Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
  • 21
 
billreid
Posts: 761
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:04 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:00 am

Amiga500 wrote:
billreid wrote:
ROFL. Any upgrades to an older bird that has already been upgraded umpteem times is like comparing my 2008 Volvo to a brand new 2017 Volvo.


Your ironically kinda right.

How long would you have to run a 2017 Volvo before you'd make up the difference in fuel costs that would justify selling your 2008 model and buying a 2017 model? (of roughly equivalent spec)


Yes, a new aircraft (same as the new car) will make improvements in various areas - but they will all be pretty incremental. But will those improvements add up to a greater sum than the extra build/buy cost? That *is* one of the large questions Boeing are wrestling with. I don't envy them.



That is what its about. Envision any airline being visited by sales teams from each manufacturer. They speak to costs and savings. Then they talk about efficiencies and comfort. So Airbus goes in and says, "Well we have upgraded the wing, improved fuel savings and range by 8%. Boarding time will be a bit slow but it's offset by cost savings. You have commonality with the 225 A320's you already own. Etc. Etc." Then Boeing goes in the next day with a new B797 sales pitch. They offer greater capacity at a lower CASM. The bird is quieter, faster boarding saving ground time, the range is 26% better as a small widebody than the A321's with their new wing. Fuel savings is 12% better in the MOM range. You pull out your calculator and figure out it saves your company $775,000 per year in costs and brings in potential for another $2,300,000 per year in increased revenues. That works out to $46,125,000 over fifteen years.

These numbers are fictitious but the reality is the B797 will be specifically targeted to the MOM and that means AB will not have a true product in that range.
Back to the Volvo analogy. You go to the dealership looking for a station wagon needed to suit your business. Your analysis renders that the stationwagon is the superior choice. You go to ford and the choice is a crossover that is too small and a large SUV that doesn't work near as well. So what do you do?

You buy the one that fits the task you have defined best.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
parapente
Posts: 3061
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:42 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:10 am

Thx Fred but what about pavement loading?But perhaps I am wrong here (again!)
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 3710
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:34 am

parapente wrote:
Thx Fred but what about pavement loading?But perhaps I am wrong here (again!)
I think they tried to encompass that, I haven't ever done pavement loading calculations so I cant say for certain but I don't think the A32X and 737s are tearing airport runways apart and aren't very restricted in what airports they can use, yes there were soe early A320s with 4 wheel bogies but they were for use on very rough runways so I'm not sure that is representative.

Fred
Image
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:45 am

billreid wrote:
These numbers are fictitious but the reality is the B797 will be specifically targeted to the MOM and that means AB will not have a true product in that range.


Maybe. Maybe not.

AvWeek had a piece indicating that the modal response for the MoM was actually carrying ~250 passengers 5000 nm.

**If** that is the case, then both the 737-10 and A321LR are already fairly encroached on the lower end of that (capacity).


Now, how many routes do you think any individual airline would fly that would require the full range capability? How many aircraft would this translate into? If an A322 (stretch, rewing, thrust bump) were to carry 240 passengers 4500nm, then do airlines see the additional range of the 797, or do they see the common type rating and common maintenance of the A322?


I don't think there is a single right answer to this. Some airlines would favour a 797, some an A322. The issue for Boeing is somehow ensuring the 797 performance (in fuel burn per seat mile) is so much better than the A321 (and A322) that performance evaluation is heavily stinted in their favour - as most other metrics will line up against the 797.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24780
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:17 am

Amiga500 wrote:
AvWeek had a piece indicating that the modal response for the MoM was actually carrying ~250 passengers 5000 nm.

**If** that is the case, then both the 737-10 and A321LR are already fairly encroached on the lower end of that (capacity).

Not exactly -- AvWeek ( http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show- ... needed-nma ) said:

The vast majority of respondents (90%) want fewer than 250 seats in a two-class configuration and up to 5,000-nm range (76%). A significant percentage of respondents (24%) want even more than the 5,000 nm.

The existing narrow bodies aren't carrying 250 in two-class configuration for 5,000nm or even more, they only get close to 250 in ULCC configuration.

I'll grant that the A321LR is within striking distance and a "A320++" even closer, but still, I think the NMA/MOM will be in its own size/range class. It will have to be to meet the needs of some of its more vocal supporters (UA) and to create a distinction for itself.

parapente wrote:
Re above comments.Feels like the shoe salesman in Africa.Either he sees a huge market because nobodies wearing shoes or no market at all.

I like the analogy, but there are some shoe wearers around that need new shoes (the few remaining 767/757 users) but the big problem is we need to make a new shoe factory to service the market so getting the business case right is crucial.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9408
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:18 am

billreid wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
billreid wrote:
ROFL. Any upgrades to an older bird that has already been upgraded umpteem times is like comparing my 2008 Volvo to a brand new 2017 Volvo.


Your ironically kinda right.

