klm617
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What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 1:25 pm

My question is why is does Delta consider Seattle to be a better choice as an hub for Asia than Narita. AA and UA still have a lot of their traffic flowing over NRT as far as Asian connections go. What is the advantage of using SEA over NRT for west coast connections. Delta could have still used their 767s from the west coast to NRT and continue to use NRT as their hub getting passengers to SIN, BKK,TPE and the like not to mention that they could flow the west coast domestic connections over SLC because SEA isn't really well positioned for west coast connection say is you are going from SAN to DEN. Because really when you think about it they are catering to the LAX, SFO crowd but they could have offered even more options for on stop service to Asia than they do over Seattle without all the expense of creating another hub where they are in direct competition with so many other carriers. Just think that DL could have been just as effective at getting it's customers from the west coast to Asia without all the added expense that it encored by building out Seattle.
Last edited by atcsundevil on Wed May 10, 2017 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed all caps from title
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SRQKEF
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Re: WHAT MAKES SEA BETTER THAN NRT FOR DELTA

Wed May 10, 2017 1:39 pm

Go easy on the caps there buddy.

First off, SEA has a large O&D catchment area which has perhaps been underserved in the past. It also functions very well as a connecting point all the way from the midwest and east from there. Another factor is that SEA is the closest point from Asia on the US mainland which enables DL to use smaller aircraft if needed.
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FSDan
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Re: WHAT MAKES SEA BETTER THAN NRT FOR DELTA

Wed May 10, 2017 1:45 pm

First off, no need to yell in the thread title...

The only reason AA and UA have a lot of traffic flow over NRT is because they both have JV partners there (JL and NH, respectively). With UA closing NRT-ICN in the near future, there will be no more beyond-NRT flights on either AA's or UA's own metal.

Reasons why NRT is no longer an optimal Asia hub for DL:
1) While it is still very important, Japan isn't in the same place in the world economy that it was 20 years ago. China, South Korea, Taiwan, etc. have all emerged as economic powers, broadening the business market in East Asia significantly.
2) Aircraft range has improved, and smaller jets than the 747 are now able to cross the Pacific, opening up possibilities for nonstop routes that just didn't exist before. As new nonstops open up, it is no longer competitive to funnel your passengers XXX-SEA/LAX/MSP/DTW-NRT-YYY.
3) With HND opening up to daytime flights from the U.S., DL was significantly disadvantaged by not having a Japanese partner. UA and AA can utilize NH's and JL's hubs at HND to connect their passengers all over Japan and to important cities throughout Asia, in addition to linking the biggest O&D centers in the U.S. with the more convenient Tokyo airport. DL did what they could to get some slots, but without a partner at HND they will always have a token presence. At the same time, moving some flights over to HND further weakened their connecting power at NRT.

SEA isn't the biggest O&D market out there, but it was certainly the most attractive option from a competition standpoint (not to mention gate availability). If you look at the sheer number of Asian airlines at SFO and LAX (often with multiple daily flights), you see why neither of those is attractive as a place to start a new Asia hub. At the time DL started their Asia hub at SEA, SEA had no nonstop service to places like PVG and HKG. Add in the fact that SEA is the most geographically advantageous point in the contiguous 48 states when it comes to flying to East Asia, and it makes sense why DL would choose to expand their already significant (thanks to NW) presence there. Also, keep in mind that at the beginning DL was working with AS rather than directly competing with them on a lot of routes. The competition came later when DL decided they were better off calling their own shots in SEA.
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TWA772LR
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Re: WHAT MAKES SEA BETTER THAN NRT FOR DELTA

Wed May 10, 2017 1:48 pm

The higher yielding pax would rather do a short flight and then a long flight, not the reverse if you stop in NRT than continue somewhere else. Someone can do GEG-SEA-Asia on DL now, but if Delta tried to only hit the major US cities from Tokyo, they would miss the smaller market feed that they have funneling through their hubs.

The NRT hub is just a remnant of a bygone era. It is no longer necessary.
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TerminalD
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 1:49 pm

I think they have realized internationally SEA is no better than NRT, which is why they are doing the JV with KE finally.
 
jplatts
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Re: WHAT MAKES SEA BETTER THAN NRT FOR DELTA

Wed May 10, 2017 2:04 pm

Delta now has nonstops from Seattle to destinations in Alaska and western Canada, and Delta does not have any nonstops from Tokyo to Alaska or Canada. Delta also has nonstops from Seattle to Salt Lake City, Cincinnati, New York City, and Boston, but does not serve these cities nonstop from Tokyo.
 
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Re: WHAT MAKES SEA BETTER THAN NRT FOR DELTA

Wed May 10, 2017 2:06 pm

FSDan wrote:
The only reason AA and UA have a lot of traffic flow over NRT is because they both have JV partners there (JL and NH, respectively). With UA closing NRT-ICN in the near future, there will be no more beyond-NRT flights on either AA's or UA's own metal.

