flyguy84
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United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 4:45 pm

Interesting adds and increases for sure, almost like shuttle schedule on SEA/PDX. Nice to see mainline return to some of the smaller cities!

http://newsroom.united.com/2017-05-08-U ... stinations
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SteveXC500
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 4:50 pm

Periodically, MSP sees a 737 and we have had 319/320 service to SFO before (seasonally in summer, I believe). Maybe this is just the return of mainline service for the summer months?
 
Varsity1
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 4:51 pm

Kirby is doing his thing.

Good to see.
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Rdh3e
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 5:08 pm

SteveXC500 wrote:
Periodically, MSP sees a 737 and we have had 319/320 service to SFO before (seasonally in summer, I believe). Maybe this is just the return of mainline service for the summer months?

It appears that there will be mainline for the foreseeable future. It appears to continue through the end of the schedule.
 
commavia
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 5:17 pm

Needless to say, sending quite the message to Alaska. This is definitely precisely what was to be expected from the Alaska-Virgin merger - it has created a far more compelling competitive force in the Bay Area, and United is now responding.
 
BobbyPSP
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 5:31 pm

I agree this deserves its own thread. While we really appreciate the hard work into posting sked changes, this gives a clear, concise set of facts
 
jetmatt777
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 5:34 pm

commavia wrote:
Needless to say, sending quite the message to Alaska. This is definitely precisely what was to be expected from the Alaska-Virgin merger - it has created a far more compelling competitive force in the Bay Area, and United is now responding.

I wonder if Alaska will respond?
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ryder1650
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 5:35 pm

Is XIY happening again this summer?
 
LHUSA
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 5:36 pm

ryder1650 wrote:
Is XIY happening again this summer?



Yes, it is. I'm not sure when it started up again, but it's flying tomorrow May 9th.
 
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 5:37 pm

A second IND-SFO makes sense, even with AS entering the market, because the fast-growing tech community in Indy has embraced UA's IND-SFO service. Hopefully the second flight allows for better connections to UA's massive Asian network from SFO, which AS cannot duplicate even with their partners.
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 5:38 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Kirby is doing his thing.

Good to see.


Implementing the AA cornerstone concept, where's there's nothing but flying to or from a hub?

If they're not growing ASMs, by definition adds to SFO are cuts from somewhere else.
 
commavia
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 5:42 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Implementing the AA cornerstone concept, where's there's nothing but flying to or from a hub?


Yep - at least at a macro level, that's what it looks like to me. Thankfully for United, similar to AA, most of the airline's hubs happen to be in some of the largest and most important metro areas in the U.S. - including multiple "tier-1" regional and/or national economic, demographic and cultural hubs.

MIflyer12 wrote:
If they're not growing ASMs, by definition adds to SFO are cuts from somewhere else.


I suspect a big part of the ASMs being "freed up" to facilitate this growth out of SFO (and ORD) without significantly increasing overall network capacity is the steady upgauging of small jets and resulting reductions in frequency. But more broadly, I take the point - it is interesting that United is adding all of this new capacity into two of its largest hubs - ORD and SFO - while system capacity is barely changing. I must admit that the first thing it brings to mind is the recent commentary about United wanting to grow more at LAX - interesting in light of so much capacity being added up the coast.
 
LHUSA
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 5:43 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Kirby is doing his thing.

Good to see.


Implementing the AA cornerstone concept, where's there's nothing but flying to or from a hub?

If they're not growing ASMs, by definition adds to SFO are cuts from somewhere else.


I believe Kirby has indicated domestic capacity growth in 2017 near 6%
 
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 5:47 pm

ryder1650 wrote:
Is XIY happening again this summer?

Image

Punching SFO and XIY into United.com would suggest yes.
146 319 320 321 332 333 343 717 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 763 764 772 773 789 AR1 AT4 CNA CR2 CR7 DC9 ER3 ERD ER4 E70 E75 E90
 
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 5:50 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
If they're not growing ASMs, by definition adds to SFO are cuts from somewhere else.