How long would you have to run a 2017 Volvo before you'd make up the difference in fuel costs that would justify selling your 2008 model and buying a 2017 model? (of roughly equivalent spec)


Yes, a new aircraft (same as the new car) will make improvements in various areas - but they will all be pretty incremental. But will those improvements add up to a greater sum than the extra build/buy cost? That *is* one of the large questions Boeing are wrestling with. I don't envy them.



That is what its about. Envision any airline being visited by sales teams from each manufacturer. They speak to costs and savings. Then they talk about efficiencies and comfort. So Airbus goes in and says, "Well we have upgraded the wing, improved fuel savings and range by 8%. Boarding time will be a bit slow but it's offset by cost savings. You have commonality with the 225 A320's you already own. Etc. Etc." Then Boeing goes in the next day with a new B797 sales pitch. They offer greater capacity at a lower CASM. The bird is quieter, faster boarding saving ground time, the range is 26% better as a small widebody than the A321's with their new wing. Fuel savings is 12% better in the MOM range. You pull out your calculator and figure out it saves your company $775,000 per year in costs and brings in potential for another $2,300,000 per year in increased revenues. That works out to $46,125,000 over fifteen years.

These numbers are fictitious but the reality is the B797 will be specifically targeted to the MOM and that means AB will not have a true product in that range.
Back to the Volvo analogy. You go to the dealership looking for a station wagon needed to suit your business. Your analysis renders that the stationwagon is the superior choice. You go to ford and the choice is a crossover that is too small and a large SUV that doesn't work near as well. So what do you do?

You buy the one that fits the task you have defined best.


The point is that you are dreaming. The range can well be a wash because to much range will make the 797 heavy. Fuel burn, it will be great if the 797 matches today´s fuel burn per seat of 737-10 or A321neo over a longer range. I give you boarding time, but I doubt that it will manage to underbid a single aisle current narrow body in investment per seat. Add to that, that it will be a dog in regards to freight, as a singe row of LD3-45, in a rather short body, will not amount to much. I know that freight is down, but on long thin routes, offering no other fast connection, time sensitive perishable freight still gives money.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24780
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:30 am

mjoelnir wrote:
The range can well be a wash because to much range will make the 797 heavy.

As above, the AvWeek survey suggest range is what the market is demanding the most, and current tech is far better at increasing range without the kind of weight penalties one got in the 80s era tech of the current A320 family, the one JL is suggesting is already good enough.

mjoelnir wrote:
Fuel burn, it will be great if the 797 matches today´s fuel burn per seat of 737-10 or A321neo over a longer range. I give you boarding time, but I doubt that it will manage to underbid a single aisle current narrow body in investment per seat. Add to that, that it will be a dog in regards to freight, as a singe row of LD3-45, in a rather short body, will not amount to much. I know that freight is down, but on long thin routes, offering no other fast connection, time sensitive perishable freight still gives money.

You and your fish! :-)

The 797 will definitely be better at fuel burn per seat than 737-10 or A321neo over a longer range. If it isn't, it won't be built!!!

And 737-10 or A321neo over a longer range are both poor at freight, they need to use the MTOW for fuel, not fish!
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9408
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:49 am

Revelation wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The range can well be a wash because to much range will make the 797 heavy.

As above, the AvWeek survey suggest range is what the market is demanding the most, and current tech is far better at increasing range without the kind of weight penalties one got in the 80s era tech of the current A320 family, the one JL is suggesting is already good enough.

mjoelnir wrote:
Fuel burn, it will be great if the 797 matches today´s fuel burn per seat of 737-10 or A321neo over a longer range. I give you boarding time, but I doubt that it will manage to underbid a single aisle current narrow body in investment per seat. Add to that, that it will be a dog in regards to freight, as a singe row of LD3-45, in a rather short body, will not amount to much. I know that freight is down, but on long thin routes, offering no other fast connection, time sensitive perishable freight still gives money.

You and your fish! :-)

The 797 will definitely be better at fuel burn per seat than 737-10 or A321neo over a longer range. If it isn't, it won't be built!!!

And 737-10 or A321neo over a longer range are both poor at freight, they need to use the MTOW for fuel, not fish!


To clear up any misunderstanding, I meant the same fuel burn per seat per hour flight, that a current narrow body has, over a longer range, more hours.
If some body dreams about, a possible 797 having a lower fuel burn per seat per hour flight, he will have a rough awakening.
Furthermore, any technology that could possible push a 797 in full burn per hour under the current narrow bodies, will push the next narrow bodies below the 797 again.
 
StTim
Posts: 3752
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:17 pm

I believe the 4 wheel bogey was to reduce the pavement loading at some of the less robustly built airports in India.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3642
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:25 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Revelation wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The range can well be a wash because to much range will make the 797 heavy.

As above, the AvWeek survey suggest range is what the market is demanding the most, and current tech is far better at increasing range without the kind of weight penalties one got in the 80s era tech of the current A320 family, the one JL is suggesting is already good enough.

mjoelnir wrote:
Fuel burn, it will be great if the 797 matches today´s fuel burn per seat of 737-10 or A321neo over a longer range. I give you boarding time, but I doubt that it will manage to underbid a single aisle current narrow body in investment per seat. Add to that, that it will be a dog in regards to freight, as a singe row of LD3-45, in a rather short body, will not amount to much. I know that freight is down, but on long thin routes, offering no other fast connection, time sensitive perishable freight still gives money.

