ZeeZoo
Posts: 284
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:30 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Thu May 18, 2017 7:16 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
ZeeZoo wrote:
did you get notified when I quoted GDB?

yep

Well then that's just silly and a fault of the board rather than mine. :)
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12579
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Thu May 18, 2017 8:15 pm

ZeeZoo wrote:
Well then that's just silly and a fault of the board rather than mine. :)

If you took five seconds to learn how to accurately USE the quote feature, that wouldn't happen. The board is not to blame for your ignorance.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
ZeeZoo
Posts: 284
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:30 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Thu May 18, 2017 9:20 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
ZeeZoo wrote:
Well then that's just silly and a fault of the board rather than mine. :)

If you took five seconds to learn how to accurately USE the quote feature, that wouldn't happen. The board is not to blame for your ignorance.

If you took five seconds to engage your brain and USE some common sense, you would have realised I directly quoted GDB and did not directly quote you. I am not to be blamed for your "ignorance" and lack of ability to think critically.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12579
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Thu May 18, 2017 9:29 pm

ZeeZoo wrote:
If you took five seconds to engage your brain and USE some common sense, you would have realised I directly quoted GDB and did not directly quote you. I am not to be blamed for your "ignorance" and lack of ability to think critically.

You didn't "directly quote GDB"... you quoted multiple different people. You included multiple people, that you could've omitted. You triggered notifications for multiple people.

What part of that are you not understanding?

Then want to act pissy when you got an answer, to an open-ended question, from one of the multiple people that you addressed?
So, if you're going to be upset with anyone, make it yourself. No one, or no thing, else is responsible for your screwup.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
polaris
Posts: 1151
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2000 7:03 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Thu May 18, 2017 9:45 pm

Simple answer: Concorde service was Concorde Class. It was above First Class.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12579
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Thu May 18, 2017 10:03 pm

polaris wrote:
Simple answer: Concorde service was Concorde Class. It was above First Class.

The funny thing is, until the mid-1980s, it was often priced lower.

BA conducted a survey and found that many routine SSC pax were on expense accounts, and thus thought that they were paying far more than they actually were.... so they adjusted the price (up!) accordingly! :bigthumbsup:
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
TejD
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu May 18, 2017 10:00 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Thu May 18, 2017 10:06 pm

GDB wrote:
ZeeZoo wrote:
GDB wrote:

I cannot speak fpr AF, however that Director of BA Engineering was seen as an enemy, on the other hand, no one in Engineering, most of who were not involved in Concorde were fans either.

Moving the schedule was seen as silly at the time, however Marketing could have pushed back on it.

But the extra costs were not all fiction and not even from AF or Airbus either, a big chunk of them that emerged in early 2003, was from the FAA. Extra checks of fuel tanks on ageing aircraft, part of the ongoing TWA800 fallout. It mattered not to them that we had in fact as part of the tank liner mods done just that. They had to be again, their way, not that this is so unusual, aviation is heavily regulated after all.

Draining the aircraft was not 'vandalism' but a necessity for long term museum storage, the aircraft were done at the museums then they arrived, not later.

Not mentioned in that article, was a project by BA to replace the actuators that controlled the secondary nozzles, in 1997 on an air-test one had leaked causing the nozzle to dip creating drag, not enough on a New York route to be a problem but an issue for a BGI one, being longer and with far fewer diversion airfields. Prior to any aircraft doing a BGI, extra checks on this system were carried out, to ensure they had no leaks, being actuated one at a time in the hangar, the 'waahhh' sound being very distinct.

Longer term new controls for the actuators were seen as the answer. In 2002 one aircraft was fitted with them, sourced by a nameless OEM (though you might also find their name on the controls for your central heating). Problem was, these new components literally could not stand the heat, so the originals were put back in and the extra checks for each BGI assigned aircraft. A few million £ for nothing, you did not have to be McDonald (or 'Quarter Pounder' as was unaffectionally known), to think 'is this how it's going to be all the time?')

Prior to this, late 1990's, we needed to replace the Air Intake Control Units, 8 per aircraft, which as the name suggests managed the two intake ramps vital for supersonic flight, engines don't like air coming in at 1350 mph! These 1970's digital computers (each about the size of a carton of 200 cigarettes), a product of BAC's Guided Weapons Division, were becoming less reliable.

Several options, install much lighter, smaller, modern ones, however certifying them would lose an aircraft from service for at least 6 months, there was, after all, no spare aircraft outside of the two fleets to use (which is really why FAA and Boeing brought that TU-144 back in the late 1990's for research, they asked us first).
Or you could take an aircraft out of service for good, it's A.I.C.U.'s being just part of the spares haul, which is worse than the first option.
What was done was to get new 'old' A.I.C.U. boards made, just when the original OEM's were part of mergers going on that created BAE Systems, this involved (not for the first time) calling people out of retirement. It worked but was costly and took a lot longer than planned.

