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upwardfacing
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:56 am

Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Copenhagen in May 2017

Thu May 18, 2017 2:50 am

Local Indian media are reporting that AI has announced Stockholm thrice weekly commencing August 15.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 679_1.html

Local Swedish media report the same.

http://www.gp.se/nyheter/ekonomi/sverig ... -1.4289256
 
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AirIndia
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Thu May 18, 2017 3:57 am

Subsidies topic comes back on again.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashleynune ... 91e07fbd69
 
audian
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Thu May 18, 2017 4:05 am

I believe DFW area has quite a big Indian community that can feed AI with enough O&D passengers. On top of that, you can expect people driving from Austin and Oklahoma city if AI can outclass ME3(which is little tricky but not impossible).

AI can downplay ME3 competition by offering,
1. Seamless connections to first and second tier cities at DEL.
2. Competitive fares.
3. Top notch customer service both on flight and on ground.
4. Multilingual Crew
 
vadodara
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Thu May 18, 2017 1:22 pm

upwardfacing wrote:

Otherwise this thread is essentially a VFR fantasy camp, a love letter written by Indian immigrants in the USA to themselves. Notice how there is precious little comment from people actually familiar with how the airline industry works--there was just no use getting into this conversation among VFR enthusiasts.

Texas (either DFW or IAH) is especially crazy because of the extremely long stage length with prohibitively high associated costs in both time and money, lack of useful connections at the Texas end (major destinations in the Southwest USA, Mexico, and Central America are easily connected elsewhere), comparative lack of business ties (DFW is more of a domestic US business centre, IAH is very much about oil), and comparative lack of DEL point-of-sale traffic to these places. In fact ARN--which would likely meet the most scepticism among the participants here--might work rather nicely in comparison.


Perhaps, this might be an issue for the guys running the 3 US airlines; they seem to be oblivious regarding who their customers are.

And when the 'VFR fantasy' folks bolt for someone who provides service, we know the story ..........

Again, US is/was a great country built on free-markets, opportunity for all and so forth. Let's keep it that way!
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Thu May 18, 2017 5:48 pm

Ugh this subsidy discussion is pointless. AI would have bought wide bodies with or with EXIM. AI/IA have bought many Airbus frames without EXIM. All airlines operate routes where they lose money. Also losing money is very subjective in airlines because it all depends how you allocate cost. Let's face it, the US3 are very happy pushing traffic US-India though their JVs with EU carriers. Travelers US-India would rather fly nonstop and not be stuck with timings designed for US-EU flights. Until you've been forced to leave a city between 2am-5am, I really don't want to hear about how the old system was great. AI is connecting DEL to the world - and good on them. 9W is going a more traditional approach of partnering with EU and US airlines and pushing traffic through Europe - good on them. This tells me two things (1) there are some pax who like non tops US-India or connecting in DEL and (2) there seems to be overcapacity on the US-EU routes that is motivating EU/US carriers to offer cheap seats to India.
 
indcwby
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Thu May 18, 2017 6:36 pm

audian wrote:
3. Top notch customer service both on flight and on ground.


World Peace is more likely to occur before #3 ever happens.
A319, A320, A330, A340, B717, B727, B737, B747, B757, B767, B777, CRJ7, DC10, MD88, MD11, E145, E175
"Always remember that you fly an airplane with your head, not your hands."
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Thu May 18, 2017 7:18 pm

I noticed EXIM issue is dropped, just to summarize.

In 2006 AI placed order for 8xB77Ls, 15xB77Ws, 18xB738s and 27xB788s from Boeing

In 2006 AI applied for EXIM guarantee, but bank never approved.

Between 2007 and 2009 AI took delivery of 8xB77Ls, 12xB77Ws and 18xB738s without EXIM guarantee.

In 2011 AI re-applied for EXIM guarantee for 27xB788 deliveries, Bank approved but ATA and Delta filed lawsuit. Pending legal case, starting 2012 AI took delivery of B788s, US congress didn't reauthorize EXIM for a while, AI ended up taking bridge loans and SLB all of them.

Starting 2015 September, GOI started guaranteeing the lease + lease return damages to the maximum total of $5 Million per frame. That is a non-guarantee guarantee because even for lease, the guarantor has to co-sing for total value of the frame.

AI operated 3 dailies to 2 Metro areas to entire US and worlds largest airlines cannot compete? Give me a break.
All posts are just opinions.
 
killswitch13
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Air India launches direct DEL-ARN

Thu May 18, 2017 7:25 pm

Starting August 15th 2017 , Air India will launch 3X direct flights ( Wed,Fri & Sun) to Stockholm (ARN)

The flight will depart from Delhi at 1400 hrs (IST) and arrive in Stockholm at 1820 hrs (CET). The return flight will leave Stockholm at 2100 hrs (CET)and reach Delhi the next morning.

http://m.timesofindia.com/business/indi ... 735923.cms

https://twitter.com/swedeninindia/statu ... 8634011649
 
killswitch13
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Thu May 18, 2017 7:30 pm

 
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CanadaFair
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Re: Air India launches direct DEL-ARN

Thu May 18, 2017 8:19 pm

Wouldnt it be better to keep these discussions in a single thread titled Air India starting new destinations, right now there is