You and your fish! :-)

The 797 will definitely be better at fuel burn per seat than 737-10 or A321neo over a longer range. If it isn't, it won't be built!!!

And 737-10 or A321neo over a longer range are both poor at freight, they need to use the MTOW for fuel, not fish!


To clear up any misunderstanding, I meant the same fuel burn per seat per hour flight, that a current narrow body has, over a longer range, more hours.
If some body dreams about, a possible 797 having a lower fuel burn per seat per hour flight, he will have a rough awakening.
Furthermore, any technology that could possible push a 797 in full burn per hour under the current narrow bodies, will push the next narrow bodies below the 797 again.


I fully believe that it is possible and in my mind likely that a 797 will have lower fuel burn per seat than the A321neo or 737-10 in a high density configuration stretched version. A higher capacity 797 flying routes like HKG-SIN would be expected to have lower fuel burn per seat.
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14094
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:19 pm

I don't expect the 797 t become a single aisle, although I don't believe it would be bad idea, up to 250 passengers two class.

Image

Anyway it seems Boeing is aiming at "narrrowbody efficiency below deck" which can be translated into AKH capability.

Which wouldn't be bad in terms of e.g. moving seafood. Maybe some Nordic operators could show interest..

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9408
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:01 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Revelation wrote:
As above, the AvWeek survey suggest range is what the market is demanding the most, and current tech is far better at increasing range without the kind of weight penalties one got in the 80s era tech of the current A320 family, the one JL is suggesting is already good enough.


You and your fish! :-)

The 797 will definitely be better at fuel burn per seat than 737-10 or A321neo over a longer range. If it isn't, it won't be built!!!

And 737-10 or A321neo over a longer range are both poor at freight, they need to use the MTOW for fuel, not fish!


To clear up any misunderstanding, I meant the same fuel burn per seat per hour flight, that a current narrow body has, over a longer range, more hours.
If some body dreams about, a possible 797 having a lower fuel burn per seat per hour flight, he will have a rough awakening.
Furthermore, any technology that could possible push a 797 in full burn per hour under the current narrow bodies, will push the next narrow bodies below the 797 again.


I fully believe that it is possible and in my mind likely that a 797 will have lower fuel burn per seat than the A321neo or 737-10 in a high density configuration stretched version. A higher capacity 797 flying routes like HKG-SIN would be expected to have lower fuel burn per seat.


Keep on dreaming and perhaps invent new physics. Boeing talks about a wide body with narrow body economics, you of course dream a step beyond.
 
User avatar
JetBuddy
Posts: 2578
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:22 pm

There's another thread discussing how Norwegian is all over the 797, and wants to be first in line:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1367161

The most interesting bit from the interview is this:
Kjos said that a 797 could fly about 250 passengers efficiently from London to medium-size cities like Pittsburgh and Memphis or from Scandinavia to most of Asia.

And eventually, Kjos said, it would replace all of the 737 Max jets that it will be flying. The Max jets delivered this week will be nearly ten years old by the time the 797 is ready for passengers.

Kjos says the bigger 797 with more seating than the 737 Max would allow the airline to grow without adding more flights.

"They don't build runways anymore," he said. "So how should you grow -- have to upscale the aircraft."


This means Kjos envisions the 797 will replace the MAX in their fleets 10 years from now. I would imagine Norwegian has information on this "MoM" most of us don't. This is pure speculation, but I think it's likely that Boeing is considering a three size 797, where the smaller one is slightly larger than the A321 with more range, a middle one with 250 mixed seats and 5000nm range, and perhaps an even larger one with 4500nm range.

CNN interview with Bjørn Kjos:
http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/29/news/co ... index.html
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14094
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:18 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
There's another thread discussing how Norwegian is all over the 797, and wants to be first in line:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1367161

The most interesting bit from the interview is this:
Kjos said that a 797 could fly about 250 passengers efficiently from London to medium-size cities like Pittsburgh and Memphis or from Scandinavia to most of Asia.

And eventually, Kjos said, it would replace all of the 737 Max jets that it will be flying. The Max jets delivered this week will be nearly ten years old by the time the 797 is ready for passengers.

Kjos says the bigger 797 with more seating than the 737 Max would allow the airline to grow without adding more flights.

"They don't build runways anymore," he said. "So how should you grow -- have to upscale the aircraft."


This means Kjos envisions the 797 will replace the MAX in their fleets 10 years from now. I would imagine Norwegian has information on this "MoM" most of us don't. This is pure speculation, but I think it's likely that Boeing is considering a three size 797, where the smaller one is slightly larger than the A321 with more range, a middle one with 250 mixed seats and 5000nm range, and perhaps an even larger one with 4500nm range.

