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callumconroydub
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B767s - a dying breed?

Sat May 13, 2017 6:49 pm

Would it be correct to say that the Boeing 767 is a dying type of aircraft? Basically, my question is: why don't I see too many 762s around anymore?
All I see nowadays are 763s and occasionally 764s.
What would the price of a 762 be today? Were they not efficient or something? I don't get it.
Overall, will 767s become out of production soon?
 
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Stitch
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sat May 13, 2017 6:50 pm

The 767-300 costs about the same per hour to fly as the 767-200 and the larger passenger and cargo capacity generates more revenue per trip.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sat May 13, 2017 6:54 pm

Well, I don't think a passenger variant has been delivered in 3-4 years now. Boeing is still producing them, but only in a military variant.

Certainly for the late 1970s they were excellent aircraft. BUT: there was no CFD at the time, no FBW, no computerized drafting, no CFRP, no wide-chord fan blades. The day of the 767 is coming to an end.
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PEK777
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sat May 13, 2017 7:00 pm

While they seem to be on the way out, a neo option would be a quick solution to the mom problem and it would go hand in hand with the 757neo given these aircraft were developed in parallel
 
callumconroydub
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sat May 13, 2017 7:02 pm

I was on a Delta 763 from Dublin last year and it was a great aircraft, didn't notice anything wrong with it.
 
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Adipasquale
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sat May 13, 2017 7:02 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Well, I don't think a passenger variant has been delivered in 3-4 years now. Boeing is still producing them, but only in a military variant.

The last passenger frame Ln. 1068 was delivered to Air Astana in mid-2014. In addition to the KC-46, which is based off the -200, there are also still freighters for FX rolling slowly off the line. Its heyday is certainly behind it, but the 767 still has many years of flying ahead of it. A pretty good run for a plane that really hasn't changed much since the early 1980s.
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callumconroydub
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sat May 13, 2017 7:05 pm

So, they wouldn't essentially be a 'must-have' aircraft then?
 
777PHX
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sat May 13, 2017 7:05 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Well, I don't think a passenger variant has been delivered in 3-4 years now. Boeing is still producing them, but only in a military variant.


There's still 68 outstanding orders for freighters as well. At the current production rate, Boeing has enough unfilled orders to keep the line open through 2020.

Assuming FedEx and UPS keeps those planes 30-40 years, we'll be in our geriatric years by the time they're retired.
Last edited by 777PHX on Sat May 13, 2017 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
UA444
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sat May 13, 2017 9:08 pm

UA is keeping all of their 767s for the foreseeable future. And both PAX and F are still available from Boeing still and the USAF tankers will keep the line going for a long time.
 
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Stitch
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sat May 13, 2017 9:11 pm

callumconroydub wrote:
So, they wouldn't essentially be a 'must-have' aircraft then?


It's an excellent freighter, but there are better options for passenger transport.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sat May 13, 2017 9:24 pm

The Frankentanker is mix of -200 fuselage, -300IGW wing and center section, -400 cockpit with a bunch of engineering changes for the AAR mission. It is a mutt

GF
 
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Adipasquale
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sat May 13, 2017 9:33 pm

callumconroydub wrote:
I was on a Delta 763 from Dublin last year and it was a great aircraft, didn't notice anything wrong with it.

There's nothing wrong with the 767 from a pax perspective. Many airlines that operate the type have refurbished the cabins to feature a competitive hard product, and I would argue that the 2-3-2 layout is the best of any commercial airliner. Some of my best flights ever have been on 767s. The problem is that the 767 is a design approaching 40 years of age, and there are newer types that are more efficient to operate. The 767 still has an advantage in that ownership costs are lower because many airlines own theirs outright, and therefore do not need to shell out for lease payments as they would on new aircraft. However, if airlines bought new ones, this advantage would disappear. Airlines that continue to operate the 767 benefit from the fact that Boeing and other vendors will continue to support the type for some time to come due to the KC-46 program, and I imagine ten years from now, there will still be a not insignificant number of 767s still in passenger service.
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DocLightning
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sat May 13, 2017 9:36 pm

PEK777 wrote:
While they seem to be on the way out, a neo option would be a quick solution to the mom problem and it would go hand in hand with the 757neo given these aircraft were developed in parallel


The wing is pre-CFD. There is no FBW system. There isn't enough clearance under the wing to install an engine with an optimal fan diameter. The fuselage has two aisles for 7 passengers. Aisles do not earn revenue, so the cross-section is the least efficient possible for a twin-aisle aircraft.

