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amdiesen
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 4:46 pm

VSMUT wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Polot wrote:
And officially defers 10 A350s as rumored.


Indeed, but some will be very disappointed it wasn't the cancellation they'd been hoping for.


But hey, didn't prevent someone from already removing them from the wikipedia page as if they were cancelled ;)



It would be interesting to know if the deposits for the 10 A350s were transferred to the 30 A321s... were there changes to the 'cancellation' language for the A350s. The 787 order appeared to remain on the books with a sense that the deposits had long been transferred.
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lavalampluva
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 4:51 pm

Does it seem that DL is changing their strategy from Asia/Europe to more of a focus on North America?
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 5:07 pm

I love Delta. And the A321 is a beautiful aircraft. But I HATE de/boarding it. Even worse than the 739. It still boggles my mind why they didn't engineer it to do middle door boarding.
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VSMUT
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 7:07 pm

amdiesen wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Indeed, but some will be very disappointed it wasn't the cancellation they'd been hoping for.


But hey, didn't prevent someone from already removing them from the wikipedia page as if they were cancelled ;)



It would be interesting to know if the deposits for the 10 A350s were transferred to the 30 A321s... were there changes to the 'cancellation' language for the A350s. The 787 order appeared to remain on the books with a sense that the deposits had long been transferred.


Maybe, but I think not. Unlike with the 787, Delta will actually operate a fleet of A350s, eventually. They only deferred 10 of them, not the remaining 15. With the 787 they deferred all of them.
 
airboeingbus
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 7:11 pm

SuseJ772 wrote:
I love Delta. And the A321 is a beautiful aircraft. But I HATE de/boarding it. Even worse than the 739. It still boggles my mind why they didn't engineer it to do middle door boarding.


The A321 can us door L2 (Middle Door) for boarding / deboarding. Not many airlines do it though to my knowledge When I flew LH a few years back I boarded through door L2.
 
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Polot
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 7:24 pm

airboeingbus wrote:
SuseJ772 wrote:
I love Delta. And the A321 is a beautiful aircraft. But I HATE de/boarding it. Even worse than the 739. It still boggles my mind why they didn't engineer it to do middle door boarding.


The A321 can us door L2 (Middle Door) for boarding / deboarding. Not many airlines do it though to my knowledge When I flew LH a few years back I boarded through door L2.

Yes, most airlines don't bother boarding with L2 (and thus don't configure the aircraft to make it viable) because it is close to the engine and they don't want to risk accidental damage from the airstairs/jetway. With Airbus's new A321 layout the L2 door will be going away though.
 
dampfnudel
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Thu May 11, 2017 7:40 pm

holzmann wrote:
Does this mean they've seen MoM and don't care?


They probably still care, but the MoM is years away and the 321 is available now to take care of their needs/requirements.
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DL_Mech
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 1:40 am

airbazar wrote:
There's an airline based in the middle of the Atlantic that would take as many "newer" 752's as DL is willing to offer :)


Icelandair wants Pratt 757s?
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.

Former AMT on A220,A310,A319/20/21,A330,A350,B707,B717,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,B777,DC-9,DC-10,L-1011,
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surfdog75
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 1:53 am

jbs2886 wrote:
ehaase wrote:
I guess this means the rumor of an RFP later this summer for 75 more aircraft is without merit.


No - the RFP is for new gen aircraft (MAX/neo) apparently. I don't think this impacts that at all.


Yep, no change to the RFP plan.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 7:31 am

DL_Mech wrote:
airbazar wrote:
There's an airline based in the middle of the Atlantic that would take as many "newer" 752's as DL is willing to offer :)


Icelandair wants Pratt 757s?


No
 
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TedToToe
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 8:27 am

cledaybuck wrote:
So 112 A321's and (130?) 739's. Wow.

Forgive my ignorance, but how much do the 321 and 739 missions differ in DL service?
 
77H
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 8:31 am

Polot wrote:
airboeingbus wrote:
SuseJ772 wrote:
I love Delta. And the A321 is a beautiful aircraft. But I HATE de/boarding it. Even worse than the 739. It still boggles my mind why they didn't engineer it to do middle door boarding.


The A321 can us door L2 (Middle Door) for boarding / deboarding. Not many airlines do it though to my knowledge When I flew LH a few years back I boarded through door L2.