CNN interview with Bjørn Kjos:
http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/29/news/co ... index.html


I think that because Boeing moved up their NMA specification in terms of capacity & range, Airbus also has some extra space to position their potential Plus-Plus.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4410
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:54 pm

A 2-3-2 layout with 17 inch seats will likely be more comfortable than a 3-3 with 18 inch seats. Add about a 33 inch pitch in Economy Plus with a modern seat, and the comfort equals an old 707 from the 1960s. This could make enough difference for an increase in ticket price. I understand that the 380 supports a small but significant price premium. Many of us would choose the more comfortable.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14094
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:59 pm

I actively avoid narrow seats / aisles. Too much rubbing / bumping.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
parapente
Posts: 3061
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:42 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:17 pm

To. State the obvious,regarding an Airbus response.Its all tied up in the line "250 pax 2 class".That is a 270 pne class aircraft and for a narrowbody thats looooooong.No doubt that's why Boeing exec's made the comment (a few times) about row 64 e or similar.
It can be done (Boeing did it with the 757-300).But it really isn't optimal.
But Airbus don't have to slavishly copy Boeing.They can make it a little smaller and indeed even slightly lower range.No doubt they are getting customer feedback as we write.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4410
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:04 pm

the new MAX 10 comes close enough to be somewhat competitive with the new 321. Airbus does not have to match the 797 with a 322, just be reasonably close. The exception would be an all new MOM defining a big as opposed to medium niche. In that case Airbus would need to do something big. But they will have time, and they are making good profits on their current lineup, with only one exception. Spectacular orders for a Boeing MOM would not wreck their profits, but it would demand a strong response.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4410
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:10 pm

keesje wrote:
I actively avoid narrow seats / aisles. Too much rubbing / bumping.


a 2-3-2 has only 1 per 7 passengers with passengers on two sides, versus 2 per 6 on an NB. 33% down to 14%.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14094
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:27 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
keesje wrote:
I actively avoid narrow seats / aisles. Too much rubbing / bumping.


a 2-3-2 has only 1 per 7 passengers with passengers on two sides, versus 2 per 6 on an NB. 33% down to 14%.


Airlines that introduce 17 inch seats also have to introduce narrow aisles to get that extra seat. Result is people & trolleys bumping / touching you all day/ night. The middle seat passenger next to you, pushes you more into the aisle.. Aisle seats ain't what they used to be, I moved back to window seats..

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
ElroyJetson
Posts: 849
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 5:04 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:44 pm

Keep in mind the A320 is a 30 year old design. The logic applied to Boeing's 737 now applies to an Airbus revamp. You can only polish a turd so many times. Obviously a clean sheet design will be superior to a 30 year old technology, even with a new wing and other bells and whistles.

I get why Airbus wants to rein in costs. But an A322 is a stopgap....nothing more.
707 717 727 72S 737 733 737-700 747 757 753 767-300 764 A319 A320 DC-9-10 DC-9-30 DC-9-50, MD-82 MD-88 MD-90 DC-10-10 DC-10-40 F-100
 
User avatar
ElroyJetson
Posts: 849
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 5:04 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:45 pm

One other thing....I agree with a number of posters.....the sweet spot of the MOM is 200-250 pax with 5000nm range.

The A321-LR is the best alternative to the 757, but it is too small.....lacks sufficient range....and basically has zero cargo capability to the aux fuel tanks.

I hope either Boeing or Airbus comes up with a true clean sheet design that adequately addresses the market.
707 717 727 72S 737 733 737-700 747 757 753 767-300 764 A319 A320 DC-9-10 DC-9-30 DC-9-50, MD-82 MD-88 MD-90 DC-10-10 DC-10-40 F-100
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:52 pm

keesje wrote:
I actively avoid narrow seats / aisles. Too much rubbing / bumping.


Are you their target customer? Do most people prefer 2-3-2 or 3-3? I would guess that given the choice, many would choose to fly on the former for privacy and convenience, even if their seat and aisles were slightly narrower.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3642
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:14 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
keesje wrote:
I actively avoid narrow seats / aisles. Too much rubbing / bumping.


Are you their target customer? Do most people prefer 2-3-2 or 3-3? I would guess that given the choice, many would choose to fly on the former for privacy and convenience, even if their seat and aisles were slightly narrower.



I am seeing more and more 300+ pound people who require lap belt extensions. Keesje's extra wide airplane concept may appeal to them. However in the real world airlines overwhelmingly find 17-18 inch seats acceptable. I would expect passengers to prefer a 2×3×2 layout. Few people actually get out a measuring tape other than on a.net for the never ending seat width debate threads.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:20 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
keesje wrote:
I actively avoid narrow seats / aisles. Too much rubbing / bumping.


Are you their target customer? Do most people prefer 2-3-2 or 3-3? I would guess that given the choice, many would choose to fly on the former for privacy and convenience, even if their seat and aisles were slightly narrower.



I am seeing more and more 300+ pound people who require lap belt extensions. Keesje's extra wide airplane concept may appeal to them. However in the real world airlines overwhelmingly find 17-18 inch seats acceptable. I would expect passengers to prefer a 2×3×2 layout. Few people actually get out a measuring tape other than on a.net for the never ending seat width debate threads.