Best to start from scratch and come up with a new model that has upgrade potential.
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767333ER
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sat May 13, 2017 10:39 pm

DocLightning wrote:
PEK777 wrote:
While they seem to be on the way out, a neo option would be a quick solution to the mom problem and it would go hand in hand with the 757neo given these aircraft were developed in parallel


The wing is pre-CFD. There is no FBW system. There isn't enough clearance under the wing to install an engine with an optimal fan diameter. The fuselage has two aisles for 7 passengers. Aisles do not earn revenue, so the cross-section is the least efficient possible for a twin-aisle aircraft.

Best to start from scratch and come up with a new model that has upgrade potential.

The 767 ustilizes FBW for the flapperons and spoliers so to say there is no FBW is false. The 737 has the same situation now with FBW and engines, yet it works. The 767's wing isn't much older than the A320's yet the A320 is still considered great, it can't be that Airbus did that much of a better job only about 5 years later. 7 across being terribly inefficient is way overblown, if it was so bad the 767 wouldn't have killed off the A310.

Now with that said, a 767 max is something I don't see happening. If they were to do it however I believe they could fit newer engines as the 787 seems to do so with the same amount of ground clearance. They could also put the 777X's cockpit in it. They could even convert it fully to FBW and even give it a new wing if they thought that would work, but I think after what happened with the 747-8, they don't want to do a project like this again in case they reach the same outcome. I do think the 767 has more upgrade potential than the 737, it just won't get a chance to ever prove it.
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Stitch
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sat May 13, 2017 10:44 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The Frankentanker is mix of -200 fuselage, -300IGW wing and center section, -400 cockpit with a bunch of engineering changes for the AAR mission. It is a mutt.


That was the RFP submitted for the 2008 KC-X competition.

The 767-2C, which is the civilian base for the KC-46A, is a 767-200ER airframe with a cargo door, reinforced floor and some of the hardware (wiring and plumbing, I believe) for the tanker fitted.
 
callumconroydub
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sat May 13, 2017 10:48 pm

What about the 762s, what was wrong with them that I don't see them as pax versions as often as the 763s or 764s?
 
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sat May 13, 2017 10:49 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The Frankentanker is mix of -200 fuselage, -300IGW wing and center section, -400 cockpit with a bunch of engineering changes for the AAR mission. It is a mutt

GF


It used a new avionics suite from Rockwell Collins, cockpit looks nothing like the -400.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sat May 13, 2017 10:50 pm

callumconroydub wrote:
I was on a Delta 763 from Dublin last year and it was a great aircraft, didn't notice anything wrong with it.


The Delta ones in particular, however, are high-time frames. Many are over 100,000 hours and some are approaching 130,000 hours. As for a dying breed, with the 767 freighter becoming popular and over 700 examples still flying, I expect that 767s will either be converted to freighters or be flown until end of life. I would not be surprised to a Delta 767 time out completely.
 
EI202
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sat May 13, 2017 10:50 pm

callumconroydub wrote:
What about the 762s, what was wrong with them that I don't see them as pax versions as often as the 763s or 764s?



How do you not see that aircraft designs can just get old and outdated? That newer planes come along which are cheaper to operate?
 
Arion640
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sat May 13, 2017 11:01 pm

I believe they are still going strong in Japan. JAL has Late 2011 models flying on domestic routes. They'll be around until at least 2030 i'd of thought.
 
Mr AirNZ
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun May 14, 2017 1:23 am

For the same reason you don't see people carrying around a Motorola Dynatac 8000x. Technology moves on.
 
CX747
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun May 14, 2017 1:44 am

Overall, there are newer more efficient options like the 787 or A330neo for passenger operators to purchase today. The 767 still has a massive worldwide fleet base and we will come continue to see them for many years to come. It's true competitors for it's "time" in the arena were the A300/310 and it won that battle.

It's future lies in the KC-46 and possible new freighter orders that come in from FEDEX, UPS and other cargo operations. The aircraft is extremely strong in the second hand market where operators are keeping PAX to Freighter companies running 24/7. The Amazon operation is just really starting and has a goal of 100 aircraft in the fleet. Right now it solely operates 767s.