Reasons why NRT is no longer an optimal Asia hub for DL:
1) While it is still very important, Japan isn't in the same place in the world economy that it was 20 years ago. China, South Korea, Taiwan, etc. have all emerged as economic powers, broadening the business market in East Asia significantly.
2) Aircraft range has improved, and smaller jets than the 747 are now able to cross the Pacific, opening up possibilities for nonstop routes that just didn't exist before. As new nonstops open up, it is no longer competitive to funnel your passengers XXX-SEA/LAX/MSP/DTW-NRT-YYY.
3) With HND opening up to daytime flights from the U.S., DL was significantly disadvantaged by not having a Japanese partner. UA and AA can utilize NH's and JL's hubs at HND to connect their passengers all over Japan and to important cities throughout Asia, in addition to linking the biggest O&D centers in the U.S. with the more convenient Tokyo airport. DL did what they could to get some slots, but without a partner at HND they will always have a token presence. At the same time, moving some flights over to HND further weakened their connecting power at NRT.

SEA isn't the biggest O&D market out there, but it was certainly the most attractive option from a competition standpoint (not to mention gate availability). If you look at the sheer number of Asian airlines at SFO and LAX (often with multiple daily flights), you see why neither of those is attractive as a place to start a new Asia hub. At the time DL started their Asia hub at SEA, SEA had no nonstop service to places like PVG and HKG. Add in the fact that SEA is the most geographically advantageous point in the contiguous 48 states when it comes to flying to East Asia, and it makes sense why DL would choose to expand their already significant (thanks to NW) presence there. Also, keep in mind that at the beginning DL was working with AS rather than directly competing with them on a lot of routes. The competition came later when DL decided they were better off calling their own shots in SEA.



This has to be one of the best written responses I've seen here in a while. Factual, concise and absolutely correct.

If anyone has any questions about this thread, see this post and then you're done.
 
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 2:17 pm

It has to do with the increased viability of Trans-Pacific flying and DL adapting to that new reality. With the proliferation of non-stop flights from the West Coast, and non-stop and one-stop options from the East Coast, connecting from the major West Coast cities and double-connecting from the East Coast became an unsustainable business model. SEA is just one part of the solution, the others being ICN, LAX, and yes, DTW.

These are or will be the general roles of each with regards to Asia:
SEA: connects the Western US to the Tier 1 cities in Asia
LAX: connects the largest city on the West Coast to the largest cities in Asia
DTW: connects the Eastern US to the Tier 1 cities in Asia
ICN: connects the largest cities in the US to all of Asia

Now there are some exceptions to that. For example, DL will be more inclined to sell PVG connections through DTW, LAX, and SEA because China won't be part of the KE JV, so DL will want to keep that revenue for itself. But as you can see, there's little overlap between those hubs when it comes to Asia; each of them serves a specialized role, versus the catch-all solution that was the NRT hub. Growing on the West Coast also meant DL could vastly increase its feed with flights to smaller markets where it could offer a more competitive offering.

So it's not that SEA by itself is necessarily better than NRT, but that it's much better than NRT when taken in conjunction with the other pieces around it: DTW, LAX, and ICN.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 2:52 pm

DL can put a lot more feed and connect a lot more cities one stop to Asia through SEA than through NRT.
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Re: WHAT MAKES SEA BETTER THAN NRT FOR DELTA

Wed May 10, 2017 2:57 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
The higher yielding pax would rather do a short flight and then a long flight, not the reverse if you stop in NRT than continue somewhere else.

I don't get your point. People travel in both directions so short/long on the outbound means that on the return it will be long/short and vice versa.
 
jbs2886
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Re: WHAT MAKES SEA BETTER THAN NRT FOR DELTA

Wed May 10, 2017 3:21 pm

jplatts wrote:
Delta now has nonstops from Seattle to destinations in Alaska and western Canada, and Delta does not have any nonstops from Tokyo to Alaska or Canada. Delta also has nonstops from Seattle to Salt Lake City, Cincinnati, New York City, and Boston, but does not serve these cities nonstop from Tokyo.


OK? Reciting which cities have non-stops doesn't address the issue - which is why not build NRT instead of SEA. DL could have added all those cities from NRT theoretically (idk about Canada).

Edit: to the OP, thanks for not making this about DTW (although I think you don't like SEA because of DTW, but still, progress)!
 
klm617
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Re: WHAT MAKES SEA BETTER THAN NRT FOR DELTA

Wed May 10, 2017 3:42 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
Delta now has nonstops from Seattle to destinations in Alaska and western Canada, and Delta does not have any nonstops from Tokyo to Alaska or Canada. Delta also has nonstops from Seattle to Salt Lake City, Cincinnati, New York City, and Boston, but does not serve these cities nonstop from Tokyo.


OK? Reciting which cities have non-stops doesn't address the issue - which is why not build NRT instead of SEA. DL could have added all those cities from NRT theoretically (idk about Canada).

