After the departure of A310s last year, Tarom has been looking for some airplanes to replace them.

According to the fly-ra forum, for European flights, they are taking delivery of the 737-800 that were intented to be TC-CRC and TC-CRD in the Pegasus fleet, thus adding two brand-new 737-800s.

In addition, also according to that Romanian forum, to relaunch long-haul operations, they will probably adquire two 777s. Possible destinations are New York and Beijing.

What do you think about this movement? Will Tarom survive? Will they even get stronger?

Tarom is too small to survive, they won't make it. Malev didn't make it either and at that time they were bigger than Tarom is now. Blue Air will take over the role of largest Romanian airline, in fact they already are. Here's another parallel with Hungary where Wizzair took over the role of largest airline of the country.

Best bet for them would be to do some kind of deal and join the AF/KL group as a feeder. Other than that, they are indeed too small and specialised to survive.

Any thoughts or early indications on where the 777's will come from ?

HEATHROWHUNTER wrote:

Any thoughts or early indications on where the 777's will come from ?

No way they will get a 777, way too much airplane for them. I know they were considering a few leased 787's for PEK and JFK route, but first they needed to up their feeder network for which they were considering the addition of a few 737's.

777? I also believe that's too much for them.
Maybe a couple of 767-300ER or A330-200 is enough.

Ideally, relying on DL/AF/KL for feed to the USA via Prague, Paris, or Amsterdam would do for westward travel. For eastward travel, maybe via SU in Moscow SVO. If they want long haul themselves, the Boeing 767-300ER is still available and more ideal as that's the right size for them.

The 738 deal is done and even announced in Romanian government websites:
http://mt.gov.ro/web14/spatiul-media/co ... 05052017-2

For the 777s, rumors say that they could come from Singapore Airlines (200ER or 300):
http://aeronews.ro/doua-boeing-uri-777- ... ota-tarom/
In the past, they have used B707, Il-62, A310 and temporarily DC-10 for their long-haul operations, but for more than ten years, no such flights have been operated.

Also, dedicated business-class seats could be changed for regular seats, the Secretary of Transport of Romania says:
http://aeronews.ro/video-aproape-sigur- ... in-toamna/

There have been rumors for RO to re-start long-haul routes since 2004.

I only have 3 words to say: "Not, gonna, happen"

Would be nice to fly on 777s on OTP-MAD or OTP-AMS before this move bankrupts the airline though!

The photo shopped Boeing 777-300 looks quite nice in the Tarom livery.

First one is already in Bucharest:
http://radarbox24.com/data/registration/yr-bgj

Already in Tarom livery:

(Source: https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/8596586)

Tarom is finally asking for offers for leasing 3 widebodies:
http://tarom.ro/en/aircraft-lease-announcement-0

But maybe they won't be 777 but something smaller like A330 or B787. Let's see how this continues.

albertocsc wrote:

Tarom is finally asking for offers for leasing 3 widebodies:
http://tarom.ro/en/aircraft-lease-announcement-0

But maybe they won't be 777 but something smaller like A330 or B787. Let's see how this continues.

Mostly likely a330s as there seems to be quite a lot on the market for lease.

I could've sworn it was confirmed that they were due to take 2 777-200ERs in October, no? But yes, I do agree that it is a bit much. Maybe getting some 767-300ERs will suffice.

Of note...the 738s TAROM got were from Air Lease Corporation, who acquired both the remaining Pegasus Airlines order book and some 737s sold by Pegasus to ALC without a leaseback. As for wide bodies, a 763 is the biggest warranted.

There is very little hope for them with FR and W6 flying into OTP. They just can't compete. The long haul might be a chance to try to salvage some connecting European passengers, but even that is a stretch with IST only an hour away by air. TK isn't going to sit ideally by and watch them eat into their profits.

The Problem with the B767s are that cargo Airlines seems to be getting them at a fast pace and whether they can get 3 on lease and that hasn't got high cycles is another thing.

For the 763ER, they announcement is stating "YOM : Not before 2012". Not sure there's a lot of second hand 763ER frames on the market matching with that.

A380MSN004 wrote:

For the 763ER, they announcement is stating "YOM : Not before 2012". Not sure there's a lot of second hand 763ER frames on the market matching with that.

I suspect that they'll be taking A333s from a leasing company's order book. I wouldn't be surprised if another consortium is formed by Hi Fly from which to source three new frames (Nepal Airlines has two A332s on order sourced from Hi Fly's order book).

Ok, interesting. If they find the wished frames (5 Years maximum) it's not gonna be cheap to operate them if they go with A333s.
But on the other hand the same equivalent frame at Boeing would be a 763ERW with 5 years, not sure there's some on the market available at the moment.

looks like the age criteria may be waved off, rumors suggest Tarom has two offers: (1) ex SQ 777-200ER @ a leasing rate of 300k / mo and (2) ex LA 787 @ a leasing rate of 1,000k / mo

routes may include PVG, BWI, ICN, ORD, YUL from OTP

afgeneral wrote:

looks like the age criteria may be waved off, rumors suggest Tarom has two offers: (1) ex SQ 777-200ER @ a leasing rate of 300k / mo and (2) ex LA 787 @ a leasing rate of 1,000k / mo

routes may include PVG, BWI, ICN, ORD, YUL from OTP

If true, then they really are hell-bent on losing money, aren't they? ICN-OTP?? Or PVG and BWI?? Really? Not even bigger markets like ARN, OSL or BRU for example, can sustain those destinations. And RO's network of connections in Europe is next to nothing compared to their competitors. It seems they still live in the illusion that they have to serve long-haul no matter the cost, like they did in the Ceauşescu era.

If true, then they really are hell-bent on losing money, aren't they? ICN-OTP?? Or PVG and BWI?? Really? Not even bigger markets like ARN, OSL or BRU for example, can sustain those destinations. And RO's network of connections in Europe is next to nothing compared to their competitors. It seems they still live in the illusion that they have to serve long-haul no matter the cost, like they did in the Ceauşescu era.

Only thing I can think of ICN is an operation similar to OK's PRG-ICN. Although, nope, I'm not even sure whether that route make money or not.

BWI and ORD are just way out there. I don't think either have such a strong VFR traffic either.

zakuivcustom wrote:

If true, then they really are hell-bent on losing money, aren't they? ICN-OTP?? Or PVG and BWI?? Really? Not even bigger markets like ARN, OSL or BRU for example, can sustain those destinations. And RO's network of connections in Europe is next to nothing compared to their competitors. It seems they still live in the illusion that they have to serve long-haul no matter the cost, like they did in the Ceauşescu era.

Only thing I can think of ICN is an operation similar to OK's PRG-ICN. Although, nope, I'm not even sure whether that route make money or not.

BWI and ORD are just way out there. I don't think either have such a strong VFR traffic either.

Prague is a tourism magnet; Bucharest... well, not so much, to put it lightly.
And (almost) any transatlantic flight that depends on VFR traffic is a really bad idea to begin with.

ORD and YUL could work due to Romania community in the area

ICN migh also work since it is a SkyTeam hub w/ KE

lots of Romania - China traffic as well so may take advantage of Chine Eastern / China Southern in Shanghai

afgeneral wrote:

ORD and YUL could work due to Romania community in the area

How many Romanians? With what income? How many travel to Romania? Of those, how many do it outside of the peak weeks or months of summer? What fares are they prepared to pay? How do you fill J at a reasonable yield? Is there cargo? Reply those questions with fact based numbers, add it all up and I can guarantee you that you will come to a different conclusion. There is a reason there are no US flights to PRG, BUD, BUH, SOF and hasn't been for years. And the flight to BEG is suffering it seems. Or has it been scrapped already?

afgeneral wrote:

ICN also work since it is a SkyTeam hub w/ KE

So what? So is CAN, NBO, EZE, MEX, JKT....doesn't mean much when BUH has not much in way of connections

afgeneral wrote:

lots of Romania - China traffic as well so may take advantage of Chine Eastern / China Southern in Shanghai

Define lots. Again, if BRU or ARN can't sustain PVG service, it's highly doubtful that BUH can.