UA is growing 2Q domestic ASM 4.5 to 5.5%, and 2.5-3.5% systemwide.
 
Yflyer
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 5:50 pm

Holy crap, did I read that right? They're upgauging SMF-SFO to a 737?! That's like a 20 minute flight. That's got to be one of the shortest mainline flights in the US. At one time that route was all E120 back when Skywest still had the type.
 
United1
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 5:50 pm

LHUSA wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Kirby is doing his thing.

Good to see.


Implementing the AA cornerstone concept, where's there's nothing but flying to or from a hub?

If they're not growing ASMs, by definition adds to SFO are cuts from somewhere else.


I believe Kirby has indicated domestic capacity growth in 2017 near 6%


Yup...UA is growing by several percentage points this year overall.

What the press release says is they are not changing their guidance on that...not that they are not growing.
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United1
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 5:54 pm

Yflyer wrote:
Holy crap, did I read that right? They're upgauging SMF-SFO to a 737?! That's like a 20 minute flight. That's got to be one of the shortest mainline flights in the US. At one time that route was all E120 back when Skywest still had the type.


You read that correctly IIRC the plane overnights in SMF... part of that flight may just be to free up gate space at SFO.

UA will operate a 738 and 4 CRJ-200s on the route.
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CONTACREW
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 5:59 pm

LHUSA wrote:
ryder1650 wrote:
Is XIY happening again this summer?



Yes, it is. I'm not sure when it started up again, but it's flying tomorrow May 9th.


It resumed service yesterday.
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 6:01 pm

These adds might also be a move to get ahead of any rumored slot restrictions being imposed on SFO in the future. The govt. surely won't take anything away from anyone, but they might move to limit any proposed increases if/when slots are instituted. If the lack of gates for new competition is also a limiting factor, UA is smart to make sure that their facilities are utilized to the max so that it'd be difficult to force any gate forfeiture. DEN, ORD, IAH and IAD are in no danger of having slots imposed on them so gates are the new barrier to entry for competition.

Looking at a Friday in July, UA has some pretty solid coverage of the western US from SFO. (PHX is lacking a bit maybe)
SAN - 8
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LAS - 9
PHX - 4
DEN - 12
SLC - 5
PDX - 9
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travelin man
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 6:07 pm

Upgauging SFO-PSP in June? Bold move...
 
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 6:17 pm

travelin man wrote:
Upgauging SFO-PSP in June? Bold move...



Not that big of a jump...UA is going from 246 seats to 305 seats in the market so an increase in capacity but is going from 4 to 3 flights as well.

As we get closer to the PSP high season UA is scheduled to go up to 5 dailies....408 seats.
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MDW22L31C
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 6:22 pm

PSP gets 737's and ONT stays with RJ's?
 
United1
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 6:29 pm

MDW22L31C wrote:
PSP gets 737's and ONT stays with RJ's?


Well ONT does have 9 daily flight vs PSPs 3-5...clearly UA finds frequency more important on ONT which is more of a business market than PSP is.
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phllax
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 6:34 pm

Interesting, mainline returned to BUR with the February schedule change: 1 daily 319 RON from DEN and 2 SFO flights during the week that are either Airbus or 737.
 
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 6:35 pm

Good moves in SFO to defend its territory. The Q1 2017 earnings call said that unit revenues were in line with the forecasts despite higher capacity additions year-over-year. Operational improvements also with better completion factors have helped.

Of course, ya gotta love Kirby's explanations to investors about "natural market share" that was lost during the Smisek era, after wall street pressured UA to cut capacity over and over again in order to improve financials.

I know that Wall Street is hesitant to buy into the constant capacity revisions under the guise that they are accretive until they can see proof in the pudding.

BobbyPSP wrote:
I agree this deserves its own thread. While we really appreciate the hard work into posting sked changes, this gives a clear, concise set of facts


Exactly. 100% agreed. The discussions merited here cannot receive a level of rich level of collaboration if they're buried in a thread with over one hundred other plausible routes to talk about.
 