Of course. And I hope I didn't offend Keesje if that's what he was concerned about. However, as you say, for the vast majority of the traveling public, price is number 1, and airlines will cater to that. If the A322 is the right plane for that, great. But it won't be because it's seats and aisle are a touch wider outside of a few specific carrier needs. IMHO of course.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3642
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:02 pm

Here is an article about being an obese passenger:

https://futuretravel.today/what-it-s-li ... 006e263778

With all the comments about airplane cabin width, Keesje may sympathize with this demographic of passenger especially those who can't afford premium classes. However I don't see airlines and investing heavily for that demographic. Most passengers as you say want cheaper fares.
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14094
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:19 pm

I prefer 2-3-2 if the seats if equally wide. Many airlines and Boeing stumble over each other stating it's unimportant and love to distract with "new seats, IFE", big windows etc.
Great theories are constructed to support predetermined outcomes (you can't make an aircraft wider).

Luckily most aircraft seats sold over the last 10 years are 18 inch wide (A320+A330+A350+A380+ 777 9 abreast are more than 737+787+777 10 abreast)

:champagne: Lets draw far reaching conclusion and generalizations based on that :wave:
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:34 pm

keesje wrote:
I prefer 2-3-2 if the seats if equally wide. Many airlines and Boeing stumble over each other stating it's unimportant and love to distract with "new seats, IFE", big windows etc.
Great theories are constructed to support predetermined outcomes (you can't make an aircraft wider).

Luckily most aircraft seats sold over the last 10 years are 18 inch wide (A320+A330+A350+A380+ 777 9 abreast are more than 737+787+777 10 abreast)

:champagne: Lets draw far reaching conclusion and generalizations based on that :wave:


1. You prefer 2-3-2 over 3-3 if the seats are the same? Knock me over with a feather. I'd like to know who wouldn't?
2. Your over-emphasis on seat size belies the reality that airline seat width is not the end-all be-all of the airline business.
3. Continue on your usual path, though, Keesje. Consistency is key.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
SCAT15F
Posts: 719
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:34 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:17 am

How about a 2-2-2 narrowbody with 18" seats? Fast exit times without having the extra-width of 2-3-2...
 
Kikko19
Posts: 681
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:54 am

SCAT15F wrote:
How about a 2-2-2 narrowbody with 18" seats? Fast exit times without having the extra-width of 2-3-2...

Usual problem bigger tube equals more consumption and more materials. No producers would go for it. Every penny count. Only a revolutionary design would work but at what cost? So we'll stay with 3+3, 2 4 2 or 3 3/4 3. Until the revolution... IMHO.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9744
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:12 am

2-3-2 is possible when you trade aisle and seat width for the extra aisle.
 
parapente
Posts: 3061
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:42 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:06 pm

Actually most Airbus aircraft 'can' be 18" wide.But that not to say they 'are'.Airbus also plays the armrest 'game' note A350.
It appears that Boeing are settling on 17.5".Even then sometimes the armrest game is used.But it's a fraction more than their old 17.3" 'standard'.A good example is the 777X.It can be 18" but it 'will' be 17.5" with decent aisles.
17.5" is close enough to 18" to stop people complaining (IMHO).As such My bet will be that this will be the Y seat width in the 2x3x2 ovoid fuse.Not amazingly good but good enough and that's all that matters.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4410
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:37 pm

I have wondered why a few wider seats in awkward places, close to rest rooms or galleys, could not be squeezed in. Older planes often had some taper at the rear and if that taper improved aerodynamics, it could also be used for a seat or two that was a couple inches wider. My 'inner architect' says take advantage of problems, because they can be used to solve other problems.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3642
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:01 pm

[photoid][/photoid]
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I have wondered why a few wider seats in awkward places, close to rest rooms or galleys, could not be squeezed in. Older planes often had some taper at the rear and if that taper improved aerodynamics, it could also be used for a seat or two that was a couple inches wider. My 'inner architect' says take advantage of problems, because they can be used to solve other problems.


New planes have tapers too. The last three rows on a 737 have 16 or 16.5 inch wide seats. Unfortunately airlines usually go narrower than wider.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5452
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:36 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Revelation wrote:
As above, the AvWeek survey suggest range is what the market is demanding the most, and current tech is far better at increasing range without the kind of weight penalties one got in the 80s era tech of the current A320 family, the one JL is suggesting is already good enough.


You and your fish! :-)

The 797 will definitely be better at fuel burn per seat than 737-10 or A321neo over a longer range. If it isn't, it won't be built!!!

And 737-10 or A321neo over a longer range are both poor at freight, they need to use the MTOW for fuel, not fish!


To clear up any misunderstanding, I meant the same fuel burn per seat per hour flight, that a current narrow body has, over a longer range, more hours.
If some body dreams about, a possible 797 having a lower fuel burn per seat per hour flight, he will have a rough awakening.
Furthermore, any technology that could possible push a 797 in full burn per hour under the current narrow bodies, will push the next narrow bodies below the 797 again.