Edit: to the OP, thanks for not making this about DTW (although I think you don't like SEA because of DTW, but still, progress)!


Not true my mind is not that closed but I was thinking as an Asia gateway Seattle only gives you one stop service to NRT,ICN,PVG,PEK and HKG where if you hub over NRT there are so many more one stop viable connections that can be made and you can still use the 767 from most of the west coast to NRT so what is the relevance of Seattle as a major hub to Asia in the Delta network when NRT can offer you better one stop service. Sure you could use Seattle as a focus city and again AA and UA are still for all intense purposes using NRT to flow the majority of their Asian connections over.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
jbs2886
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Re: WHAT MAKES SEA BETTER THAN NRT FOR DELTA

Wed May 10, 2017 3:48 pm

klm617 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
Delta now has nonstops from Seattle to destinations in Alaska and western Canada, and Delta does not have any nonstops from Tokyo to Alaska or Canada. Delta also has nonstops from Seattle to Salt Lake City, Cincinnati, New York City, and Boston, but does not serve these cities nonstop from Tokyo.


OK? Reciting which cities have non-stops doesn't address the issue - which is why not build NRT instead of SEA. DL could have added all those cities from NRT theoretically (idk about Canada).

Edit: to the OP, thanks for not making this about DTW (although I think you don't like SEA because of DTW, but still, progress)!


Not true my mind is not that closed but I was thinking as an Asia gateway Seattle only gives you one stop service to NRT,ICN,PVG,PEK and HKG where if you hub over NRT there are so many more one stop viable connections that can be made and you can still use the 767 from most of the west coast to NRT so what is the relevance of Seattle as a major hub to Asia in the Delta network when NRT can offer you better one stop service. Sure you could use Seattle as a focus city and again AA and UA are still for all intense purposes using NRT to flow the majority of their Asian connections over.


I do agree with you, it does limit destinations - although they are becoming possible at least technically with new aircraft - economically is a different story. I think what we are going to see is maybe a destination or two (three at most) from SEA added after the new FIS. The rest of those destinations will be from ICN giving you what you are discussing about with NRT. The JV with Korean is coming. Crankly Flier has a great interview with Bastian (http://crankyflier.com/2017/05/08/perfe ... r-pacific/) where Bastian discusses that even through the rocky relationship after buying NW (frankly, I think it was just Richard Anderson, who I do like otherwise) he kept a very close relationship with the Korean Air chairman. DL speaks highly of the new ICN airport. Korean has a very good network in the US and Canada that DL can help build out.
 
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Re: WHAT MAKES SEA BETTER THAN NRT FOR DELTA

Wed May 10, 2017 3:48 pm

klm617 wrote:
Not true my mind is not that closed but I was thinking as an Asia gateway Seattle only gives you one stop service to NRT,ICN,PVG,PEK and HKG where if you hub over NRT there are so many more one stop viable connections that can be made and you can still use the 767 from most of the west coast to NRT so what is the relevance of Seattle as a major hub to Asia in the Delta network when NRT can offer you better one stop service. Sure you could use Seattle as a focus city and again AA and UA are still for all intense purposes using NRT to flow the majority of their Asian connections over.


AA and UA can do that because they have a JV partner in NRT (JL/NH) do it for them. DL doesn't so if they want to take passengers ex-NRT it would have to be on their own metal - which is what, for instance UA used to do a lot but basically scrapped completely in lieu of ceding it to their JV partner.

DL looks like they're going to try this with KE and ICN, but it doesn't make sense to station a bunch of planes to fly ex-NRT on very competitive routes.

It is also easier to funnel a lot of traffic through SEA than it is through NRT if DL is going to propose one-stops to HKG/ICN/PVG/etc.

The argument you can make is can they use NRT to allow one-stops to secondary markets in Asia (or primary in SE Asia - BKK, SIN, etc.), which is what, I'm guessing, is the plan with KE.
 
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 6:47 pm

Back in the 90's when DL wanted to go to Asia, but only had MD-11's, they tried to start a PDX hub, which was logical, as there was lots of competition in SFO and LAX, and both UA and NW had a number of routes that would be competition in SEA. PDX proved not sustainable, but when UA focused their attention on consolidating strength at SFO, and then DL and NW merged, it gave DL a foot in the door into the west coast Asian hub they had always wanted. Now with a built up domestic feed, SEA offers short enough flights to Asia to offer a compelling alternative to NW's old NRT hub. If it was wildly profitable, I'm sure they would keep both, but they obviously see some redundancy. Maliciously, I think DL is betting that someday they will rule SEA, and turn it into what UA has at SFO both Intl and Dom.
 