Copenhagen thread
Tel Aviv thread
New long hauls for 2017 thread
Nairobi and Frankfurt thread
Washington thread
 
upwardfacing
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:56 am

Re: Air India launches direct DEL-ARN

Thu May 18, 2017 8:25 pm

CanadaFair wrote:
Wouldnt it be better to keep these discussions in a single thread titled Air India starting new destinations, right now there is

Copenhagen thread
Tel Aviv thread
New long hauls for 2017 thread
Nairobi and Frankfurt thread
Washington thread


Probably not, because the single thread has been taken over by VFR enthusiasts in the USA talking to each other about personal concerns, and there is little or no discussion from an airline industry perspective, or even from an investment, trade, or tourism perspective.

In any case Aug 15 is I believe on a Tuesday this year, and the claim is that it will operate Wed-Fri-Sun. Let's see what the official listing is in booking engines.
 
goacom
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Thu May 18, 2017 9:32 pm

As a resident in Austin, I would not consider AI unless my final destination was Delhi. AI cannot guarantee seamless connections to its first and second tier cities due to its poor on-time performance of its domestic service. AI's in flight service is pretty good, but its before and after portions of the flight are dodgy.

audian wrote:
I believe DFW area has quite a big Indian community that can feed AI with enough O&D passengers. On top of that, you can expect people driving from Austin and Oklahoma city if AI can outclass ME3(which is little tricky but not impossible).

AI can downplay ME3 competition by offering,
1. Seamless connections to first and second tier cities at DEL.
2. Competitive fares.
3. Top notch customer service both on flight and on ground.
4. Multilingual Crew
 
NichCage
Posts: 916
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Air India launches direct DEL-ARN

Thu May 18, 2017 10:59 pm

What happened to DEL-CPH? I know ARN to Asia is a bit stronger than CPH to Asia, even though it is underserved. So maybe flying DEL-ARN is better than DEL-CPH because ARN has more demand I guess.
 
upwardfacing
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Re: Air India launches direct DEL-ARN

Thu May 18, 2017 11:22 pm

NichCage wrote:
What happened to DEL-CPH? I know ARN to Asia is a bit stronger than CPH to Asia, even though it is underserved. So maybe flying DEL-ARN is better than DEL-CPH because ARN has more demand I guess.


The reversal was strange, as the CPH announcement was official on Twitter, but there was never any acknowledgment from Copenhagen Airport or any regional or national Danish authorities. Whereas in this case, it's already posted on the Arlanda airport website, and the announcement was made while the Swedish FM was in Delhi, with Swedish media confirming.

Regarding ARN vs CPH: I think that for a reasonably significant portion of Sweden, population-wise, CPH is actually the nearer airport.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Air India launches direct DEL-ARN

Fri May 19, 2017 12:31 am

upwardfacing wrote:
The reversal was strange, as the CPH announcement was official on Twitter, but there was never any acknowledgment from Copenhagen Airport or any regional or national Danish authorities. Whereas in this case, it's already posted on the Arlanda airport website, and the announcement was made while the Swedish FM was in Delhi, with Swedish media confirming.

Problem is many desi-users have taken to posting random FB feed's as the "official line". Most of those threads are purely speculative.
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle!
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Fri May 19, 2017 12:38 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
What are you so angry about? When they moved their hub from BOM to DEL, they didn't fire their staff. Many airlines do that (especially govt owned). As those crew members retire, they hire new staff in DEL. What's the issue? And your next post about NW/KL transatlantic monopoly confuses me. DL does not have any monopoly on transatlantic. In fact all the US3 are feeling the pressure of the LCC flying between US-EU.


When the BOM based managers called the shots (at pm-AI), the airline was still "classy" and represented JRD's vision. They assumed they would be in charge of the merged airline as well even after the shift of main hub to DEL. That didnt happen, and these Punjoo bourgeousie managers from pm-IC effectively took charge leaving the ghati's out in the rain!

So what if the airline is now more efficient and makes money? AI today has no class! They serve J-Class meals on melamine plates?! Can you imagine? Oh the horror! :hissyfit:
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle!
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Fri May 19, 2017 12:42 am

goacom wrote:
As a resident in Austin, I would not consider AI unless my final destination was Delhi. AI cannot guarantee seamless connections to its first and second tier cities due to its poor on-time performance of its domestic service. AI's in flight service is pretty good, but its before and after portions of the flight are dodgy.

As a percentage, a large proportion of AI's delayed flights are not at DEL but at other stations like BOM & HYD. Secondly, AI's "poor OTP" figures are overstated. The OTP figures are based on reports filed by the airlines. And AI, being a govt airline follows the DGCA rule-book to the letter. Airlines like a certain LCC have a more relaxed interpretation of the rule book.

