wjcandee
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FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 1:30 am

In my view, the fastest way to eliminate this huge public relations nightmare that keeps coming up again and again is to eliminate the essential cause of the problem. And in my view, that is the fact the flight attendants and gate agents have been overempowered, and insufficiently trained, relating to the threat of arrest. Every single one of these events occurred because a gate agent or flight attendant used that threat, and in some cases then called law enforcement. Unless the person is drunk and hitting people or is a material threat to flight safety, and not just someone that the flight attendant feels is refusing their trivial instruction, the threat of arrest should not be used. In today's political environment, where people feel empowered to fight the police on a regular basis, flight attendants should knock it off when it comes to threatening arrest over trivial crap. Airlines should recognize that threatening arrest today does nothing more than inflame the situation , and caused the kinds of problems they are now experiencing. Flight attendants clearly also need to be retrained regarding the FARs, like that Delta flight attendant who threatened somebody with arrest over her wrong interpretation of FAA guidelines.

If I were Oscar, I would send an edict down from on high that anybody that threatens to have the customer arrested will be terminated, unless it is a truly meaningful safety of flight issue.

The problem here is that gate agents and flight attendants have a wide variety of personalities. Most would not be inclined to threaten arrest, but the few imperious disgruntled self-righteous sanctimonious jerks that pull that out do a huge disservice to the airline. Take that threat away from them, and they will have to handle the situation the way most people do, which is by negotiation and respectfully.

Put simply, the Cartman's of the world, "RESPECT MAH AUTHORI-TAY!!", never get much of anywhere.
Last edited by wjcandee on Sat May 06, 2017 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
BravoOne
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 1:36 am

While you might be right, this is not the forum for objective solutions. Had to laugh or cry depending your point of view, but after watching CNN and FOX News nothing they reported was an accurate assessment of the Delta slap down in HNL, and the panel discussions were even worse. Talk about fake news and a pile on.....
 
IPFreely
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 1:37 am

After the Dao incident, law enforcement is going to be reluctant to respond to calls for service that do not involve drunken or violent passengers or other criminal behaviour. And when they do respond and find the issue is a civil matter between the airline and customer and not a criminal matter, they're likely to enact a practice of leaving the scene immediately.
 
wjcandee
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 1:37 am

True that, but that's the point. The media right now really tries to side with anybody who says no to Authority. Media people resent being told what to do, and affirmatively advocate for people who reject being told what to do, regardless of the law and regardless of who is right.
 
ikramerica
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 1:37 am

The threat of arrest should be like an officer involved shooting. Paid leave until investigated.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
wjcandee
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 1:39 am

ikramerica wrote:
The threat of arrest should be like an officer involved shooting. Paid leave until investigated.


I like it.
 
umass1
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 1:40 am

Trivial instructions...No instruction that a F/A gives to a passenger is trivial. It's usually for the passengers safety, or the safety of another passenger. Unless a F/A is on a power trip, the instructions should not be classified as trivial. Everything else you mentioned I agree with. The threat of arrest should never be used. Maybe the threat of being removed from the flight would hopefully be enough.
 
roadpilot
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 1:41 am

Personally I think the FAs should inform the passenger of said rules then walk away. Sit there at the gate and and run down your crew duty time and when you run out, simply deplane the passengers and cancel. It's not worth the stress and aggravation dealing with hardheaded people, let the cattle fight among themselves
 
airbazar
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 1:47 am

The threat of arrest is a cultural thing in this country. People just don't talk to each other anymore. At the slightest disagreement someone will inevitably threaten to call the cops. It happens everywhere, not just in the airline industry. I don't know any other country where stuff like this happens and I've lived in a few.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 2:07 am

roadpilot wrote:
Personally I think the FAs should inform the passenger of said rules then walk away. Sit there at the gate and and run down your crew duty time and when you run out, simply deplane the passengers and cancel. It's not worth the stress and aggravation dealing with hardheaded people, let the cattle fight among themselves


That's the disengaged, 'I get paid for attendance' attitude that poisons customer service. Customer-facing employees are there to provide service while helping the company make money for shareholders. If they don't have skills to provide information and to persuade, they're in the wrong line of work. Threatening (or calling) LEO isn't persuasion, it's coercion. It's the same when a customer asks for help stowing a bag on-board. When the first response is 'If you can't find a place you'll have to check it,' the FA has failed. That's not help - it's a threat.
 
ikramerica
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 2:19 am

umass1 wrote:
Trivial instructions...No instruction that a F/A gives to a passenger is trivial. It's usually for the passengers safety, or the safety of another passenger. Unless a F/A is on a power trip, the instructions should not be classified as trivial. Everything else you mentioned I agree with. The threat of arrest should never be used. Maybe the threat of being removed from the flight would hopefully be enough.

There are plenty of trivial instructions.