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 7:17 pm

1) As more a/c are capable of operating from the West Coast to further Asia markets (such as SIN, it's probably coming), there is less and less need to connect pax through a closer Asia market.
2) Delta would rather use JV partnerships to connect beyond most closer Asia hubs (read ICN and PVG). Less risk and more onward options.
3) EUG will never have non-stops to NRT, nor will most of the domestic cities Delta operates to from SEA. By operating a trans-pacific hub in SEA (and DTW), they can eliminate a connection to most major cities. With the old NRT model, there were often two stops.
4) Delta hates NRT. If they could get enough slots to open a small focus city in HND, they likely would. But that won't happen, so it's just another reason they are going to mostly JV to smaller Asia markets.
Last edited by flyfresno on Wed May 10, 2017 7:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 7:18 pm

It sure as hell ain't the weather.
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c933103
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 7:36 pm

The thing about a hub on US side instead of Asian side is that, while it have an advantage in connecting smaller US cities to provide one stop service to major Asian destination for them, it would be harder to provide one-stop service to major US cities for smaller Asian cities, for example CGO(Zhengzhou China)/KHH(Kaohsiung Taiwan)/DAD(Da Nang Vietnam)/CNX(Chiang Mai Thailand), all of them can sustain multiple flights to ICN/NRT, however it would be hard to even imagine they can sustain a nonstop flight to a hub located within US mainland.
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fightforlove
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 7:38 pm

Curious, what SEA-Asia nonstops is Delta currently operating/planning to operate?
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 8:10 pm

The cost of operating a hub in NRT has not yet been mentioned. All the Delta pilots are US based, so there was a lot of deadheading going on and limited numbers of hours that pilots could work out of NRT. Maintenance and parts is also an added expense in addition to the crew costs. There also costs ferrying the planes for maintenance that are based in Asia.
 
ILUVDC10S
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 8:34 pm

Another nail in the NWA coffin. Weeps!
DL wants everything to go thru ATL face it folks.
IF DL kept the NWA NRT assets we would not be having this discussion here.
 
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 8:36 pm

ILUVDC10S wrote:
Another nail in the NWA coffin. Weeps!
DL wants everything to go thru ATL face it folks.
IF DL kept the NWA NRT assets we would not be having this discussion here.


They did. They kept DTW and MSP as well as a solid Asian work.
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IPFreely
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 8:38 pm

klm617 wrote:
My question is why is does Delta consider Seattle to be a better choice as an hub for Asia than Narita.


Does it really matter? The days of Northwest or Northwest Orient are long gone. Delta is not a big player in the Pacific anyway and the new JV with KE will make UA stronger and DL more of a virtual airline in the future,as far as trans-Pacific flying.
 
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 8:54 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
DL can put a lot more feed and connect a lot more cities one stop to Asia through SEA than through NRT.


The JV with Korean Air might be the final nail in the coffin there.
 
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 8:54 pm

ILUVDC10S wrote:
Another nail in the NWA coffin. Weeps!
DL wants everything to go thru ATL face it folks.
IF DL kept the NWA NRT assets we would not be having this discussion here.


Geez, another "DL hates every other hub except ATL" poster.

Read some of the posts (especially #3 and #8) above to educate yourself as to why DL is scaling back Narita. You'll learn something.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 8:57 pm

fightforlove wrote:
Curious, what SEA-Asia nonstops is Delta currently operating/planning to operate?


SEA-NRT
SEA-HKG
SEA-PEK
SEA-PVG
SEA-ICN


DL also tried SEA-KIX and SEA-HND but each have been discontinued.

SEA-TPE has been rumored, but I've yet to see it happen. Not sure what else I could imagine as being feasible, maybe CAN.
 
johns624
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 8:58 pm

ILUVDC10S wrote:
Another nail in the NWA coffin. Weeps!
DL wants everything to go thru ATL face it folks.
IF DL kept the NWA NRT assets we would not be having this discussion here.

You're the only one mentioning ATL. This thread is about SEA.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 8:59 pm

11725Flyer wrote:
ILUVDC10S wrote:
Another nail in the NWA coffin. Weeps!
DL wants everything to go thru ATL face it folks.
IF DL kept the NWA NRT assets we would not be having this discussion here.


Geez, another "DL hates every other hub except ATL" poster.

Read some of the posts (especially #3 and #8) above to educate yourself as to why DL is scaling back Narita. You'll learn something.


They hate every hub except ATL. That's why DL is building up SEA and has added two Europe flights from SLC in the past few years.

Keep in mind this is from the same A.net poster who thinks that twin engine airplanes flying ETOPS routes will fall out of the sky.
 
ILUVDC10S
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 9:03 pm

11725Flyer wrote:
ILUVDC10S wrote:
Another nail in the NWA coffin. Weeps!
DL wants everything to go thru ATL face it folks.
IF DL kept the NWA NRT assets we would not be having this discussion here.


Geez, another "DL hates every other hub except ATL" poster.

Read some of the posts (especially #3 and #8) above to educate yourself as to why DL is scaling back Narita. You'll learn something.

I did . and Yes I did learn a few things FYI I stand by my statement respectfully .
 