6E for eg will board, push back the stair's and list it down as an On Time departure, even if the airplane sits for an hour on the tarmac after that - has happened to me multiple times. AI will still list this kind of thing as a delay.
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle!
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Air India launches direct DEL-ARN

Fri May 19, 2017 12:46 am

Quoting the FB post of the alrline's chairman might not be official, but its hardly "random". Any way it seems like every other day there is some announcement of a new route from India. AI has been very active, 9W, KL and now AZ announces DEL as well. I wonder what is going on...I think ARN will be a good add for AI. SAS can still add CPH if they want.
 
upwardfacing
Posts: 423
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Re: Air India launches direct DEL-ARN

Fri May 19, 2017 1:12 am

BawliBooch wrote:
upwardfacing wrote:
The reversal was strange, as the CPH announcement was official on Twitter, but there was never any acknowledgment from Copenhagen Airport or any regional or national Danish authorities. Whereas in this case, it's already posted on the Arlanda airport website, and the announcement was made while the Swedish FM was in Delhi, with Swedish media confirming.

Problem is many desi-users have taken to posting random FB feed's as the "official line". Most of those threads are purely speculative.


It was the AI corporate account, not the Facebook feed nor the personal Twitter account of any particular person.

Interestingly DEL-ARN is barely an eight-hour flight, slightly less duration than DEL-VIE, maybe 45 min-1 hour less on the return.

The upcoming WOW Air TLV-KEF will be roughly the same duration on a 321. I should stipulate that I am unsure of the exact 321 model/configuration.

In other words there are potentially lots of opportunities for MAX/NEO nonstops between the Northwest part of India and Eastern/Northern Europe in the coming years as the Indian market develops. As people grow wealthier they are travelling abroad in droves.
 
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HELyes
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Re: Air India launches direct DEL-ARN

Fri May 19, 2017 3:50 am

Great the Nordic area gets a new direct service to India, hopefully the connections work well. At the moment there is Finnair flying HEL-DEL 3-5 times weekly (333), next winter they'll launch seasonal HEL-GOI, served twice weekly (333).
 
vadodara
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Fri May 19, 2017 3:54 am

BawliBooch wrote:
When the BOM based managers called the shots (at pm-AI), the airline was still "classy" and represented JRD's vision.


JRD had a vision, and put his money to run the airline. Power to him. Not to the Ghati managers who were essentially running their own empire funded by govt. money.

BawliBooch wrote:
So what if the airline is now more efficient and makes money? AI today has no class! They serve J-Class meals on melamine plates?! Can you imagine? Oh the horror! :hissyfit:


Isnt that the primary rationale for a business to exist?
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: Air India launches direct DEL-ARN

Fri May 19, 2017 8:15 am

HELyes wrote:
Great the Nordic area gets a new direct service to India, hopefully the connections work well. At the moment there is Finnair flying HEL-DEL 3-5 times weekly (333), next winter they'll launch seasonal HEL-GOI, served twice weekly (333).


IIRC Finnair in the past served BOM as well (343?), but that service didn't last, unlike DEL.
Vahroone
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Fri May 19, 2017 10:33 am

BawliBooch wrote:
As a percentage, a large proportion of AI's delayed flights are not at DEL but at other stations like BOM & HYD. Secondly, AI's "poor OTP" figures are overstated. The OTP figures are based on reports filed by the airlines. And AI, being a govt airline follows the DGCA rule-book to the letter. Airlines like a certain LCC have a more relaxed interpretation of the rule book.

6E for eg will board, push back the stair's and list it down as an On Time departure, even if the airplane sits for an hour on the tarmac after that - has happened to me multiple times. AI will still list this kind of thing as a delay.


Didn't DGCA supposed to fix the rules, so some cannot game the system? Also calculating entire network OTP from sample data at 4 stations is archaic.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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HELyes
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Re: Air India launches direct DEL-ARN

Fri May 19, 2017 5:11 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
HELyes wrote:
Great the Nordic area gets a new direct service to India, hopefully the connections work well. At the moment there is Finnair flying HEL-DEL 3-5 times weekly (333), next winter they'll launch seasonal HEL-GOI, served twice weekly (333).


IIRC Finnair in the past served BOM as well (343?), but that service didn't last, unlike DEL.


Yes Finnair started BOM in 2007 with 343, the service lasted a couple of years.
 
TigerFlyer
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Fri May 19, 2017 8:28 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Ugh this subsidy discussion is pointless. AI would have bought wide bodies with or with EXIM. AI/IA have bought many Airbus frames without EXIM. All airlines operate routes where they lose money. Also losing money is very subjective in airlines because it all depends how you allocate cost. Let's face it, the US3 are very happy pushing traffic US-India though their JVs with EU carriers. Travelers US-India would rather fly nonstop and not be stuck with timings designed for US-EU flights. Until you've been forced to leave a city between 2am-5am, I really don't want to hear about how the old system was great. AI is connecting DEL to the world - and good on them. 9W is going a more traditional approach of partnering with EU and US airlines and pushing traffic through Europe - good on them. This tells me two things (1) there are some pax who like non tops US-India or connecting in DEL and (2) there seems to be overcapacity on the US-EU routes that is motivating EU/US carriers to offer cheap seats to India.



Air India has not made money in at least a decade and they remain afloat solely because of subsidy. This is a problem for market based carriers that must answer to their shareholders.

https://www.google.com/amp/wap.business ... 292_1.html

ExIm is just part of the problem, and as for Airbus, the EU similarly offers below market fianancing. Ironically the only ones who don't benefit are US and EU airlines (by mutual agreement).

