary to what they are saying otherwise) are still tripping over themselves playing market share battles in selected markets, with the result that flyers in those markets are being subsidized by people who really don't have a choice.


I continue to strongly disagree. There are very, very few city pairs in the U.S. today where one airline literally has a monopoly. The vast majority of markets in the U.S. today have multiple airline competitors, and in the markets constituting - I strongly suspect - the vast majority of actual volume, there are multiple nonstop competitors.

jetero wrote:
Why do certain people in this thread who so confidently say that UA and CO screwed the pooch by alienating their FFs by flying RJs on 1,000-mile segments and are rightfully paying for it now saying que sera sera with a decision like this?


I fail to see how the two are in any way related. As Scott Kirby, United's new President, himself has stated - flying 50-seat RJs on long domestic sectors, and up against other airlines' 2-class RJs if not mainline, was not a winning strategy. Adding density to cabins, however, is something every single major U.S. airline agrees is economically advantageous. Again, it bears repeating - Alaska, Allegiant, AA, Delta, Frontier, JetBlue, Southwest, Spirit and United cumulatively constitute well over 90% of all airline traffic in the U.S. and every single one of them has made, and/or is in the process of making, their mainline narrowbody cabins more dense. Are they all wrong?

jetero wrote:
VX was right in the sense that there is probably going to be a big demographic change--flyers 10 years from now are probably not even going to bother chasing after elite status.


Too bad the theory didn't actually lead to Virgin America being a viable, sustainable business.
 
waly777
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:35 pm

Jo8338 wrote:
wenders825 wrote:
DDR wrote:

Sitting in F is not a right. Good grief.

this. just like award space

if people are willing to pay why should the airline give it out for free? they are a business


Because these are the elites that actually keep the airlines afloat with the expensive last minute fare.


The elites can also pay for F if they wish. Upgrades are not a right; if the airline sees more Y demand and less revenue F, they have every right to adjust the cabin accordingly. This is a business, not a charity.

I still don't understand what the fuss is about, Y pax have overwhelmingly voted with their wallet for the last few decades. The airlines are trying to give a product which matches the price pax want but there are complaints. There are multiple products to choose from in the market according to what you can afford.

You don't select cheap ham from the shopping aisle and expect to get super premium ham during checkout right? The same applies. If you want more, pay more... simple.
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
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N717TW
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Re: AA to increase 737 capacity

Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:13 pm

wwtraveler99 wrote:
wenders825 wrote:
DDR wrote:

Sitting in F is not a right. Good grief.

this. just like award space

if people are willing to pay why should the airline give it out for free? they are a business



That's because everyone feels entitled these days. F Is not a right. It's a perk when not sold out. I am
curious how many would be less loyal to AA DL and Ua if there was no F?


A lot.

It's pretty reasonable to say that UA and AA's coach product (with DL slightly ahead) trail B6 and AS (although AS and DL are probably on par). Even WN's cattle car is actually pretty good compared to AA/UA despite the check-in gymnastics, stock-yard queueing and Filene's Basement seat-grab.

Tell me why someone who lives in a mid-sized city (or a large city where the market is split a la NYC, DC, BOS, CHI, SF, LA, SEA) would opt to fly AA, UA or DL exclusively if the best they could get for their $3-15K and 25 to 100K in flying is basic 30" coach? It's not for the free plane tickets because not only are those hard to get when you want but they earning rewards is easier to do without flying than by actually flying.

This densification, cabin splitting appears to be working at the moment because there is semi-collusion going on where the airlines announce they are doing things then hear the competitors signal similar moves and then they all follow suit; shall I name all the things that have gone this way in the last 10 years? Bag fees, aisle seat fees, $200 change fees, reduced pitch, revenue-based frequent flyer "miles" and so on.

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