I fully believe that it is possible and in my mind likely that a 797 will have lower fuel burn per seat than the A321neo or 737-10 in a high density configuration stretched version. A higher capacity 797 flying routes like HKG-SIN would be expected to have lower fuel burn per seat.

I have flown hkg to sin 7 times in the past 18 months and it has never been smaller than a330. And my upcoming trips on this route are all 350 or 777.

It's interesting that intra Asia between major hubs get stated as one prime use case of 797, but most of them are actually operated by 330 and 777.
 
User avatar
AirlineCritic
Posts: 1771
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:07 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:16 am

Regarding the discussion of the 250 passengers and how whether current models can cover that sufficiently or not:

Obviously, there are questions about capability... you can always find needs not fulfilled. And there's a significant question about technical viability (e.g., lower costs *and* capability, can the manufacturers do it?)

The real question IMHO, however, is the size of the market. How many planes would be bought by airlines in the 250seat category?
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 3710
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:13 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

Are you their target customer? Do most people prefer 2-3-2 or 3-3? I would guess that given the choice, many would choose to fly on the former for privacy and convenience, even if their seat and aisles were slightly narrower.



I am seeing more and more 300+ pound people who require lap belt extensions. Keesje's extra wide airplane concept may appeal to them. However in the real world airlines overwhelmingly find 17-18 inch seats acceptable. I would expect passengers to prefer a 2×3×2 layout. Few people actually get out a measuring tape other than on a.net for the never ending seat width debate threads.


Of course. And I hope I didn't offend Keesje if that's what he was concerned about. However, as you say, for the vast majority of the traveling public, price is number 1, and airlines will cater to that. If the A322 is the right plane for that, great. But it won't be because it's seats and aisle are a touch wider outside of a few specific carrier needs. IMHO of course.

You appear to be suggesting that 2-3-2 @17" is cheaper per seat than [email protected]" per seat. So unless you think you can squeeze down a 3" aisle then the 2-3-2 at a given tech level will be heavier, more expensive and have a higher surface are per west than the single aisle.

Fred
Image
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2858
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:57 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
I get why Airbus wants to rein in costs. But an A322 is a stopgap....nothing more.


You might call it a stopgap. Others might call it a sensible hedge. The future will prove one side right, and I am pretty confident it won't be the one you're on.
 
Balaguru
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 11:09 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:10 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
keesje wrote:
I actively avoid narrow seats / aisles. Too much rubbing / bumping.


Are you their target customer? Do most people prefer 2-3-2 or 3-3? I would guess that given the choice, many would choose to fly on the former for privacy and convenience, even if their seat and aisles were slightly narrower.



I am seeing more and more 300+ pound people who require lap belt extensions. Keesje's extra wide airplane concept may appeal to them. However in the real world airlines overwhelmingly find 17-18 inch seats acceptable. I would expect passengers to prefer a 2×3×2 layout. Few people actually get out a measuring tape other than on a.net for the never ending seat width debate threads.


No offense to anybody, but since when do passengers get to choose what equipment they fly on?
 
User avatar
BoeingVista
Posts: 2060
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:54 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:20 am

Balaguru wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

Are you their target customer? Do most people prefer 2-3-2 or 3-3? I would guess that given the choice, many would choose to fly on the former for privacy and convenience, even if their seat and aisles were slightly narrower.



I am seeing more and more 300+ pound people who require lap belt extensions. Keesje's extra wide airplane concept may appeal to them. However in the real world airlines overwhelmingly find 17-18 inch seats acceptable. I would expect passengers to prefer a 2×3×2 layout. Few people actually get out a measuring tape other than on a.net for the never ending seat width debate threads.


No offense to anybody, but since when do passengers get to choose what equipment they fly on?


Seriously? I always check the equipment before I book, obviously I have no control about what actually turns up at the gate.
BV
 
Balaguru
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 11:09 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:37 am

BoeingVista wrote:
Balaguru wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:


I am seeing more and more 300+ pound people who require lap belt extensions. Keesje's extra wide airplane concept may appeal to them. However in the real world airlines overwhelmingly find 17-18 inch seats acceptable. I would expect passengers to prefer a 2×3×2 layout. Few people actually get out a measuring tape other than on a.net for the never ending seat width debate threads.


No offense to anybody, but since when do passengers get to choose what equipment they fly on?


Seriously? I always check the equipment before I book, obviously I have no control about what actually turns up at the gate.


Exactly my point, I check "Seatguru", "Flightaware" and a couple of other sites to make an informed decision about which seat I must request during web check in, but many times, I just get a text saying my seat assignment has changed due to change in equipment. Case in point. I flew IND-DTW-AMS in 2008 and I was told it would be NW A320-200 from IND-DTW, I got a 757-200 instead and I was expecting a NW 747-400 for DTW-AMS, but got a A 330-200 instead. I am not saying it happens every time and anyway most passengers would book their tickets based on price, not based on seat pitch or width or IFE.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:50 am

flipdewaf wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:


I am seeing more and more 300+ pound people who require lap belt extensions. Keesje's extra wide airplane concept may appeal to them. However in the real world airlines overwhelmingly find 17-18 inch seats acceptable. I would expect passengers to prefer a 2×3×2 layout. Few people actually get out a measuring tape other than on a.net for the never ending seat width debate threads.


