YZFOO7F
Topic Author
Posts: 119
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 3:34 pm

Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 3:09 am

I flew YUL-ZRH last fall on a brand new Swiss B77W and it was great! Their business class product is awesome.

Afterwards I heard that this route is commonly served by an A330. That led me to look at Flightaware for this flight and I noticed that the equipment varies between a B77W and A330, seemingly without any kind of pattern.

Is this common? If so, where else do we see it?

What factors would dictate whether a B77W or A330 gets put on this route on a given day? Does it just come down to how the scheduling shakes out for that day?

Image
Promise me you'll always leave the ground
 
catiii
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 3:30 am

YZFOO7F wrote:

Is this common? If so, where else do we see it?



Go take a look at UA's schedules. The routinely upgauge and downgauge on a day over day basis. It's smart revenue management.

Here's one of, literally, hundreds of examples:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL1 ... /KEWR/KRSW
 
a320fan
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 3:36 am

The biggest question I have with long haul routes like this is what happens to the crew. Example the crew of Sunday the 30th. Do they stay in YUL until the Wednesday when the next 777 flight operates, or deadhead home whilst a new crew deadheads over on one of the A333 flights?
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A350-900, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300, Q400
 
YZFOO7F
Topic Author
Posts: 119
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 3:41 am

The biggest question I have with long haul routes like this is what happens to the crew.


That's a good point. Up/downgauging would certainly be easier if it was just changing the series or keeping it in the A320 family. But when you're mixing type ratings, that becomes an issue.

I wonder how far in advance the equipment assignments are known.
Promise me you'll always leave the ground
 
Varsity1
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 4:32 am

a320fan wrote:
The biggest question I have with long haul routes like this is what happens to the crew. Example the crew of Sunday the 30th. Do they stay in YUL until the Wednesday when the next 777 flight operates, or deadhead home whilst a new crew deadheads over on one of the A333 flights?


It's rare to have DH's built into the lines of long haul flights due to the inefficiencies. US and Canadian crews get paid to ride the DH flight like it's flight time and love it as a result. I don't know how the Euro carriers do it since they mostly make salary.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
DALCE
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 12:00 pm

ZRH-YUL-ZRH LX86/87 is flown on days 1357 with 77W and days 246 with 333 equipment. Last year the route was daily 77W for until the winter schedule dropped in.
Despite good loadfactors, the main driver to have the 77W on the route was the capability to operated daily ZRH-YUL-ZRH with 1 frame. And the oldest 77W is just over a year old now, hence the choice to do YUL with the 77W ;)
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,CS3,E75,E90,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,
753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 12:59 pm

The pilots could hold type ratings for both the triple7 and 333.
 
factsonly
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 1:20 pm

This is a fairly common operating philosophy for the more flexible and agile carriers, if only to match available seats with fluctuating demand.

Here is KLM on AMS - Calgary:

2017-05-05 AMS - YYC B789 PH-BHH
2017-05-04 AMS - YYC B789 PH-BHH
2017-05-03 AMS - YYC A333 PH-AKD
2017-05-02 AMS - YYC B772 PH-BQN
2017-05-01 AMS - YYC A333 PH-AKD
2017-04-30 AMS - YYC A333 PH-AKD
2017-04-29 AMS - YYC B772 PH-BQF
2017-04-28 AMS - YYC B789 PH-BHD

At KLM the B777 and B789 are one common type rating, so the airline uses two sets of crews (A) A333 and (B) B777/B789 with each cockpit crew laying over a day extra if scheduling so requires.
Cabin crew may be qualified on all three types, with just a possible variation in the number of CAs required for each aircraft type - so 1 or 2 CAs may lay over longer with the cockpit crew.
 
DALCE
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 2:06 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
The pilots could hold type ratings for both the triple7 and 333.


At LX not possible as the 77W is Swiss Global Airlines AOC, and the Airbus fleet is Swiss International Airlines AOC.
But could very well work with other airlines, although the whole concept between B and A are completely different.
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,CS3,E75,E90,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,
753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
avion660
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 3:00 pm

Over the years I've seen El Al fly B737, B757, B767 and B777 on the Tel Aviv - London LTN route. Recently the 737 flights have out numbered the 767 which used to be the most common. Not seen a 747 ever do that flight.
 
PanzerPowner
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 3:29 pm

Just look at HND-ITA or -KIX
Well uh, I obviously decided to refine this but i dont know how.
 
a320fan
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 4:12 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
The pilots could hold type ratings for both the triple7 and 333.