Companies in financial shambles don't normally go about adding new planes and routes. AI needs to figure out a sustainable business model, likely focused on domestic and regional -- and partner with other carriers to extend their network. Why they are doing clearly has not worked and my prediction is that more long haul flying is only going to deepen their losses.
 
vadodara
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Sat May 20, 2017 12:28 am

TigerFlyer wrote:
Companies in financial shambles don't normally go about adding new planes and routes. AI needs to figure out a sustainable business model, likely focused on domestic and regional -- and partner with other carriers to extend their network. Why they are doing clearly has not worked and my prediction is that more long haul flying is only going to deepen their losses.


From the present govt.'s perspective, touching Air India is to create unnecessary distractions from the rest of the economic story. Less pain in just throwing the promised money.

In return, the govt. has demanded, and Air India delivered, operational improvements. In that regard, by better deployment of the existing fleet, the connectivity is being improved and hence it is a win-win.

Again, not an ideal situation, but make the best of a bad situation. In the end, Air India will become sufficiently irrelevant that it will die a peaceful death.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Sat May 20, 2017 12:55 pm

BestWestern, is that you???

AI served NYC since 1960s, including fifth freedom flights.
AI served same TWO metro areas(New York,Chicago) since mid 2000s.
Though EXIM promised guarantees in 2006, never gave any guarantees.
Though GOI promised to pay for the 68 planes (50 WB) never paid.
India was downgraded by FAA, while it continued to take deliveries
Even today only 8 out of 50 WBs are used on US routes.

US3 have at-least 10 hubs in USA, can't they serve from any other 8 hubs. SFO and IAD are UA hubs, DFW is a major AA hub. So why aren't they starting service to India.

Had GoI and Boeing not sign this deal, AI would have bought 10xA343s.

AI serves US with non-EXIM non-sovereign guaranteed planes thru global financing and working capital loans at 13%-15% rate from Indian banks.

All GOI need to do is pay for the planes it ordered (not AI) or at least remove restrictions on working capital loans so it can get competitive rates. No other state owned airline is forced to 15% interest rate to state owned sister entities.

Even Malaysia and Zimbabwe are smart enough to recognize and address this issue, but not India.

This is typical American Inc mindset to ignore India first and when others occupy completely, withdraw and complain. General Motors did exact same thing, while the automotive market is growing exponentially, GM made India as a sub to China, now it cannot sell even one car. MB sells more G63 AMGs (or) Audi sells more Q7s than Chevy sells Cruzes.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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unrave
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Sat May 20, 2017 1:23 pm

Why is this troll still being fed?
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
atal17
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Re: Air India to Start Delhi to Copenhagen in May 2017

Tue May 23, 2017 12:02 pm

upwardfacing wrote:
Local Indian media are reporting that AI has announced Stockholm thrice weekly commencing August 15.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 679_1.html

Local Swedish media report the same.

http://www.gp.se/nyheter/ekonomi/sverig ... -1.4289256


Air India formally announces Delhi-Stockholm effective 16AUG17

AI167 DEL1400 - 1820ARN 788 357

AI168 ARN2105 - 0745+1DEL 788 357

Bookings have now commenced!
 
BLRAviation
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Tue May 23, 2017 12:12 pm

[quote="nadavatar64"]Wow thats great! Its about time there will be a nonstop LAX-DEL route! I hope they would also launch JNB, seems like a low hanging fruit.[/quote]Interesting. What aircraft will they use? They are out of 77Ls.
I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
 
hohd
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Tue May 23, 2017 1:53 pm

AI service to ARN might work at 3 times a week. Contrary to what most others comments, AI's delays have been minimal lately, except for to/from BOM, which is congested.

Regarding AI's other services, CPH is now doubtful, especially after ARN has been announced, would be better if it was CPH, but AI stuck with ARN.
DFW or IAH- AI should not even attempt it, as it is a very long route with questionable yields. Both cities have significant VFR traffic but generally low yields, but not much business traffic. LAX I don't know, there is some decent business traffic, perhaps AI should continue to focus on SFO and forget about LAX.
 
ARN
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Tue May 23, 2017 4:42 pm

I just checked the website of Air India and noticed, which surprised me greatly, that Air India arrives
into terminal 2 at ARN. Terminal 5 would be the logical choice given the Star Alliance presence there.
I used the booking platform until the final step. Aint planning to fly ( yet).
Nevertheless great to have them at ARN.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Tue May 23, 2017 5:03 pm

How about 3 weekly to ARN and 4 weekly to CPH. Triangular tags were never successful.

I think AI should partner with Norwegian if it wants to be relevant in future. Now that Ryanair jumped into long haul, legacy alliance and JV days are numbered.

During press conference O'Leary said codeshares are for old people. I guess he really wanted to say legacy alliances and JVs are for losers.

Self-connect is the future, airlines embrace this will succeed.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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climbing230
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Tue May 23, 2017 8:24 pm

Any operational constraints for "Air-India express" not serving HYD?
Wings take you higher
 
devmapper
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Wed May 24, 2017 6:21 am

BLRAviation wrote:
nadavatar64 wrote:
Wow thats great! Its about time there will be a nonstop LAX-DEL route! I hope they would also launch JNB, seems like a low hanging fruit.
Interesting. What aircraft will they use? They are out of 77Ls.