I was listening to Lou dobbs commentary today and he was basically saying that the airline industry is an instrument of a fascist state. That the FAA and DHS empowers civilians and minor security personnel with authoritative powers (do as I say no matter what or you are arrested) makes them a de facto governmental arm, and there is so much abuse at this point that you are left with the choice of not traveling or being subject to detainment at any time.

It's not the only area that is turning fascist. The schools/universities are as well. They are elevating trivial transgressions to crimes, and when not prosecuted as such, the "crimes" are then handled internally resulting in the ruination of lives without recourse.

America. "Do as we say or else."
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 2:26 am

wjcandee wrote:
In my view, the fastest way to eliminate this huge public relations nightmare that keeps coming up again and again is to eliminate the essential cause of the problem.


I agree, but the source of the problem is non-compliance with crewmember instructions.

Unless the instructions given are illegal, immoral, unethical, or compromise safety, while onboard the aircraft you comply first, and appeal/grieve it later.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Junction
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 2:57 am

Good heavens! What have I missed? Is there really a bunch of flight attendants and gate agents going around threatening people with arrest?
 
roadpilot
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 3:27 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
roadpilot wrote:
Personally I think the FAs should inform the passenger of said rules then walk away. Sit there at the gate and and run down your crew duty time and when you run out, simply deplane the passengers and cancel. It's not worth the stress and aggravation dealing with hardheaded people, let the cattle fight among themselves


That's the disengaged, 'I get paid for attendance' attitude that poisons customer service. Customer-facing employees are there to provide service while helping the company make money for shareholders. If they don't have skills to provide information and to persuade, they're in the wrong line of work. Threatening (or calling) LEO isn't persuasion, it's coercion. It's the same when a customer asks for help stowing a bag on-board. When the first response is 'If you can't find a place you'll have to check it,' the FA has failed. That's not help - it's a threat.


I'm sorry, I don't think the FAs should have to sit there and "persuade" somebody to follow a simple directives. Are we transporting adults or toddlers?

I work in ground transportation and I don't argue anymore. I advise and when you don't comply the cops come and remove you. My blood pressure and stress has gone down considerably since I've adapted that stance, I would encourage the crews to do the same
 
727200
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 3:40 am

Here we go again. Passenger causes a scene on the plane or gate area or stall 3 of the men's room. Listening to the 'customer is always right' crowd, they don't want any passenger to be removed or the DOA called because...I have no idea why. So when the passenger has been asked numerous times to conform to the rules, like 99.9% of the other passengers do, the "I need some attention and something for free" non-conformist, is to be allowed to continue in their 'temper tantrum' ways. Really? Forget its a safety issue on the plane to have someone disruptive or doesn't want to sit in their assigned seat, or use someone else's ticket who isn't even flying to get an open seat next to them. Ok, anarchist crowd, YOU deal the trouble makers. YOU deal with the person causing a scene causing the plane to get out late and everyone onboard will now misconnect. YOU have a great time, because the trouble makers are now in control and some of the clowns on this site thinks its ok. The fleas now own the dog folks. You deal with it.
 
airtran737
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 4:02 am

There's a simple solution and that is when the passengers get out of hand, we as pilots declare a safety of flight issue and walk off the aircraft until a satisfactory resolution is found. There is no room for the kind of behavior that has been happening on aircraft as of late by both passengers and crew members.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 4:32 am

In a number of these incidents safety is not involved, it is a matter of airline practices (and sometimes ad hoc). If at all possible, for the sake of other passengers and the peace of mind of the flight crew, the passenger can be accommodated or ignored. After the flight is over a ground supervisor can advise said passenger they will not be allowed to book anymore flights with the airline. Arbitration should be offered. The airline gains a great deal of power by avoiding a confrontation, and can avoid future problems with that passenger.
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Flighty
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 5:06 am

The pendulum is always moving, as my dad says.

For about a decade after 9/11, when people acted in a disruptive or threatening manner onboard an airaplane, people thought nothing of incapacitating or, yes, even killing that person. It happened a number of times. An airplane is not a place for protests and civil disobedience, it is a place for order and conformity.

Customer service is completely optional onboard an aircraft. What is required is conformity and not interfering as the crew does their business. If you interfere meaningfully, you WILL be restrained and arrested. If your disruption has implications for flight security, you can be subdued with force.

This hasn't changed and will not change. People are still wigging out about the boarding thing. During boarding, typical airport law applies. Once the door closes, 9/11 law applies, dramatically higher stakes for you.

Now, things still need to be reasonable, and there are good laws about tarmac and all that. And this doesn't excuse FAs being rude or harassing people. But that's not illegal, that is a customer service issue, which is really best addressed by the loyalty programs office of that airline during business hours.
 
guyanam
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 6:29 am

EA CO AS wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
In my view, the fastest way to eliminate this huge public relations nightmare that keeps coming up again and again is to eliminate the essential cause of the problem.