Yes, most airlines don't bother boarding with L2 (and thus don't configure the aircraft to make it viable) because it is close to the engine and they don't want to risk accidental damage from the airstairs/jetway. With Airbus's new A321 layout the L2 door will be going away though.


I thought that was just one variant/option ? Wasn't VX's 321N delivered with L2/R2 ?

77H
 
CRJ900
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 9:11 am

77H wrote:
Polot wrote:
airboeingbus wrote:

The A321 can us door L2 (Middle Door) for boarding / deboarding. Not many airlines do it though to my knowledge When I flew LH a few years back I boarded through door L2.

Yes, most airlines don't bother boarding with L2 (and thus don't configure the aircraft to make it viable) because it is close to the engine and they don't want to risk accidental damage from the airstairs/jetway. With Airbus's new A321 layout the L2 door will be going away though.


I thought that was just one variant/option ? Wasn't VX's 321N delivered with L2/R2 ?

77H


You're right, it is an option for airlines wanting 231-240 seats, like Wizz. The normal config can "only" seat 230.
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
rbavfan
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 9:20 am

DeSpringbokke wrote:
Delta is refurbishing an additional 21 757s, with most of them already gone through mods per the fleet refurbishment thread. Seventeen of these aircraft are 1990-1992 builds and four were built in 1993. The additional 30 A321s are being delivered in 2020-2021. I suspect that in addition to finishing off small motor A320s and the MD-88 line, these aircraft will replace the oldest 199 seat 757s. I'd be interesting to see how much of a discount Delta received for these aircraft as Delta recently exercised options for an additional 10 737-900ERs.



Actually Boeing forced the 10 additional 737-900's via a contract agreement. Delta did not have a choice not to take them.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 9:46 am

airboeingbus wrote:
SuseJ772 wrote:
I love Delta. And the A321 is a beautiful aircraft. But I HATE de/boarding it. Even worse than the 739. It still boggles my mind why they didn't engineer it to do middle door boarding.


The A321 can us door L2 (Middle Door) for boarding / deboarding. Not many airlines do it though to my knowledge When I flew LH a few years back I boarded through door L2.


If you do not use well trained personnel it would seem the low cost operators for the jetways don't pay enough attention to detail. They keep running the bridges into the engine intake or the wing.
 
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Polot
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 10:43 am

CRJ900 wrote:
77H wrote:
Polot wrote:
Yes, most airlines don't bother boarding with L2 (and thus don't configure the aircraft to make it viable) because it is close to the engine and they don't want to risk accidental damage from the airstairs/jetway. With Airbus's new A321 layout the L2 door will be going away though.


I thought that was just one variant/option ? Wasn't VX's 321N delivered with L2/R2 ?

77H


You're right, it is an option for airlines wanting 231-240 seats, like Wizz. The normal config can "only" seat 230.

It is an option right now, but Airbus has indicated they want to eventually make it the new standard (aka eventually make current layout the option, then phase it out). The new layout is standard on A321LR and is lighter than the current layout (also greater production commonality with the A320).
 
WIederling
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 11:22 am

Richard28 wrote:
I guess the neo engine problems have created additional CEO slots that are being sold off at a low price by airbus to maintain production rates.


Afair : Airbus had quite an overhang of CEO orders.
Limit conversions is the way to go.
( and maybe delay production increases slightly. Last year production rate has gone up despite the NEO issues. )
Murphy is an optimist
 
jbmitt
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 11:30 am

rbavfan wrote:
DeSpringbokke wrote:
Delta is refurbishing an additional 21 757s, with most of them already gone through mods per the fleet refurbishment thread. Seventeen of these aircraft are 1990-1992 builds and four were built in 1993. The additional 30 A321s are being delivered in 2020-2021. I suspect that in addition to finishing off small motor A320s and the MD-88 line, these aircraft will replace the oldest 199 seat 757s. I'd be interesting to see how much of a discount Delta received for these aircraft as Delta recently exercised options for an additional 10 737-900ERs.



Actually Boeing forced the 10 additional 737-900's via a contract agreement. Delta did not have a choice not to take them.


Technically Delta probably did have a choice because they agreed to whatever contract that allowed Boeing to have a put option. Delta would have agreed to the possibility of it at some point, Boeing exercised the option.
 