Flightaware shows AI use 77Ws on the DEL-SFO route every alternate day last week. Considering that the longest 77W flight (Saudia SV 41 JED-LAX) is aloft for roughly the same amount of time as AI 173, I wouldn't be surprised to see AI start off DEL-LAX with the 77L, while DEL-SFO goes 77W. That however, assumes that AI will start DEL-LAX.

If you're talking about JNB-DEL/BOM, AI could use its 788s. However, at this point, there has been nothing to suggest AI intends to start that route.
 
devmapper
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Wed May 24, 2017 6:38 am

hohd wrote:
DFW or IAH- AI should not even attempt it, as it is a very long route with questionable yields. Both cities have significant VFR traffic but generally low yields, but not much business traffic. LAX I don't know, there is some decent business traffic, perhaps AI should continue to focus on SFO and forget about LAX.


I think AI is looking to establish another beach-head on the US west coast. This appears to be primarily driven by the Pacific routing for the DEL-SFO leg, which in late spring early summer tailwinds, needs about 16.5 hours time aloft, which AIs 77Ws are able to manage. This means AI can switch out DEL-SFO to 77W, which frees up the 77Ls for another ULH flight. Now logically the only two options are SEA/YVR and LAX. LAX has a larger number of Indian origin folks, which, along with a potential *A connection on UA, probably makes it more attractive than SEA/YVR. Now, when we combine SEA and YVR numbers it maybe close the the LAX number, and SEA probably has closer business ties, but Indian passport holders would not be able to cross the border quickly, which makes it a riskier market to serve.
 
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Irehdna
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Thu May 25, 2017 11:42 pm

AI is going heavy on expansion, and under their current operations will run out of capable long-haul aircraft (until the B789s arrive, which may not be for a while),

Does anybody find it conceivable that AI operate the 77W through a DEL-SYD-DEL-JFK-DEL routing? This can be completed within 72 hours, so only 3 77Ws would be required to run this (2 77Ws are already required currently for daily DEL-JFK-DEL). Something like this could work:

    AI302 DEL1400 - 0700+1SYD 77W D
    AI301 SYD0945 - 1810DEL 77W D

    --Next Day--
    AI101 DEL0030 - 0615JFK 77W D
    AI102 JFK1100 - 1045+1DEL 77W D

Note that only AI102 time would be significantly changed, to approximately 4-5 hours earlier.

Obviously this requires 3 77Ws to run daily, but this would take care of 2 of AI's flagship routes (and the utilization of the 77Ws would increase, as they would not be on the ground for >6.5 hours at one stop). Additionally, SYD and JFK are 2 AI flagship destinations with strong business travel, so filling up J and F won't be as impossible as other routes, like their domestic runs. I think AI could definitely source 77Ws from their domestic or Middle-Eastern runs to make this possible (those could be swapped with the A32Ns), and 2 B788s will be freed in the process.

As for MEL, this becomes difficult as I'm not so sure DEL-MEL can sustain a daily flight. (Technically 1.5 77Ws would be required, but managing that may be more complicated.) If they can, then DEL-MEL-DEL-ORD-DEL could possibly work with 3 77Ws and a similar schedule as DEL-SYD-DEL-JFK-DEL.
 
jupiter2
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Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Fri May 26, 2017 12:08 am

Irehdna wrote:
AI is going heavy on expansion, and under their current operations will run out of capable long-haul aircraft (until the B789s arrive, which may not be for a while),

Does anybody find it conceivable that AI operate the 77W through a DEL-SYD-DEL-JFK-DEL routing? This can be completed within 72 hours, so only 3 77Ws would be required to run this (2 77Ws are already required currently for daily DEL-JFK-DEL). Something like this could work:

    AI302 DEL1400 - 0700+1SYD 77W D
    AI301 SYD0945 - 1810DEL 77W D

    --Next Day--
    AI101 DEL0030 - 0615JFK 77W D
    AI102 JFK1100 - 1045+1DEL 77W D

Note that only AI102 time would be significantly changed, to approximately 4-5 hours earlier.

Obviously this requires 3 77Ws to run daily, but this would take care of 2 of AI's flagship routes (and the utilization of the 77Ws would increase, as they would not be on the ground for >6.5 hours at one stop). Additionally, SYD and JFK are 2 AI flagship destinations with strong business travel, so filling up J and F won't be as impossible as other routes, like their domestic runs. I think AI could definitely source 77Ws from their domestic or Middle-Eastern runs to make this possible (those could be swapped with the A32Ns), and 2 B788s will be freed in the process.

As for MEL, this becomes difficult as I'm not so sure DEL-MEL can sustain a daily flight. (Technically 1.5 77Ws would be required, but managing that may be more complicated.) If they can, then DEL-MEL-DEL-ORD-DEL could possibly work with 3 77Ws and a similar schedule as DEL-SYD-DEL-JFK-DEL.