I agree, but the source of the problem is non-compliance with crewmember instructions.

Unless the instructions given are illegal, immoral, unethical, or compromise safety, while onboard the aircraft you comply first, and appeal/grieve it later.


Some one paid their money for a seat. The airline overbooks. Why should a passenger who is already seated and refuses to disembark be punished? This is the airline's problem and they need to absorb the loss. They overbook, hoping that a given % of passengers don't show. When that doesn't work out its their problem. Not that of passengers already boarded.

If no one volunteers to disembark then the airline will have to compensate those who couldn't board. Refund the fare for that leg, and then feed and accommodate them until they can fly them out. They made a bet and they lost.

The only time offloading becomes legitimate is if the plane is flying heavy due to weather, or a smaller plane has to be used due to unavailability of the appropriate plane.. Even cargo cannot be the excuse as passengers should be given precedent. None of the recent fiascos involved this.

Any way the airlines are inviting more regulations and even the GOP congressional reps are threatening this. So this will not be the "evil liberals" creating trouble.

But the scam that airlines are running making passengers into criminals because they refuse to obey a stupid, and unethical order will not be allowed to continue. And I will suggest that its the management and not the service crews who are to blame, so when airlines scapegoat these people they aren't being cute. I doubt that a customer service person deliberately escalates a problem unless pressured to do so by management. After all it is they who have to face enraged passengers. Not the suits hiding in HQ. Those rogue crews who do go looking for trouble only do so because they know that they have management's backing.
 
wjcandee
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 6:41 am

umass1 wrote:
Trivial instructions...No instruction that a F/A gives to a passenger is trivial. It's usually for the passengers safety, or the safety of another passenger.


Most very-experienced FAs know what to make a big deal about, and what to just finesse. Like a rookie cop who wants to bust someone over an open container who is otherwise not doing anything wrong. The superior might tell him, "Are you sure we want to do that?", or he might stand by and let the kid get some practice and later realize they wasted two hours on paperwork and off-patrol over something trivial. The latter then trains the kid that while everything might be illegal, not everything merits an arrest.
 
wjcandee
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 6:42 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
That's the disengaged, 'I get paid for attendance' attitude that poisons customer service. Customer-facing employees are there to provide service while helping the company make money for shareholders. If they don't have skills to provide information and to persuade, they're in the wrong line of work. Threatening (or calling) LEO isn't persuasion, it's coercion. It's the same when a customer asks for help stowing a bag on-board. When the first response is 'If you can't find a place you'll have to check it,' the FA has failed. That's not help - it's a threat.


Bravo! That's a brilliant post in the best spirit of a.net! Wish I had been bright enough to say it that way. 5-stars.
 
Galwayman
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 6:43 am

I'm amazed US law enforcement agents act on behalf of cabin crew on enforcement of policy matters - in most countries ( democracies ) the police officer would laugh and reject the request ...

And sky marshalls ? I read somewhere that US flight attendants had got a sky Marshall involved in some customer service issue

Beyond ridiculous ..
 
guyanam
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 6:46 am

airtran737 wrote:
There's a simple solution and that is when the passengers get out of hand, we as pilots declare a safety of flight issue and walk off the aircraft until a satisfactory resolution is found. There is no room for the kind of behavior that has been happening on aircraft as of late by both passengers and crew members.


Passenger boards drunk, or behaves violently=security issue. Passenger refusing to turn off cell phone=security issue. Passenger refusing to be seated to allow push back=security issue unless there is a problem and then they ought to solicit assistance from the cabin crew.

Airline overbooks and then wants to kick off a passenger who arrived on time, and are peacefully awaiting departure. NOT security issue.

Major ground delay results in a passenger needing to use the bathroom after the flight has pushed back, but while it isn't in motion. This is a problem that innovative crews can work out. Maybe if the pilot anticipates a ground delay they can warn passengers to use the bathroom before pushback if they really think that they have to within the period of delay.

Too often every thing is a "security issue" and people are treated as if the airline didn't demand payment from the passenger. Even here we see passengers are being referred to as being annoying and irritating and trouble makers. In a typical 738 there are 16 business class and 138 coach. Clearly coach passengers are VITAL even if lower yielding.
 
wjcandee
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 6:50 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Unless the instructions given are illegal, immoral, unethical, or compromise safety, while onboard the aircraft you comply first, and appeal/grieve it later.