The one interesting thing will be if "new" birds are needed to fill the 767 freighter demand outside of FEDEX buying shiny ones from Everett. Another post on this site has a pax to cargo conversion center claiming an additional 20 year lifespan for 767s that go through it's 6 month maintenance/conversion program. That is for pretty well used aircraft.
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FriscoHeavy
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun May 14, 2017 1:48 am

callumconroydub wrote:
What about the 762s, what was wrong with them that I don't see them as pax versions as often as the 763s or 764s?



Simple. The 762 is more expensive to operate than a 763 or 764 on a cost per seat basis. That's all there is to it.

The 762 has poor economics. The bigger models are more efficient.
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Samrnpage
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun May 14, 2017 1:54 am

They are great workhorses, but they are 10-40 year old machines. Heavier, less economical and ageing compared to newer 787s, a330s and even top end A321s/737 they will in time, fade away but that wont happen for at least another decade. They are still in production technically.
 
2175301
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun May 14, 2017 2:03 am

The OP is right in one way.. That it is a dying aircraft... But, it is a design dying with dignity and after a very long useful life.

Newer generations have surpassed it as a passenger aircraft; yet, it is a highly capable aircraft for its design age and most every one is keeping the 763 in service for who knows how long.

As a Freighter the 763 still dominates the market in its size range - and will likely continue to do so for many years into the future - which is why it is still in production as a Freighter; and why so many used passenger frames are converted to Freighters.

If anything... the 767 sets the standard for how you want an airline design to die...

Have a great day,
 
PanzerPowner
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun May 14, 2017 2:10 am

Arion640 wrote:
I believe they are still going strong in Japan. JAL has Late 2011 models flying on domestic routes. They'll be around until at least 2030 i'd of thought.



If Boeing could make the B747 SRs, the D and others for the Japanese Market, what is stopping them from making some sort of crazy passenger crammed 767 for the Japanese.
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Stitch
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun May 14, 2017 3:07 am

PanzerPowner wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
I believe they are still going strong in Japan. JAL has Late 2011 models flying on domestic routes. They'll be around until at least 2030 i'd of thought.


If Boeing could make the B747 SRs, the D and others for the Japanese Market, what is stopping them from making some sort of crazy passenger crammed 767 for the Japanese.


Exit Limitations. Main reason Japan still operates them is restrictions on four-engine operations out of many airports for noise considerations and that it fits in a smaller gate than the A330 / A350 / 777 / 787. Boeing also offered a number of them to both ANA and JAL as compensation for the delays in the 787-8 deliveries and cancellation of the 787-3, which was intended as the domestic 767 replacement for both carriers.
 
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun May 14, 2017 3:08 am

DocLightning wrote:
Well, I don't think a passenger variant has been delivered in 3-4 years now. Boeing is still producing them, but only in a military variant.

Certainly for the late 1970s they were excellent aircraft. BUT: there was no CFD at the time, no FBW, no computerized drafting, no CFRP, no wide-chord fan blades. The day of the 767 is coming to an end.

They didn't exist in the 1970s... The 767 is not going anywhere for at least ten years: As of now it is one of the most commonly used long haul aircraft in the United States.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun May 14, 2017 3:28 am

speedbird52 wrote:
They didn't exist in the 1970s... The 767 is not going anywhere for at least ten years: As of now it is one of the most commonly used long haul aircraft in the United States.


They were designed in the 1970s. And I agree, we will see the 767-300 flying for at least another 10 years before we see retirements accelerate. Given that the 767 is older than the 744 and the 744 is being drawn down, that speaks well of the 767 overall design.

2175301 wrote:
As a Freighter the 763 still dominates the market in its size range - and will likely continue to do so for many years into the future - which is why it is still in production as a Freighter; and why so many used passenger frames are converted to Freighters.