SYD is only 4 x 788 at the moment and MEL 3 X 788, really couldn't see either port supporting a daily 77W now or in the near future. If anything AI could upgrade both to daily, but even that would be a risk.
 
devmapper
Posts: 219
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:15 pm

Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Fri May 26, 2017 12:38 am

Irehdna wrote:
AI is going heavy on expansion, and under their current operations will run out of capable long-haul aircraft (until the B789s arrive, which may not be for a while),

Does anybody find it conceivable that AI operate the 77W through a DEL-SYD-DEL-JFK-DEL routing? This can be completed within 72 hours, so only 3 77Ws would be required to run this (2 77Ws are already required currently for daily DEL-JFK-DEL). Something like this could work:

    AI302 DEL1400 - 0700+1SYD 77W D
    AI301 SYD0945 - 1810DEL 77W D

    --Next Day--
    AI101 DEL0030 - 0615JFK 77W D
    AI102 JFK1100 - 1045+1DEL 77W D

Note that only AI102 time would be significantly changed, to approximately 4-5 hours earlier.

Obviously this requires 3 77Ws to run daily, but this would take care of 2 of AI's flagship routes (and the utilization of the 77Ws would increase, as they would not be on the ground for >6.5 hours at one stop). Additionally, SYD and JFK are 2 AI flagship destinations with strong business travel, so filling up J and F won't be as impossible as other routes, like their domestic runs. I think AI could definitely source 77Ws from their domestic or Middle-Eastern runs to make this possible (those could be swapped with the A32Ns), and 2 B788s will be freed in the process.

As for MEL, this becomes difficult as I'm not so sure DEL-MEL can sustain a daily flight. (Technically 1.5 77Ws would be required, but managing that may be more complicated.) If they can, then DEL-MEL-DEL-ORD-DEL could possibly work with 3 77Ws and a similar schedule as DEL-SYD-DEL-JFK-DEL.

Does AI have enough demand on the SYD route to add 90 more seats each way without trashing yields? DEL-SYD is still 4 times a week, so I'm not convinced that yields are high enough.

In a best case scenario, AI would probably have 6 North American routes flown daily (DEL-JFK/ORD/IAD/SFO/LAX, BOM-EWR), which would use up all of its current fleet of 77Ws. As much as I'd hope AI to have the remaining 77W on order (2 are for VIP transport) as a backup, it'll probably fly one of the DEL-LHR routes. That just leaves the 3 77Ls with the range to fly to North America. If AI does start DEL-DFW (or IAH), it'll have to use 2 aircraft from the 77L subfleet on that route. So I don't think AI will use 77W on the Australian routes. While admittedly quite inefficient, I think it allows AI to run better checks on the aircraft on the ground at DEL, which in turn reduces the possibility of IRROPS, which AI has been pretty bad at managing in the past. Also, lower cycles on the aircraft that AI owns itself (as opposed to the leased 788).

Tracking the incoming aircraft on the most recent DEL-SYD flight shows that the same aircraft did the FRA-DEL flight. Which means that at the end of its trip, it would have done DEL-FRA-DEL-SYD-DEL.

If AI plans to replace its 77W fleet with 789, it'll have to be a like-for-like replacement, not a 5-6 aircraft subfleet. The oldest 77W (VT-ALJ Bihar) is almost 10 years old and the youngest (VT-ALU Orissa) is nearly 7. Assuming they plan to keep long-haul aircraft for around 12 years (which is the lease length of the 788s), AI has to start inducting 789s in 2-5 years time.
 
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Irehdna
Posts: 388
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:40 am

Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Fri May 26, 2017 2:51 am

devmapper wrote:
Does AI have enough demand on the SYD route to add 90 more seats each way without trashing yields? DEL-SYD is still 4 times a week, so I'm not convinced that yields are high enough.


Oops, forgot DEL-SYD is only 4/wk (honestly don't know why, considering DEL-SFO has more capacity than DEL-SYD).


devmapper wrote:
In a best case scenario, AI would probably have 6 North American routes flown daily (DEL-JFK/ORD/IAD/SFO/LAX, BOM-EWR), which would use up all of its current fleet of 77Ws. As much as I'd hope AI to have the remaining 77W on order (2 are for VIP transport) as a backup, it'll probably fly one of the DEL-LHR routes. That just leaves the 3 77Ls with the range to fly to North America. If AI does start DEL-DFW (or IAH), it'll have to use 2 aircraft from the 77L subfleet on that route. So I don't think AI will use 77W on the Australian routes. While admittedly quite inefficient, I think it allows AI to run better checks on the aircraft on the ground at DEL, which in turn reduces the possibility of IRROPS, which AI has been pretty bad at managing in the past. Also, lower cycles on the aircraft that AI owns itself (as opposed to the leased 788).


I have been told that while the 77W did operate DEL-SFO-DEL nearly every other day last week, it was due to VT-ALG being in the shops at BOM. (This forced AI to operate a 1/3 empty 77W on DEL-SFO-DEL, which seemed to have the range.) I still don't know if a fully-loaded 77W can make the trip.

