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zeke
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 2:23 am

wjcandee wrote:
Legally, I think the airline had the right to deboard him, but exercising that right, in the manner they did, was just stupid, and it was part of their policy to do it that way, so their policy was stupid and it's what got them in trouble. They had an absolutely no way exhausted all possible ways of getting the guy off the plane voluntarily. They hadn't even gone to the maximum amount that they would have had to pay them in cash to get off once they involuntarily deported him. That's what makes this so crazy.


I agree with what you are saying, I believe that had the right, but it was not the bestway to go about things. Four people were asked to leave, 3, including the doctors wife did so. There is two sides to this, the airline also had a responsibility to the remainder of the passengers, and the passengers that the additional crew members were needed for. According to the police report that was obtained under freedom of information the good doctor also stated he would self harm.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 2:40 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
$250 change fee on a $300 ticket. What use?

You cannot take worst practices of every industry and put in one 29 page fine print no one can read.


Then show up for your flight.


They did.

He wouldn't have argued if this daylight robbery (ie., selling the seat he paid for, to someone else) didn't occur right in-front of his eyes.


No, "HE" didn't. "HE" took a different flight. "HE" never had "HIS" ticket changed to a different passenger. "HE" never checked in. Therefore, they assumed "HE" wasn't on the flight and so resold the seat that "HE" apparently didn't care to show up for.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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qf789
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 4:43 am

Please keep the discussion on topic. For those asking about why their posts have been deleted you are required to contact the moderators at [email protected] and make sure you quote the thread and user name. For those asking post deletion emails should be up and running in the near future, though I can not state exactly when, its being currently worked on by the developers.
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XLA2008
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 5:18 am

While I understand both sides of the argument, I am a flight attendant, the threat of arrest towards a passenger should only really be used if there is a direct threat to aircraft or passenger safety... non compliance with crew for basic safety regulations for example; not putting your seatbelt on or refusing to put your seatbelt on is a direct threat to passenger safety, if the aircraft was to have a hard landing or have an accident the person not wearing their belt could cause serious injury to other passengers... however some of the stuff in the media recently just seems to me like flight attendants abusing their rights as crew onboard and going straight to an extreme rather than trying to handle the situation in an appropriate way. Just my two cents worth
“For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.“
 
Sancho99504
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 6:09 am

AngMoh wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
If a passenger no-shows, the ticket is canceled and returned as a credit to the passenger. It can then be used by the passenger, minus change fees within one year of issuance. If the passenger fails to use it, that's their problem. And yes, sometimes the change fee is more than the fare, but nobody complains about hotels that do the same thing.


For normal non-flexible fares which everyone buys:

* If a passenger no-shows, the ticket is cancelled, the fare is forfeited, no refund is made and a no-show fee of up to $200 is charged to the passenger.
* If a passenger misses the flight and turns up late, the ticket is cancelled, the fare is forfeited, no refund is made but there is no additional charge.
* If a passenger misses the flight due to a missed connection, late incoming flight etc, the airline will try to accommodate the passenger on the best alternative.

For flexible, refundable fares (which only business buy because the cost at least twice as much as the non-flexible fares)

* If a passenger no-shows, a no-show fee of up to $200 is charged to the passenger as well as either a refund fee or a change fee,
* If a passenger misses the flight and turns up late, a refund fee or a change fee is charged but there is no additional no-show charge.
* If a passenger misses the flight due to a missed connection, late incoming flight etc, the airline will try to accommodate the passenger on the best alternative.

Overbooking has no justification.

The rules stated by Zeke enable the airline to handle a situation which is beyond its control. But was is happening if you describe it in your cinema example, is that someone turns up at the cinema with a valid ticket, but the cinema decided that another movie was more profitable so last minute they cancelled the unpopular movie and changed it with the popular movie. And they do it by abusing the rule which is in place to manage the case where the projector broke and could not be repaired on time.

I noticed the my SQ ticket has a specific warning about "overbooking in the USA" and advice how to handle this. It specifically refers to intentional overbooking by the airline and not an equipment downgrade due to operational issues. This ticket was issued about a month before the dr. Dao incident so it is not a response to that incident. It also implies that this is an issue specific to the USA.

I don't know what airline you fly or where you live, but you're wrong.
If you no-show, the fare is not forfeited, it is treated like a cancelation of a non-refundable ticket. The value of the fare is available for the passenger to use for future travel, up to one year from the date of issuance minus applicable fare difference and a change fee.
As far as someone showing up late and missing their flight, it's called the flat tire rule, which means that they will attempt to accommodate you on the next available flight with no change fee.
And most airlines will try to work with you, either by waiving the change fee or fare difference as long as you're not being a pompous ass.......

At least that's how it works at AA, DL and AS, of which I have worked for 2 of them and have or have had elite status on all 3.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
Sancho99504
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 6:13 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

Then show up for your flight.


They did.

He wouldn't have argued if this daylight robbery (ie., selling the seat he paid for, to someone else) didn't occur right in-front of his eyes.


No, "HE" didn't. "HE" took a different flight. "HE" never had "HIS" ticket changed to a different passenger. "HE" never checked in. Therefore, they assumed "HE" wasn't on the flight and so resold the seat that "HE" apparently didn't care to show up for.

Just to add more, he apparently went same day standby, which he made an earlier flight, so his seat was forfeited and whether or not dtw2hyd likes it or not, wasn't resold to anyone as the the seat was no longer occupied.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 6:43 am

Sancho99504 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

They did.

He wouldn't have argued if this daylight robbery (ie., selling the seat he paid for, to someone else) didn't occur right in-front of his eyes.


No, "HE" didn't. "HE" took a different flight. "HE" never had "HIS" ticket changed to a different passenger. "HE" never checked in. Therefore, they assumed "HE" wasn't on the flight and so resold the seat that "HE" apparently didn't care to show up for.

Just to add more, he apparently went same day standby, which he made an earlier flight, so his seat was forfeited and whether or not dtw2hyd likes it or not, wasn't resold to anyone as the the seat was no longer occupied.


So are you saying that a second ticket was NOT purchased? I'm just trying to be clear. Where did you hear this clarification from?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Sancho99504
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 6:48 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

No, "HE" didn't. "HE" took a different flight. "HE" never had "HIS" ticket changed to a different passenger. "HE" never checked in. Therefore, they assumed "HE" wasn't on the flight and so resold the seat that "HE" apparently didn't care to show up for.

Just to add more, he apparently went same day standby, which he made an earlier flight, so his seat was forfeited and whether or not dtw2hyd likes it or not, wasn't resold to anyone as the the seat was no longer occupied.


So are you saying that a second ticket was NOT purchased? I'm just trying to be clear. Where did you hear this clarification from?