Of course. And I hope I didn't offend Keesje if that's what he was concerned about. However, as you say, for the vast majority of the traveling public, price is number 1, and airlines will cater to that. If the A322 is the right plane for that, great. But it won't be because it's seats and aisle are a touch wider outside of a few specific carrier needs. IMHO of course.

You appear to be suggesting that 2-3-2 @17" is cheaper per seat than [email protected]" per seat. So unless you think you can squeeze down a 3" aisle then the 2-3-2 at a given tech level will be heavier, more expensive and have a higher surface are per west than the single aisle.

Fred


I don't think I said that at all.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Egerton
Posts: 864
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:50 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:13 am

I favour Airbus secretly building an all-new A322. When this was well established, smaller new winged, smaller capacity variants A321-2, A320-2, A319-2 etc could flow into the production system step by step. If this concept were to be designed for lowest cost of production, and with potential much bigger volumes, it should give Airbus shareholders a very good return on their capital. I cannot predict what Boeing might do, nor do I care.

If Airbus did this they would be repeating Rolls-Royce's current Advance and Ultra-Fan strategies. When winning use your advantage to keep on winning.
 
User avatar
ElroyJetson
Posts: 849
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 5:04 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:16 pm

aviationaware wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
I get why Airbus wants to rein in costs. But an A322 is a stopgap....nothing more.


You might call it a stopgap. Others might call it a sensible hedge. The future will prove one side right, and I am pretty confident it won't be the one you're on.



I remember the same crystal ball predictions about the 787. How did that turn out? :D Airlines will generally choose a more efficient clean sheet design vs a warmed over 30 year old design. That is basic common sense.

The A320 back in the late 1980's and early 1990's was a very efficient, new clean sheet design. Remember? It has obviously sold well. Ditto the 777 and 787.

If Boeing makes the 797 with at least a 10-15% improvement in efficiency over existing MOM technology (and they will) Airbus will get beaten badly. Sure, they'll sell some frames with a warmed over 30 + year old design...but it is still a stopgap...and Everyone will know it.
707 717 727 72S 737 733 737-700 747 757 753 767-300 764 A319 A320 DC-9-10 DC-9-30 DC-9-50, MD-82 MD-88 MD-90 DC-10-10 DC-10-40 F-100
 
User avatar
sassiciai
Posts: 1121
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:26 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:44 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
I get why Airbus wants to rein in costs. But an A322 is a stopgap....nothing more.


You might call it a stopgap. Others might call it a sensible hedge. The future will prove one side right, and I am pretty confident it won't be the one you're on.



I remember the same crystal ball predictions about the 787. How did that turn out? :D Airlines will generally choose a more efficient clean sheet design vs a warmed over 30 year old design. That is basic common sense.

The A320 back in the late 1980's and early 1990's was a very efficient, new clean sheet design. Remember? It has obviously sold well. Ditto the 777 and 787.

If Boeing makes the 797 with at least a 10-15% improvement in efficiency over existing MOM technology (and they will) Airbus will get beaten badly. Sure, they'll sell some frames with a warmed over 30 + year old design...but it is still a stopgap...and Everyone will know it.

Another poster claiming this!

I'll ask Elroy - if you already own a house, will you bet your house on the new plane achieving the marketing dreams that you regurgitate? Let me know if you are ready to sign up for that, bring your property documents with you!
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2688
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:00 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
I get why Airbus wants to rein in costs. But an A322 is a stopgap....nothing more.


You might call it a stopgap. Others might call it a sensible hedge. The future will prove one side right, and I am pretty confident it won't be the one you're on.



I remember the same crystal ball predictions about the 787. How did that turn out? :D Airlines will generally choose a more efficient clean sheet design vs a warmed over 30 year old design. That is basic common sense.

The A320 back in the late 1980's and early 1990's was a very efficient, new clean sheet design. Remember? It has obviously sold well. Ditto the 777 and 787.

If Boeing makes the 797 with at least a 10-15% improvement in efficiency over existing MOM technology (and they will) Airbus will get beaten badly. Sure, they'll sell some frames with a warmed over 30 + year old design...but it is still a stopgap...and Everyone will know it.


Airlines will generally choose a more efficient clean sheet design over an older one? Not necessarily true. The 737 (which is over 50 years old now)has always been competitive against the A320 through the 'stopgap' NG and MAX variants, the A330 competes against the 787 well and the 777 hasn't missed a beat even with the A350 around. With a redesigned/larger A321, Airbus can get availability advantage, cost of acquisition advantage and leverage on the extremely large A32X customer base. They may be able to simply compete on cost and wherever airlines don't need the excess capability. You pay for capability, but not all airlines will need it.
 
scotron11
Posts: 1432
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:54 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:29 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
I get why Airbus wants to rein in costs. But an A322 is a stopgap....nothing more.