I've never heard of pilots for major airlines flying two types from different families simultaneously. It's common for Airbus pilots to fly both A320 family and A330/40, and Boeing has its own family groups where it's common to see pilots flying multiple types such as all 737 generations, 757 &767 are common type ratings as well as 777 & 787. I doubt any airline has crews flying both A & B mainly because I doubt regulators would allow it.
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A350-900, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300, Q400
 
User001
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 4:35 pm

Qatar regularly switches between the A330, B787 and B777 on the DOH-MAN.
 
ahj2000
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 4:58 pm

Way back in the day one could get a CR2 or a 330 from Philly to Charlotte on US Airways. :)
-Andrés Juánez
 
diverted
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 6:32 pm

Something I've noticed,
7F will tend to swap their YOW-YFB-YOW day to day between a 737-400 and a 737-400 Combi. Not a fully different type, but interesting enough to go between a full pax and combi bird
 
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United_fan
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 6:34 pm

UA does it on ORD-ROC . We get all narrow bodies except the 757 here .
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 6:50 pm

YZFOO7F wrote:
What factors would dictate whether a B77W or A330 gets put on this route on a given day? Does it just come down to how the scheduling shakes out for that day?


If a carrier is going to maximize profit it needs to work on:

- Aircraft utilization - planes don't make money when parked

- Load factors (too high means 'spill' - no seat for a last-minute buyer ready to pay big bucks)

- Putting too much capacity into a market, causing average fares to decline markedly on routes that can't be 'stimulated'

Secondarily they should be concerned with crew utilization, not just adequate rest periods but also making sure they, too, are flying when legally available to work. Maintenance checks - including work done by 3rd parties on another continent... There's much more to it.

It's very complex with very big carriers that have very big and also very diverse fleets. (Ugh - look at all of Delta's types and 1200+ mainline + Delta Connection aircraft to schedule.)
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 7:33 pm

a320fan wrote:
.... I doubt any airline has crews flying both A & B mainly because I doubt regulators would allow it.


The FAA permits concurrent ops by an active pilot of two different "series" of 737, e.g., Jurassic and NG, or Classic and Jurassic, but not all three series. Other transport agencies may be more lenient WRT the 737 family, or A and B.
 
UALFAson
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Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:41 pm

Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 7:50 pm

a320fan wrote:
The biggest question I have with long haul routes like this is what happens to the crew. Example the crew of Sunday the 30th. Do they stay in YUL until the Wednesday when the next 777 flight operates, or deadhead home whilst a new crew deadheads over on one of the A333 flights?


Remember these are LX crews who are working the flights back home and only flights in one direction are posted here. If you were to look at ZRH-YUL schedules, you would see that the arriving aircraft types match the departing aircraft types.

So the 777 crew flew ZRH-YUL on Saturday the 29th, had a standard layover, and then flew the 777 back home to ZRH on Sunday the 30th.
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
jmc757
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 8:16 pm

Not long haul, so less logistical impact, but Swiss mix flights a lot on their European network. Birmingham BHX for example has all of the following timetabled over the summer ZRH-BHX:

A320
CS100
RJ85
F70 (Helvetic)
E190 (Helvetic)

I imagine a number of European routes out of ZRH are similar. 5 aircraft types on one route is some decent variety!
 
32andBelow
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Fri May 05, 2017 9:28 pm

They probably would just have a long layover if we are talking 48 hours. If longer they could DH in and out
 
cvgComair
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Sat May 06, 2017 12:11 am

ahj2000 wrote:
Way back in the day one could get a CR2 or a 330 from Philly to Charlotte on US Airways. :)


Same on CVG-ATL, there was everything from a CR2 to a B763 on a typical day in 2004.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Sat May 06, 2017 12:24 am

diverted wrote:
Something I've noticed,
7F will tend to swap their YOW-YFB-YOW day to day between a 737-400 and a 737-400 Combi. Not a fully different type, but interesting enough to go between a full pax and combi bird


I believe 7F have 2 all pax 734s. One based at YOW and the other at YZF. I'd imagine the all pax bird gets used on days when the CargoJet 763 heads up to YFB as 7F sub-contract the widebody lift the CJ nowadays.

It's too bad that YOW's hometown airline refuses to look outside of its northern niche and put that 734 to use more often.
 
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intotheair
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Sat May 06, 2017 12:37 am

LA-DEN and LA-SF regularly get almost everything from CRJ200s to 777s on UA.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Sat May 06, 2017 1:09 am

Look at HU495/496. Alternating between the Boeing 787 and Airbus 330.
 
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GE90man
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Re: Variable A/C Types on a Route

Sat May 06, 2017 1:53 am

Cathay uses a variety of different planes on their HKG-TPE route, using pretty much all the different aircraft in their fleet for flights

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