From what I'm hearing from some people at DL, yes, no 2nd ticket purchased. As far as it looks, there are so many other things that preceeded the video event, Delta is trying to get this out of the media asap and the red coat who was threatening the passengers and giving incorrect information no longer works for the company........
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 8:39 am

Sancho99504 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
Just to add more, he apparently went same day standby, which he made an earlier flight, so his seat was forfeited and whether or not dtw2hyd likes it or not, wasn't resold to anyone as the the seat was no longer occupied.


So are you saying that a second ticket was NOT purchased? I'm just trying to be clear. Where did you hear this clarification from?

From what I'm hearing from some people at DL, yes, no 2nd ticket purchased. As far as it looks, there are so many other things that preceeded the video event, Delta is trying to get this out of the media asap and the red coat who was threatening the passengers and giving incorrect information no longer works for the company........


Good and good. As frustrating as it is for front line employees when the company crumbles and offers compensation etc in some of these situations, it's better than being all over the news. And weeding out the people who horribly mishandle these things is not necessarily a bad thing either. At least it shows a willingness on the part of the airline to address the problem.

I just hate to see the passenger be rewarded if they were actually the ones causing the entire issue. It's hard to know, though, what res/counter/gate agents may have said or implied along the way.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 9:51 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
He wasn't involuntarily denied boarding. He was boarded. Involuntary denied boarding has a specific meaning.


Yes he was. "Boarding" continues to take place until the aircraft door is closed; that never occurred here.


Yes here we have the defender of the right of airlines to screw over their passengers.

It is completely uninteresting if boarding was not completed according to some arcane definition of the airline. The only interesting view would be the court of law deciding if the passenger has boarded. Wisely UA, to protect their CoC did not test your interpretation in court.
 
lat41
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 11:25 am

Embajador3 wrote:
I find hard to believe that some people here are blaming the FA's. Let us not forget that it was the customer who did bring the disruption, or started fighting with another passenger, or drunk his own alcohol... FA's face many difficult situations, for which there are very things we can do at 33,000ft.
FA are not the problem, passengers are. That is my opinion.

Thank you. Far too much is being said about the sins of the airline employees/flight crews and far too little about the degradation in the behavior of passengers. Over the past few years especially, I have noticed passengers becoming more and more huffy, defiant, self important, ruder and what I like to call " deliberately dumb" from check-in, through TSA screening, boarding and on the aircraft. Sometimes this may be magnified by a few preflight cocktails or meds. Of course when these scrapes or confrontations occur surely, it's the fault of someone else.
 
strfyr51
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 11:39 am

'In Honesty? I work for an airline and this could have been handled more smoothly than this. Simply cancel the flight deplane the passengers and baggage. move the airplane to another gate. and renumber the flight. while we Identify the offending passenger and stop him from boarding the next flight by refunding his/her ticket. There's Nothing that says we Have to carry a Buttwipe passenger OR ANY abusive passenger for that matter. We're Not on your airplane. You're on OURS!!
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 11:50 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
No, "HE" didn't. "HE" took a different flight. "HE" never had "HIS" ticket changed to a different passenger. "HE" never checked in. Therefore, they assumed "HE" wasn't on the flight and so resold the seat that "HE" apparently didn't care to show up for.


The guy who paid for the ticket is right there, holding the ticket, sure the self-regulated industry makes even daylight robbery legal.

May be congress should make assigning a seat mandatory at the time of booking (or) at least make it illegal to charge change fee if the seat is sold to someone else.

As always, this boils down to creative accounting.
 
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zeke
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 12:11 pm

It is difficult to see how the courts would view an assigned seat, many airlines already let you choose your seat when you book.

In some jurisdictions (and I am not talking just USA centric) courts may look at the purchase of an airline ticket in terms of offer and acceptance.

The court may take the view that because obligations were excluded until the person turned up at the aircraft, issuing a ticket/booking/reservation amounted to issuing an offer, but it is not itself the completion of a contract.

So I am not sure what additional protections that in itself would/could add.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 1:02 pm

COC should be written by a government approved agency with airline, passenger, FAA, airport, TSA and international input. Enforcement involving any confrontation should be by an independent arbitrator/person. FAs should not be put in the position of physically enforcing policy. Sometimes a passenger is an ass, sometimes a flight crew person is the ass, sometimes the TSA agent. The arbitrator is a skilled person who generally can defuse the situation - and has the authority to call police enforcement.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
dtw9
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 1:44 pm

DocLightning wrote:
roadpilot wrote:
let the cattle fight among themselves


If you work for an airline, I would do anything in my power to make sure your HR department sees that line. I'm sure they will be very interested to know that an employee thinks of paying customers as "cattle."



I guess you never saw this ad Doc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLOSZQRz9qA
 
Planetalk
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 2:29 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
'In Honesty? I work for an airline and this could have been handled more smoothly than this. Simply cancel the flight deplane the passengers and baggage. move the airplane to another gate. and renumber the flight. while we Identify the offending passenger and stop him from boarding the next flight by refunding his/her ticket. There's Nothing that says we Have to carry a Buttwipe passenger OR ANY abusive passenger for that matter. We're Not on your airplane. You're on OURS!!


Well done for summing up the exact problem with the industry in the US, this kind of attitude. You do realise passengers are the only reason your precious airline and your job, and your wage exist? Passengers paid for 'your' airplane.

In any case paraphrase you, plenty of passengers have identified the offending airline and wont be boarding the next flight. I don't get how you have a situation where airline staff call the police to arret someone who as some NOTHING WRONG and you still call him the offender. How far gone are some of you? You really want to live in a place where corporations can arbitrarily use their power to have people arrested? I know a few countries like that, I thought the USA didn't look to the as models for how to run civil society...
 
mjoelnir
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 6:28 pm

zeke wrote:
It is difficult to see how the courts would view an assigned seat, many airlines already let you choose your seat when you book.

In some jurisdictions (and I am not talking just USA centric) courts may look at the purchase of an airline ticket in terms of offer and acceptance.

The court may take the view that because obligations were excluded until the person turned up at the aircraft, issuing a ticket/booking/reservation amounted to issuing an offer, but it is not itself the completion of a contract.

So I am not sure what additional protections that in itself would/could add.


Usually an offer becomes an contract at the latest when payment is made. As all air travel is prepaid, I do not see were there is your way out for the airline to look at a paid up contract as an offer. When it comes to boarding the passenger has done his part of the contract, payment, all that is left is the airline part, transporting the passenger.
 
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zeke
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 6:52 pm

Some courts (again not being USA centric) are of the view that still does not create a contract, as a passenger can reject the offer be asking for a refund.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
manny
Posts: 563
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 6:53 pm

airtran737 wrote:
There's a simple solution and that is when the passengers get out of hand, we as pilots declare a safety of flight issue and walk off the aircraft until a satisfactory resolution is found. There is no room for the kind of behavior that has been happening on aircraft as of late by both passengers and crew members.


This statement just shows how little airline employees care for their customers who pay their salaries. The level of arrogance shown by airline employees is just mind boggling, Its attitude like these that manifest itself in airline employees thinking its ok to have customers dragged of the aircraft because of their screw ups or its ok to threaten someone with jail time. Passengers are treated as an inconvenience.

And there might be a few good employees who care but at this point they are too few and far between.
 
Sancho99504
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 6:56 pm

lat41 wrote:
Embajador3 wrote:
I find hard to believe that some people here are blaming the FA's. Let us not forget that it was the customer who did bring the disruption, or started fighting with another passenger, or drunk his own alcohol... FA's face many difficult situations, for which there are very things we can do at 33,000ft.
FA are not the problem, passengers are. That is my opinion.

Thank you. Far too much is being said about the sins of the airline employees/flight crews and far too little about the degradation in the behavior of passengers. Over the past few years especially, I have noticed passengers becoming more and more huffy, defiant, self important, ruder and what I like to call " deliberately dumb" from check-in, through TSA screening, boarding and on the aircraft. Sometimes this may be magnified by a few preflight cocktails or meds. Of course when these scrapes or confrontations occur surely, it's the fault of someone else.

Sadly, it's society in general. I mean heck, you see it at Subway. People getting mad, impatient or frustrated because "it's taking too long" even though they only have room for 2 people to make sandwiches, there are 15 people in front of them who can't be bothered to look at the menu until it's their turn, etc etc but will patiently wait 20 minutes to get an overpriced, mediocre cup of coffee at Starbucks.....the school was try to teach my kid and her classmates that it's okay to act out and be defiant if they don't like something....she's no longer at that school. I mean they told her that she didn't have to listen to her parents because it's 2017, not 1955 and girls don't have to do chores because it's sexism. Just look at Antifa. It's only going to get worse and I feel for all the people and businesses that deal with customers on a direct level because of fear of overlegislation from people in Washington trying to score a vote instead of looking at the problem and finding a real solution.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
manny
Posts: 563
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 6:58 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

Then show up for your flight.

kind of
They did.

He wouldn't have argued if this daylight robbery (ie., selling the seat he paid for, to someone else) didn't occur right in-front of his eyes.


No, "HE" didn't. "HE" took a different flight. "HE" never had "HIS" ticket changed to a different passenger. "HE" never checked in. Therefore, they assumed "HE" wasn't on the flight and so resold the seat that "HE" apparently didn't care to show up for.


But there was a story where a woman tried to change her very own name on the ticket after getting married and was asked to pay astronomical amounts of money for just changing her name on the ticket. That is why a lot many passengers shy away from making changes. If i buy a ticket and want the ticket reassigned to somebody else in my traveling party, I should be able to do so without incurring any cost. Otherwise do not sell the seat i am paid for as long as someone or everyone from my ticket booking has checked on the aircraft. But you cannot have it both ways.


That is why we need to laws to prevent this.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 8:53 pm

zeke wrote:
Some courts (again not being USA centric) are of the view that still does not create a contract, as a passenger can reject the offer be asking for a refund.


As the passenger has paid, the contract is agreed upon. There is no way that something is still just an offer, if payment has been made. After that, the passenger does not reject the offer, but wants to terminate the contract if he does not want to fly. If the date or time is changed the contract is changed.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2516
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 9:11 pm

manny wrote:
If i buy a ticket and want the ticket reassigned to somebody else in my traveling party, I should be able to do so without incurring any cost.


You don't get to decide this, the airline does. No business allows customers to set their policies or pricing. What you get to decide is whether you want to do business with that airline or not.

And by the way, some tickets can be transferred without a fee. It's the lowest fare tickets that clearly say "non-refundable and non-transferrable" on them. Part of the reason that low fare tickets are low is that the airline knows they don't have to deal with whether you will show up for the flight you booked or want to change your reservation -- the seat on that flight is sold, for you it's use it or lose it. If you want the flexibility to change the person, time, or day of travel, then stop whining and pay for a changeable ticket.
 
manny
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 10:02 pm

IPFreely wrote:
manny wrote:
If i buy a ticket and want the ticket reassigned to somebody else in my traveling party, I should be able to do so without incurring any cost.


You don't get to decide this, the airline does. No business allows customers to set their policies or pricing. What you get to decide is whether you want to do business with that airline or not.


Who makes the decision, who gets to decide ? It shouldn't be the airline. With reduced competition as a result of all the mega mergers customers do not have a choice. These are massive oligopolies. In which situation there needs to be laws that do not allow the airline to defy common sense. That is why we need consumer protection laws.

Again goes back to, If i buy a ticket and want the ticket reassigned to somebody else in my traveling party, I should be able to do so without incurring any cost. Now if you say we do not want to retransfer than do not sell the seat i paid for as long as someone or everyone from my ticket booking has checked on the aircraft. But you cannot have it both ways.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9211
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 10:25 pm

IPFreely wrote:
manny wrote:
If i buy a ticket and want the ticket reassigned to somebody else in my traveling party, I should be able to do so without incurring any cost.


You don't get to decide this, the airline does. No business allows customers to set their policies or pricing. What you get to decide is whether you want to do business with that airline or not.

And by the way, some tickets can be transferred without a fee. It's the lowest fare tickets that clearly say "non-refundable and non-transferrable" on them. Part of the reason that low fare tickets are low is that the airline knows they don't have to deal with whether you will show up for the flight you booked or want to change your reservation -- the seat on that flight is sold, for you it's use it or lose it. If you want the flexibility to change the person, time, or day of travel, then stop whining and pay for a changeable ticket.


And exactly those seats are the ones the airlines overbook. Because that are the travellers lowest on the totem pole and they get to be denied boarding.
 
2175301
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 10:46 pm

manny wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
manny wrote:
If i buy a ticket and want the ticket reassigned to somebody else in my traveling party, I should be able to do so without incurring any cost.


You don't get to decide this, the airline does. No business allows customers to set their policies or pricing. What you get to decide is whether you want to do business with that airline or not.


Who makes the decision, who gets to decide ? It shouldn't be the airline. With reduced competition as a result of all the mega mergers customers do not have a choice. These are massive oligopolies. In which situation there needs to be laws that do not allow the airline to defy common sense. That is why we need consumer protection laws.

Again goes back to, If i buy a ticket and want the ticket reassigned to somebody else in my traveling party, I should be able to do so without incurring any cost. Now if you say we do not want to retransfer than do not sell the seat i paid for as long as someone or everyone from my ticket booking has checked on the aircraft. But you cannot have it both ways.


IPFreely: No one is changing the price of the ticket the airline sets. The Airline set the price and someone paid it. Many Many Many Businesses do this and then allow people to transfer that ticket to another (and the people are fee to resell those tickets as well - at a loss or at a profit to them individually). Movie theaters, sporting events, arts performances, etc. In fact - it is standard practice and only the airlines seem to have created an exception for themselves (and as we have recently learned: there is no Federal Law or Rule that prevents reassignment of a purchased ticket to another).

manny: I view your position as not totally correct either as the Airlines are required to submit passenger names to a security clearance center and track the names of passengers on a flight. There is a cost to do that; and I suspect that overall the cost is on the order of $5.00 US or less. As such, what I think would be reasonable would say be a $10 fee for reassigning tickets. However, I don't think you would be posting here on this issue if in fact only a minimal change fee existed to cover such cost.

As for the original topic: I have to agree. FA and other Airline employees need to be trained so that they no longer use the threat of arrest; or if they do that there is an investigation into the situation to determine if this was truly one of the rare cases where that might actually apply. In my opinion, all that airline employees can tell people is that they are requesting the local police authorities to assist in resolving the issue. Let the police/DA office decide if a person is to be removed from an aircraft, arrested, and charged; and who should be told to mind their p's and q's. I note that in some cases it might be the airline employee that gets arrested. I agree with the original poster that while rare, there are cases where the airline employees are greatly exceeding their legal authority and are in fact the principal cause of an escalated issue.

Have a great day,
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2516
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 11:18 pm

2175301 wrote:
IPFreely: No one is changing the price of the ticket the airline sets. The Airline set the price and someone paid it. Many Many Many Businesses do this and then allow people to transfer that ticket to another (and the people are fee to resell those tickets as well - at a loss or at a profit to them individually). Movie theaters, sporting events, arts performances, etc. In fact - it is standard practice and only the airlines seem to have created an exception for themselves (and as we have recently learned: there is no Federal Law or Rule that prevents reassignment of a purchased ticket to another).


Low priced tickets are clearly marked "non-changeable and non-transferrable". Higher priced tickets allow changes. In the cases of a change from one traveller to another, it is allowed, yes, usually with a fee. But the name on the ticket must be changed and yes, this is federal law, and for good reason. There are many people -- known terrorists and such -- on the no-fly list who are not allowed to book airline tickets or board aircraft. If you buy a ticket and sell it to someone on the no-fly list without having the name changed on the ticket half of the safeguards that keep that person off a plane have now been circumvented. I know you want to believe your post is correct but it simply is not.
 
ubeema
Posts: 404
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:48 am

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 11:54 pm

zeke wrote:
I think passengers should follow their conditions of carriage that they agreed to

E.g. http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/ ... e-dgr.html


That makes sense. But you do know just like with software EULA most people hit purchase button and move on right.

If airlines are so keen about customers fully understanding CoC, do NOT allow them to purchase until they confirmed they read it.

Many software will not allow you to continue until you have at least viewed the entirety of EULA (i.e scroll all the way down).

To be even more nerdy, airline could enforce that you acknowledge every section of the CoC before purchase with a button. Even if there are 60.

If a disagreement occurs prior or during flight. The crew in charge can bring a tablet and show the customer which section of CoC applies to the case, and how they agreed to it.
 
AA767400
Posts: 1894
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Sun May 07, 2017 11:55 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
Please direct us to the portion of his condition of carriage that entitled the airline to remove Mr. Dao by legal force?


Ok.

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/conten ... aspx#sec21
RULE 21 REFUSAL OF TRANSPORT
UA shall have the right to refuse to transport or shall have the right to remove from the aircraft at any point, any Passenger for the following reasons:

Safety – Whenever refusal or removal of a Passenger may be necessary for the safety of such Passenger or other Passengers or members of the crew including, but not limited to:

Passengers who fail to comply with or interfere with the duties of the members of the flight crew, federal regulations, or security directives;


I thought people wasted thousands of posts explaining this, looks like you are repeating same hoping one day it will become fact.

Neither Ms.Power Trip nor Mr.Mall Security in police costume had legal right to remove Dr.Dao.

It was a commercially motivated illegal instruction, FA is at fault abusing federal regulations and Mall Security at fault wearing unauthorized uniform and dragging someone violently.

BTW, CAD Director lost his job trying to be smart at the hearing.


I didn't see one FA threatening Mr. Dao. The men who violently removed him from the aircraft were airport security, not police, or FAs. The agents called security. Big fail on UA's part for not handling the overbooking better.

Same for DL drama in OGG. Airport security came on, and threatened to arrest passengers, if the they didn't leave the aircraft. And that guy basically was trying to scam the airline, by using his older son's seat, who took an earlier flight the day before. Now, with a full flight, he was challenging another PAYING passenger for said seat. Acting as if he paid for that seat, for the younger child. That's why he was removed.

Was it ok for security to threaten him? No! But nowhere do I see FA's throwing people off, threatening them in any of these cases. Witch hunt much?

Flying in the U.S. has become bus travel. Why people are stuck on this 1960's glamor about flying is beyond me. People pay for transportation. If they got a smile from a FA, or agent, then great. But people think it's a flying Walgreens/5-star restaurant. Acting like they weren't properly catered to. It's a bus people!
"The low fares airline."
 
2175301
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Mon May 08, 2017 2:13 am

IPFreely wrote:
2175301 wrote:
IPFreely: No one is changing the price of the ticket the airline sets. The Airline set the price and someone paid it. Many Many Many Businesses do this and then allow people to transfer that ticket to another (and the people are fee to resell those tickets as well - at a loss or at a profit to them individually). Movie theaters, sporting events, arts performances, etc. In fact - it is standard practice and only the airlines seem to have created an exception for themselves (and as we have recently learned: there is no Federal Law or Rule that prevents reassignment of a purchased ticket to another).


Low priced tickets are clearly marked "non-changeable and non-transferrable". Higher priced tickets allow changes. In the cases of a change from one traveller to another, it is allowed, yes, usually with a fee. But the name on the ticket must be changed and yes, this is federal law, and for good reason. There are many people -- known terrorists and such -- on the no-fly list who are not allowed to book airline tickets or board aircraft. If you buy a ticket and sell it to someone on the no-fly list without having the name changed on the ticket half of the safeguards that keep that person off a plane have now been circumvented. I know you want to believe your post is correct but it simply is not.


I find it very informative that you intentionally deleted the next paragraph of my post in your reply that discussed that the Airline needed to submit the name of the new person for screening (which fully complies with the federal law), and there should be a reasonable charge for that.

Have a great day,
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2516
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Mon May 08, 2017 2:22 am

2175301 wrote:
I find it very informative that you intentionally deleted the next paragraph of my post in your reply that discussed that the Airline needed to submit the name of the new person for screening (which fully complies with the federal law), and there should be a reasonable charge for that.

Have a great day,


The fact that you believe airlines should be allowed to set their own ticket prices shows there is some hope that you understand how a free market economy works.

But airlines sell many ancillary services such as baggage, excess/overweight baggage, buy on board food, preferred boarding, preferred seating, changes to tickets, and more. The same free market economy that allows airlines to set ticket prices also allows airlines to set prices for all of these services. And it allows consumers to buy or decline to buy the service offered. But the consumer does not get to dictate the price to the seller. Maybe someday you will understand.
 
danj555
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:16 am

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Mon May 08, 2017 4:45 am

IPFreely wrote:
After the Dao incident, law enforcement is going to be reluctant to respond to calls for service that do not involve drunken or violent passengers or other criminal behaviour. And when they do respond and find the issue is a civil matter between the airline and customer and not a criminal matter, they're likely to enact a practice of leaving the scene immediately.


Dude I hope! Let the airlines and FAs eat it. Now you gotta pay loads to get them off or fly them like you are supposed to. Love the idea of a freshly neutered FA (in terms of the police not biting) having to serve drinks to that person!!
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Mon May 08, 2017 5:56 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
No, "HE" didn't. "HE" took a different flight. "HE" never had "HIS" ticket changed to a different passenger. "HE" never checked in. Therefore, they assumed "HE" wasn't on the flight and so resold the seat that "HE" apparently didn't care to show up for.


The guy who paid for the ticket is right there, holding the ticket, sure the self-regulated industry makes even daylight robbery legal.

May be congress should make assigning a seat mandatory at the time of booking (or) at least make it illegal to charge change fee if the seat is sold to someone else.

As always, this boils down to creative accounting.


1. Who paid is irrelevent because the ticket was in someone's name and that someone didn't show up.
2. The father never changed the name on the ticket so the system didn't know that the father was using the seat.
3. With an empty seat, they resold it.

Want to make it illegal to charge a name-change fee? Fine. I couldn't care less. That has nothing to do with this situation though.

manny wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
kind of
They did.

He wouldn't have argued if this daylight robbery (ie., selling the seat he paid for, to someone else) didn't occur right in-front of his eyes.


No, "HE" didn't. "HE" took a different flight. "HE" never had "HIS" ticket changed to a different passenger. "HE" never checked in. Therefore, they assumed "HE" wasn't on the flight and so resold the seat that "HE" apparently didn't care to show up for.


But there was a story where a woman tried to change her very own name on the ticket after getting married and was asked to pay astronomical amounts of money for just changing her name on the ticket. That is why a lot many passengers shy away from making changes. If i buy a ticket and want the ticket reassigned to somebody else in my traveling party, I should be able to do so without incurring any cost. Otherwise do not sell the seat i am paid for as long as someone or everyone from my ticket booking has checked on the aircraft. But you cannot have it both ways.


That is why we need to laws to prevent this.


This guy didn't say that he was avoiding changing the name due to a fee, so your story - while interesting - is irrelevant. Like I said above, if you want to get the law changed, fine, but that didn't affect what happened here. For what it's worth, if the dad actually avoided changing the name so as to not incur a fee, then he should accept full responsibility for what happened. I just don't think that's what went down though.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9211
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Mon May 08, 2017 6:21 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
No, "HE" didn't. "HE" took a different flight. "HE" never had "HIS" ticket changed to a different passenger. "HE" never checked in. Therefore, they assumed "HE" wasn't on the flight and so resold the seat that "HE" apparently didn't care to show up for.


The guy who paid for the ticket is right there, holding the ticket, sure the self-regulated industry makes even daylight robbery legal.

May be congress should make assigning a seat mandatory at the time of booking (or) at least make it illegal to charge change fee if the seat is sold to someone else.

As always, this boils down to creative accounting.


1. Who paid is irrelevent because the ticket was in someone's name and that someone didn't show up.
2. The father never changed the name on the ticket so the system didn't know that the father was using the seat.
3. With an empty seat, they resold it.

Want to make it illegal to charge a name-change fee? Fine. I couldn't care less. That has nothing to do with this situation though.

manny wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:



No, "HE" didn't. "HE" took a different flight. "HE" never had "HIS" ticket changed to a different passenger. "HE" never checked in. Therefore, they assumed "HE" wasn't on the flight and so resold the seat that "HE" apparently didn't care to show up for.


But there was a story where a woman tried to change her very own name on the ticket after getting married and was asked to pay astronomical amounts of money for just changing her name on the ticket. That is why a lot many passengers shy away from making changes. If i buy a ticket and want the ticket reassigned to somebody else in my traveling party, I should be able to do so without incurring any cost. Otherwise do not sell the seat i am paid for as long as someone or everyone from my ticket booking has checked on the aircraft. But you cannot have it both ways.


That is why we need to laws to prevent this.


This guy didn't say that he was avoiding changing the name due to a fee, so your story - while interesting - is irrelevant. Like I said above, if you want to get the law changed, fine, but that didn't affect what happened here. For what it's worth, if the dad actually avoided changing the name so as to not incur a fee, then he should accept full responsibility for what happened. I just don't think that's what went down though.


There it comes again, the law changed? What law, are we starting to compare the CoC of an airline with the law of the land?

It seems to me that defenders of the airlines practices are starting to get a bit inventive here any way.

It was the return journey, so they must have had tickets and seats on the way out. That means tickets for 3 adults and 2 toddlers. Now the son flies home earlier, how will that leave that the family suddenly with everything in confusion? If both toddlers were sitting on laps on the way out, than why should it not have been on the way home? If one toddler was in its own seat on the way out, why not on the way home? Did a child have a birthday while on vacation.? If there was a birthday on the vacation, why were the family not sold an extra seat on the way home, you have to supply the birthday when booking a toddler. I can understand that if they did not change the ticket of the older son to the child that was supposed to sit in the car seat that they would not be able to use that seat, but how does that lead to the family thrown out. Why were other passengers waiting for all the seats of the family?

IMO we have not got the full story how the gate agent tried to screw over the whole family.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Mon May 08, 2017 6:38 am

mjoelnir wrote:
IMO we have not got the full story how the gate agent tried to screw over the whole family.


Perish the thought.

The family decided that they'd prefer to have the child in a car seat rather than on their lap, so they purchased a ticket for the 18 year old on an earlier flight. That way they had a seat for their young child now versus holding him on their lap. The problem was that they didn't make the necessary changes so that they could retain the seat.

But - who knows. I think the way that the FA approached it with them was very unproductive, but unless we call for their head and absolve the passenger of any responsibility we are committing blasphemy apparently.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Mon May 08, 2017 6:55 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
727200 wrote:
. Listening to the 'customer is always right' crowd...


The "customer is always right" crowd? Nice. Then you wonder why the (international) travelling public prefers the likes of EK and SQ to crappy US airlines.


How can the customer always be right? That implies that the business/employee is always wrong. Clearly neither is true.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Mon May 08, 2017 7:06 am

Planetalk wrote:
This forum generally tends to side with corporations over people, the person is always wrong, they should just do as their told. And if they don't, well they deserve the authotiries coming on and beating them up, even though it was the airline in the wrong. It's really quite scary observing this because it is exactly one of the key parts of facism, which I thought the USA fought to free us all from 70 years ago.


I think this is over the top. Very few here want to see people getting beat up. Sure, some vocal posters make it sound that way but I don't get a sense that very many want to see those types of things taking place. What we are dealing with is some people thinking the world is better if everyone follows the rules and some people who think rules are somewhat optional. There is increasing tension in many situations because people are becoming more and more sensitive to it. I don't think it's an airline employee issue and I don't think it's a customer issue. I think it's societal. What we don't need is more rules. What we don't need is more cameras in people's faces. What we need is more patience, more grace, more understanding, and a desire to be the bigger person in a situation rather than see who can win at all costs.

dc9northwest wrote:
There is one easy solution to these problems: Allowing cabotage!


That would be bad for the American public. Foreign airlines would serve the key, lucrative city pairs which would cause a lot of harm to the domestic airlines. We would likely see reduced service to smaller cities while the big cities would reap the benefits.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9211
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Mon May 08, 2017 7:47 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
This forum generally tends to side with corporations over people, the person is always wrong, they should just do as their told. And if they don't, well they deserve the authotiries coming on and beating them up, even though it was the airline in the wrong. It's really quite scary observing this because it is exactly one of the key parts of facism, which I thought the USA fought to free us all from 70 years ago.


I think this is over the top. Very few here want to see people getting beat up. Sure, some vocal posters make it sound that way but I don't get a sense that very many want to see those types of things taking place. What we are dealing with is some people thinking the world is better if everyone follows the rules and some people who think rules are somewhat optional. There is increasing tension in many situations because people are becoming more and more sensitive to it. I don't think it's an airline employee issue and I don't think it's a customer issue. I think it's societal. What we don't need is more rules. What we don't need is more cameras in people's faces. What we need is more patience, more grace, more understanding, and a desire to be the bigger person in a situation rather than see who can win at all costs.

dc9northwest wrote:
There is one easy solution to these problems: Allowing cabotage!


That would be bad for the American public. Foreign airlines would serve the key, lucrative city pairs which would cause a lot of harm to the domestic airlines. We would likely see reduced service to smaller cities while the big cities would reap the benefits.


Some people think rules are for passengers and optional for corporations aka airlines. That is the main point here. When an airline behaves illegally, it is defended to the hilt on a.net. We exactly need more cameras.
We need to do away with the idea that the passengers should always back down, never get angry, never get loud and never under no circumstances use violence. But it being acceptable for an airline to use force to resolve a disagreement, let some goons beat up a passenger, threatening a passengers with arrest and the removal of the children to a foster home. All that not because of any safety problems, but because of the reading of a contract.
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 353
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Mon May 08, 2017 8:13 am

If airlines are so keen about customers fully understanding CoC, do NOT allow them to purchase until they confirmed they read it.


This sort of contract -- where the customer "has to" sign to function in daily life, and has no opportunity to negotiate terms -- is called a "contact of adhesion." Courts (in the US, anyway) are generally reluctant to enforce contracts of adhesion literally and will, to varying degrees, look to what they think the underlying bargain between the parties really was.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Mon May 08, 2017 9:16 am

mjoelnir wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
This forum generally tends to side with corporations over people, the person is always wrong, they should just do as their told. And if they don't, well they deserve the authotiries coming on and beating them up, even though it was the airline in the wrong. It's really quite scary observing this because it is exactly one of the key parts of facism, which I thought the USA fought to free us all from 70 years ago.


I think this is over the top. Very few here want to see people getting beat up. Sure, some vocal posters make it sound that way but I don't get a sense that very many want to see those types of things taking place. What we are dealing with is some people thinking the world is better if everyone follows the rules and some people who think rules are somewhat optional. There is increasing tension in many situations because people are becoming more and more sensitive to it. I don't think it's an airline employee issue and I don't think it's a customer issue. I think it's societal. What we don't need is more rules. What we don't need is more cameras in people's faces. What we need is more patience, more grace, more understanding, and a desire to be the bigger person in a situation rather than see who can win at all costs.

dc9northwest wrote:
There is one easy solution to these problems: Allowing cabotage!


That would be bad for the American public. Foreign airlines would serve the key, lucrative city pairs which would cause a lot of harm to the domestic airlines. We would likely see reduced service to smaller cities while the big cities would reap the benefits.


Some people think rules are for passengers and optional for corporations aka airlines. That is the main point here. When an airline behaves illegally, it is defended to the hilt on a.net. We exactly need more cameras.
We need to do away with the idea that the passengers should always back down, never get angry, never get loud and never under no circumstances use violence. But it being acceptable for an airline to use force to resolve a disagreement, let some goons beat up a passenger, threatening a passengers with arrest and the removal of the children to a foster home. All that not because of any safety problems, but because of the reading of a contract.


Thank you for illustrating one of the two points of view that I listed. I appreciate your assistance.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7530
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Mon May 08, 2017 11:05 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:

1. Who paid is irrelevent because the ticket was in someone's name and that someone didn't show up.
2. The father never changed the name on the ticket so the system didn't know that the father was using the seat.
3. With an empty seat, they resold it.

Want to make it illegal to charge a name-change fee? Fine. I couldn't care less. That has nothing to do with this situation though.


Have you ever tried to change any ticket. $200 name change fee and tack on the fare difference. Name change shouldn't be more than $30 to run it thru system.

Airline execs bit their tongue when asked about, how much it would cost to change a ticket.

If Dad wanted to game the system, he could have just checked in online, printed the BP and give all together to GA. 1960s IT system wouldn't have caught it anyway. The store bought bar code reader beeps at every and flashes red, which would be ignored by gate agents.

BTW, remember the cheapo mom who didn't pay for kids seat assignment to sit together, bill already passed.
 
airtran737
Posts: 3436
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Mon May 08, 2017 12:05 pm

manny wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
There's a simple solution and that is when the passengers get out of hand, we as pilots declare a safety of flight issue and walk off the aircraft until a satisfactory resolution is found. There is no room for the kind of behavior that has been happening on aircraft as of late by both passengers and crew members.


This statement just shows how little airline employees care for their customers who pay their salaries. The level of arrogance shown by airline employees is just mind boggling, Its attitude like these that manifest itself in airline employees thinking its ok to have customers dragged of the aircraft because of their screw ups or its ok to threaten someone with jail time. Passengers are treated as an inconvenience.

And there might be a few good employees who care but at this point they are too few and far between.


Sorry Manny, but there comes a point where the captain has to maintain control of his ship. The way I see it, is that these types of situations cause major interruptions, and my crew may not feel safe continuing. If they don't feel safe, then I don't feel safe, and we aren't going to close that door unless everyone has a warm fuzzy feeling about the flight. I don't need to spend the next couple hours wondering whether my crew is being harassed by passengers. Do you want your pilots distracted when they are trying to shoot a CAT 2 approach down to minimums with a crosswind? Probably not. Passengers are why we are here, but that does not give anyone the right to get on an airplane and lose their common sense.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
Planetalk
Posts: 465
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:12 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Mon May 08, 2017 2:35 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
This forum generally tends to side with corporations over people, the person is always wrong, they should just do as their told. And if they don't, well they deserve the authotiries coming on and beating them up, even though it was the airline in the wrong. It's really quite scary observing this because it is exactly one of the key parts of facism, which I thought the USA fought to free us all from 70 years ago.