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 6:41 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
commavia wrote:
Needless to say, sending quite the message to Alaska. This is definitely precisely what was to be expected from the Alaska-Virgin merger - it has created a far more compelling competitive force in the Bay Area, and United is now responding.

I wonder if Alaska will respond?


I think if people has their choice between AS and UA, UA will lose out. AS is just a much better run airline in that market. UA cant compete with AS's customer service which as of late, is a pretty big factor when choosing whom to fly. So, personally speaking, I don't think AS needs to respond at all, UA will fumble the ball all on their own, AS just needs to sit back, relax, and enjoy the show that is UA.
 
DesertAir
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 6:58 pm

Yflyer wrote:
Holy crap, did I read that right? They're upgauging SMF-SFO to a 737?! That's like a 20 minute flight. That's got to be one of the shortest mainline flights in the US. At one time that route was all E120 back when Skywest still had the type.


I was thinking the exactly the same. It reminds me of the days when UA ran 737s between SFO and SCK. Also, ran the big planes between LAX and SAN. I was on one once...take off, a but of leveling off and descent. I suppose UA is going to try to use SMF to feed into their SFO flights.

Also there was a time when Hughes Airwest used a DC-9 between SCK and SMF and then onto LAS. PSA used 737s on their SCK and SFO flights.

All of this is great news for SMF. I fly there monthly from SAN.
 
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 7:01 pm

phllax wrote:
Interesting, mainline returned to BUR with the February schedule change: 1 daily 319 RON from DEN and 2 SFO flights during the week that are either Airbus or 737.


Going mainline to BUR makes sense to even the playing field with WN, now that they fly to SFO. UA had been steadily moving towards mainlining when they went from all CRJ-200's to splitting those with E175's...and now moving to integrate the 737.

Applaud the move, UA.
 
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 7:27 pm

jumbojet wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
commavia wrote:
Needless to say, sending quite the message to Alaska. This is definitely precisely what was to be expected from the Alaska-Virgin merger - it has created a far more compelling competitive force in the Bay Area, and United is now responding.

I wonder if Alaska will respond?


I think if people has their choice between AS and UA, UA will lose out. AS is just a much better run airline in that market. UA cant compete with AS's customer service which as of late, is a pretty big factor when choosing whom to fly. So, personally speaking, I don't think AS needs to respond at all, UA will fumble the ball all on their own, AS just needs to sit back, relax, and enjoy the show that is UA.


Not really....UA actually does a rather good job in SFO and while AS is a very good airline VX has a bit of work to do (VXs complaint rate to the feds is actually 3.63 per 100k vs UAs 1.72.) Looking back at every recent US airline merger operations and customer service have suffered before rebounding a bit so AS/VX will be a bit occupied for a while. While I am sure some of this expansion at SFO was in reaction to AS/VX I don't think UA is all that worried about them at SFO simply because there is no way AS/VX can ever offer the same depth and breadth of a schedule or network as UA can which are far more important to the average business traveler than a perception of customer service.

Taking a look at on time rankings out of SFO and UA is again ahead also a very important thing that travelers look at.

On time rankings at SFO 12 month trailing:
UA 75.99%
AS 75.46%
AS/VX 70.99%
VX 69.79%
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CO777-200ER
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 7:33 pm

Yflyer wrote:
Holy crap, did I read that right? They're upgauging SMF-SFO to a 737?! That's like a 20 minute flight. That's got to be one of the shortest mainline flights in the US. At one time that route was all E120 back when Skywest still had the type.

The only mainline flight that comes close is UA runs a few mainline flights from ORD-MKE. Only about 70 miles between to the 2.
 
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 8:23 pm

United1 wrote:
While I am sure some of this expansion at SFO was in reaction to AS/VX I don't think UA is all that worried about them at SFO simply because there is no way AS/VX can ever offer the same depth and breadth of a schedule or network as UA can which are far more important to the average business traveler than a perception of customer service.