Sightseer
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 9:05 pm

c933103 wrote:
The thing about a hub on US side instead of Asian side is that, while it have an advantage in connecting smaller US cities to provide one stop service to major Asian destination for them, it would be harder to provide one-stop service to major US cities for smaller Asian cities, for example CGO(Zhengzhou China)/KHH(Kaohsiung Taiwan)/DAD(Da Nang Vietnam)/CNX(Chiang Mai Thailand), all of them can sustain multiple flights to ICN/NRT, however it would be hard to even imagine they can sustain a nonstop flight to a hub located within US mainland.


True, DL is likely never going to serve a city like CNX from SEA, or anywhere in the US, but it was likely never going to be able to profitably fly those routes from NRT either; as a fifth-freedom carrier, it would always be at a disadvantage to the local carriers in those markets. This was less of an issue in the larger cities that DL/NW served from NRT due to the sheer volume of the demand from those cities, to both NRT and the US. However, the combination of more nonstop competition across the Pacific, the liberalizing of HND service, and the ability to rely on KE to access those smaller markets (much as KE will rely on DL for access to places like GSP or SDF), means that the economic rationale for continuing the beyond-NRT flights is quickly vanishing.
 
ILUVDC10S
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 9:06 pm

johns624 wrote:
ILUVDC10S wrote:
Another nail in the NWA coffin. Weeps!
DL wants everything to go thru ATL face it folks.
IF DL kept the NWA NRT assets we would not be having this discussion here.

You're the only one mentioning ATL. This thread is about SEA.

In due time I forsee it coming down the pipeline and most of what I have forsaw has become reality .
 
fightforlove
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 9:17 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
fightforlove wrote:
Curious, what SEA-Asia nonstops is Delta currently operating/planning to operate?


SEA-NRT
SEA-HKG
SEA-PEK
SEA-PVG
SEA-ICN


DL also tried SEA-KIX and SEA-HND but each have been discontinued.

SEA-TPE has been rumored, but I've yet to see it happen. Not sure what else I could imagine as being feasible, maybe CAN.


Good to see them bring back SEA-HKG. I flew Northwest SEA-HKG in the 90s on a 747-200, my first international trip out of the country.
 
steex
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Re: WHAT MAKES SEA BETTER THAN NRT FOR DELTA

Wed May 10, 2017 9:25 pm

klm617 wrote:
Not true my mind is not that closed but I was thinking as an Asia gateway Seattle only gives you one stop service to NRT,ICN,PVG,PEK and HKG where if you hub over NRT there are so many more one stop viable connections that can be made and you can still use the 767 from most of the west coast to NRT so what is the relevance of Seattle as a major hub to Asia in the Delta network when NRT can offer you better one stop service. Sure you could use Seattle as a focus city and again AA and UA are still for all intense purposes using NRT to flow the majority of their Asian connections over.


Don't forget that DL does not have unlimited rights to fly intra-Asia from NRT because they are not a Japanese airline. Fifth freedom requires that every beyond-NRT flight be paired up with a US-NRT flight number, so building a meaningful hub presence would require a tremendous amount of US-NRT lift (even taking Guam, Saipan, HNL, etc. into account). Even then, bilateral agreements make it such that not all routes are even eligible for fifth freedom rights via NRT (this was the problem with NRT-SGN, no fifth freedom).

Because of this, DL could obviously never offer the breadth or frequency of service on NRT-Asia routes that Japanese carriers are offering. This puts DL (and NW before it) at a tremendous disadvantage in attracting high-yield customers on intra-Asia flights ex-NRT, in turn making the intra-Asia network performance very shaky on a local basis. UA/NH (not just UA) and AA/JL (not just AA) flowing a lot of traffic over Tokyo is not an apples-to-apples comparison to what DL could do without a Japanese partner because NH and JL can easily offer a huge frequency on major destinations from Tokyo to capture the local market, then just serve the international-to-international connections as a bi-product of their robust schedule.

Given the inability to serve the local market in Tokyo competitively, even if one were to make the assumption that the TPAC performance would be equal between NRT and SEA (a spurious assumption), the overall contribution of SEA to the bottom line undoubtedly far outstrips NRT at this point.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 9:28 pm

1) Cost. Operating a Seattle hub is much cheaper.
2) Delta serves more destinations from Seattle than Tokyo.
3) NRT hubs were more of an issue when airlines couldnt fly routes like NYC-HKG nonstop.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
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11725Flyer
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 9:41 pm

ILUVDC10S wrote:
In due time I forsee it coming down the pipeline and most of what I have forsaw has become reality .


Keeping this focused on SEA and NRT, what have you foresaw?
 
johns624
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 9:42 pm

ILUVDC10S wrote:
In due time I forsee it coming down the pipeline and most of what I have forsaw has become reality .

Did you forsee the majority of trans-ocean flights being on ETOPS twins with a fantastic safety record?
 