Freighters, of course, do not have aisles. So for this use, the 767 is a really great design.
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Cointrin330
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun May 14, 2017 11:47 am

The 767 is a great aircraft and I think you'll see them continue to fly, particularly with two of the US3 for another 5 and possibly 10 years. AA's 767 fleet is, apart from the 9 new builds bought after the TWA acquisition in 2001, the oldest and are being drawn down at an accelerated rate. They may be cheaper to operate but are becoming less reliable from a dispatch perspective and cabin modifications beyond Business Class won't happen, a sign that the planes will be exited from the fleet sooner rather than later. United's 767 fleet is actually not that large (35 767-300ERs and 16 767-400ERs). The -300ER's were built and delivered I believe from the mid-1990's onward (with a significant number delivered after 2000). The -400ER's are all ex-Continental aircraft, built and delivered from 2000 to 2002 and have a lot of life left in them. United has reliability issues with the plane as well, and this could be a function of putting off heavy maintenance during the pre-merger bankruptcy years or United's on-going operational challenges, which are improving somewhat. United has not yet identified a replacement aircraft for the 767, though it is widely assumed at least on this forum that the A350 order will be modified or converted to aircraft that will be better suited as 767 replacements. The 787-10 is also likely to be used on some routes flown by the 767-300ER. As for Delta, they have not really identified a replacement aircraft for the 767. The airline invested a lot of money in upgrading their 767's to a much wider degree than either UA or AA. Many are mid-1990's builds and onwards but at some point, the 58 strong fleet does need to be replaced. Delta would, most likely, do it in stages, and keep them flying longer as many are fully paid, not leased. Outside the US, the 767 is slowly becoming less common.
 
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun May 14, 2017 12:05 pm

DocLightning wrote:
The wing is pre-CFD.


Actually, that's not exactly correct. Boeing's use of CFD goes back to the SST program of the 1960s and it definitely was used on the 767 program. The first reference shows how the primary use is wing design, and then for studying airflow around the nacelles and pylons. The computers available today are many orders of magnitude faster and cheaper than those available back then, but that doesn't mean the computers used to do design work for the 767 were useless.

Ref: http://calmarresearch.com/NF/STG/AGPS/m ... 3-3439.pdf
Ref: http://aero-comlab.stanford.edu/jameson/boeing.html

Self gloss: Some software I did as an intern in the 80s was used by Boeing in their manufacturing of the 767 wing.
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xdlx
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:52 pm

How about doing what they did with 737 series? An updated 767 700/800/900 series based on the 2/3/400 series with newer technology and updated economics.
 
mcg
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:02 pm

FWIW I seem to recall from the Amazon Prime Air thread that the number of 767's in service at the end of 2016 was the same as the number in service at the start of 2016. Pretty impressive for a dying breed.
 
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Stitch
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:26 pm

xdlx wrote:
How about doing what they did with 737 series? An updated 767 700/800/900 series based on the 2/3/400 series with newer technology and updated economics.


I'm guessing that for a true long-haul platform, LD3 containers are desirable / required which means the 767 fuselage is too narrow. I also expect airlines are asking for 8-abreast (at ~17 inch seat width), which also rules out the 767's cross section.
 
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:48 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
The 767 is a great aircraft and I think you'll see them continue to fly, particularly with two of the US3 for another 5 and possibly 10 years. AA's 767 fleet is, apart from the 9 new builds bought after the TWA acquisition in 2001, the oldest and are being drawn down at an accelerated rate. They may be cheaper to operate but are becoming less reliable from a dispatch perspective and cabin modifications beyond Business Class won't happen, a sign that the planes will be exited from the fleet sooner rather than later. United's 767 fleet is actually not that large (35 767-300ERs and 16 767-400ERs). The -300ER's were built and delivered I believe from the mid-1990's onward (with a significant number delivered after 2000). The -400ER's are all ex-Continental aircraft, built and delivered from 2000 to 2002 and have a lot of life left in them. United has reliability issues with the plane as well, and this could be a function of putting off heavy maintenance during the pre-merger bankruptcy years or United's on-going operational challenges, which are improving somewhat. United has not yet identified a replacement aircraft for the 767, though it is widely assumed at least on this forum that the A350 order will be modified or converted to aircraft that will be better suited as 767 replacements. The 787-10 is also likely to be used on some routes flown by the 767-300ER. As for Delta, they have not really identified a replacement aircraft for the 767. The airline invested a lot of money in upgrading their 767's to a much wider degree than either UA or AA. Many are mid-1990's builds and onwards but at some point, the 58 strong fleet does need to be replaced. Delta would, most likely, do it in stages, and keep them flying longer as many are fully paid, not leased. Outside the US, the 767 is slowly becoming less common.