I think this is over the top. Very few here want to see people getting beat up. Sure, some vocal posters make it sound that way but I don't get a sense that very many want to see those types of things taking place. What we are dealing with is some people thinking the world is better if everyone follows the rules and some people who think rules are somewhat optional. There is increasing tension in many situations because people are becoming more and more sensitive to it. I don't think it's an airline employee issue and I don't think it's a customer issue. I think it's societal. What we don't need is more rules. What we don't need is more cameras in people's faces. What we need is more patience, more grace, more understanding, and a desire to be the bigger person in a situation rather than see who can win at all costs.

dc9northwest wrote:
There is one easy solution to these problems: Allowing cabotage!


That would be bad for the American public. Foreign airlines would serve the key, lucrative city pairs which would cause a lot of harm to the domestic airlines. We would likely see reduced service to smaller cities while the big cities would reap the benefits.


And thank you for proving my point. I am nowhere saying the rules should be optional, and nor are other people who are defending the passengers. There is a constant assertion or implication that all the passengers in these situations had broken a rule or their CoC and that therefore the airline is always in the right. This simply isn't true, certainly in at least one case it was the airline breaking the rules. But for some reason people seem very casual about that, while spewing all sorts of bile at the passengers.

The proiblem with many people's position is that if you think the airline is entitled to call the cops and whatever follows whenever a passenegr is a bit inconvenient, then it has to work the other way round. So every time airline staff are not being quite helpful enough, not fulfilling the CoC (and this happens a lot in IRROPS for instance with regard to providing the legal accomodation, food etc.) should passengers be calling the police and having agents dragged out from behind their desk? If not, then you can't justify that for passengers unless they are a safety risk.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Mon May 08, 2017 4:45 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

1. Who paid is irrelevent because the ticket was in someone's name and that someone didn't show up.
2. The father never changed the name on the ticket so the system didn't know that the father was using the seat.
3. With an empty seat, they resold it.

Want to make it illegal to charge a name-change fee? Fine. I couldn't care less. That has nothing to do with this situation though.


Have you ever tried to change any ticket. $200 name change fee and tack on the fare difference. Name change shouldn't be more than $30 to run it thru system.

Airline execs bit their tongue when asked about, how much it would cost to change a ticket.

If Dad wanted to game the system, he could have just checked in online, printed the BP and give all together to GA. 1960s IT system wouldn't have caught it anyway. The store bought bar code reader beeps at every and flashes red, which would be ignored by gate agents.

BTW, remember the cheapo mom who didn't pay for kids seat assignment to sit together, bill already passed.


Good, so we are in agreement that there are avenues to get these things changed. In regards to changing the name on the ticket, I'm not sure what your point is - I already said if you want to see that rule changed, fine.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Mon May 08, 2017 4:50 pm

Planetalk wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
This forum generally tends to side with corporations over people, the person is always wrong, they should just do as their told. And if they don't, well they deserve the authotiries coming on and beating them up, even though it was the airline in the wrong. It's really quite scary observing this because it is exactly one of the key parts of facism, which I thought the USA fought to free us all from 70 years ago.


I think this is over the top. Very few here want to see people getting beat up. Sure, some vocal posters make it sound that way but I don't get a sense that very many want to see those types of things taking place. What we are dealing with is some people thinking the world is better if everyone follows the rules and some people who think rules are somewhat optional. There is increasing tension in many situations because people are becoming more and more sensitive to it. I don't think it's an airline employee issue and I don't think it's a customer issue. I think it's societal. What we don't need is more rules. What we don't need is more cameras in people's faces. What we need is more patience, more grace, more understanding, and a desire to be the bigger person in a situation rather than see who can win at all costs.

dc9northwest wrote:
There is one easy solution to these problems: Allowing cabotage!


That would be bad for the American public. Foreign airlines would serve the key, lucrative city pairs which would cause a lot of harm to the domestic airlines. We would likely see reduced service to smaller cities while the big cities would reap the benefits.


And thank you for proving my point. I am nowhere saying the rules should be optional, and nor are other people who are defending the passengers. There is a constant assertion or implication that all the passengers in these situations had broken a rule or their CoC and that therefore the airline is always in the right. This simply isn't true, certainly in at least one case it was the airline breaking the rules. But for some reason people seem very casual about that, while spewing all sorts of bile at the passengers.

The proiblem with many people's position is that if you think the airline is entitled to call the cops and whatever follows whenever a passenegr is a bit inconvenient, then it has to work the other way round. So every time airline staff are not being quite helpful enough, not fulfilling the CoC (and this happens a lot in IRROPS for instance with regard to providing the legal accomodation, food etc.) should passengers be calling the police and having agents dragged out from behind their desk? If not, then you can't justify that for passengers unless they are a safety risk.


1. Perhaps I wasn't talking about the customers but rather society.
2. Perhaps it isn't all as cut and dry as it's made out to be. I think we can all agree that this isn't the normal behaviors by customers or employees and that most of us find a way in our days to deal with those who test our patience or don't understand our plight without resorting to violence or protests.
3. Again, most people would not support having someone beaten and dragged off a plane for no good reason. Go back to the Dr. Dao thread - my very first response was in page 9.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
manny
Posts: 563
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Mon May 08, 2017 4:50 pm

airtran737 wrote:
manny wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
There's a simple solution and that is when the passengers get out of hand, we as pilots declare a safety of flight issue and walk off the aircraft until a satisfactory resolution is found. There is no room for the kind of behavior that has been happening on aircraft as of late by both passengers and crew members.


This statement just shows how little airline employees care for their customers who pay their salaries. The level of arrogance shown by airline employees is just mind boggling, Its attitude like these that manifest itself in airline employees thinking its ok to have customers dragged of the aircraft because of their screw ups or its ok to threaten someone with jail time. Passengers are treated as an inconvenience.

And there might be a few good employees who care but at this point they are too few and far between.


Sorry Manny, but there comes a point where the captain has to maintain control of his ship. The way I see it, is that these types of situations cause major interruptions, and my crew may not feel safe continuing. If they don't feel safe, then I don't feel safe, and we aren't going to close that door unless everyone has a warm fuzzy feeling about the flight. I don't need to spend the next couple hours wondering whether my crew is being harassed by passengers. Do you want your pilots distracted when they are trying to shoot a CAT 2 approach down to minimums with a crosswind? Probably not. Passengers are why we are here, but that does not give anyone the right to get on an airplane and lose their common sense.