In today's media environment, how far are you willing to escalate coercion of compliance? If FA's weren't constantly lording themselves as safety professionals (which they are), and instead thought like most people in customer-service positions, and were trained as such, negotiation and incentivization and good communication would dispense with 90 percent of difficult interactions. Tell me that your basic Marriott bar manager couldn't diffuse a huge proportion of these situations. Rather than going for the stick because they're having a bad day and didn't get a chance to bitch about the passengers behind the curtain in the galley on the last leg, maybe they should start with a sincere apology and then negotiate. When I'm working at a bar, is it good business for me to drag the belligerent drunk out, and if he swings at me have two more of my guys eject him with prejudice, and if he keeps it up call the cops? That's in essence the approach of most FAs today, at least the ones that end up on Youtube or the CBS Evening News. In my time in the hospitality business in various roles, it was very rare that I had to put my hands on someone, and usually it was because somebody else had screwed up the initial interaction. Even today, when a guest in someone else's bar, I have on more than one occasion been encouraged to go talk to that guy, and I can almost always get him to leave like a gentleman and come back welcome next time.
Last edited by wjcandee on Sat May 06, 2017 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
wjcandee
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 6:58 am

"No person may assault, threaten, intimidate, or interfere with a crewmember in the performance of the crewmember's duties aboard an aircraft being operated."

This particular paragraph says nothing about crewmembers being God. They need to stop acting like it. They and those who trained them are responsible for the problems that the Respect My Authority crowd has caused.

I'm a guy who does what he's asked to do on the plane, and always avoid confrontation in the moment; I will take it up later in the proper venue for dealing with the situation. And people who act like babies on planes annoy me beyond belief. However, I also have enough time in challenging interactions to know that there is almost always a way to finesse the problem that will get things back to normal very quickly. People who act like idiots have to be dealt with with in every customer service job. Telling them to "Respect My Authority" is not the most-efficient way to deal with them. And these days, the cops aren't coming to help because you want the kid put in a car seat. So you might as well sincerely apologize and persuade. Because that will -- mark my words -- be the new expectation.

The person who talked about Post-9/11 is correct. And crews stopped being taught (or stopped using) persuasion as a tool, given their new quasi-law-enforcement-self-appointments. Those days are rapidly going in the rear view mirror, so some customer service skills are now going to be required.
Last edited by wjcandee on Sat May 06, 2017 7:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
wjcandee
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 7:08 am

"Turn off that phone, Alec Baldwin, or I'm calling the cops to arrest you!"

vs.

"I'm so sorry, Mr. Baldwin, and I hate to inconvenience you, Sir, but we're not going to be able to move the plane until your phone is turned off and stowed. I'm sure you want all your fans to make their connections in Denver."

As a regular guy, it would pain me to have to do the latter. But when it's my job, like many people in many jobs, I tell myself that it isn't me having to do this, it's my Work Character and I am an actor trying to achieve a result. The fastest route to compliance in that situation is the latter move. And people should learn to put on their superhero clothes and play their character rather than themselves. I take pride in achieving the result, because I'm a big enough person not to let my personal pride get in the way of a strategic apology.

Every customer wants to feel respected, important, and HEARD. Far too often in the airline biz, customers -- the people who pay the bills -- are slighted and treated imperiously and disrespectfully. A simple apology for having to inconvenience someone goes a long way towards diffusing the situation. I adore Airtran737, but he has to have enough time in the cabin to have heard how employees act towards passengers. That the vast majority of us just put up with it, and maybe stew for a while and then realize that it doesn't matter if some airhead nitwit wasn't nice to us and let it go. But other people don't take this stuff so lightly. The piss-poor attitudes of staff are endemic. Even though everyone in the business has an explanation or excuse for why it occurs, the fact is that it is widespread and wouldn't be tolerated in any hospitality business. And eventually, given the diversity of the general public, there are people who are going to say, "Enough!" and push back. And guess what? Every reporter in the world is going to take their side. That's the reality. The reality is that a just-barely-a-doctor who was a complete drama queen and completely-in-the-wrong in the way he acted cost an airline probably a million dollars in damages and a huge amount of lost goodwill because of the context of the inevitable result of his own actions.

The airline had the right to remove him, but it doesn't matter. This is pushback from the public for the imperious treatment that they themselves have suffered and never said anything about. That a passenger takes your guff in silence doesn't mean that it's over. And if airlines want Congress to rewrite the law to qualify that paragraph that everybody quotes, the fastest way to do it is to continue to insist that someone deserves to be dragged from the plane because they don't fully-stow that bag under the seat before takeoff.
Last edited by wjcandee on Sat May 06, 2017 7:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 7:27 am

guyanam wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
In my view, the fastest way to eliminate this huge public relations nightmare that keeps coming up again and again is to eliminate the essential cause of the problem.


I agree, but the source of the problem is non-compliance with crewmember instructions.

Unless the instructions given are illegal, immoral, unethical, or compromise safety, while onboard the aircraft you comply first, and appeal/grieve it later.


Some one paid their money for a seat.