Taking a look at on time rankings out of SFO and UA is again ahead also a very important thing that travelers look at.

On time rankings at SFO 12 month trailing:
UA 75.99%
AS 75.46%
AS/VX 70.99%
VX 69.79%



Good point about the on time percentages. AS has some work to do but they are aware of that and are focusing on getting the SFO operation to the same standard as the rest of the operation. Ben Minnicucci whipped AS' operation into shape years ago when things were out of control as far as on time goes so I have faith he can do the same in SFO. He gets a laser like focus on even the most minute details of the operation and holds people accountable for doing the right thing.

As far as UA's depth and breadth of service, the same argument has been made about DL vs. AS in SEA. AS has managed to hold their own and maintain their dominant position in SEA without giving any leeway to DL. Alaska's airline partners address a little of this. Between AA and AS at SFO, together with QF, AF, KL, KE, EK, CX, FI, FJ, JL, LA, BA and HU at SJC, you can get pretty much anywhere in the world while earning status miles on AS. Not the same as flying on one airline, but a pretty nice cache of codeshare partners, nevertheless. Let's face it, recent news aside, UA isn't known for their service either on the airplane or off. They're improving, and will continue to do so, but they've still got work to do. I think AS and UA can coexist nicely at SFO.
 
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 8:26 pm

CO777-200ER wrote:
Yflyer wrote:
Holy crap, did I read that right? They're upgauging SMF-SFO to a 737?! That's like a 20 minute flight. That's got to be one of the shortest mainline flights in the US. At one time that route was all E120 back when Skywest still had the type.

The only mainline flight that comes close is UA runs a few mainline flights from ORD-MKE. Only about 70 miles between to the 2.


LAX-SAN isn't too far behind. This summer, UA will have a RON 737 on that route.
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travelin man
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 8:53 pm

United1 wrote:
travelin man wrote:
Upgauging SFO-PSP in June? Bold move...



Not that big of a jump...UA is going from 246 seats to 305 seats in the market so an increase in capacity but is going from 4 to 3 flights as well.

As we get closer to the PSP high season UA is scheduled to go up to 5 dailies....408 seats.


It just seems like an odd time to increase capacity to Palm Springs -- right in the beginning of "low season".
 
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 8:54 pm

Yflyer wrote:
Holy crap, did I read that right? They're upgauging SMF-SFO to a 737?! That's like a 20 minute flight. That's got to be one of the shortest mainline flights in the US. At one time that route was all E120 back when Skywest still had the type.


They did the same thing in MRY every day for a long time. A 320 would RON at MRY coming in late at night and leaving first thing in the morning to SFO. Now it is an off again-on again thing.
 
United1
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 9:03 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
United1 wrote:
While I am sure some of this expansion at SFO was in reaction to AS/VX I don't think UA is all that worried about them at SFO simply because there is no way AS/VX can ever offer the same depth and breadth of a schedule or network as UA can which are far more important to the average business traveler than a perception of customer service.

Taking a look at on time rankings out of SFO and UA is again ahead also a very important thing that travelers look at.

On time rankings at SFO 12 month trailing:
UA 75.99%
AS 75.46%
AS/VX 70.99%
VX 69.79%



Good point about the on time percentages. AS has some work to do but they are aware of that and are focusing on getting the SFO operation to the same standard as the rest of the operation. Ben Minnicucci whipped AS' operation into shape years ago when things were out of control as far as on time goes so I have faith he can do the same in SFO. He gets a laser like focus on even the most minute details of the operation and holds people accountable for doing the right thing.

As far as UA's depth and breadth of service, the same argument has been made about DL vs. AS in SEA. AS has managed to hold their own and maintain their dominant position in SEA without giving any leeway to DL. Alaska's airline partners address a little of this. Between AA and AS at SFO, together with QF, AF, KL, KE, EK, CX, FI, FJ, JL, LA, BA and HU at SJC, you can get pretty much anywhere in the world while earning status miles on AS. Not the same as flying on one airline, but a pretty nice cache of codeshare partners, nevertheless. Let's face it, recent news aside, UA isn't known for their service either on the airplane or off. They're improving, and will continue to do so, but they've still got work to do. I think AS and UA can coexist nicely at SFO.


Well I am glad they are looking at the SFO operations as VX needs some help. My hope is that the integration of VX into AS doesn't damage ASes operations in the short term but history is not on their side...we will see.

I understand the parallel you are trying to make but I think you might be looking at apples to oranges if you try and compare what happened up at SEA vs SFO. DL has made itself successful at SEA by being willing to absorb losses in order to build a hub and I'm not convinced SEA will ever be on its own a profitable part of DLs network. As the hometown carrier AS also had (and has) a massive advantage over DL both in loyalty, breadth of network and quite frankly is entrenched in markets where DL has no hope of ever matching much less surpassing them. SFO is a bit different for AS as in essence it's in the opposite situation. While AS/VX do have an established market share here it's still nowhere near the size of what UA has and in order to grow they are going to have to do what DL did up in SEA which is be willing to absorb losses. At the same time they are going to have to finish their merger with VX, continue to defend SEA and potentially grow LAX as well. AS is a great well run airline, and I don't question that for a moment, but they have a lot on their plate right now so I'm not sure any significant growth is practical right now.

My bet is that you will see the occasional one-off add here and there at SFO from AS/VX beyond what has already been announced but nothing that truly causes a response from UA. The growth you are seeing from UA is more aligned with UA righting its network and tapping into the boom town that is SF than it is really a reaction to AS. I think you are right however that UA and AS will both coexist quite well in the Bay Area.
Last edited by United1 on Mon May 08, 2017 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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United1
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 9:16 pm

travelin man wrote:
United1 wrote:
travelin man wrote:
Upgauging SFO-PSP in June? Bold move...



Not that big of a jump...UA is going from 246 seats to 305 seats in the market so an increase in capacity but is going from 4 to 3 flights as well.

As we get closer to the PSP high season UA is scheduled to go up to 5 dailies....408 seats.


It just seems like an odd time to increase capacity to Palm Springs -- right in the beginning of "low season".


Yeah, it will be toasty...

Looks like the flight just goes there and back so they are clearly not positioning the plane to PSP to have it go somewhere else. The equipment type varies a bit (739 or 320) so the actual daily increase is only 25-50 seats so not really a big jump.
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 9:32 pm

jumbojet wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
commavia wrote:
Needless to say, sending quite the message to Alaska. This is definitely precisely what was to be expected from the Alaska-Virgin merger - it has created a far more compelling competitive force in the Bay Area, and United is now responding.

I wonder if Alaska will respond?


I think if people has their choice between AS and UA, UA will lose out. AS is just a much better run airline in that market. UA cant compete with AS's customer service which as of late, is a pretty big factor when choosing whom to fly. So, personally speaking, I don't think AS needs to respond at all, UA will fumble the ball all on their own, AS just needs to sit back, relax, and enjoy the show that is UA.


More brilliant analysis from jumbojet, at least there was no fanboy DL comment added on. AS can't offer the connection opportunities so they can't respond even if they wanted to other than flood the markets and drive down prices and hurt themselves. People look at prices, frequency and connection opportunities. Zero people base a decision on AS supposedly being nicer to deal with vs UA. Please tone down your constant hate for UA, it's getting old.
 
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Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 9:50 pm

United1 wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
United1 wrote:
While I am sure some of this expansion at SFO was in reaction to AS/VX I don't think UA is all that worried about them at SFO simply because there is no way AS/VX can ever offer the same depth and breadth of a schedule or network as UA can which are far more important to the average business traveler than a perception of customer service.

Taking a look at on time rankings out of SFO and UA is again ahead also a very important thing that travelers look at.