MalevTU134 wrote:

afgeneral wrote:

ORD and YUL could work due to Romania community in the area

How many Romanians? With what income? How many travel to Romania? Of those, how many do it outside of the peak weeks or months of summer? What fares are they prepared to pay? How do you fill J at a reasonable yield? Is there cargo? Reply those questions with fact based numbers, add it all up and I can guarantee you that you will come to a different conclusion. There is a reason there are no US flights to PRG, BUD, BUH, SOF and hasn't been for years. And the flight to BEG is suffering it seems. Or has it been scrapped already?

afgeneral wrote:

ICN also work since it is a SkyTeam hub w/ KE

So what? So is CAN, NBO, EZE, MEX, JKT....doesn't mean much when BUH has not much in way of connections

afgeneral wrote:

lots of Romania - China traffic as well so may take advantage of Chine Eastern / China Southern in Shanghai

Define lots. Again, if BRU or ARN can't sustain PVG service, it's highly doubtful that BUH can.

Look MalevTu134, I am just reporting on local news. Even though I have done some consulting work for airlines in the past and am somewhat knowledgeable regarding the industry I do not have the power to command a multiple kEUR study on these routes nor do I have access to the results of such research. I am quite sure that Tarom are doing their homework and trying to identify feasible routes.

From the figures I've seen in the past there is at least strong demand to JFK, ORD and YUL so they might end up focusing on that.

afgeneral wrote:

MalevTU134 wrote:

afgeneral wrote:

ORD and YUL could work due to Romania community in the area

How many Romanians? With what income? How many travel to Romania? Of those, how many do it outside of the peak weeks or months of summer? What fares are they prepared to pay? How do you fill J at a reasonable yield? Is there cargo? Reply those questions with fact based numbers, add it all up and I can guarantee you that you will come to a different conclusion. There is a reason there are no US flights to PRG, BUD, BUH, SOF and hasn't been for years. And the flight to BEG is suffering it seems. Or has it been scrapped already?

afgeneral wrote:

ICN also work since it is a SkyTeam hub w/ KE

So what? So is CAN, NBO, EZE, MEX, JKT....doesn't mean much when BUH has not much in way of connections

afgeneral wrote:

lots of Romania - China traffic as well so may take advantage of Chine Eastern / China Southern in Shanghai

Define lots. Again, if BRU or ARN can't sustain PVG service, it's highly doubtful that BUH can.

Look MalevTu134, I am just reporting on local news. Even though I have done some consulting work for airlines in the past and am somewhat knowledgeable regarding the industry I do not have the power to command a multiple kEUR study on these routes nor do I have access to the results of such research. I am quite sure that Tarom are doing their homework and trying to identify feasible routes.

From the figures I've seen in the past there is at least strong demand to JFK, ORD and YUL so they might end up focusing on that.

Whatever. It sure looked to me it was your opinions.

And just as an advice to Tarom when they are doing their homework: the correct answer may be that there are no routes that justify having a longhaul fleet with all that that implies. May be hard to swallow that pride, but nonetheless that may be the reality.

lots of Romania - China traffic as well so may take advantage of Chine Eastern / China Southern in Shanghai

You would have seen one of the CN4 start a route to OTP by now if the Romania-China traffic is really that big.

Prague is a tourism magnet; Bucharest... well, not so much, to put it lightly.

Something that I just realized is that KE actually fly their 748i to PRG from ICN. So, yeah, I guess the demand is definitely there.

(And come on, we all know how awesome Palace of Parliament is and it beats the like of Charles Bridge by miles )

RO's widebodies worked best when Romania still had a reputation as a crossroads between the eastern block and the west, much like JU widebody ops had their best times during those days.

To South Koreans the Palace of Parliament could be interesting, a bit like the Ryugyong Hotel in Pyongyang, just far more accessible

For RO A330s should be a better choice than 777s, maybe feeder traffic to DL in JFK or KE in ICN.

The fact that RO still exists with W6, FR, and 0B all with significant operations in Bucharest is pretty fascinating to be honest. As is the fact that they haven't sold their LHR slot which is usually one of the first signs that an airline is approaching failure. Although this Longhaul venture seems like a terrible idea, from someone without much knowledge on RO it looks like they're holding their own.

According to Romanian media sources, TAROM has chosen not to acquire any widebody aircraft for the time being. Wise move really considering the current govt-mandated shake up going on within the airline and the less than stellar widebody options available as mentioned earlier in this thread.