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KarelXWB
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Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 12:37 pm

DL will add 30 additional A321s to its fleet.

Source
http://news.delta.com/delta-expand-airb ... deliveries
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Polot
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 12:38 pm

And officially defers 10 A350s as rumored.
 
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 12:39 pm

NEO or CEO?
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 12:40 pm

anshabhi wrote:
NEO or CEO?


CEO
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 12:40 pm

Bye bye some 757s?
 
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tlecam
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 12:42 pm

Interesting news. They're going to have a lot of 321s flying around over the next 5 years.

I apologize for my ignorance, but are these 321 CEO or NEO?
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 12:42 pm

Why order CEOs now? Is it to get earlier delivery slots or because of the issues NEOs are having? I suppose they can always slap on NEOs once they work out the engine issues.
 
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 12:45 pm

BG777300ER wrote:
Why order CEOs now?


Why not? Fuel is cheap and will probably not reach 2010 levels anytime soon. And DL would get a nice deal for end of the line A321s.
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Polot
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 12:45 pm

BG777300ER wrote:
Why order CEOs now? Is it to get earlier delivery slots or because of the issues NEOs are having? I suppose they can always slap on NEOs once they work out the engine issues.

DL already has a large A321ceo backlog plus Airbus/CFM is no doubt offering great pricing on the ceo right now to help fill out production as PW/CFM continue to work through their engine issues.
 
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 12:47 pm

So 112 A321's and (130?) 739's. Wow.
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Richard28
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 12:52 pm

I guess the neo engine problems have created additional CEO slots that are being sold off at a low price by airbus to maintain production rates.
 
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 12:54 pm

Delta flies he A321 on shorter routes where there's less benefit for having the neo.
 
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 12:57 pm

BG777300ER wrote:
Bye bye some 757s?


Replacement for "older domestic-gauge aircraft" which does sound like 757s. It's too early to park 737-800s. Of course, the MD-80s are on the way out, so I suspect the A321 will be part of the overall shuffle.
 
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 12:58 pm

sxf24 wrote:
Delta flies he A321 on shorter routes where there's less benefit for having the neo.


That's true currently, though I expect that may change as they get more of them into the fleet (they don't have very many right now). Nonetheless, happy to see more 321s at DL!
 
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 12:58 pm

Does this mean they've seen MoM and don't care?
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sxf24
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 12:59 pm

ty97 wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
Delta flies he A321 on shorter routes where there's less benefit for having the neo.


That's true currently, though I expect that may change as they get more of them into the fleet (they don't have very many right now). Nonetheless, happy to see more 321s at DL!


I think Delta would need to order additional fuel tanks and higher weight/thrust to change the mission for the A321. Right now, it's a great airplane for the mission it is being used for.
 
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 1:02 pm

holzmann wrote:
Does this mean they've seen MoM and don't care?


No. It's just 30 aircraft flying domestic. It was an opportunistic order.
 
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 1:08 pm

BG777300ER wrote:
Bye bye some 757s?


I can't imagine they'd pump all that money into them just to turn around and park them again, especially since they pulled a bunch off the retirement list in the last few months. Lots of Mad Dogs leaving, though.
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 1:19 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
BG777300ER wrote:
Bye bye some 757s?


I can't imagine they'd pump all that money into them just to turn around and park them again, especially since they pulled a bunch off the retirement list in the last few months. Lots of Mad Dogs leaving, though.

Thats exactly what happened with the whales. One thing you can take to the bank; when the downturn comes, the 757s will be the first to go.
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MIflyer12
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 1:26 pm

holzmann wrote:
Does this mean they've seen MoM and don't care?


No. An opportunistic order as mentioned, and Delta has plenty of narrowbody aircraft more than 25 years old that are reasonably targets for short term replacement, even if seat count is not identical. It's not just MD-88s. Check a planespotters.net fleet list: DL is flying (and I'm not arguing they're unsafe or not cosmetically maintained) old MD-80s (all), as well as some A320s and some 757-200s. Even the MD90 subfleet has an average age of 20.3 years.
 