On time rankings at SFO 12 month trailing:
UA 75.99%
AS 75.46%
AS/VX 70.99%
VX 69.79%



Good point about the on time percentages. AS has some work to do but they are aware of that and are focusing on getting the SFO operation to the same standard as the rest of the operation. Ben Minnicucci whipped AS' operation into shape years ago when things were out of control as far as on time goes so I have faith he can do the same in SFO. He gets a laser like focus on even the most minute details of the operation and holds people accountable for doing the right thing.

As far as UA's depth and breadth of service, the same argument has been made about DL vs. AS in SEA. AS has managed to hold their own and maintain their dominant position in SEA without giving any leeway to DL. Alaska's airline partners address a little of this. Between AA and AS at SFO, together with QF, AF, KL, KE, EK, CX, FI, FJ, JL, LA, BA and HU at SJC, you can get pretty much anywhere in the world while earning status miles on AS. Not the same as flying on one airline, but a pretty nice cache of codeshare partners, nevertheless. Let's face it, recent news aside, UA isn't known for their service either on the airplane or off. They're improving, and will continue to do so, but they've still got work to do. I think AS and UA can coexist nicely at SFO.


Well I am glad they are looking at the SFO operations as VX needs some help. My hope is that the integration of VX into AS doesn't damage ASes operations in the short term but history is not on their side...we will see.

I understand the parallel you are trying to make but I think you might be looking at apples to oranges if you try and compare what happened up at SEA vs SFO. DL has made itself successful at SEA by being willing to absorb losses in order to build a hub and I'm not convinced SEA will ever be on its own a profitable part of DLs network. As the hometown carrier AS also had (and has) a massive advantage over DL both in loyalty, breadth of network and quite frankly is entrenched in markets where DL has no hope of ever matching much less surpassing them. SFO is a bit different for AS as in essence it's in the opposite situation. While AS/VX do have an established market share here it's still nowhere near the size of what UA has and in order to grow they are going to have to do what DL did up in SEA which is be willing to absorb losses. At the same time they are going to have to finish their merger with VX, continue to defend SEA and potentially grow LAX as well. AS is a great well run airline, and I don't question that for a moment, but they have a lot on their plate right now so I'm not sure any significant growth is practical right now.

My bet is that you will see the occasional one-off add here and there at SFO from AS/VX beyond what has already been announced but nothing that truly causes a response from UA. The growth you are seeing from UA is more aligned with UA righting its network and tapping into the boom town that is SF than it is really a reaction to AS. I think you are right however that UA and AS will both coexist quite well in the Bay Area.


All good points, and United has been a huge player in the SFO market for a really long time with a loyal frequent flyer base. As you said, SFO (and California in general) is a boom town and Alaska management has said that they just want a piece of that very big pie. I think they'll do fine there and United will continue to grow.

I do disagree that the recent UA adds aren't targeted at Alaska. And it's okay that they are, but if you look at the majority of adds they're to fairly "secondary markets" that AS recently announced from SFO. Be interesting to see how it all shakes out in the end.
 
mmahpeel
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:18 pm

Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 10:03 pm

There are more frequency adds coming mid-August. These schedules were loaded a few weekends ago and I was puzzled that Enilria's thread didn't contain many of them.

It's somewhat unusual to add additional frequencies at this point in Spring for late Summer through the Fall unless they are going to stick.

Here are some of the notable ones (there may be others) - compared to the early August schedule:

SEA goes to 12 (add 2)
GEG one of the frequencies goes to a 739
EUG goes to 5 (add 1 - keeps the mainline flights)
MFR goes to 6 (add 2 - keeps the mainline flights)
RNO goes to 5 (add 1 - keeps the mainline flights)
LAS goes to 11 (add 2)
LAX goes to 17 (add 1)
SNA goes to 8 (add 1)
SAN goes to 12 (add 3)
 
77H
Posts: 1520
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 10:03 pm

United1 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
I wonder if Alaska will respond?


I think if people has their choice between AS and UA, UA will lose out. AS is just a much better run airline in that market. UA cant compete with AS's customer service which as of late, is a pretty big factor when choosing whom to fly. So, personally speaking, I don't think AS needs to respond at all, UA will fumble the ball all on their own, AS just needs to sit back, relax, and enjoy the show that is UA.


Not really....UA actually does a rather good job in SFO and while AS is a very good airline VX has a bit of work to do (VXs complaint rate to the feds is actually 3.63 per 100k vs UAs 1.72.) Looking back at every recent US airline merger operations and customer service have suffered before rebounding a bit so AS/VX will be a bit occupied for a while. While I am sure some of this expansion at SFO was in reaction to AS/VX I don't think UA is all that worried about them at SFO simply because there is no way AS/VX can ever offer the same depth and breadth of a schedule or network as UA can which are far more important to the average business traveler than a perception of customer service.

Taking a look at on time rankings out of SFO and UA is again ahead also a very important thing that travelers look at.

On time rankings at SFO 12 month trailing:
UA 75.99%
AS 75.46%
AS/VX 70.99%
VX 69.79%


United1, thank you for the explanation of fact in response to JumboJet's continuous hate mongering of UA. Not one word of his statement was based in fact and is very much inline with his usual agenda to bash UA every opportunity he gets. Any airline increasing service and up gauging is good news. Only the usual crowd of UA trolls would take the time to post on a positive news story thread.

77H
 
uberflieger
Posts: 1573
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:22 pm

Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 10:37 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Kirby is doing his thing


:checkmark:

No doubt there's much more to come. :airplane:
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 10:49 pm

United1 wrote:
I understand the parallel you are trying to make but I think you might be looking at apples to oranges if you try and compare what happened up at SEA vs SFO. DL has made itself successful at SEA by being willing to absorb losses in order to build a hub and I'm not convinced SEA will ever be on its own a profitable part of DLs network. As the hometown carrier AS also had (and has) a massive advantage over DL both in loyalty, breadth of network and quite frankly is entrenched in markets where DL has no hope of ever matching much less surpassing them. SFO is a bit different for AS as in essence it's in the opposite situation. While AS/VX do have an established market share here it's still nowhere near the size of what UA has and in order to grow they are going to have to do what DL did up in SEA which is be willing to absorb losses.


I think the whole SFO/Bay Area competitive dynamic between United and a new, enlarged, Alaska still very much remains to be seen. I totally agree that United is far, far stronger at SFO than Delta is at SEA. And there's no question that, just like Delta at SEA, United is going to leverage its global network to capture corporate accounts for which a sweeping domestic and longhaul network breadth is valuable. But that said, as already mentioned, Alaska has faced precisely this type of competitive threat before, and found a way to compete very effectively. And, it must be said, whereas Alaska is obviously a relative non-entity for SFO longhaul, it is rapidly becoming a far, far more relevant domestic competitor at SFO as compared to what Virgin America ever was.

So we'll see. I suspect that Alaska will be able to carve out quite the robust niche for itself at SFO by leveraging a variety of useful competitive weapons including:
(1) E175s - making markets possible that could never have been profitably flown with Virgin America A320s
(2) SJC/OAK coverage - Alaska offers a level of density and nonstop options out of the other Bay Area airports that United cannot match
(3) West Coast coverage - for passengers and/or companies with extensive travel needs up and down the west coast, Alaska is now quite a compelling option with hubs or at least a significant presence at SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX and SAN
(4) Partnerships - again, no match for United's own branded network, but Alaska's stable of longhaul codeshare partners can definitely funnel plenty of people onto Alaska's SFO domestic flights, plus there's also bay-area AA FFs who can use Alaska's flights, too

United1 wrote:
AS is a great well run airline, and I don't question that for a moment, but they have a lot on their plate right now so I'm not sure any significant growth is practical right now.


Better tell Alaska's management! I agree that Alaska has quite a big on its "plate" right now with the integration, regional staffing issues, etc., but even in spite of all that, it still looks like the company is growing quite significantly this year!