Actually, no - they paid money to be transported from one destination to another. Seat assignments aren't guaranteed.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
77H
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 7:29 am

BravoOne wrote:
While you might be right, this is not the forum for objective solutions. Had to laugh or cry depending your point of view, but after watching CNN and FOX News nothing they reported was an accurate assessment of the Delta slap down in HNL, and the panel discussions were even worse. Talk about fake news and a pile on.....


It actually happened in OGG. Another example of exemplary reporting by mainstream media.

77H
 
n797mx
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 7:30 am

I 100% agree that things can be said in a nicer manner, but rules are rules, and if you fail to comply with a crewmember you are in direct violation of the regulations and should be arrested. You can get off the plane and argue all you want but once you are on the plane you can't just make up your own rules.

That guy on the Delta flight that got up and went to the bathroom should be in jail or fined in my opinion. Its a big pet peeve of mine when people disregard the seatbelt sign. It's there for your safety, not just something a guy just thought would be a good idea some day. You get up you are endangering not only yourself, but other passengers too.
Clear skies and strong tail winds.
 
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zeke
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 7:40 am

guyanam wrote:
Some one paid their money for a seat. The airline overbooks. Why should a passenger who is already seated and refuses to disembark be punished? This is the airline's problem and they need to absorb the loss. They overbook, hoping that a given % of passengers don't show. When that doesn't work out its their problem. Not that of passengers already boarded.


This is a common misconception held by the public, the purchase of a ticket does not purchase a right to a seat on a particular flight. There are many reasons why a passenger may not be carried on a flight, could be the original aircraft that was to do the flight went technical and the had to replace it with an aircraft of small capacity, there maybe a CDL or MEL that requires the aircraft to leave with less than all seats filled, someone on the previous flight might have stolen the safety cards or life jacket, the performance off a runway maybe insufficient may not be sufficient, weather at the destination may require additional fuel which means payload needs to be offloaded, or there maybe more people wanting to travel on a flight than there are seats.

Your contractual agreement with the carrier is outlined in the "conditions of carriage", it covers many things including check in and carry on baggage allocations, your behavior, your dress code, and your agreement to comply with employee/agents requests. When you purchase a ticket, you agree that you are willing to comply with those conditions of carriage, that becomes a two way contract.

Cabin crew never have the power to arrest other that would would be conferred upon any member of the public to make a citizens arrest, even the captain cannot arrest anyone on the ground with the doors open. I would never let cabin crew to get involved with a dispute on the ground, leave that to the ground staff. I need my crew to be there for their primary job that is the safety and security of the cabin and passengers, you cannot have the passengers trust in my view if there is an adversarial atmosphere between passengers and crew.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Confuscius
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 7:45 am

That guy on the Delta flight that got up and went to the bathroom should be in jail


Why upgrade? Isn't flying economy already worse...
Ain't I a stinker?
 
ILUVDC10S
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 8:13 am

zeke wrote:
guyanam wrote:
Some one paid their money for a seat. The airline overbooks. Why should a passenger who is already seated and refuses to disembark be punished? This is the airline's problem and they need to absorb the loss. They overbook, hoping that a given % of passengers don't show. When that doesn't work out its their problem. Not that of passengers already boarded.


This is a common misconception held by the public, the purchase of a ticket does not purchase a right to a seat on a particular flight. There are many reasons why a passenger may not be carried on a flight, could be the original aircraft that was to do the flight went technical and the had to replace it with an aircraft of small capacity, there maybe a CDL or MEL that requires the aircraft to leave with less than all seats filled, someone on the previous flight might have stolen the safety cards or life jacket, the performance off a runway maybe insufficient may not be sufficient, weather at the destination may require additional fuel which means payload needs to be offloaded, or there maybe more people wanting to travel on a flight than there are seats.

Your contractual agreement with the carrier is outlined in the "conditions of carriage", it covers many things including check in and carry on baggage allocations, your behavior, your dress code, and your agreement to comply with employee/agents requests. When you purchase a ticket, you agree that you are willing to comply with those conditions of carriage, that becomes a two way contract.

Cabin crew never have the power to arrest other that would would be conferred upon any member of the public to make a citizens arrest, even the captain cannot arrest anyone on the ground with the doors open. I would never let cabin crew to get involved with a dispute on the ground, leave that to the ground staff. I need my crew to be there for their primary job that is the safety and security of the cabin and passengers, you cannot have the passengers trust in my view if there is an adversarial atmosphere between passengers and crew.

1. If your plane aint 100 percent why is it in the air that MEL crap is a excuse not to get a mechanic and FIX IT ! DAYUM! stop kicking the can down the road buckle up and fix it !
2. wait you mean you just admitted that buying that 777 or 330 was a mistake LOL regretting sending your 747's off to the desert huh ?
3. The plane should be stocked with extra safety cards and life vests so that is not a excuse and every station should have supplies like that too in event a plane needs them.
Oh yes its a two way contract however the airlines think its a one way contract all about them and only about them .
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 351
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 8:25 am

727200 wrote:
. Listening to the 'customer is always right' crowd...