Also IAD is only 3/week, would find it hard to believe IAD going daily before SYD. IAD will be on the 77L. DEL-IAD distance is in-between that of DEL-ORD and DEL-SFO, and I would imagine the DEL-ORD already must be weight-restricted some days, especially during the winter months. Additionally, IAD GCR is further south than ORD GCR, so it would be more severely affected by seasonal headwinds. Finally, I have been told (don't quote me on this) that AI 77Ws are the 340 tonne variant, not the HGW 351.5 tonne version. For example, SV operates a longer flight JED-LAX on the 77W because they have the HGW version. (I believe CX also uses the HGW variant on its longer flights like JFK and BOS.) This is probably why AI is choosing 77L on DEL-IAD.
 
devmapper
Posts: 219
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:15 pm

Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Fri May 26, 2017 6:05 am

Irehdna wrote:
I have been told that while the 77W did operate DEL-SFO-DEL nearly every other day last week, it was due to VT-ALG being in the shops at BOM. (This forced AI to operate a 1/3 empty 77W on DEL-SFO-DEL, which seemed to have the range.) I still don't know if a fully-loaded 77W can make the trip.

Also IAD is only 3/week, would find it hard to believe IAD going daily before SYD. IAD will be on the 77L. DEL-IAD distance is in-between that of DEL-ORD and DEL-SFO, and I would imagine the DEL-ORD already must be weight-restricted some days, especially during the winter months. Additionally, IAD GCR is further south than ORD GCR, so it would be more severely affected by seasonal headwinds. Finally, I have been told (don't quote me on this) that AI 77Ws are the 340 tonne variant, not the HGW 351.5 tonne version. For example, SV operates a longer flight JED-LAX on the 77W because they have the HGW version. (I believe CX also uses the HGW variant on its longer flights like JFK and BOS.) This is probably why AI is choosing 77L on DEL-IAD.

Well, that's unfortunate for AI then, especially since they decided to sell 5 77Ls to EY. Which also begs the question, if DEL-ORD itself is weight restricted in winter (which I am sceptical about, see personal anecdote below), what is AI doing trying to get 789s? The range advantage over 77W is minimal (IIRC about 300 miles) and even in AI's economy heavy configuration, it would probably represent a downgrade of about 50 seats. Wouldn't AI be better off leasing the 359ULR? And why would the boss man go on about LAX and DFW being the next two destinations in the US?

Personal anecdote: I connected to AI at ORD in January 2015 for a 2 week vacation in India. To save money, I flew out on a Thursday and in on a Monday. Even then, both the flights were almost completely full in both J and Y. So I am sceptical about weight restrictions imposed on the DEL-ORD route. Perhaps AI is unable to carry belly cargo in winter?
 
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Irehdna
Posts: 388
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:40 am

Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Fri May 26, 2017 3:34 pm

Well, if AI cannot get SYD to be daily, they could just do DEL-JFK-DEL-ORD-DEL in 72 hours, also using 3 77Ws vs 4 currently:

    AI101 DEL0030 - 0615JFK 77W D
    AI102 JFK0900 - 0845+1DEL 77W D

    AI127 DEL1115 - 1620ORD 77W D
    AI126 ORD1845 - 1945+1DEL 77W D

Obviously turnaround times would be tight, and the DEL-ORD flight will have to be during daytime, but if AI is desperate about starting US long-hauls then this may be an option they will have to take. Now granted, only 1x 77W will be freed (instead of 788), but that may be enough to start a new US route while maintaining capacities on existing routes.
 
voxkel
Posts: 162
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:17 pm

Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Sat May 27, 2017 9:34 pm

Irehdna wrote:
Well, if AI cannot get SYD to be daily, they could just do DEL-JFK-DEL-ORD-DEL in 72 hours, also using 3 77Ws vs 4 currently:


That wouldn't work, too many people transfer at DEL, not to mention the higher-than-average rates of IRROPS would be problematic with 2 hour turnaround times with such a routing.

What AI needs to do is discontinue AI 131/130 BOM-LHR-BOM flight. There is little reason for that flight to be there. It is poorly timed against 2 (soon to be 3) Jet Airways and 2 British Airways flights on the same route, not to mention 9W and BA are much better respected on the BOM-LHR sector than AI, especially for business travellers. Additionally, BA has good connections at LHR, and 9W has good connections both at BOM and LHR (via DL and VS). AI has barely anything even on the BOM side, and they would have to rely on UA star feed to generate any connecting traffic (which won't happen, given UA already flies to BOM nonstop).

AI cancelled their BOM-CDG and BOM-FRA a while back. I think it is about time they cancel their BOM-LHR flight and use the freed B788 to start new routes from DEL.
 
voxkel
Posts: 162
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:17 pm

Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Mon May 29, 2017 1:44 pm

Another thing AI can do is move their BOM-EWR flight to BOM-JFK; I don't think AI should exit the BOM-USA market just yet.