As for Delta, the current 3 767-300s will be retired from passenger service and 2 will be used for the NFL season until the season concluded. Delta will also removed the older 767-300ER aircraft from service as they will be replaced with the A350 and A330neo. And just like United's 767-400ER, it's very young, has a lot of life in it, and will be very useful.
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EddieDude
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:01 pm

In the Americas, carriers like DL, UA, JJ and LA will continue to operate them for quite some time. Not sure about AA. AC's invention of Rouge seems to have given their 767s a new lease of life too.
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BA
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:09 pm

Stitch wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The Frankentanker is mix of -200 fuselage, -300IGW wing and center section, -400 cockpit with a bunch of engineering changes for the AAR mission. It is a mutt.


That was the RFP submitted for the 2008 KC-X competition.

The 767-2C, which is the civilian base for the KC-46A, is a 767-200ER airframe with a cargo door, reinforced floor and some of the hardware (wiring and plumbing, I believe) for the tanker fitted.


The 767-2C has a 2 meter stretch over the 767-200 airframe.
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BoeingGuy
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:32 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The Frankentanker is mix of -200 fuselage, -300IGW wing and center section, -400 cockpit with a bunch of engineering changes for the AAR mission. It is a mutt

GF


The KC-46 does not have the -400 flight deck. Some of the center aisle stand and overhead is from the -400, but the displays are from the 787. The 767-400 display system has no longer been available for many years from the supplier.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:33 pm

BA wrote:
Stitch wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The Frankentanker is mix of -200 fuselage, -300IGW wing and center section, -400 cockpit with a bunch of engineering changes for the AAR mission. It is a mutt.


That was the RFP submitted for the 2008 KC-X competition.

The 767-2C, which is the civilian base for the KC-46A, is a 767-200ER airframe with a cargo door, reinforced floor and some of the hardware (wiring and plumbing, I believe) for the tanker fitted.


The 767-2C has a 2 meter stretch over the 767-200 airframe.


Must have been expensive to re-engineer the thing.
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Stitch
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:37 pm

BA wrote:
Stitch wrote:
The 767-2C, which is the civilian base for the KC-46A, is a 767-200ER airframe with a cargo door, reinforced floor and some of the hardware (wiring and plumbing, I believe) for the tanker fitted.


The 767-2C has a 2 meter stretch over the 767-200 airframe.


That was an early belief by most of us, but we have subsequently confirmed that the 767-2C is identical in length to the 767-200 family airframes. The 2m of additional length is for the KC-46A and is accounted for by the refueling boom extending 2m beyond the back of the trailing edge of the vertical stabilizer in the stowed position.
 
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:48 pm

mcg wrote:
FWIW I seem to recall from the Amazon Prime Air thread that the number of 767's in service at the end of 2016 was the same as the number in service at the start of 2016. Pretty impressive for a dying breed.


Amazon along with some other freight companies have pushed up the value of 767-300ERs. A gently used 767-300ER is a hot commodity for freighter conversion.
 
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:47 pm

Taking a step back and looking at the 767 program with fresh eyes shows that it is actually flourishing and in its youth. What you say? It's a 1970s design, the 787 and A330 eat its lunch....

The 767 program at this time is a young military program with a minimum of 179 frames being delivered to the largest Air Force in the world. That right there is something it's closest competitor the KC-30A would love to say. On the side, freighter models are pumped out to tide any additional demand. The program stands the chance of replacing 340+ KC-135s and being used well past even some of the youngest members on this site's lifetimes. In addition, look at how many KC-135 frames are currently being used in the USAF in special programs whether they be E-3, E-8 or the multitude of RC platforms. While other aircraft like the 737 may replace those special designs, the 767 will be available, in production and certified in military usage. That right there puts it in the running. So, the program morphed and changed and somehow turned the sun setting into the sun rising.
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KLMatSJC
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:59 pm

Revelation wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
The wing is pre-CFD.


Actually, that's not exactly correct. Boeing's use of CFD goes back to the SST program of the 1960s and it definitely was used on the 767 program. The first reference shows how the primary use is wing design, and then for studying airflow around the nacelles and pylons. The computers available today are many orders of magnitude faster and cheaper than those available back then, but that doesn't mean the computers used to do design work for the 767 were useless.

Ref: http://calmarresearch.com/NF/STG/AGPS/m ... 3-3439.pdf
Ref: http://aero-comlab.stanford.edu/jameson/boeing.html

Self gloss: Some software I did as an intern in the 80s was used by Boeing in their manufacturing of the 767 wing.