You might call it a stopgap. Others might call it a sensible hedge. The future will prove one side right, and I am pretty confident it won't be the one you're on.



I remember the same crystal ball predictions about the 787. How did that turn out? :D Airlines will generally choose a more efficient clean sheet design vs a warmed over 30 year old design. That is basic common sense.

The A320 back in the late 1980's and early 1990's was a very efficient, new clean sheet design. Remember? It has obviously sold well. Ditto the 777 and 787.

If Boeing makes the 797 with at least a 10-15% improvement in efficiency over existing MOM technology (and they will) Airbus will get beaten badly. Sure, they'll sell some frames with a warmed over 30 + year old design...but it is still a stopgap...and Everyone will know it.


Notwithstanding that the 737 is 20yrs older! Only reason the 737MAX is around is because Airbus launched the NEO. And even then the 737MAX wasn't enough...the NEO still ate their lunch. OMG...Now what? The 737-10.....whoop de do! and possibility of an 797 or MOM.......makes me think of all those "promises" Boeing made on the 787....and we all know how that panned out.

I think JL is right.....let Boeing do their thing.....the NEO will do just fine.
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2858
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:44 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
Airlines will generally choose a more efficient clean sheet design vs a warmed over 30 year old design. That is basic common sense.


That's a plain fallacy. They tend to prefer it if they need something new anyway and have no commonality to lose because what they are phasing out is a type of its own anyway. Even then, many airlines like older, 'less capable' planes because they come cheaper (as evidenced by the A330s huge success during the same timeframe the 787 had its sales successes).

Thinking all airlines will jump on the new MoM, or even that most airlines will do so is a dangerous assumption. Airbus can take a far less risky road with a potential A322 or even just a few more tweaks to the A321neo LR and take a whole heap of sales from Boeing's new plane just for the fact that it can do MOST of the missions and keep commonality with present fleets.

Also, the airframe market isn't infinitely large. A MoM might enlarge it, but a certain share of its sales will be cannibalization from other programs, and not just the A321/2. If Boeing makes the plane too long range-ish, it will eat into 787 sales. The 787 needs sales. It's not profitable yet.

I certainly hope Boeing has learned how to properly develop and aircraft within budget from the massive fiscal failure of the 787 development, because otherwise going MoM might have dire financial consequences for them.

Don't take an MoM success anywhere near granted.
 
User avatar
ElroyJetson
Posts: 849
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 5:04 am

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:53 pm

scotron11 wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

You might call it a stopgap. Others might call it a sensible hedge. The future will prove one side right, and I am pretty confident it won't be the one you're on.



I remember the same crystal ball predictions about the 787. How did that turn out? :D Airlines will generally choose a more efficient clean sheet design vs a warmed over 30 year old design. That is basic common sense.

The A320 back in the late 1980's and early 1990's was a very efficient, new clean sheet design. Remember? It has obviously sold well. Ditto the 777 and 787.

If Boeing makes the 797 with at least a 10-15% improvement in efficiency over existing MOM technology (and they will) Airbus will get beaten badly. Sure, they'll sell some frames with a warmed over 30 + year old design...but it is still a stopgap...and Everyone will know it.


Notwithstanding that the 737 is 20yrs older! Only reason the 737MAX is around is because Airbus launched the NEO. And even then the 737MAX wasn't enough...the NEO still ate their lunch. OMG...Now what? The 737-10.....whoop de do! and possibility of an 797 or MOM.......makes me think of all those "promises" Boeing made on the 787....and we all know how that panned out.

I think JL is right.....let Boeing do their thing.....the NEO will do just fine.





The 787 is an outstanding aircraft that has sold extremely well.....early problems notwithstanding. To say otherwise is both foolish and ignorant.

The various arguments regarding a new technology 797 frankly don't hold water. The plane...if built, will be highly efficient, otherwise it will not be built.

Can Airbus get close with a rewinged 30 year old design? Possibly. But it will still be a 30 year old design. Airbus went through this when they tried to do a warmed over A330 vs a clean sheet A350.

The market told them a warmed over idea was a nonstarter. I would say the A350 has worked out well four them....wouldn't you?

I have zero doubt a 797 will be an outstanding airplane if built. Airbus will eventually need to counter with something new or lose market share. It is really that simple.
707 717 727 72S 737 733 737-700 747 757 753 767-300 764 A319 A320 DC-9-10 DC-9-30 DC-9-50, MD-82 MD-88 MD-90 DC-10-10 DC-10-40 F-100
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2858
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Airbus weighs response if Boeing launches new mid-market model

Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:28 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:




The 787 is an outstanding aircraft that has sold extremely well.....early problems notwithstanding. To say otherwise is both foolish and ignorant.


It doesn't earn any money. It probably never will. Engineering marvel, but fiscal failure. Boeing will be very careful before touching a clean sheet ever again - they won't just do it to annoy Airbus and take market share away from them.
  • 1
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
  • 21

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos