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sixtyseven
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WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 10:29 am

Congrats to the pilots at WestJet.

Enjoy your weekend Saretsky.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/business/w ... -1.3411389
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ACDC8
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 10:48 am

Congrats to the pilots. It was only a matter of time.
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longhauler
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 1:05 pm

This is very good news for Westjet's pilots. And ... the Westjet fanboys on here may nor realize it, but it is good for Westjet as well.

sixtyseven wrote:
Enjoy your weekend Saretsky.


This made me chuckle. More and more, Saretsky is making Westjet into Canadian Airlines. I just hope the outcome is better this time than when he was running Canadian the last time.
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dr1980
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 1:19 pm

longhauler wrote:
And ... the Westjet fanboys on here may nor realize it, but it is good for Westjet as well.


Could you elaborate on that?
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BillyD
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 4:13 pm

Unions were badly needed back in the '30's and '40's when there weren't any labour laws. In today's society, unions do nothing but increase costs. In Canada, socialism is dying. Socialist governments do nothing but suck on union teets, causing increased costs and deficits.

I love Westjet! Unfortunately unionization is BAD for them. Just look at what the markets think of unions, their shares dropped significantly. Generally it's bad for business and for the flying customers.
 
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longhauler
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 4:17 pm

dr1980 wrote:
Could you elaborate on that?

Being a part of a large international union affords a lot of advantages to both the pilots and the airline. Simply having outside input and advice on things like safety, procedures and international law will help them as they expand overseas. Say for example, Westjet starts flying from YYC to PEK ... one could attack it as a closed shop, or garner information from the hundreds of airlines that fly the Pacific daily.

IFALPA, of which by extension they will be a part, will give great advice on any of these new forays.

ALPA has the best aviation lawyers on the earth, the best accident investigators, the best aviation accountants, etc. Hopefully, they will never need them, but, if they do, it's a handy tool to have in one's back pocket.

A few further examples ....

Last year, Gregg Saretsky stated publicly that anyone that is not a team player at Westjet, will be made to feel so uncomfortable that they will quit. Not only is this illegal by Canadian Labour Law, but it controvenes workplace harrassment laws. I wonder if he would have been so glib if he were facing down the barrel of ALPA?

Also, look at the incident they had at St. Marten. Fire that CVR, FDR and FDA chip down to ALPA, and not only would they have a "reason" within days, but also great advice on how not to have the same thing happen again.

If I were Saretsky, instead of seeing this as a Management vs Worker ploy, he should welcome (at least publicly) the wealth of knowledge to which they now have access!
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longhauler
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 4:29 pm

BillyD wrote:
Unions were badly needed back in the '30's and '40's when there weren't any labour laws. In today's society, unions do nothing but increase costs. In Canada, socialism is dying. Socialist governments do nothing but suck on union teets, causing increased costs and deficits.

I love Westjet! Unfortunately unionization is BAD for them. Just look at what the markets think of unions, their shares dropped significantly. Generally it's bad for business and for the flying customers.

You will notice in my description of ALPA, I didn't mention negotiations.

Why? Because in Canada, airlines are placed under 'essential service' status and most job actions, up to and including strikes would not be allowed. With regard to "job action" though, the only thing a union would do would be to enforce an already existing contract. Make sure that both the airline and the pilots live up to their respective agreements. I don't see that as a bad thing, on both sides of the fence.

That notwithstanding though, Westjet already has an association that performs that function. That will not change with ALPA, they will just have a bigger toolbox.

While most uninformed about unions think it is all about strike action and "holding the company hostage", as you state, for most functions labour law already gives that protection. But ... how about aviation medical and health, fatigue management, safety monitoring, finance management, etc ... all are functions of most unions. Only a very very small part of a union's purpose is renegotiating a contract every what ... four years?
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Skywatcher
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 5:23 pm

I can never get a handle on how pilots, some of whom earn north of 200k per year for flying maybe 80 hours per month, are not "management". Don't they manage all the staff on every flight they work? I suspect that the WestJet pilots will earn more and work less after this-just like every other union member. Who will pay for it? Me and all the other sucker customers who can't join an exclusive club like ALPA ourselves.
 
Varsity1
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 5:37 pm

BillyD wrote:
Unions were badly needed back in the '30's and '40's when there weren't any labour laws. In today's society, unions do nothing but increase costs. In Canada, socialism is dying. Socialist governments do nothing but suck on union teets, causing increased costs and deficits.

I love Westjet! Unfortunately unionization is BAD for them. Just look at what the markets think of unions, their shares dropped significantly. Generally it's bad for business and for the flying customers.


Unions are the only reason we have fatigue rules.
 
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767333ER
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 5:48 pm

longhauler wrote:
This is very good news for Westjet's pilots. And ... the Westjet fanboys on here may nor realize it, but it is good for Westjet as well.

sixtyseven wrote:
Enjoy your weekend Saretsky.


This made me chuckle. More and more, Saretsky is making Westjet into Canadian Airlines. I just hope the outcome is better this time than when he was running Canadian the last time.

At least he's not turning it into Alsaka from back when he worked there, that would be a scary thought. I have a feeling though he won't be around much longer as he said he was going down fighting this, I could be wrong though.
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burnsie28
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 5:54 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
I can never get a handle on how pilots, some of whom earn north of 200k per year for flying maybe 80 hours per month, are not "management". Don't they manage all the staff on every flight they work? I suspect that the WestJet pilots will earn more and work less after this-just like every other union member. Who will pay for it? Me and all the other sucker customers who can't join an exclusive club like ALPA ourselves.


I know plenty of pilots that work more than 80 hours a month as ALPA members. On the flip side in the US (FAA) and in Canada (TC) there are rules about how many hours in a month/year pilots can fly.
 
krisyyz
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 6:29 pm

BillyD wrote:
Unions were badly needed back in the '30's and '40's when there weren't any labour laws. In today's society, unions do nothing but increase costs. In Canada, socialism is dying. Socialist governments do nothing but suck on union teets, causing increased costs and deficits.

I love Westjet! Unfortunately unionization is BAD for them. Just look at what the markets think of unions, their shares dropped significantly. Generally it's bad for business and for the flying customers.


Full disclosure, I work in the labour movement. Do you think those labour laws aren't at risk? Look at our neighbours to the south, with one strike of a pen, Governors across the US have undone decades of progress on labour standards and health and safety laws. Unions are a counterbalance, an insurance policy, for workers. Without that counterbalance, it's a race to the bottom. Not to mention what unions have fought for and won, like maternity leave, health and safety laws and employment standards have benefited everyone, unionized or not. The labour movement has much to improve on, so do corporations, governments etc. And I personally disagree, look at what happened in BC, left-leaning ideology is not dying.

For WS pilots, being unionized will give them a real voice, and a legal process to air their grievances and bargain collectively.

KrisYYZ
 
ACATROYAL
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 6:45 pm

Well getting a union means the end of WestJet as we know it. Unions destroy everything they touch. Poor Westjet it was a good run...
 
Whiteguy
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 7:30 pm

ACATROYAL wrote:
Well getting a union means the end of WestJet as we know it. Unions destroy everything they touch. Poor Westjet it was a good run...


No it doesn't.....
 
SooLineRob
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 7:31 pm

ACATROYAL wrote:
Well getting a union means the end of WestJet as we know it. Unions destroy everything they touch. Poor Westjet it was a good run...


The simple fact "union haters" forget is the only reason a workforce becomes unionized is the employer, either in the past or present, was or is unreasonable in their demands of their workforce. If employers were reasonable, unions wouldn't exist. Plain and simple.

I view the unionization of a workforce nowadays as a sign of deeper problems within a company.

Congratulations, WestJet Pilots. Best wishes.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 7:32 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
BillyD wrote:
Unions were badly needed back in the '30's and '40's when there weren't any labour laws. In today's society, unions do nothing but increase costs. In Canada, socialism is dying. Socialist governments do nothing but suck on union teets, causing increased costs and deficits.

I love Westjet! Unfortunately unionization is BAD for them. Just look at what the markets think of unions, their shares dropped significantly. Generally it's bad for business and for the flying customers.


Unions are the only reason we have fatigue rules.


There are many fatigue rules brought in at WS for the pilots by the previous association....
 
FlyUSAir
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 8:19 pm

Whatever happened to in-house unionization? Why do we have to join terrible groups like ALPA?
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ACDC8
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 9:54 pm

ACATROYAL wrote:
Well getting a union means the end of WestJet as we know it. Unions destroy everything they touch. Poor Westjet it was a good run...

WestJet stopped being WestJet years ago. The amount of unhappy employees has been growing year after year - and the reflection on service levels has shown.
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767333ER
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 10:16 pm

ACATROYAL wrote:
Well getting a union means the end of WestJet as we know it. Unions destroy everything they touch. Poor Westjet it was a good run...

Which is why all the big airlines in North Ameirca have been destroyed... NOT.
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roadpilot
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 10:17 pm

FlyUSAir wrote:
Whatever happened to in-house unionization? Why do we have to join terrible groups like ALPA?


ALPA has done alot for civil aviation since it's creation. You really should Google "Flying the Line" and educate yourself beffore calling it a "terrible group*
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 10:53 pm

I believe that the idea of a ULCC forming as an airline within an airline forced the issue. IINM, Air Canada Rouge is a separate airline completely from regular Air Canada with a separate AOC. If WestJet is serious about a new ULCC, it would need to form another airline with a new AOC. JetBlue recently had its pilots unionize without issue, and Delta has long had its pilots unionized (but almost no one else).
 
FlyUSAir
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sat May 13, 2017 11:03 pm

roadpilot wrote:
FlyUSAir wrote:
Whatever happened to in-house unionization? Why do we have to join terrible groups like ALPA?


ALPA has done alot for civil aviation since it's creation. You really should Google "Flying the Line" and educate yourself beffore calling it a "terrible group*


Tell that to the great folks over at WN. In house unionization is the best course of action to ensure you are being represented, and not threatened with the company shutting down a la NK.
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767333ER
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sun May 14, 2017 2:04 am

FlyUSAir wrote:
roadpilot wrote:
FlyUSAir wrote:
Whatever happened to in-house unionization? Why do we have to join terrible groups like ALPA?


ALPA has done alot for civil aviation since it's creation. You really should Google "Flying the Line" and educate yourself beffore calling it a "terrible group*


Tell that to the great folks over at WN. In house unionization is the best course of action to ensure you are being represented, and not threatened with the company shutting down a la NK.

WS is nothing like NK and has very little in common with WN anymore, using those as examples are not fair. Different business model, different country, different group of pilots, and different management. If ALPA was so destructive as you say, why are airlines like Jazz, Delta, JetBlue, Alaska, FedEx, and United, all ALPA pilot group, not threatening to shut down too?
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IPFreely
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sun May 14, 2017 2:24 am

767333ER wrote:
If ALPA was so destructive as you say, why are airlines like Jazz, Delta, JetBlue, Alaska, FedEx, and United, all ALPA pilot group, not threatening to shut down too?


You must have forgotten that Spirit Airlines pilots are represented by the ALPA since you didn't mention them. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You must have also forgotten that Delta pilots spent a good chunk of last year picketing outside of airports.

The other airlines you mention are partway through contracts that in some cases run thru 2021.

I say congrats to the employees of WestJet. And not just the pilots, this will affect everyone! Let the chaos begin!
 
speedbird52
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sun May 14, 2017 3:34 am

Skywatcher wrote:
I can never get a handle on how pilots, some of whom earn north of 200k per year for flying maybe 80 hours per month

What airline is paying this kind of money? SIGN ME UP! Not sure if you realize, but starting wages for pilots is often under 35,000 a year!
 
roadpilot
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sun May 14, 2017 1:37 pm

FlyUSAir wrote:
roadpilot wrote:
FlyUSAir wrote:
Whatever happened to in-house unionization? Why do we have to join terrible groups like ALPA?


ALPA has done alot for civil aviation since it's creation. You really should Google "Flying the Line" and educate yourself beffore calling it a "terrible group*


Tell that to the great folks over at WN. In house unionization is the best course of action to ensure you are being represented, and not threatened with the company shutting down a la NK.


You seem to gloss over the fact that SWAPA didn't exactly have a smooth time getting that last contract. I seem to remember pilots picketing DAL and other airports......and I believe ALPA pilots were walking along side them in solidarity

In house representation only works if the company takes it seriously. Case in point, the JetBlue pilots. There was a in house union and the company repeatedly acted in bad faith so the pilot​ group got fed up and voting in ALPA. I expect to see the same at Skywest as there seems to be a consensus that the in house union isn't strong enough to deal with management.

The narrative that ALPA is the enemy is getting very old, again I ask you to read Flying the Line. You may just learn something
 
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767333ER
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sun May 14, 2017 4:12 pm

IPFreely wrote:
767333ER wrote:
If ALPA was so destructive as you say, why are airlines like Jazz, Delta, JetBlue, Alaska, FedEx, and United, all ALPA pilot group, not threatening to shut down too?


You must have forgotten that Spirit Airlines pilots are represented by the ALPA since you didn't mention them. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You must have also forgotten that Delta pilots spent a good chunk of last year picketing outside of airports.

The other airlines you mention are partway through contracts that in some cases run thru 2021.

I say congrats to the employees of WestJet. And not just the pilots, this will affect everyone! Let the chaos begin!

Mentioned NK earlier in my reply, but of course you filtered that out. They have other problems other than ALPA. I know people that work at Jazz, I know people that work at United, and I know people that work at FedEx and regardless of what their political views are and views on unions in general are, they say pilots should be unionized and that ALPA is a good answer. I don't know what you think you know, but you really need to educate yourself instead of picking apart other's replies and laughing at them.

I've only been a member here for a year and even in that time the level of intelligence here has greatly declined!
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thekorean
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sun May 14, 2017 4:28 pm

This is interesting. Union that operates in two countries.
 
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longhauler
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sun May 14, 2017 5:00 pm

767333ER wrote:
I've only been a member here for a year and even in that time the level of intelligence here has greatly declined!

Over the last one to two years, it is now possible to post comments and opinions without being a paid member.

I see that resulted in two basic changes. One is that before one had to be pretty passionate and accurate before paying. The other is that I notice several people on here have more than one account ... as there is no cost associated. But, (and one is one rather vocal Westjet fanboy), they start fake arguments with themselves to keep the thread going and the subject aimed where they want it. When you realize what's going on, it is rather entertaining!

But back to ALPA. It is not the holy grail, but it isn't a death sentence either. The simple fact that the most profitable airlines on the earth have pilots represented by a trade union is proof enough. Moreso when you consider that ALPA is among those unions!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
strfyr51
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sun May 14, 2017 5:24 pm

BillyD wrote:
Unions were badly needed back in the '30's and '40's when there weren't any labour laws. In today's society, unions do nothing but increase costs. In Canada, socialism is dying. Socialist governments do nothing but suck on union teets, causing increased costs and deficits.

I love Westjet! Unfortunately unionization is BAD for them. Just look at what the markets think of unions, their shares dropped significantly. Generally it's bad for business and for the flying customers.


So tell me? What is REALLY so bad about collective bargaining that you would think the Business is going bad?? West jet management is now going to deal with One collective group set down rules of engagement, Stipulate to seniority rules, Stipulate to conditions for employment and Stipulate to Pay and benefits. Tell me what's wrong with that??
 
FlyUSAir
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sun May 14, 2017 6:46 pm

longhauler wrote:
767333ER wrote:
I've only been a member here for a year and even in that time the level of intelligence here has greatly declined!

Over the last one to two years, it is now possible to post comments and opinions without being a paid member.

I see that resulted in two basic changes. One is that before one had to be pretty passionate and accurate before paying. The other is that I notice several people on here have more than one account ... as there is no cost associated. But, (and one is one rather vocal Westjet fanboy), they start fake arguments with themselves to keep the thread going and the subject aimed where they want it. When you realize what's going on, it is rather entertaining!

But back to ALPA. It is not the holy grail, but it isn't a death sentence either. The simple fact that the most profitable airlines on the earth have pilots represented by a trade union is proof enough. Moreso when you consider that ALPA is among those unions!


I hope you report those accounts to the mods as it's against Airlines.net TOS.

Unions work, especially in the airline industry but I have my own personal stories/examples why I don't like ALPA.
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SWEDISHBLENDER
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sun May 14, 2017 7:21 pm

roadpilot wrote:
In house representation only works if the company takes it seriously. Case in point, the JetBlue pilots. There was a in house union and the company repeatedly acted in bad faith so the pilot​ group got fed up and voting in ALPA. I expect to see the same at Skywest as there seems to be a consensus that the in house union isn't strong enough to deal with management.

The narrative that ALPA is the enemy is getting very old, again I ask you to read Flying the Line. You may just learn something
The best description I've heard of ALPA is it's a "tool box" (not in the pejorative sense). That being said, a common response from Union Officers to members questioning ALPA representation has been "It's not ALPA's fault if you don't know how to use the tools properly". If a pilot group failed with an in-house Union...ALPA representation is no assurance for future success.
 
BravoOne
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sun May 14, 2017 7:58 pm

FlyUSAir wrote:
longhauler wrote:
767333ER wrote:
I've only been a member here for a year and even in that time the level of intelligence here has greatly declined!

Over the last one to two years, it is now possible to post comments and opinions without being a paid member.

I see that resulted in two basic changes. One is that before one had to be pretty passionate and accurate before paying. The other is that I notice several people on here have more than one account ... as there is no cost associated. But, (and one is one rather vocal Westjet fanboy), they start fake arguments with themselves to keep the thread going and the subject aimed where they want it. When you realize what's going on, it is rather entertaining!

But back to ALPA. It is not the holy grail, but it isn't a death sentence either. The simple fact that the most profitable airlines on the earth have pilots represented by a trade union is proof enough. Moreso when you consider that ALPA is among those unions!


I hope you report those accounts to the mods as it's against Airlines.net TOS.

Unions work, especially in the airline industry but I have my own personal stories/examples why I don't like ALPA.



You don't have to love them, but if all you're doing is standing on the sidelines and complain about the company on side of your mouth, and the union on the other side then you have become part of the problem. Frankly you don't sound smart enough to be in a leadership role so I guess we will just have to move along and work with the best and brightest of the membership that has their eyes on the prize and knows how difficult it can be herding a bunch of cats. ALPA has made several huge mistakes in the past, hopefully everyone has learned something from that.
 
roadpilot
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sun May 14, 2017 8:55 pm

SWEDISHBLENDER wrote:
The best description I've heard of ALPA is it's a "tool box" (not in the pejorative sense). That being said, a common response from Union Officers to members questioning ALPA representation has been "It's not ALPA's fault if you don't know how to use the tools properly". If a pilot group failed with an in-house Union...ALPA representation is no assurance for future success.


I would think ALPA has a bigger "toolbox" for the WestJet pilots to access then their in house deal. I will agree with you that it won't be a cure all for all their grievances, especially if they vote in union officers that aren't strong enough to fight for the membership. However unlike some on here, I'm not one to begrudge a work group because they think they need a union to represent them.
 
FlyUSAir
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Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Sun May 14, 2017 11:51 pm

BravoOne wrote:
FlyUSAir wrote:
longhauler wrote:
Over the last one to two years, it is now possible to post comments and opinions without being a paid member.

I see that resulted in two basic changes. One is that before one had to be pretty passionate and accurate before paying. The other is that I notice several people on here have more than one account ... as there is no cost associated. But, (and one is one rather vocal Westjet fanboy), they start fake arguments with themselves to keep the thread going and the subject aimed where they want it. When you realize what's going on, it is rather entertaining!

But back to ALPA. It is not the holy grail, but it isn't a death sentence either. The simple fact that the most profitable airlines on the earth have pilots represented by a trade union is proof enough. Moreso when you consider that ALPA is among those unions!


I hope you report those accounts to the mods as it's against Airlines.net TOS.

Unions work, especially in the airline industry but I have my own personal stories/examples why I don't like ALPA.



You don't have to love them, but if all you're doing is standing on the sidelines and complain about the company on side of your mouth, and the union on the other side then you have become part of the problem. Frankly you don't sound smart enough to be in a leadership role so I guess we will just have to move along and work with the best and brightest of the membership that has their eyes on the prize and knows how difficult it can be herding a bunch of cats. ALPA has made several huge mistakes in the past, hopefully everyone has learned something from that.


Management usually does what is best for the survival of the company, and if some need to be taken down to fulfill that goal, then so be it. There are plenty of other companies/industries out there you can work for.

Also, it sounds like you have a leadership role in ALPA. Figures.
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flight152
Posts: 3463
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:04 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Mon May 15, 2017 12:49 am

speedbird52 wrote:
Skywatcher wrote:
I can never get a handle on how pilots, some of whom earn north of 200k per year for flying maybe 80 hours per month

What airline is paying this kind of money? SIGN ME UP! Not sure if you realize, but starting wages for pilots is often under 35,000 a year!

Try Delta, United, American, Southwest and along with UPS and FedEx.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2630
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Mon May 15, 2017 1:48 am

roadpilot wrote:
ALPA has done alot for civil aviation since it's creation. You really should Google "Flying the Line" and educate yourself beffore calling it a "terrible group*


To all posters: if you want to read "Flying the Line" for entertainment, go ahead. But please, for the Love of God, do not read it with the idea that you are educating yourself. It is union propaganda, nothing more, nothing less.
 
BillyD
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:25 pm

Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Mon May 15, 2017 3:56 am

strfyr51 wrote:
BillyD wrote:
Unions were badly needed back in the '30's and '40's when there weren't any labour laws. In today's society, unions do nothing but increase costs. In Canada, socialism is dying. Socialist governments do nothing but suck on union teets, causing increased costs and deficits.

I love Westjet! Unfortunately unionization is BAD for them. Just look at what the markets think of unions, their shares dropped significantly. Generally it's bad for business and for the flying customers.


So tell me? What is REALLY so bad about collective bargaining that you would think the Business is going bad?? West jet management is now going to deal with One collective group set down rules of engagement, Stipulate to seniority rules, Stipulate to conditions for employment and Stipulate to Pay and benefits. Tell me what's wrong with that??


Well, unions today do nothing but drive up prices. Collective bargaining brings in long term contracts that sometimes are not viable or logical. Unions here are demanding 3% yearly increases when there is high unemployment and tons of people out of work. Taxes here have jumped astronomically to have to pay for these contracts. Don't get me started on the corruption that unions create. Construction unions in Quebec are the most corrupt unions going. Nothing short of organized crime. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3172
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Mon May 15, 2017 11:24 am

A lot of biased claims and no citations to back them up, from the usual pot stirring posters and also not surprising commentators that rarely post except to bash unions. This must be the strategy to drive up page clicks and back up a pro management agenda.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3172
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Mon May 15, 2017 11:30 am

longhauler wrote:
767333ER wrote:
I've only been a member here for a year and even in that time the level of intelligence here has greatly declined!

Over the last one to two years, it is now possible to post comments and opinions without being a paid member.

I see that resulted in two basic changes. One is that before one had to be pretty passionate and accurate before paying. The other is that I notice several people on here have more than one account ... as there is no cost associated. But, (and one is one rather vocal Westjet fanboy), they start fake arguments with themselves to keep the thread going and the subject aimed where they want it. When you realize what's going on, it is rather entertaining!

But back to ALPA. It is not the holy grail, but it isn't a death sentence either. The simple fact that the most profitable airlines on the earth have pilots represented by a trade union is proof enough. Moreso when you consider that ALPA is among those unions!

If you hate unions and or are political conservative here, you can get away with anything. If you have the nerve to call them out in discussions I find myself being a target for getting smacked down as their posts stay and mine disappear, with no comment from them for the reason. I liked the old model of anet better.
 
SWEDISHBLENDER
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:30 pm

Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Mon May 15, 2017 11:55 am

Skywatcher wrote:
I can never get a handle on how pilots, some of whom earn north of 200k per year for flying maybe 80 hours per month, are not "management".
Operative word being *SOME*. These pilots are most likely the senior ones towards the end of their careers. That's after years of, often times, mediocre regional pay. 12+ hour duty days is not uncommon in the regional world, especially if you're based on the East Coast.
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
Posts: 447
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:09 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Mon May 15, 2017 12:12 pm

SWEDISHBLENDER wrote:
Skywatcher wrote:
I can never get a handle on how pilots, some of whom earn north of 200k per year for flying maybe 80 hours per month, are not "management".
Operative word being *SOME*. These pilots are most likely the senior ones towards the end of their careers. That's after years of, often times, mediocre regional pay. 12+ hour duty days is not uncommon in the regional world, especially if you're based on the East Coast.


Actually with pay raises in recent years, most US based legacy airline captains are well above 200K and the widebody captains are closer to 300K. The LCCs are not that far behind. Regional pay has come up at most of the regionals and starting pay is closer to 60-70K with all the incentive money being given out.

Duty days are not usually longer than 12 hours anymore due to FAR 117. Given the amount of segments a regional pilot will usually fly in a day it might be far less than 12 hours for the daily duty limit.

A lot has changed in pilot pay since the consolidation of the majors and the implementation of FAR 117.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2877
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Mon May 15, 2017 4:34 pm

Mods you might want to merge this post into this one: viewtopic.php?t=1362991

Funny how the one I started didn't gain much traction, lol.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5035
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Mon May 15, 2017 4:56 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
Skywatcher wrote:
I can never get a handle on how pilots, some of whom earn north of 200k per year for flying maybe 80 hours per month

What airline is paying this kind of money? SIGN ME UP! Not sure if you realize, but starting wages for pilots is often under 35,000 a year!

Not anymore. Regional guys are starting at like 50 or higher now.
 
drgmobile
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:06 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Mon May 15, 2017 7:51 pm

longhauler wrote:
This is very good news for Westjet's pilots. And ... the Westjet fanboys on here may nor realize it, but it is good for Westjet as well.

sixtyseven wrote:
Enjoy your weekend Saretsky.


This made me chuckle. More and more, Saretsky is making Westjet into Canadian Airlines. I just hope the outcome is better this time than when he was running Canadian the last time.


Saretsky never ran Canadian Airlines. He rose to VP roles over Airports and Marketing before moving to Alaska Airlines.
 
drgmobile
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:06 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Mon May 15, 2017 8:01 pm

longhauler wrote:
dr1980 wrote:
Could you elaborate on that?

Last year, Gregg Saretsky stated publicly that anyone that is not a team player at Westjet, will be made to feel so uncomfortable that they will quit. Not only is this illegal by Canadian Labour Law, but it controvenes workplace harrassment laws. I wonder if he would have been so glib if he were facing down the barrel of ALPA?


I believe this is the comment that you are referencing, as reported by CBC: (http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/westjet-20-grown-up-problems-1.3515255

"There are WestJetters who don't contribute positively to the culture," said WestJet CEO Gregg Saretsky at one of the meetings. "We've read the stories on Westnet [WestJet's internal forum], we've seen their comments and we need to bring these people back into the fold... And if we can't bring them back into the fold, we have to make it uncomfortable for them to stay here. They need to find their happiness elsewhere."

I wouldn't call this glib, I'd say he was taking responsibility for culture and employee satisfaction, but that there are some people who will never be happy and that these folks should leave. I would think most happy WestJet employees and customers would agree with that sentiment.
 
T773ER
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:13 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Mon May 15, 2017 9:01 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
SWEDISHBLENDER wrote:
Skywatcher wrote:
I can never get a handle on how pilots, some of whom earn north of 200k per year for flying maybe 80 hours per month, are not "management".
Operative word being *SOME*. These pilots are most likely the senior ones towards the end of their careers. That's after years of, often times, mediocre regional pay. 12+ hour duty days is not uncommon in the regional world, especially if you're based on the East Coast.


Actually with pay raises in recent years, most US based legacy airline captains are well above 200K and the widebody captains are closer to 300K. The LCCs are not that far behind. Regional pay has come up at most of the regionals and starting pay is closer to 60-70K with all the incentive money being given out.

Duty days are not usually longer than 12 hours anymore due to FAR 117. Given the amount of segments a regional pilot will usually fly in a day it might be far less than 12 hours for the daily duty limit.

A lot has changed in pilot pay since the consolidation of the majors and the implementation of FAR 117.


Not just widebody Captains are making that money, at AA, UA, & DL Fo's are making around 200k and Cpt's closer to 300-400k when you factor in recent years’ profit sharing checks (as high as 60k per year at DL). Total compensation grows even more when you add the additional 16% all of the US majors give to 401ks with the pilots not having to match any of it.
 
SWEDISHBLENDER
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:30 pm

Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Tue May 16, 2017 12:08 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:

Actually with pay raises in recent years, most US based legacy airline captains are well above 200K and the widebody captains are closer to 300K.
Just saw that. Good for them! After years of getting raped by the company and having 401k's gutted, it's about time they get compensated what they're worth once again.

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
The LCCs are not that far behind. Regional pay has come up at most of the regionals and starting pay is closer to 60-70K with all the incentive money being given out.
Ehhh...the LCC's (SWA withstanding) won't follow suit. The business model won't support it. As for the Regionals, those are signing bonuses. After year 1 or 2, pay falls back to previously aforementioned pay ranges.

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
Duty days are not usually longer than 12 hours anymore due to FAR 117. Given the amount of segments a regional pilot will usually fly in a day it might be far less than 12 hours for the daily duty limit.
Duty days are not usually *scheduled* longer than 12 hours. Flying in an East Coast network? It's going to exceed 12 hours on a regular basis.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3417
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Tue May 16, 2017 12:38 pm

SWEDISHBLENDER wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
The LCCs are not that far behind. Regional pay has come up at most of the regionals and starting pay is closer to 60-70K with all the incentive money being given out.
Ehhh...the LCC's (SWA withstanding) won't follow suit. The business model won't support it. As for the Regionals, those are signing bonuses. After year 1 or 2, pay falls back to previously aforementioned pay ranges.

Not at the reputable regional carriers, especially those owned by AA & DL.
From my cold, dead hands
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
Posts: 447
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:09 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Join ALPA

Fri May 19, 2017 3:25 am

SWEDISHBLENDER wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:

Actually with pay raises in recent years, most US based legacy airline captains are well above 200K and the widebody captains are closer to 300K.
Just saw that. Good for them! After years of getting raped by the company and having 401k's gutted, it's about time they get compensated what they're worth once again.

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
The LCCs are not that far behind. Regional pay has come up at most of the regionals and starting pay is closer to 60-70K with all the incentive money being given out.
Ehhh...the LCC's (SWA withstanding) won't follow suit. The business model won't support it. As for the Regionals, those are signing bonuses. After year 1 or 2, pay falls back to previously aforementioned pay ranges.

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
Duty days are not usually longer than 12 hours anymore due to FAR 117. Given the amount of segments a regional pilot will usually fly in a day it might be far less than 12 hours for the daily duty limit.
Duty days are not usually *scheduled* longer than 12 hours. Flying in an East Coast network? It's going to exceed 12 hours on a regular basis.


FAR 117 is very strict and has changed the way carriers have to schedule their crews. There is very little wiggle room in FAR 117 compared to the previous Part 121 rest rules.

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