:)
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3552
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 11:09 pm

commavia wrote:
But that said, as already mentioned, Alaska has faced precisely this type of competitive threat before, and found a way to compete very effectively.

The analogy is that AS is to SFO as DL is to SEA. If you think DL has been successful in SEA then it should indicate that AS will be successful in SFO.

AS will need to keep an eye on CASM because as with SEA, their primary weapon in pushing back DL has often been their ability to offer customers low fares made possible by their low costs. AS's costs are 15-20% lower than UA's, that will be crucial for their success in SFO as they try to convince the UA FF's to switch their loyalties.
 
United1
Posts: 3887
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 11:31 pm

commavia wrote:
United1 wrote:
hts, too

United1 wrote:
AS is a great well run airline, and I don't question that for a moment, but they have a lot on their plate right now so I'm not sure any significant growth is practical right now.


Better tell Alaska's management! I agree that Alaska has quite a big on its "plate" right now with the integration, regional staffing issues, etc., but even in spite of all that, it still looks like the company is growing quite significantly this year!

:)


Oh absolutely they are growing in SF, LA and SAN...I don't think it's practical or will be profitable right away, if ever, however I also am not sure they have a choice if they want to have any chance of integrating VXs network with their own and hitting the critical mass point that UA, AA, WN and DL all have. AS is going to have to watch it as I really am sort of worried they have bit off more than they can chew.

Any idea on what guidance AS has put out regarding growth this year? ie a range of percentage
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
United1
Posts: 3887
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 11:35 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
commavia wrote:

AS will need to keep an eye on CASM because as with SEA, their primary weapon in pushing back DL has often been their ability to offer customers low fares made possible by their low costs. AS's costs are 15-20% lower than UA's, that will be crucial for their success in SFO as they try to convince the UA FF's to switch their loyalties.


CASM is a piece of it so is RASM...AS does not generate the same average fare per customer as UA does so lower costs will only go so far.

BTW I don't think DL measures success in terms of profitability in SEA...I think its a network decision they are willing to subsidise.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
User avatar
intotheair
Posts: 1768
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Mon May 08, 2017 11:48 pm

CMHMarc787 wrote:
phllax wrote:
Interesting, mainline returned to BUR with the February schedule change: 1 daily 319 RON from DEN and 2 SFO flights during the week that are either Airbus or 737.


Going mainline to BUR makes sense to even the playing field with WN, now that they fly to SFO. UA had been steadily moving towards mainlining when they went from all CRJ-200's to splitting those with E175's...and now moving to integrate the 737.

Applaud the move, UA.


The only thing is that as far as I can tell, mainline is only replacing the E175s, while all the CRJ200 frequencies are still there untouched. One would think that in a logical world, mainline is displacing the 76 seaters, while the 76 seaters displace the 50 seat RJs, but that's not happening.

I suppose it's nice that mainline is back in BUR, but if the mainline flights are all going to be those odd late evening/early morning RON rotations and the middle of the day departures are still CRJ200s, it's not going to keep me from still booking WN or driving to LAX.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
F27500
Posts: 708
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:52 am

Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Tue May 09, 2017 12:12 am

adamblang wrote:
ryder1650 wrote:
Is XIY happening again this summer?

Image

Punching SFO and XIY into United.com would suggest yes.


Ok .. I have to ask this ... how does one pronounce "XIAN" ? I always wondered.
 
GordonCC
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:16 am

Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Tue May 09, 2017 12:17 am

I am amazed at the lack of frequency between SFO and Miami/Ft. Lauderdale. Hopefully this will improve in the near future.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 25827
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: United Airlines Increases Service Between San Francisco and 18 Destinations

Tue May 09, 2017 12:18 am

F27500 wrote:
adamblang wrote:
ryder1650 wrote:
Is XIY happening again this summer?

Image

Punching SFO and XIY into United.com would suggest yes.


Ok .. I have to ask this ... how does one pronounce "XIAN" ? I always wondered.


"X" is "ch," like in Catalan, so "Chian."
a.

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