The "customer is always right" crowd? Nice. Then you wonder why the (international) travelling public prefers the likes of EK and SQ to crappy US airlines.
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 351
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 8:30 am

This is a common misconception held by the public, the purchase of a ticket does not purchase a right to a seat on a particular flight.


Maybe that's one of the first things we ought to change when we re-regulate the airlines.
 
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Embajador3
Posts: 277
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:28 am

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 8:37 am

I find hard to believe that some people here are blaming the FA's. Let us not forget that it was the customer who did bring the disruption, or started fighting with another passenger, or drunk his own alcohol... FA's face many difficult situations, for which there are very things we can do at 33,000ft.
FA are not the problem, passengers are. That is my opinion.
Flying Together
 
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zeke
Posts: 14387
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 8:58 am

ILUVDC10S wrote:
1. If your plane aint 100 percent why is it in the air that MEL crap is a excuse not to get a mechanic and FIX IT ! DAYUM! stop kicking the can down the road buckle up and fix it !


It may no be fixable, not all mechanics can do all work. For example you leave your main base and in flight it is observed the pressure gauge on a slide raft is not indicating, you arrive at your outstation and the mechanic there either is not qualified to carry out that repair, or does not have the parts. The aircraft can be dispatched back to a main base where it can be repaired under the MEL with a reduced seating capacity.

ILUVDC10S wrote:
wait you mean you just admitted that buying that 777 or 330 was a mistake LOL regretting sending your 747's off to the desert huh ?


You have lost me on that one, can you explain what you mean ?

ILUVDC10S wrote:
The plane should be stocked with extra safety cards and life vests so that is not a excuse and every station should have supplies like that too in event a plane needs them.
Oh yes its a two way contract however the airlines think its a one way contract all about them and only about them .


We do carry spares onboard, however sometime the THEFT of that safety equipment on a single sector from the aircraft exceeds the spares available (I have had over 20 life jackets stolen on a single sector), so you may have no choice but to leave with empty seats. Personally I think every time I see them on ebay/craigs list/gumtree etc for sale, the person selling them should be arrested for theft.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
smokeybandit
Posts: 1223
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 10:37 am

How many hundreds of thousands of passengers fly each day?

Compare that with how many of these incidents occur?
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7478
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 11:15 am

I think FAA/airlines should change announcement to passengers should follow crews LEGAL but not commercially motivated instructions.

In DL incident, it is still not clear why a infant cannot be in FAA approved car seat.

Also "you both will go to jail and your kids to foster home" is totally inappropriate.
 
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zeke
Posts: 14387
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 11:24 am

I think passengers should follow their conditions of carriage that they agreed to

E.g. http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/ ... e-dgr.html
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
jeffrey1970
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2001 1:41 am

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 11:54 am

wjcandee wrote:
In my view, the fastest way to eliminate this huge public relations nightmare that keeps coming up again and again is to eliminate the essential cause of the problem. And in my view, that is the fact the flight attendants and gate agents have been overempowered, and insufficiently trained, relating to the threat of arrest. Every single one of these events occurred because a gate agent or flight attendant used that threat, and in some cases then called law enforcement. Unless the person is drunk and hitting people or is a material threat to flight safety, and not just someone that the flight attendant feels is refusing their trivial instruction, the threat of arrest should not be used. In today's political environment, where people feel empowered to fight the police on a regular basis, flight attendants should knock it off when it comes to threatening arrest over trivial crap. Airlines should recognize that threatening arrest today does nothing more than inflame the situation , and caused the kinds of problems they are now experiencing. Flight attendants clearly also need to be retrained regarding the FARs, like that Delta flight attendant who threatened somebody with arrest over her wrong interpretation of FAA guidelines.

If I were Oscar, I would send an edict down from on high that anybody that threatens to have the customer arrested will be terminated, unless it is a truly meaningful safety of flight issue.

The problem here is that gate agents and flight attendants have a wide variety of personalities. Most would not be inclined to threaten arrest, but the few imperious disgruntled self-righteous sanctimonious jerks that pull that out do a huge disservice to the airline. Take that threat away from them, and they will have to handle the situation the way most people do, which is by negotiation and respectfully.

Put simply, the Cartman's of the world, "RESPECT MAH AUTHORI-TAY!!", never get much of anywhere.





You do not know about the situations where passengers are the ones at fault. Remember there are at least two sides to every story, and then there is the truth.
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
Sancho99504
Posts: 659
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:44 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 11:59 am

This current situation with Delta in OGG has me really peaved. Sadly, with employees being recorded misquoting regulations and not knowing what they're talking about is why Delta chose to apologize and add more fuel to the fire with the "passengers can do what ever they want because we don't want negative publicity and to have to pay out". Had that agent double checked and went on board and explained exactly why they couldn't do what they were doing and why they were being asked to step off the aircraft, the official release from Delta would have been far different. That family was so far in the wrong, it's sad that they were given additional compensation. Due to their actions, they got refunded anyway and had to fly United out because they're not longer able to book Delta.

So many people are quick to jump to conclusions and blame everyone else except the instigator.
It seems that in the future, to avoid the video cameras and depending on the specific situation, Delta will very well deplane and reboard the aircraft to remove problem individuals.
Just last night, a pair of drunk passengers assaulted agents and as soon as cameras came out, aircraft was deplaned, 2 passengers isolated and everyone else got back on and plane left .. .
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9193
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 12:09 pm

zeke wrote:
I think passengers should follow their conditions of carriage that they agreed to

E.g. http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/ ... e-dgr.html


And airlines should understand that their is COC is a civil contract. So if the passenger seats in his assigned seat, and the airline thinks it has the right to take this seat and put somebody else in it, than there should be the normal way civil disagreements are resolved, the airline should sue the passenger and as every passenger is told here on a.net, after the fact. And than a court decides, the way any normal conflict is resolved, who is right.

The airline should be able to only use this one thread, we will sue you.

The airlines are behaving like the have the power, only given to government, to use violence, or the threat to use violence, to resolve a civil disagreement. That would be not acceptable as a way to resolve a dispute by the passenger, but it should neither be an acceptable way for an airline to resolve a dispute.
 
HBJZA
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:23 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 12:12 pm

What an ignorant thread. Passengers are the one to blame and the only ones. Seat belt sign is on means seat belt must be fastened. No possible argument. Your phone must be on flight mode for take off, DO it and no one will ever discuss with you Mr Baldwin or Mr Everybody, no matter how famous you are. 99,99999% of passengers on every flight do behave as they should and happily fly unnoticed. So stop reading the stupid media buzz....
 
TerminalD
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:32 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 12:56 pm

ikramerica wrote:
umass1 wrote:
Trivial instructions...No instruction that a F/A gives to a passenger is trivial. It's usually for the passengers safety, or the safety of another passenger. Unless a F/A is on a power trip, the instructions should not be classified as trivial. Everything else you mentioned I agree with. The threat of arrest should never be used. Maybe the threat of being removed from the flight would hopefully be enough.

There are plenty of trivial instructions.

I was listening to Lou dobbs commentary today and he was basically saying that the airline industry is an instrument of a fascist state. That the FAA and DHS empowers civilians and minor security personnel with authoritative powers (do as I say no matter what or you are arrested) makes them a de facto governmental arm, and there is so much abuse at this point that you are left with the choice of not traveling or being subject to detainment at any time.

It's not the only area that is turning fascist. The schools/universities are as well. They are elevating trivial transgressions to crimes, and when not prosecuted as such, the "crimes" are then handled internally resulting in the ruination of lives without recourse.

America. "Do as we say or else."

Sadly I agree...and it has been worsening over the last 8 years.

I wonder if "obey all crew member instructions" should be "obey all safety related crew member instructions".
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9193
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 1:01 pm

Here is everything put in one heap. If there is a law or a regulation, like having to be in your seat with the seat belt on, when the seat belt sigh is on, that is a completely different case from the airlines COC allowing them to sell your booked, paid for, assigned seat and claim that after you boarded. One is safety related and one not. One is to keep to regulation and the other is enforcing a civil contract, completely different situations.

Apart from the above, why is it so unthinkable, that the crew is arranging for people who need it, to go to the toilet while stuck on the tarmac waiting for take off. There are people with certain condition that just can not wait. What is a reasonable waiting period, 30 minutes could perhaps be a limit, 90 minutes is definitive over the line. A competent crew should be able to do something.

Of course people should be removed if drunk, violent and so on and I have not seen law enforcement not doing its job there. and crew is aloud to restrain violent persons in the air. But are this cases of violent behaviour in flight really that common, or are here also few examples blown up over every proportion. And here is from the crew side often pointed to verbal violence, like the guy who was cold on the flight to Hawaii.

I think here is a serious double standard how the actions of airlines and their staff are viewed here compared to passengers.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9894
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 1:08 pm

zeke wrote:
guyanam wrote:
Some one paid their money for a seat. The airline overbooks. Why should a passenger who is already seated and refuses to disembark be punished? This is the airline's problem and they need to absorb the loss. They overbook, hoping that a given % of passengers don't show. When that doesn't work out its their problem. Not that of passengers already boarded.


This is a common misconception held by the public, the purchase of a ticket does not purchase a right to a seat on a particular flight.