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N644US
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Re: WHAT MAKES SEA BETTER THAN NRT FOR DELTA

Wed May 10, 2017 9:46 pm

klm617 wrote:
Seattle only gives you one stop service to NRT,ICN,PVG,PEK and HKG where if you hub over NRT there are so many more one stop viable connections that can be made


Seattle serves Tokyo, Seoul, Shanghai, Beijing, and Hong Kong. Sure, there are gaps in the system, however that isn't the point of SEA -- that's what the J/V with KE is for. Back in its heyday NRT served places like PUS, TPE, BKK, SIN, and the rest of the works. Unfortunately, those flights are no longer needed with the new J/V with KE and the fact that connections via NRT and an additional hub weren't viable. As a consumer in BDL (just an example based on where I live), would I like to fly Delta from BDL-DTW-NRT-TPE (3 legs) or would I like to fly United from BDL-SFO-TPE (2 legs)? The latter is much less stressful and easier to deal with compared to the former. This applies across just about the entire US, unless you happen to live in a city with DL service to NRT which is only about 5% of the US population.

klm617 wrote:
and you can still use the 767 from most of the west coast to NRT so what is the relevance of Seattle as a major hub to Asia in the Delta network when NRT can offer you better one stop service.

The 767 can fly from, say, SEA-NRT or LAX-NRT, however there aren't all too many cities that can actually support service to NRT with such little O/D and connecting feed. GEG and SMF, for example, are nowhere close to receiving a 767, nonetheless any aircraft, flying directly to NRT even if it meant there were a hub as large as JL or NH's on the other end to facilitate connections. As a result, people in smaller West Coast cities need to fly routings like SMF-SEA-NRT-SIN or SAN-SEA-NRT-SIN to reach their destination on DL when they could just as easily fly UA from SMF-SFO-SIN or JL from SAN-NRT-SIN. That aside, the main 4 West Coast cities (LAX, SFO, SEA, YVR) either have too little demand (LAX-HND for O/D plus OAL nonstops, UA takes most local feed from SFO, SEA is already connected) or most likely don't have traffic rights (YVR isn't a city in the US), meaning that the remaining cities either don't have enough demand to support NRT or already have easier connections, make it unviable As a result, it is easier to connect via SEA to the majority of destinations people in those cities/towns wish to go to.

klm617 wrote:
Sure you could use Seattle as a focus city and again AA and UA are still for all intense purposes using NRT to flow the majority of their Asian connections over.


1. UA serves SFO, LAX (barely), DEN, IAH, ORD, IAD, and EWR which are the major hubs they have, and AA serves LAX, PHX, DFW, ORD, MIA, CLT, PHL, and JFK which are AA's major hubs. SEA is not a focus city, just a city connected to their respective airline's hubs.
2. It's all intents and purposes, not intensive purposes.
3. As others have already said, UA has NH and AA has JL for connections on the NRT side to fly passengers. Delta is left on their own to fly their own metal, and doesn't even have half the connections that UA/AA has in NRT.
Aviation: the field where (almost) anything can be solved using math and science.
 
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SLCUT2777
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 9:50 pm

klm617 wrote:
they could flow the west coast domestic connections over SLC because SEA isn't really well positioned for west coast connection say is you are going from SAN to DEN.

Are we sure this also isn't a "why doesn't DL just pull out of SLC?" thread...
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 10:12 pm

'We want to have our fifth freedom rights in Asia!' says Delta.

'We operate Dubai-Milan-JFK and Dubai-Athens-Newark with fifth freedom rights too' says Emirates.

'How DARE you! It's so UNFAIR!' retorts Delta.

:D
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klm617
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 10:33 pm

As I though more on it I would agree the main reason is the coast to operate those flights from Seattle rather than Narita is much cheaper. I'm also thinking with the KE JV that SEA is done as far as more Nonstops to Asia and DTW-HKG is now pretty redundant as HKG can not be reached through ICN from most every major city in the USA they may even drop SEA-HKG now because it's more effective to use KE to get US based passengers to HKG as they are very weak in that market any way so their presence in HKG doesn't really matter as KE can provide better one stop connections over ICN
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
ILUVDC10S
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 11:11 pm

johns624 wrote:
ILUVDC10S wrote:
In due time I forsee it coming down the pipeline and most of what I have forsaw has become reality .

Did you forsee the majority of trans-ocean flights being on ETOPS twins with a fantastic safety record?

When you travel by air its a game of chance . I just press my luck with my aircraft of choice.
However If it were me I would choose NRT over SEA Personally I do not do well on West Coast to Asia flights just like the BOS LHR flights are a haven for jet lag .
 
ILUVDC10S
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 11:22 pm

11725Flyer wrote:
ILUVDC10S wrote:
In due time I forsee it coming down the pipeline and most of what I have forsaw has become reality .


Keeping this focused on SEA and NRT, what have you foresaw?

I forsaw the visceration of what NWA built in the Pacific in favor of going West Coast & ATL to TPAC . The move to HND is a mistake despite the reasons stated here. I respect what has been said though.
more visceration will happen soon just watch.
 