9W/DL are going to focus heavily on LHR, AMS, and CDG, reducing any incentive for either to start a non-stop. Do you think this is an opportunity for Air India to capitalize on the Mumbai to New York route? From Manhattan (where most of the premium/business traffic comes from), JFK wins 4 out of 5 travellers vs EWR as per this article:

https://www.panynj.gov/airports/pdf-traffic/ATR2016.pdf

Running rather long VFR routes like BOM-EWR will not help AI profits, the route is the worst-performing of AI's long haul routes by money loss per flight. The route is one of AI's longer flights, but the DEL-ORD/SFO/IAD, while longer, command significant business traffic and are monopolies. BOM-EWR is served by UA (AI should codeshare with them), and a good chunk of the Gujarati traffic is now taken care of by the AMD-EWR flight. JFK wins nearly all NYC business traffic compared to EWR, so this may be a route (like LHR) that actually has a chance to fill up AI's F and J class in the 77L.

According to the thread below, AI 140/141 BOM-JFK-BOM operated significantly better than BOM-EWR does today, and I do remember that (after DL left) the BOM-JFK flight was often full. Had BOM-JFK been in operation today, it would be AI's second-best USA route by money surplus after DEL-SFO, with a deficit 10x less than BOM-EWR.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1359537&hilit=air+india+789&start=50
 
User avatar
Irehdna
Posts: 388
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:40 am

Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Mon May 29, 2017 6:30 pm

devmapper wrote:
Well, that's unfortunate for AI then, especially since they decided to sell 5 77Ls to EY. Which also begs the question, if DEL-ORD itself is weight restricted in winter (which I am sceptical about, see personal anecdote below), what is AI doing trying to get 789s? The range advantage over 77W is minimal (IIRC about 300 miles) and even in AI's economy heavy configuration, it would probably represent a downgrade of about 50 seats. Wouldn't AI be better off leasing the 359ULR? And why would the boss man go on about LAX and DFW being the next two destinations in the US?

Personal anecdote: I connected to AI at ORD in January 2015 for a 2 week vacation in India. To save money, I flew out on a Thursday and in on a Monday. Even then, both the flights were almost completely full in both J and Y. So I am sceptical about weight restrictions imposed on the DEL-ORD route. Perhaps AI is unable to carry belly cargo in winter?


I am willing to bet that had AI not sold the 5 77Ls to EY, all US routes (except maybe DEL-JFK) would be on the 77L today. If I remember correctly DEL-ORD and even BOM-EWR were 77L until about November 2013, when AI decided to sell the 77Ls and was forced to operate the 77Ws on the route. Between 2010-2013, DEL-JFK was the only time the AI 77W saw the US. BOM-EWR shouldn't have been that difficult and I don't think there are too many restrictions on that flight, but I would imagine DEL-ORD must be restricted (at least in terms of cargo payload) on the 77W.

I guess AI saw the 788s came in and replace the EU/Asia routes that the 77Ws previously operated, and saw more value to discard the 77Ls than 77Ws, because at the time AI didn't have plans for truly ULH routes, so the 77Ls would dump money on shorter, sometimes domestic, routes. But now AI does have the ULH DEL-SFO, with IAD and LAX in the pipelines. A 77W can make the trip from DEL-SFO, but IMO such an operation will bleed money as a 77W on DEL-SFO would essentially be a fuel-tanker with few bookable seats.
 
Nimish
Posts: 2969
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:46 pm

Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Tue May 30, 2017 8:23 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Why US3 cannot succeed on Indian routes
-US3 don't want to serve Indian food to Indian passengers on a flight to India. 16+ hours without food for a paid passenger, while others are enjoying Angus beef.

I've flown UA numerous times to BOM/DEL and to FRA as well. Each time I've been very pleasantly surprised with their AVML catering. As surprising as this sounds, it rocks - far better than AI's greasy food. I specifically order AVML on UA as it's so good!

And BTW - UA fills the BOM/ DEL flights with Indian vegetarian options - there's no shortage of Indian food these days. Perhaps it was different in the past.
Incredible India!
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1202
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Tue May 30, 2017 1:05 pm

I don't know why people keep insisting that BOM-JFK would be better, to would not because (1) AI is a VFR airline and the BULK of new immigration has all gone to NJ and not NY. This is a big shift from the 70's and 80's. Plus punjabis still go to NY and Guj go to NJ (hence the JFK-DEL and BOM-EWR). Just look at census data, its not even close anymore, (2) the report that everyone quotes were that person's estimates and not real facts. EWR-BOM usually prices at a good premium and UA rarely offers award seats on it while JFK-DEL is usually available, (3) AI is in Star and Star flyers live in NJ. JFK is OW and ST world so how would that benefit AI?

On the discussion about AI still serving LH from BOM, they still have a good FF base of affluent travelers in BOM. To serve this group, serving LHR and NYC are key flights. Plus they are high O&D volume.
 
Someone83
Posts: 4820
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Tue May 30, 2017 1:18 pm

According to Copenhagen Airport, Air India is starting DEL-CPH 3x weekly from September 16. One month after they start DEL-ARN
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8278
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Tue May 30, 2017 2:07 pm

Best would be to drop BOM-EWR, put them on BOM-LHR and connect them on to LHR-EWR. I know Mumbaikars having a fit reading this opinion, relax it is just an opinion.
All posts are just opinions.
 
killswitch13
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:52 pm

Re: AI plans several new long hauls for 2017

Tue May 30, 2017 2:42 pm

AI to fly direct to Copenhagen from Delhi.
http://m.deccanherald.com/articles.php? ... ights.html
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