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AAvgeek744
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:09 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Well, I don't think a passenger variant has been delivered in 3-4 years now. Boeing is still producing them, but only in a military variant.

Certainly for the late 1970s they were excellent aircraft. BUT: there was no CFD at the time, no FBW, no computerized drafting, no CFRP, no wide-chord fan blades. The day of the 767 is coming to an end.


I was on a tour of the factory in Everett about 5 years ago and there was a 763 on the line. I think it went to Uzbekistan or somewhere there about. Back then Boeing was still taking orders, but now it's just the F version.
 
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767333ER
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:17 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
The 767-400 display system has no longer been available for many years from the supplier.

The 767-400 seems to use the same displays as the 777 minus the systems displays, so by that logic the 777 should no longer be built with a 777 cockpit unless you are refers to something else.
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Stitch
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:45 pm

KLMatSJC wrote:
Revelation wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
The wing is pre-CFD.

Actually, that's not exactly correct. Boeing's use of CFD goes back to the SST program of the 1960s and it definitely was used on the 767 program.

Colorful Fun Diagrams?


Computational Fluid Dynamics
 
beechnut
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:06 pm

One of my favourites. Looks great, flies great, and the 2-3-2 seating while perhaps less efficient economically, is by far the most comfortable wide-body aircraft layout. It was a bird at equally at home on a transcon, an overseas flight, or even on high-density short-hauls like Air Canada's Rapidair service between YUL and YYZ where you'd see them during rush hour. I've had many great transatlantic and transpacific flights on them. With a bunch of them refurbished for Rouge, you'll see them for many years to come in Canada and abroad.

Beech
 
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KLMatSJC
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:33 pm

Stitch wrote:
KLMatSJC wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Actually, that's not exactly correct. Boeing's use of CFD goes back to the SST program of the 1960s and it definitely was used on the 767 program.

Colorful Fun Diagrams?


Computational Fluid Dynamics


Hahaha I know. I'm an aerospace engineering student, and that's what our professors and we call it.
A318/19/20/21/21N A332/3 A343/5 A388 B712 B722 B732/3/4/7/8/9/9ER B744/4M B752/3 B762ER/3/3ER/4ER B772/E/L/W B788 CRJ2/7/9 Q400 EMB-120 ERJ-135/140/145/145XR/175 DC-10-10 MD-82/83/88/90

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BoeingGuy
Posts: 6313
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:36 pm

767333ER wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
The 767-400 display system has no longer been available for many years from the supplier.

The 767-400 seems to use the same displays as the 777 minus the systems displays, so by that logic the 777 should no longer be built with a 777 cockpit unless you are refers to something else.


Dude, I know what I'm talking about. I'm highly familiar with the KC-46, 767-400, and 777 flight deck designs. Let's leave it at that.

Just because you saw a photo on the internet that makes you think the 777 and 767-400 displays kind of sort of look alike, doesn't make my "logic" wrong.

First, the 777 and 767-400 displays aren't even made by the same supplier. Second, there are significant differences in behind the screens architecture and system design. Also, there were 38 767-400s and over 1500 777s built.

Bottom line is that what I said in my previous post is correct. ;)
 
tjh8402
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Re: B767s - a dying breed?

Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:50 am

xdlx wrote:
How about doing what they did with 737 series? An updated 767 700/800/900 series based on the 2/3/400 series with newer technology and updated economics.


Look up the MoM threads on here. General consensus is that a 767 Max would not be competitive.
CX747 wrote:
Taking a step back and looking at the 767 program with fresh eyes shows that it is actually flourishing and in its youth. What you say? It's a 1970s design, the 787 and A330 eat its lunch....

The 767 program at this time is a young military program with a minimum of 179 frames being delivered to the largest Air Force in the world. That right there is something it's closest competitor the KC-30A would love to say. On the side, freighter models are pumped out to tide any additional demand. The program stands the chance of replacing 340+ KC-135s and being used well past even some of the youngest members on this site's lifetimes. In addition, look at how many KC-135 frames are currently being used in the USAF in special programs whether they be E-3, E-8 or the multitude of RC platforms. While other aircraft like the 737 may replace those special designs, the 767 will be available, in production and certified in military usage. That right there puts it in the running. So, the program morphed and changed and somehow turned the sun setting into the sun rising.


The 767/KC-46 appears to be the leading candidate to replace the E-4, E-6, and VC-32.

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