ITB
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Re: WHAT MAKES SEA BETTER THAN NRT FOR DELTA

Wed May 10, 2017 11:49 pm

FSDan wrote:
Reasons why NRT is no longer an optimal Asia hub for DL:
1) While it is still very important, Japan isn't in the same place in the world economy that it was 20 years ago. China, South Korea, Taiwan, etc. have all emerged as economic powers, broadening the business market in East Asia significantly.
2) Aircraft range has improved, and smaller jets than the 747 are now able to cross the Pacific, opening up possibilities for nonstop routes that just didn't exist before. As new nonstops open up, it is no longer competitive to funnel your passengers XXX-SEA/LAX/MSP/DTW-NRT-YYY.
3) With HND opening up to daytime flights from the U.S., DL was significantly disadvantaged by not having a Japanese partner. UA and AA can utilize NH's and JL's hubs at HND to connect their passengers all over Japan and to important cities throughout Asia, in addition to linking the biggest O&D centers in the U.S. with the more convenient Tokyo airport. DL did what they could to get some slots, but without a partner at HND they will always have a token presence. At the same time, moving some flights over to HND further weakened their connecting power at NRT.


Yes, I tend to agree with this assessment. But I also believe NRT can continue to be an important cog in Delta's network. How? By continuing to use NRT as a hub to fly important routes to Tier 1 cities in Southeast Asia, and to other Tier 2 cities in the region, such as SGN, CGK, KUL, as well as interior cities of China. BKK and SIN, as well as TPE, are Tier 1 Asian cities, and anyone says otherwise doesn't know Asia. Delta needs to be in all three of these markets with their own meta and, realistically, the only way to do so if via NRT.

Each time a flight is trimmed from NRT, Delta's entire Asian network takes a hit. The trunk routes from ATL, DTW and MSP all suffer. The flying from these hubs to NRT now almost solely depend on traffic that is traveling to Japan and Japan alone. This is problematic because all three hubs are weak in terms of Asian O/D. ATL is not LAX, SFO, or NYT. Neither are DTW or MSP. All of these trunk flights to NRT depend on connecting traffic to fill the plane, which is, of course, less valuable than O/D. With fewer onward connections from NRT, these flights become harder to fill. As DL continues to more forward de-hubbing NRT, these important trunk routes might be endangered.

SEA is a great location for an Asian hub. The Sea-Tac region is growing, becoming more prosperous. The Asian community is substantial as well. SEA will allow DL to serve its premium customers who value a one-connection flight to the principle cities of Asia. But aside from the major cities, such PVG, PEK, TYO and HKG, it is more challenging to serve other Asian markets, particularly those in SE Asia, from SEA direct. If DL deems flights to SE Asia and other Tier 2 Asian cities elsewhere not worthwhile, that's fine. But the Asian market is rapidly growing, the people and cities becoming more prosperous. To simply not make the investment now in Asia may be a terrible mistake.

The recent JV and codeshare with KE is a big plus, as it gives the premium DL customer one-ticket access to almost all of the important cities in Asia. Nevertheless, because this arrangement primarily benefits the premium flyer, those who are more price sensitive will likely search out other options. This hurts in the long run because once customers have shifted allegiance it's difficult to pull them back. One might argue these customers are the "garbage fare" seekers, and to some extent, that's correct. They fill planes, however, and those garbage fares determine, in many instances, whether a route is ultimately profitable or not. NRT-MNL is a good example. Some say this flight is mostly full of tourist and VFR passengers or, to put it another way, the low-fare types. To be sure, to an extent this is true. The flight, however, has been flown for many, many years, so, clearly, a way has been found to make it work, even if it's been only marginally profitable at times.

SEA and NRT can work well in tandem to form a strong Asian network for Delta. SEA can be gateway for the premium flyer who values time and convenience over cost. NRT will allow DL to serve other cities in Asia not easily served via SEA. Together, SEA and NRT can create a very strong Asian network that will make Delta the premium US3 airline flying between the U.S. and Asia.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Wed May 10, 2017 11:57 pm

ILUVDC10S wrote:
johns624 wrote:
ILUVDC10S wrote:
In due time I forsee it coming down the pipeline and most of what I have forsaw has become reality .

Did you forsee the majority of trans-ocean flights being on ETOPS twins with a fantastic safety record?

When you travel by air its a game of chance . I just press my luck with my aircraft of choice.
However If it were me I would choose NRT over SEA Personally I do not do well on West Coast to Asia flights just like the BOS LHR flights are a haven for jet lag .


Do you ever at any time have anything positive to say? I sure don't recall every seeing it.

No-one mentioned it, but NW actually served KHH at one point too in addition to the other secondary cities like PUS.
 
ILUVDC10S
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Thu May 11, 2017 12:10 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
ILUVDC10S wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Did you forsee the majority of trans-ocean flights being on ETOPS twins with a fantastic safety record?

When you travel by air its a game of chance . I just press my luck with my aircraft of choice.
However If it were me I would choose NRT over SEA Personally I do not do well on West Coast to Asia flights just like the BOS LHR flights are a haven for jet lag .


Do you ever at any time have anything positive to say? I sure don't recall every seeing it.

No-one mentioned it, but NW actually served KHH at one point too in addition to the other secondary cities like PUS.

GUM & SPN too .
I did love the old 747's that NWA flew from HNL to NRT with the business class section sold as coach I really loved that !
Have not been to NRT in a while do they still have the Cashier collecting the 25 dollar departure fee when you leave NRT ?
 
WPvsMW
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Thu May 11, 2017 12:44 am

Anyone opining about DL metal continuing to fly beyond NRT should read Critical Flyer's interview with Ed Bastion (parts 1 and 2 of 3 are posted; part 3 planned for tomorrow). EB pulls no punches. The downgauging of DL at NRT is real and increasing, concurrently with the upgauging of DL at ICN's new "SkyTeam terminal" ... KE, DL, MU co-locating expressly stated ... CZ, CI weren't mentioned in the interview, but it appears it will be just that, a SkyTeam terminal. EB comments that the best margins for DL ex-NRT are the beach markets... but NRT-beach markets aren't banked with CONUS/NRT flights. So, the writing is on wall ... no more westbound ex-NRT on DL metal.

Also discussed was the exclusion of CN from the JV with KE... so expect more westbound ex-ICN on DL metal.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Thu May 11, 2017 12:54 am

TerminalD wrote:
I think they have realized internationally SEA is no better than NRT, which is why they are doing the JV with KE finally.

That's a bit of a stretch


IPFreely wrote:
Delta is not a big player in the Pacific anyway and the new JV with KE will make UA stronger and DL more of a virtual airline in the future,as far as trans-Pacific flying.

That, on the other hand, is a ridiculous stretch. :roll:


johns624 wrote:
ILUVDC10S wrote:
In due time I forsee it coming down the pipeline and most of what I have forsaw has become reality .

Did you forsee the majority of trans-ocean flights being on ETOPS twins with a fantastic safety record?

And by "fantastic" you mean flawless, as no pax has ever died as a result of an ETOPS operation, despite the span of 4 decades and billions of seat-miles flown in such operations.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
ITB
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Thu May 11, 2017 1:32 am

WPvsMW wrote:
Anyone opining about DL metal continuing to fly beyond NRT should read Critical Flyer's interview with Ed Bastion (parts 1 and 2 of 3 are posted; part 3 planned for tomorrow). EB pulls no punches. The downgauging of DL at NRT is real and increasing, concurrently with the upgauging of DL at ICN's new "SkyTeam terminal" ... KE, DL, MU co-locating expressly stated ... CZ, CI weren't mentioned in the interview, but it appears it will be just that, a SkyTeam terminal. EB comments that the best margins for DL ex-NRT are the beach markets... but NRT-beach markets aren't banked with CONUS/NRT flights. So, the writing is on wall ... no more westbound ex-NRT on DL metal.

I did read the Cranky Flier interview and found it informative. It confirms what is obvious, that DL will, in all likelihood, discontinue most if not all intra-asian flying from NRT in the not too distant future. Notable, as well, was that the NRT-beach market flights were the best performing, which was somewhat surprising.

The big question concerning the NRT draw down is whether, in the long term, this is the proper course of action. I know business is business, and I don't the numbers and the DL execs do, I just don't have a good feeling about this, particularly considering the history Delta inherited from Northwest in regards to Japan. Sadly, unless something changes, I foresee the possibility DL, aside from Tokyo, may be completely squeezed out of Japan in the upcoming years, and that's not a pretty picture. One also has to wonder how DL will expand in Asia without Japan. The KE JV is all very well and good, but if Delta struggles to match the fares of its competitors—and it may be a challenge—it may prove to be less worthwhile than initially thought.
Last edited by ITB on Thu May 11, 2017 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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maortega15
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Thu May 11, 2017 1:37 am

Does anyone know what will happen to NRT-MNL? Will they still plan to keep it or ax it eventually? They already axed NGO-MNL and JFK-NRT which MNL relied upon. Now, they're down to a single 767.

NW used to have a great following on flights to MNL. With DL, not so much.
 
Sightseer
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Re: What Makes SEA Better Than NRT For Delta

Thu May 11, 2017 1:48 am

maortega15 wrote:
Does anyone know what will happen to NRT-MNL? Will they still plan to keep it or ax it eventually? They already axed NGO-MNL and JFK-NRT which MNL relied upon. Now, they're down to a single 767.

NW used to have a great following on flights to MNL. With DL, not so much.


In my opinion, the best-case scenario for MNL is that it is again paired with DTW-NGO, ideally bringing that flight back to daily service. But I think the more likely outcome is that MNL is simply turned over to KE.

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