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 1:27 pm

I imagine some 57's get retired, perhaps more transcontinental routes get layflat seats and perhaps some are used for smaller gauge TATL flights?
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 1:31 pm

Presume this is more work for Mobile?
 
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 1:34 pm

CF-CPI wrote:
BG777300ER wrote:
Bye bye some 757s?


Replacement for "older domestic-gauge aircraft" which does sound like 757s. It's too early to park 737-800s. Of course, the MD-80s are on the way out, so I suspect the A321 will be part of the overall shuffle.

They are currently parking some clapped out 752s and are replacing them with ones they had parked earlier with only 80,000 hours. It's obviously an interim measure as the replacement frames will need to get parked in 5-6 years max. That's where the 321s come in.
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burnsie28
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 1:34 pm

DL previously stated the 321 would take over a lot of M88 flying. If that holds true, DL has 116 M88s and this puts the 321 at 112.
 
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 1:39 pm

tinpusher007 wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
BG777300ER wrote:
Bye bye some 757s?


I can't imagine they'd pump all that money into them just to turn around and park them again, especially since they pulled a bunch off the retirement list in the last few months. Lots of Mad Dogs leaving, though.

Thats exactly what happened with the whales. One thing you can take to the bank; when the downturn comes, the 757s will be the first to go.


If I were really good at predicting big fuel price movements or severe recessions I could be staggeringly rich (and flying private) but it's likely that most of Delta's 757-200s will just age out. On a fuel CASM basis - especially after the refit to 199 seats - they're actually pretty good - better than some newer yet smaller aircraft. This is an Alaska Airlines graphic from a few years ago - even before DL added more seats. DL can run connecting passengers on 757s through ATL and beat AA A319s thru CLT all day long.

Image
 
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 1:54 pm

CF-CPI wrote:
BG777300ER wrote:
Bye bye some 757s?


Replacement for "older domestic-gauge aircraft" which does sound like 757s. It's too early to park 737-800s. Of course, the MD-80s are on the way out, so I suspect the A321 will be part of the overall shuffle.


DL has been doing a combination of 757 replacement and increasing capacity, especially or particularly in ATL, with the 321 fleet. The use of the CEO engines, smaller fuel capacity and lack of ETOPS all indicate that DL views the 321 as a shorter stage length aircraft that will probably see most of its flying east of the rockies. Given that DL used the 757 for years on routes that didn't fully utilize the 757's capacities (tons sub-1000 mile flights to and from ATL and on routes between the northeast and Florida) its not far fetched to say this is a 757 replacement. (Going on a deep tangent, DL has a tradition of capacity based but not performance based aircraft utilization...see, e.g. heavy L10 use on BOS/LGA-FLA and ATL-FLA through the '90s)

As DL has fewer 757s but yet still has a significant need for a 175 to 200 seat plane that can fly over 2500 miles it makes sense to find a replacements for shorter missions and move the 50 or so 757s that remain into longer route missions.

This is also clearly going to replace some M88 and 320 capacity in ATL. DL has been moving more and more capacity through ATL (compared to the other main domestic network hubs of DTW/MSP/SLC) over the past five years as they draw down the RJ fleet and this 321 order will likely help boost that. It's hard to draw simple statements around ATL given its size but as a whole DL is running larger planes more often through ATL while using relatively smaller planes through DTW/MSP/SLC. So it plays a shell game of sorts in the replacement strategy returning aircraft while also slowing adding capacity to ATL. To illustrate, something like this will happen: a 321 will fly PHL-ATL that used to be a M90 while the M90 will replace the M88 on PHL-MSP and the M88 is retired.

By my experiences, which has been less than a dozen total on US, DL and EI, the A321 is a more comfortable aircraft as a passenger than the 739. Therefore its good news that DL is going this.
 
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 2:04 pm

Good news for Delta and Airbus.