That just about sums up the problem. The public is not on a.net and doesn't know the rules. For most people getting on a plane is no different then getting on bus. And while I agree that ignorance is not an excuse, regardless of what the law says, in the court of public opinion and even in the real court airlines are losing and will continue to lose until they change their attitude. Hiding behind a law that no one really knows isn't giving them any wins. People with jobs in a customer service positions needs to go back and learn how to provide customer service rather than just learn how to regurgitate the rules and threaten those who pay their salaries. And yes, even when they are assholes. Because you know what? Even if the customer is the a-hole, there are 200 other customers nearby and a few cameras that are not getting the full story and in their eyes it's the company employee who is being an a-hole. And you can be sure that in court, if it comes to that a jury will always side with the passenger.
 
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zeke
Posts: 14387
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 1:13 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
And airlines should understand that their is COC is a civil contract.


In part that is correct, however there are aspects of the contract which merely repeats what is in federal legislation. Problem is most passengers are ignorant of what is in the conditions, and also what is in the law.

I have a lot of sympathy for what passengers go through, remember as crew a lot of us pass through security sometimes multiple times a day. Once I sat down and worked out how much of my life is wasted doing security checks. I can see how people would get sick of being told what to do, being poked, prodded, asked rude questions "where are you going", getting half undressed in public, throwing 80% of a tube of toothpaste away, laptop in your bag, laptop out of your bag, ipad in your bag, ipad out of your bag, shoes on, shoes off, belt on, belt off.

When the finally get on the aircraft they let their guard down thinking that it is all over. Then a simple iniquitous request sometimes gets an adverse reaction, not due to the request, all the buildup that happened before they get onboard. Cabin crew are not unreasonable people, they do get lot of very worked up people to deal with when boarding because of everything that happened before they got on the aircraft. None of that is the airlines problem, nor the crews problem.

mjoelnir wrote:
The airlines are behaving like the have the power, only given to government, to use violence, or the threat to use violence, to resolve a civil disagreement.


My understand of the removal of the doctor, it was not the airline that removed the passenger.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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RL777
Posts: 649
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:43 am

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 1:19 pm

zeke wrote:
guyanam wrote:
Some one paid their money for a seat. The airline overbooks. Why should a passenger who is already seated and refuses to disembark be punished? This is the airline's problem and they need to absorb the loss. They overbook, hoping that a given % of passengers don't show. When that doesn't work out its their problem. Not that of passengers already boarded.


This is a common misconception held by the public, the purchase of a ticket does not purchase a right to a seat on a particular flight. There are many reasons why a passenger may not be carried on a flight, could be the original aircraft that was to do the flight went technical and the had to replace it with an aircraft of small capacity, there maybe a CDL or MEL that requires the aircraft to leave with less than all seats filled, someone on the previous flight might have stolen the safety cards or life jacket, the performance off a runway maybe insufficient may not be sufficient, weather at the destination may require additional fuel which means payload needs to be offloaded, or there maybe more people wanting to travel on a flight than there are seats.

Your contractual agreement with the carrier is outlined in the "conditions of carriage", it covers many things including check in and carry on baggage allocations, your behavior, your dress code, and your agreement to comply with employee/agents requests. When you purchase a ticket, you agree that you are willing to comply with those conditions of carriage, that becomes a two way contract.

Cabin crew never have the power to arrest other that would would be conferred upon any member of the public to make a citizens arrest, even the captain cannot arrest anyone on the ground with the doors open. I would never let cabin crew to get involved with a dispute on the ground, leave that to the ground staff. I need my crew to be there for their primary job that is the safety and security of the cabin and passengers, you cannot have the passengers trust in my view if there is an adversarial atmosphere between passengers and crew.


Spot on.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3399
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 1:34 pm

At one time you did generally buy a seat on a particular flight, airline and passenger could both alter the ticket. Airlines took advantage of 9-11 to reduce that right significantly. Mostly to set up a system where they can charge sometimes horrendous 'gotcha' fees for any changes made by the passenger. Airlines want to compensate with vouchers which are, historically IIRC, only about 70% used because airlines put innumerable escape hatches so they don't have to honor them. I figure I will be abused on about 20-35% of the flights I fly on (WN and the non US airlines I have used excepted). I never complain - that is how airlines are.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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CALTECH
Posts: 3345
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 4:21 am

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sat May 06, 2017 1:41 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
In my view, the fastest way to eliminate this huge public relations nightmare that keeps coming up again and again is to eliminate the essential cause of the problem.


I agree, but the source of the problem is non-compliance with crewmember instructions.

Unless the instructions given are illegal, immoral, unethical, or compromise safety, while onboard the aircraft you comply first, and appeal/grieve it later.


I admire how well Gate Agents and Flight Attendants hold it together day after day, especially with this wave of folks who believe they can do what they want and don't have to comply with instructions. Once a passenger does not follow instructions, what would happen in a emergency ? Wouldn't trust that individual to do the right thing when it counted......
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