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keesje
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 11:38 am

coronado wrote:
Also perhaps overlooked is that as the first of the 25 A330-900's start arriving in 2 years, to start to replace 767-300ER. IMHO Delta is likely to adapt some of the 767-300ER over to use in ''domestic beach markets'' as a fully paid for, low utilization aircraft. at least for a few years, I am thinking of the MSP-TPA, MSP-MCO and MSP-RSW type routes. The 767-300ER are currently piling on a lot of hours but not a lot of cycles so I presume they will have some cycle life left after they get retired from international flying. Might as well try and get absolute maximum usage out of them.


2 years seems long, Delta's second A350 is catching sun on the platform.

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N717TW
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 11:56 am

dampfnudel wrote:
holzmann wrote:
Does this mean they've seen MoM and don't care?


They probably still care, but the MoM is years away and the 321 is available now to take care of their needs/requirements.


The MOM, based on all press accounts, is a different jet for DL than the 321. Its a 767 and long-haul 757 replacement. The A321 is a short/medium-haul domestic aircraft for DL. DL's A321s don't include the additional fuel tanks, aren't ETOPS and have a fairly dense seating plan; all of which mean they don't have the range to make the longer missions that other airlines (i.e. AA) do. None of that will stop DL from ordering NEO versions or the 321LR. Any future RFP on the 767/75S/75H replacement will probably look at the various options DL has to them. Would a Boeing MoM option be superior to a 321LR + 330 option? We don't really know because we don't really know what a future MoM/797 will actually do nor do we know how the two manufacturers are willing to price/structure deals to win a DL contract.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 12:20 pm

TedToToe wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
So 112 A321's and (130?) 739's. Wow.

Forgive my ignorance, but how much do the 321 and 739 missions differ in DL service?


Thus far, DL has generally used 739s on longer routes while keeping the A321s ALT-based with shorter routes. You can find exceptions to that without looking too hard. If any of the forum's data gurus cares to look at Monday's schedule and give avg and median route length for 739 and 321, it would be appreciated.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 1:02 pm

DeSpringbokke wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Its not all 1 for 1 replacements or a clear-cut fleet picture on whats going to be coming and going:

MD88s gone
small motor A320s gone
a handful of 763ers starting to be retired

C-series
737-900ER
A321s

I also suspect by 2020, some of the MD-90s, and even some of the oldest CRJ-700 & 900s are going to start approaching the end of economic life.


Management has also stated more 50 seaters will be retired starting next year with the introduction of the CSeries. Less than 100 will remain by the end of 2019, with possibly more leaving in 2020-2021 when the final 35 CSeries on the order books are delivered. I suspect Delta will exercise the 50 CSeries options in the coming years.


Yet Ed Bastian said roughly a month ago on an internal Q&A that there was no plan to reduce the 50 seat fleet. I don't think anyone knows whats going to happen there, I just don't see Delta walking away from the maximum number of RJ's they can have, when fuel is as cheap as it is. Additionally, I don't think they'd be spending the money to move 200's from ASA to the other 2 CR2 carriers at this point if they were going away quickly.
Last edited by DiamondFlyer on Fri May 12, 2017 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 1:06 pm

739ER has replaced a lot of what used to be flown by the domestic 757s that have been retired over the past 2-3 years on the (East-West routes). They've also replaced/up-gauged what was being flown with MD90, A320, 738s which have been redeployed elsewhere in the network.

A321s are primarily flown out of ATL for the time being and replaced a lot of the shorter domestic 757 flying. (North-South routes)


Over the past 3 years, DL has really drawn-down the stage length of the MD88 fleet, which has been backfilled by other aircraft types.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 1:11 pm

The 50-seat RJ fleet plan is kind of status-quo for the time being now that some of the regional providers have stabilized and are able to get pilots for the time being. In seems that in the short-term as long as they can continue to fly 50-seaters with economic service-life left they will use them. Beyond 2020, when every 50 seater out there is approaching 15-20+ years of service the cost of engine and airframe overhauls will render them uneconomical. However, the utilization (cycles and hours) per frame of the 50 seaters is way down from what it 5 years ago, and they've cycled some frames out of the desert as others have hit overhaul intervals.

Eventually this is going to start to catch-up to the CR7s which is an aircraft I've never really understood. I don't know how that airplane makes any economic sense which it has operating costs near the CRJ-900, carries less passengers, and is an inferior on-board product to the E170/E170 and even the CR9s for that matter.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 1:18 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The 50-seat RJ fleet plan is kind of status-quo for the time being now that some of the regional providers have stabilized and are able to get pilots for the time being. In seems that in the short-term as long as they can continue to fly 50-seaters with economic service-life left they will use them. Beyond 2020, when every 50 seater out there is approaching 15-20+ years of service the cost of engine and airframe overhauls will render them uneconomical. However, the utilization (cycles and hours) per frame of the 50 seaters is way down from what it 5 years ago, and they've cycled some frames out of the desert as others have hit overhaul intervals.

Eventually this is going to start to catch-up to the CR7s which is an aircraft I've never really understood. I don't know how that airplane makes any economic sense which it has operating costs near the CRJ-900, carries less passengers, and is an inferior on-board product to the E170/E170 and even the CR9s for that matter.


Delta has no problem getting the RJ's staffed at OO and 9E. OO is able to staff via their diversity in flying and bases and 9E via pay and limited career progression. I think going forward you'll see a total of 3 regional carriers in DCI, OO, 9E and YX.

The operating costs of a CRJ7 is significantly lower than a 170. Add to that the limitation on large RJs preventing the whole fleet from being 76 seats, and the CR7 starts to make sense. Something is going to have to replace the 700, could it be new 700's or something else, who knows.
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commavia
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 1:19 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Eventually this is going to start to catch-up to the CR7s which is an aircraft I've never really understood. I don't know how that airplane makes any economic sense which it has operating costs near the CRJ-900, carries less passengers, and is an inferior on-board product to the E170/E170 and even the CR9s for that matter.


The niche the CR7 has carved out for itself - somewhat inadvertently - is in markets where the higher seat costs relative to the CR9 and E75 are offset by the higher yields that come from capacity discipline. Put differently - there are some markets that can consistently support economical yields at ~65 seats/departure but may not be able to consistently support those same yields at ~75 seats/departure. Now sure, as said, this niche is somewhat inadvertent - as most of the CR7s flying in the U.S. today date to a moment when the CR7 was among the only viable "large" (and later 2-class) RJ options available to U.S. network carriers. That moment obviously didn't last long, in the scheme of things. Once given the opportunity - based on OEM/technical availability and mainline scope clauses - to upgauge further, all three of today's U.S. network carriers took it. But now they're left with fleets of CR7s that, while carrying higher unit costs than CR9s and E75s, still probably have lower unit costs than 50-seat jets. And thus they're deploying them as optimally as possible - in places where 2-class makes sense, but 75 seats may not.
 
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keesje
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 3:08 pm

Just took a look. In the US most A321s are flown Eastcoast & Transcon (CA). Probably what DL will do too.

https://nl.flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/A321
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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keesje
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 3:12 pm

keesje wrote:
Just took a look. In the US most A321s are flown Eastcoast & Transcon (CA). Probably what DL will do too.

https://nl.flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/A321


Interestingly there are just 6 757 in Asia and lots of them over the Atlantic (UA, DL, Iceland)

https://nl.flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/B752
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Polot
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 3:15 pm

keesje wrote:
Just took a look. In the US most A321s are flown Eastcoast & Transcon (CA). Probably what DL will do too.

https://nl.flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/A321

That is what basically every narrowbody profile in the US looks like right now. You have to keep in mind things like where the majority of the flights are in the US and time of day when you are looking at whats in the air right now (e.g., it is only 8:15 am right now on the West Coast, of course most A321s in the air are on the East coast or transcons)
 
upsmd11
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 3:18 pm

With the MD-88 fleet being retired it will be interesting to see what cities like SDF (my home) get for service. We get mostly MD-88 from ATL today and sometimes 737-700, 737-800, MD-90, A320 and A319. We've never seen the 752 or A321 in regular service may just be too big.

Fun days ahead.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Fri May 12, 2017 3:29 pm

A lot of the MD88 stuff is a likely candidate to transition to MD90 or C-Series as more 739ER and A321s are delivered, pulling MD90s off the longer stuff like MSP-SJC, PHX, LAS, SLC; DTW-Florida, DEN, etc. ATL-DEN, etc.
 
Beatyair
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Sat May 13, 2017 4:16 am

Does anyone know if these additional A321's are the lr's? Or if Delta has rights to change some to lr's?

All 757 to be retired by 2021.

Boeing is way to late for the MoM. Airlines need them now and the A321 is there.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Sat May 13, 2017 4:21 am

Beatyair wrote:
Does anyone know if these additional A321's are the lr's? Or if Delta has rights to change some to lr's?

All 757 to be retired by 2021.

Boeing is way to late for the MoM. Airlines need them now and the A321 is there.


They A321ceos.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Sat May 13, 2017 4:49 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Beyond 2020, when every 50 seater out there is approaching 15-20+ years of service the cost of engine and airframe overhauls will render them uneconomical. However, the utilization (cycles and hours) per frame of the 50 seaters is way down from what it 5 years ago, and they've cycled some frames out of the desert as others have hit overhaul intervals.

Eventually this is going to start to catch-up to the CR7s which is an aircraft I've never really understood. I don't know how that airplane makes any economic sense which it has operating costs near the CRJ-900, carries less passengers, and is an inferior on-board product to the E170/E170 and even the CR9s for that matter.


How will the retirement of the CR2 aircraft affect all the small markets to which DL flies across the Southeast and the Mountain West? Are there any better jets with similar capacity that are more efficient? There seems to be a lack of new economical jet models with fewer than 70 seats coming out of Canadair and Embraer. What will markets like CSG and FSM have flying to them once the 50-seater goes away? DL doesn't have enough CR7 aircraft to provide service to all those small markets, and most of them don't even warrant a CR7 to begin with. Something will have to give, and I'm afraid there will be some outstation closures.
 
777Mech
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Sat May 13, 2017 6:04 am

BG777300ER wrote:
Bye bye some 757s?


Bye bye some MD-90s.
 
jfern022
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Sat May 13, 2017 7:23 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The 50-seat RJ fleet plan is kind of status-quo for the time being now that some of the regional providers have stabilized and are able to get pilots for the time being. In seems that in the short-term as long as they can continue to fly 50-seaters with economic service-life left they will use them. Beyond 2020, when every 50 seater out there is approaching 15-20+ years of service the cost of engine and airframe overhauls will render them uneconomical. However, the utilization (cycles and hours) per frame of the 50 seaters is way down from what it 5 years ago, and they've cycled some frames out of the desert as others have hit overhaul intervals.

Eventually this is going to start to catch-up to the CR7s which is an aircraft I've never really understood. I don't know how that airplane makes any economic sense which it has operating costs near the CRJ-900, carries less passengers, and is an inferior on-board product to the E170/E170 and even the CR9s for that matter.


Delta has no problem getting the RJ's staffed at OO and 9E. OO is able to staff via their diversity in flying and bases and 9E via pay and limited career progression. I think going forward you'll see a total of 3 regional carriers in DCI, OO, 9E and YX.

The operating costs of a CRJ7 is significantly lower than a 170. Add to that the limitation on large RJs preventing the whole fleet from being 76 seats, and the CR7 starts to make sense. Something is going to have to replace the 700, could it be new 700's or something else, who knows.


You think it will be OO/EV or just OO?
 
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OA940
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Sat May 13, 2017 8:31 am

flymco753 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Well someone has ambitious expansion plans... Almost like they're opening a new hub (hue)
Maybe some strengthening at MCO, than again MCO as a focus city is a pipe dream.


It kinda is...
A350/CSeries = bae
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Sat May 13, 2017 12:41 pm

Beatyair wrote:
All 757 to be retired by 2021.


Is that your forecast, or are you quoting a source?

DL has confirmed it wants all of the MD-88s gone in 2020.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Sat May 13, 2017 12:46 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Beatyair wrote:
All 757 to be retired by 2021.


Is that your forecast, or are you quoting a source?

DL has confirmed it wants all of the MD-88s gone in 2020.


He just asked if any A321ceos will be LRs, so I doubt he knows.
 
jb1087xna
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Sat May 13, 2017 1:50 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Beyond 2020, when every 50 seater out there is approaching 15-20+ years of service the cost of engine and airframe overhauls will render them uneconomical. However, the utilization (cycles and hours) per frame of the 50 seaters is way down from what it 5 years ago, and they've cycled some frames out of the desert as others have hit overhaul intervals.

Eventually this is going to start to catch-up to the CR7s which is an aircraft I've never really understood. I don't know how that airplane makes any economic sense which it has operating costs near the CRJ-900, carries less passengers, and is an inferior on-board product to the E170/E170 and even the CR9s for that matter.


How will the retirement of the CR2 aircraft affect all the small markets to which DL flies across the Southeast and the Mountain West? Are there any better jets with similar capacity that are more efficient? There seems to be a lack of new economical jet models with fewer than 70 seats coming out of Canadair and Embraer. What will markets like CSG and FSM have flying to them once the 50-seater goes away? DL doesn't have enough CR7 aircraft to provide service to all those small markets, and most of them don't even warrant a CR7 to begin with. Something will have to give, and I'm afraid there will be some outstation closures.


I don't know how they're managing it, but FSM is moving to all CR7 starting in late August. Still maintaining 2 RT's on most days of the week. FSM has seen CR9s fairly often on the same day that the other flight is a CR2 in the last year or so, so maybe the loads are there.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3482
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Sat May 13, 2017 2:52 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Beyond 2020, when every 50 seater out there is approaching 15-20+ years of service the cost of engine and airframe overhauls will render them uneconomical. However, the utilization (cycles and hours) per frame of the 50 seaters is way down from what it 5 years ago, and they've cycled some frames out of the desert as others have hit overhaul intervals.

Eventually this is going to start to catch-up to the CR7s which is an aircraft I've never really understood. I don't know how that airplane makes any economic sense which it has operating costs near the CRJ-900, carries less passengers, and is an inferior on-board product to the E170/E170 and even the CR9s for that matter.


How will the retirement of the CR2 aircraft affect all the small markets to which DL flies across the Southeast and the Mountain West? Are there any better jets with similar capacity that are more efficient? There seems to be a lack of new economical jet models with fewer than 70 seats coming out of Canadair and Embraer. What will markets like CSG and FSM have flying to them once the 50-seater goes away? DL doesn't have enough CR7 aircraft to provide service to all those small markets, and most of them don't even warrant a CR7 to begin with. Something will have to give, and I'm afraid there will be some outstation closures.


The long and short of it is, barring some economic collapse, Delta has 5-8 years to make a decision before the 200's really get to the point of being in the time frame to replace them. A lot can happen in that time frame, who knows what ends up happening with it.
From my cold, dead hands
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Sat May 13, 2017 2:54 pm

jfern022 wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The 50-seat RJ fleet plan is kind of status-quo for the time being now that some of the regional providers have stabilized and are able to get pilots for the time being. In seems that in the short-term as long as they can continue to fly 50-seaters with economic service-life left they will use them. Beyond 2020, when every 50 seater out there is approaching 15-20+ years of service the cost of engine and airframe overhauls will render them uneconomical. However, the utilization (cycles and hours) per frame of the 50 seaters is way down from what it 5 years ago, and they've cycled some frames out of the desert as others have hit overhaul intervals.

Eventually this is going to start to catch-up to the CR7s which is an aircraft I've never really understood. I don't know how that airplane makes any economic sense which it has operating costs near the CRJ-900, carries less passengers, and is an inferior on-board product to the E170/E170 and even the CR9s for that matter.


Delta has no problem getting the RJ's staffed at OO and 9E. OO is able to staff via their diversity in flying and bases and 9E via pay and limited career progression. I think going forward you'll see a total of 3 regional carriers in DCI, OO, 9E and YX.

The operating costs of a CRJ7 is significantly lower than a 170. Add to that the limitation on large RJs preventing the whole fleet from being 76 seats, and the CR7 starts to make sense. Something is going to have to replace the 700, could it be new 700's or something else, who knows.


You think it will be OO/EV or just OO?


Just OO. The mormon minders of OO have no use for EV and their organized labor, which is a shame. Look how quickly EV is losing their CR2 flying, less than a year from announcement to gone, for a fleet of 40+ airplanes. It wouldn't surprise me to see the DCI EV flying totally gone by 2019 sometime.
From my cold, dead hands
 
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BN727227Ultra
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Sat May 13, 2017 4:33 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
739ER has replaced a lot of what used to be flown by the domestic 757s that have been retired over the past 2-3 years on the (East-West routes). They've also replaced/up-gauged what was being flown with MD90, A320, 738s which have been redeployed elsewhere in the network.

A321s are primarily flown out of ATL for the time being and replaced a lot of the shorter domestic 757 flying. (North-South routes)


Over the past 3 years, DL has really drawn-down the stage length of the MD88 fleet, which has been backfilled by other aircraft types.


I flew a 752 MSP-SEA this winter and I wondered to myself what was the reason for that aircraft on that route. I suppose it might due to maint repositioning, but with all those 738s it's almost like DL has to fly the 752s somewhere...
 
n7371f
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Sat May 13, 2017 9:50 pm

BG777300ER wrote:
Bye bye some 757s?


Nope.

Advancing MD88 retirements.

In fact the 757 keeps getting additional lives. Future schedules for Hawaii are going back to all 757's with the 739 being pulled, this is per talk from Flight Ops.

And there's still talk that a few more 757's mothballed in Marana may come back...
 
DeltaRules
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Sun May 14, 2017 2:05 am

n7371f wrote:
BG777300ER wrote:
Bye bye some 757s?


Nope.

Advancing MD88 retirements.

In fact the 757 keeps getting additional lives. Future schedules for Hawaii are going back to all 757's with the 739 being pulled, this is per talk from Flight Ops.

And there's still talk that a few more 757's mothballed in Marana may come back...


The "return" of the 757 has been fascinating. At one point, it was 684 and up sticking around, then 670-683 (except 677) in addition, then they added a few more out of the 65X-66X range on top of THAT. I will not complain one bit.

How many more are they looking at now?
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
SUNCTRY738
Posts: 145
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Sun May 14, 2017 8:12 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
n7371f wrote:
BG777300ER wrote:
Bye bye some 757s?


Nope.

Advancing MD88 retirements.

In fact the 757 keeps getting additional lives. Future schedules for Hawaii are going back to all 757's with the 739 being pulled, this is per talk from Flight Ops.

And there's still talk that a few more 757's mothballed in Marana may come back...


The "return" of the 757 has been fascinating. At one point, it was 684 and up sticking around, then 670-683 (except 677) in addition, then they added a few more out of the 65X-66X range on top of THAT. I will not complain one bit.

How many more are they looking at now?


I agree, it is amazing to see the 757 being brought back and being held onto. Is it a combination of low fuels cost and no major maintenance updates like the 744's center fuel tank issue?
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Sun May 14, 2017 11:47 pm

No, the 757 needs the NGS mod, just like the 744.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.

Former AMT on A220,A310,A319/20/21,A330,A350,B707,B717,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,B777,DC-9,DC-10,L-1011,
MD-80/90,MD-11
 
dc10lover
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Mon May 15, 2017 4:29 am

Delta in Pasco, Washington: (regarding the crj200's)

They fly crj700's to Seattle. First flight to Salt Lake City is an A319. The other 2 flights they use the crj200's. And 1 flight to MSP using a crj900.

When the crj200's are gone, no big deal. Keep the morning flight to Salt Lake City and possibly increase flights to Seattle or use slightly larger aircraft like the 76 E175.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
gsg013
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Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Mon May 15, 2017 1:11 pm

IMHO the reason the 757 continues to being brought back is due to the modifications. 5 years ago most 757-200's in DL's fleet were in the 165-176 seat range. Now with the 199 pax modification and the new cabin (along with sustained low fuel prices) the 757-200 with 199 pax is quite an economical bird.

On another note for a route that needs ~200 pax with relatively longer legs there is not an alternative they could use a domestic 767-300 however the operating costs of widebody vs a 757 are much higher.
 
SUNCTRY738
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 3:39 am

Re: Delta Air Lines orders 30 additional A321s

Mon May 15, 2017 1:36 pm

gsg013 wrote:
IMHO the reason the 757 continues to being brought back is due to the modifications. 5 years ago most 757-200's in DL's fleet were in the 165-176 seat range. Now with the 199 pax modification and the new cabin (along with sustained low fuel prices) the 757-200 with 199 pax is quite an economical bird.

On another note for a route that needs ~200 pax with relatively longer legs there is not an alternative they could use a domestic 767-300 however the operating costs of widebody vs a 757 are much higher.


Helpful insight, thank you for it!

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