With regards to the question of "which aircraft will the A320s replace?" - it probably won't be as simple as one-for-one replacement of any specific subfleet. There are, as others have noted, 116 MD-88s which Delta has previously announced will be retired. However, some of the former NW A320s are also getting a bit long in the tooth, and Delta has demonstrated a willingness to upgauge, rather than simply replace, older aircraft types. Take the mainline C-Series order for example, which will replace a good chunk of regional flying. So it is quite possible that older A320s will be replaced by new A321s, though this is a subfleet often overlooked when discussing replacement, because we don't usually think of A320s as being particularly "old".
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 2:13 pm

Delta is refurbishing an additional 21 757s, with most of them already gone through mods per the fleet refurbishment thread. Seventeen of these aircraft are 1990-1992 builds and four were built in 1993. The additional 30 A321s are being delivered in 2020-2021. I suspect that in addition to finishing off small motor A320s and the MD-88 line, these aircraft will replace the oldest 199 seat 757s. I'd be interesting to see how much of a discount Delta received for these aircraft as Delta recently exercised options for an additional 10 737-900ERs.
 
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 2:15 pm

Interesting....but I don't think the A321 is going to be a replacement to ALL 757's. I think it'll be AA's case, they'll still keep the 757 but retire older frames and keep post 2000 frames.
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Polot
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 2:19 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Interesting....but I don't think the A321 is going to be a replacement to ALL 757's. I think it'll be AA's case, they'll still keep the 757 but retire older frames and keep post 2000 frames.

Well no, it will be a mixture of A321s, 739s, and whatever Delta decides in regards to the MoM aircraft that Airbus and Boeing are floating around.
 
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 2:22 pm

Boeing files price dumping complaint in 3...2...1....

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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 2:25 pm

Polot wrote:
And officially defers 10 A350s as rumored.


Indeed, but some will be very disappointed it wasn't the cancellation they'd been hoping for.
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flymco753
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 2:26 pm

Polot wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Interesting....but I don't think the A321 is going to be a replacement to ALL 757's. I think it'll be AA's case, they'll still keep the 757 but retire older frames and keep post 2000 frames.

Well no, it will be a mixture of A321s, 739s, and whatever Delta decides in regards to the MoM aircraft that Airbus and Boeing are floating around.
So it's definite that the 757's will be done in the next 5 years? How about the 75Y's that are still fairly young?
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MIflyer12
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 2:34 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Interesting....but I don't think the A321 is going to be a replacement to ALL 757's.


Delta has more than 25 757-200s that entered service in January 2000 or later. That's a big enough fleet of no-so-old 757s that they're not going to be retired any time soon. Whether Boeing has a MOM in service soon enough to replace these is a different question.
 
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 2:39 pm

Pretty safe to assume the 56 757s delivered between 1995-2002, along with maybe the four 1993 build aircraft, will be sticking around until the middle of next decade to be replaced by the 737-10 MAX or A321 NEO. Should the 797 be launched, there is your 757-300 replacement. But that won't happen for a while. The 757-300s have a good 15 years left.
 
TheGeordielad
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 2:44 pm

Congrats to Delta and Airbus.
Will delta release another configuration to give more flexibility?
 
DeltaRules
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 2:51 pm

Keep in mind DL just recently bought the last few 757s off the line, which are 2004-build.
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 2:52 pm

Its not all 1 for 1 replacements or a clear-cut fleet picture on whats going to be coming and going:

MD88s gone
small motor A320s gone
a handful of 763ers starting to be retired

C-series
737-900ER
A321s

I also suspect by 2020, some of the MD-90s, and even some of the oldest CRJ-700 & 900s are going to start approaching the end of economic life.
 
DeSpringbokke
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 3:00 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Its not all 1 for 1 replacements or a clear-cut fleet picture on whats going to be coming and going:

MD88s gone
small motor A320s gone
a handful of 763ers starting to be retired

C-series
737-900ER
A321s

I also suspect by 2020, some of the MD-90s, and even some of the oldest CRJ-700 & 900s are going to start approaching the end of economic life.


Management has also stated more 50 seaters will be retired starting next year with the introduction of the CSeries. Less than 100 will remain by the end of 2019, with possibly more leaving in 2020-2021 when the final 35 CSeries on the order books are delivered. I suspect Delta will exercise the 50 CSeries options in the coming years.
 
ehaase
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 3:11 pm

I guess this means the rumor of an RFP later this summer for 75 more aircraft is without merit.
 
gsg013
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 3:16 pm

Very interesting. I used to be of the saying "If it's not boeing I'm not going" however my past few flights on DL A319 and A320's have made them some of my favorite planes in the sky on Domestic Routes (with the exception of the 757).