It's a false equivalency where you are assigning equal blame to passengers and crew members. The passengers are your customers. They pay for your livelihood. Not all of them may be aware of the laws, rules and so on as much as the airline employees do. Many of them are not from this country and may be used to different things and different ways of doing the same thing.

Yet what we have seen is the sheer lack of common sense applied by airline employees. In situations which could have been deescalated by simple use of common sense it seems that airline employees are on a power trip and going to great lengths and means to escalate situations. When you are doing that you definitely are not in the state of mind where you are focused on customer service. You definitely are not focused on your passengers as your customers and a major reason for your jobs existence. Your statement essentially is in that vein. You start with the premise' when passengers get out of hand'. How about deescalating situations instead of abandoning your customers and throwing tantrums. There are lot of pilots all over the world who safely fly their passengers without having to abandon their flights or indulging in tantrums. So do not tell us that it cannot be done without going to extreme measures. Period.
 
User avatar
mbmbos
Posts: 2880
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 4:16 am

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Mon May 08, 2017 4:52 pm

On the start of a trip my spouse and I play a game: try to make it from the ticket counter, through security, through the departure lounge to actually boarding the jet without getting screamed at. Try it sometime and you'll be amazed.

I think most everything surrounding airline operations, from airports, security and the airlines themselves, has a strong whiff of authoritarianism about it. Follow their instructions or risk being searched or arrested or kicked off a flight. Not a soul I know who travels doesn't have a story about security agents roughing up one of their children or grandma, flight attendants reading them the riot act for some perceived "rule" having been broken.

Before launching into how terribly unsafe it is to fly these days, look at the fatality rates on our highways. If we were really concerned about people being harmed because of a particular transportation mode, we would put some of these authoritarian thugs to torment drivers instead of air travelers. But we don't. The fear and danger of air travel is ridiculously overblown. The entire industry needs to dial it back in a big way.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Mon May 08, 2017 5:07 pm

manny wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
manny wrote:

This statement just shows how little airline employees care for their customers who pay their salaries. The level of arrogance shown by airline employees is just mind boggling, Its attitude like these that manifest itself in airline employees thinking its ok to have customers dragged of the aircraft because of their screw ups or its ok to threaten someone with jail time. Passengers are treated as an inconvenience.

And there might be a few good employees who care but at this point they are too few and far between.


Sorry Manny, but there comes a point where the captain has to maintain control of his ship. The way I see it, is that these types of situations cause major interruptions, and my crew may not feel safe continuing. If they don't feel safe, then I don't feel safe, and we aren't going to close that door unless everyone has a warm fuzzy feeling about the flight. I don't need to spend the next couple hours wondering whether my crew is being harassed by passengers. Do you want your pilots distracted when they are trying to shoot a CAT 2 approach down to minimums with a crosswind? Probably not. Passengers are why we are here, but that does not give anyone the right to get on an airplane and lose their common sense.



It's a false equivalency where you are assigning equal blame to passengers and crew members. The passengers are your customers. They pay for your livelihood. Not all of them may be aware of the laws, rules and so on as much as the airline employees do. Many of them are not from this country and may be used to different things and different ways of doing the same thing.

Yet what we have seen is the sheer lack of common sense applied by airline employees. In situations which could have been deescalated by simple use of common sense it seems that airline employees are on a power trip and going to great lengths and means to escalate situations. When you are doing that you definitely are not in the state of mind where you are focused on customer service. You definitely are not focused on your passengers as your customers and a major reason for your jobs existence. Your statement essentially is in that vein. You start with the premise' when passengers get out of hand'. How about deescalating situations instead of abandoning your customers and throwing tantrums. There are lot of pilots all over the world who safely fly their passengers without having to abandon their flights or indulging in tantrums. So do not tell us that it cannot be done without going to extreme measures. Period.


I think de-escalating situations is a somewhat lost art in this industry. A lot more training could probably go into it and some additional empowerment to allow a win-win as well. if nothing else, these incidents will be reduced and for those that still happen it should hopefully be clear to most people that the employee is being neither violent nor aggressive.

I don't blame the airline employees out of hand just because they are employees. They are also people, and I think they deal with a lot of things repetitively by customers that over time can build up into a a hard, defensive shell. It's not that that's ok, but there is simply no way to avoid a human being - let alone several hundred thousand of them - becoming angry or upset sometimes. Some certainly need retraining and/or discipline but some also deserve a medal for what they put up with. Hopefully the airlines will step up in this area more. I've wondered since the Dr. Dao incident just how much has been discussed at the airlines in regards to handling situations, approaching things differently, policy reviews, etc? I would hope a lot but I fear that there are probably many employees out there that have maybe read a memo or perhaps had a sentence or two with their supervisor - and that's it. That'd be a real crime.

I agree also that with all the rules and policies in place - and that change - that many flyers simply can't or choose not to keep up. It used to be a lot simpler but that was then and this is now. The employees need to be patient and understanding with passengers in that regard, but when they are, the passenger needs to do the same in kind. Getting in someone's face, becoming belligerent, making threats, and having a my-way-or-the-highway attitude can go both ways - I know those types of people and would generally choose never to travel with them. Just because you work somewhere doesn't mean it's ok to be berated or raged at.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: FAs should stop threatening people with arrest

Mon May 08, 2017 5:15 pm

mbmbos wrote:
On the start of a trip my spouse and I play a game: try to make it from the ticket counter, through security, through the departure lounge to actually boarding the jet without getting screamed at. Try it sometime and you'll be amazed.

I think most everything surrounding airline operations, from airports, security and the airlines themselves, has a strong whiff of authoritarianism about it. Follow their instructions or risk being searched or arrested or kicked off a flight. Not a soul I know who travels doesn't have a story about security agents roughing up one of their children or grandma, flight attendants reading them the riot act for some perceived "rule" having been broken.

Before launching into how terribly unsafe it is to fly these days, look at the fatality rates on our highways. If we were really concerned about people being harmed because of a particular transportation mode, we would put some of these authoritarian thugs to torment drivers instead of air travelers. But we don't. The fear and danger of air travel is ridiculously overblown. The entire industry needs to dial it back in a big way.


I've been flying since the 70s and it is so rare to encounter someone yelling (other than perhaps TSA) that I feel sad for you that that's always your experience. The folks I encountered last week were - from TSA on - extremely gracious, patient, and friendly, with perhaps a few minor exceptions with DL, but even they weren't yelling or anything. Our family has never been "roughed up", FAs have never read us the riot act over something, and everyone seems to get where they're going just fine.

In regards to safety, yes the airlines are safe. That doesn't just happen. If someone was standing there inspecting my car every time I went out, if someone was making sure I was retrained every six months on safe operating practices, if I was prohibited from driving my vehicle if I had any physical issues arise, if there was a controller directing my every move, if there was complete lane separation, etc then driving would probably be quite a bit safer. :-)
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.

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