Have not flown the DL A321 yet but I am hopefully I will get on one soon going through LGA or JFK.
 
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 3:18 pm

DeSpringbokke wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Its not all 1 for 1 replacements or a clear-cut fleet picture on whats going to be coming and going:

MD88s gone
small motor A320s gone
a handful of 763ers starting to be retired

C-series
737-900ER
A321s

I also suspect by 2020, some of the MD-90s, and even some of the oldest CRJ-700 & 900s are going to start approaching the end of economic life.


Management has also stated more 50 seaters will be retired starting next year with the introduction of the CSeries. Less than 100 will remain by the end of 2019, with possibly more leaving in 2020-2021 when the final 35 CSeries on the order books are delivered. I suspect Delta will exercise the 50 CSeries options in the coming years.

75* firm orders for the CS100 are on the books. The total order is for 125 when the other 50 options are taken into account.
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keesje
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 3:20 pm

Richard28 wrote:
I guess the neo engine problems have created additional CEO slots that are being sold off at a low price by airbus to maintain production rates.


That's what I suspect..

WaywardMemphian wrote:
Boeing files price dumping complaint in 3...2...1....

I keed, I keed


I don't think so, there's no lack of demand & the savings of using those iso their 757s are clear for everyone. Delta is an opportunistic buyer. I do see those aircraft going TCON from SEA, JFK and ATL, that's where it's payload-range works best. Jetblue, AA, Alaska know.
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coronado
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 3:22 pm

Also perhaps overlooked is that as the first of the 25 A330-900's start arriving in 2 years, to start to replace 767-300ER. IMHO Delta is likely to adapt some of the 767-300ER over to use in ''domestic beach markets'' as a fully paid for, low utilization aircraft. at least for a few years, I am thinking of the MSP-TPA, MSP-MCO and MSP-RSW type routes. The 767-300ER are currently piling on a lot of hours but not a lot of cycles so I presume they will have some cycle life left after they get retired from international flying. Might as well try and get absolute maximum usage out of them.
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DeSpringbokke
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 3:26 pm

coronado wrote:
Also perhaps overlooked is that as the first of the 25 A330-900's start arriving in 2 years, to start to replace 767-300ER. IMHO Delta is likely to adapt some of the 767-300ER over to use in ''domestic beach markets'' as a fully paid for, low utilization aircraft. at least for a few years, I am thinking of the MSP-TPA, MSP-MCO and MSP-RSW type routes. The 767-300ER are currently piling on a lot of hours but not a lot of cycles so I presume they will have some cycle life left after they get retired from international flying. Might as well try and get absolute maximum usage out of them.


The oldest 767-300ERs are getting close to 30 years in age and three are being retired after this summer. Likely once these aircraft are retired, they are headed to the desert. The four ETOPS domestic 767s are being retired this year. Delta probably studied this option but reasoned with the age of the aircraft, it wasn't worth the ROI.
 
airbazar
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 3:27 pm

There's an airline based in the middle of the Atlantic that would take as many "newer" 752's as DL is willing to offer :)
 
VSMUT
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 3:39 pm

scbriml wrote:
Polot wrote:
And officially defers 10 A350s as rumored.


Indeed, but some will be very disappointed it wasn't the cancellation they'd been hoping for.


But hey, didn't prevent someone from already removing them from the wikipedia page as if they were cancelled ;)
 
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OA940
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 4:11 pm

Well someone has ambitious expansion plans... Almost like they're opening a new hub (hue)
A350/CSeries = bae
 
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flymco753
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 4:16 pm

OA940 wrote:
Well someone has ambitious expansion plans... Almost like they're opening a new hub (hue)
Maybe some strengthening at MCO, than again MCO as a focus city is a pipe dream.
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jbs2886
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 4:45 pm

ehaase wrote:
I guess this means the rumor of an RFP later this summer for 75 more aircraft is without merit.


No - the RFP is for new gen aircraft (MAX/neo) apparently. I don't think this impacts that at all.

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