It is true that we lost staff just when we needed them in early 2002.

I have it on good authority that in late 2002/early 2003, BA's forward bookings for both Concorde and First Class took a big hit, seen as delayed from 9/11, the Iraq war build up, the Enron and Worldcom scandals (causing companies to cut down on high end travel, even those with no connections to those two), BA at this time axed First Class from about half a dozen routes such was the drop, however unlike operating Concorde, rectifying that when things picked up was both easier and indeed, possible.
AF's loads were bad, we both had a 'bounce' when re-entering service but AF's in particular had dipped, AF also resumed a limited charter operation (just CDG-CDG).

So while I do recognise quite a bit in the article, for me anyway it does smack of 2 + 2 = 5. Seeing at close hand what went on, the article relies too much on 'French bashing', it was them who drove the return to flight effort, since the wing and the fuel tanks there were 'their' part of the aircraft. Really, it was the 9/11 attacks that in the end proved the tipping point, for the effects on both airlines not just their SST fleets.
Mentioning Branson as anything other than a BS merchant when it comes to Concorde undermines too, he carried on blabbering even after the regulators told him it wasn't going to happen.

Thank you so much!

Have you ever thought about writing a memoir, either creating a website or maybe installments on here? Would be incredibly valuable.


Thanks but I still work for BA. However, that site http://www.concordesst.com I can recommend. I was in daily e-mail contact with the webmaster from 2001-2003, he was seen as trusted, fair and informed anyway. I wasn't the only one and towards the end he became an unofficial part of the BA Concorde team, though not a BA employee.

I was given the task after the service ended, of sorting the large room of Concorde archives, logs, manuals, stuff of all kinds, we transferred the greater part of it to Brooklands, as part of the BA help of G-BBDG's re-build, which the concordesst.com webmaster was a key part of. For instance, it was handy when I found the original BA paint scheme drawings for the original BA livery, as used by BA paint shop. So DG can represent that original livery accurately.

Can I ask, with regards to the Concorde, was the Concorde B - http://www.heritageconcorde.com/concorde-b - a real possibility at all?
 
GDB
Posts: 13254
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Thu May 18, 2017 10:24 pm

Here's that 1999 round the world charter, (the air to airs are from 1997 after G-BOAF got the first new livery paint job);

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB-smagT0O4
 
Bald1983
Posts: 622
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Thu May 18, 2017 11:33 pm

cloudboy wrote:
Ok, I know the seats were sold as first class, but in size they were essentially just economy plus sized seats in a 2-2 configuration. Why did they not do like they do on CRJs and Embraers and do a 1-2 configuration? Did those passengers spending that money for Concorde not care abut the product that much? And if they had cone to a 1-2 or 2-1 configuration, do you think it would have made it more profitable?


The Concorde was a fuel guzzling money losing proposition to begin with. Going two - one three abreast would have reduced the seats by 1/4. It would have lost money even more. The seats were already expensive. Question would people pay significantly more?
 
cloudboy
Topic Author
Posts: 1123
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:38 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Fri May 19, 2017 12:59 am

Bald1983 wrote:
cloudboy wrote:
Ok, I know the seats were sold as first class, but in size they were essentially just economy plus sized seats in a 2-2 configuration. Why did they not do like they do on CRJs and Embraers and do a 1-2 configuration? Did those passengers spending that money for Concorde not care abut the product that much? And if they had cone to a 1-2 or 2-1 configuration, do you think it would have made it more profitable?


The Concorde was a fuel guzzling money losing proposition to begin with. Going two - one three abreast would have reduced the seats by 1/4. It would have lost money even more. The seats were already expensive. Question would people pay significantly more?


Was Concorde always full to the end, then? I got the impression from much of what I read that demand was simply not there - and I question whether it was a problem of demand or just a problem of them trying to target a specific audience that was too tough? Could they have opened up new markets if they weren't trying to be so fancy and expensive?
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
Bald1983
Posts: 622
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Fri May 19, 2017 1:13 am

cloudboy wrote:
Bald1983 wrote:
cloudboy wrote:
Ok, I know the seats were sold as first class, but in size they were essentially just economy plus sized seats in a 2-2 configuration. Why did they not do like they do on CRJs and Embraers and do a 1-2 configuration? Did those passengers spending that money for Concorde not care abut the product that much? And if they had cone to a 1-2 or 2-1 configuration, do you think it would have made it more profitable?


The Concorde was a fuel guzzling money losing proposition to begin with. Going two - one three abreast would have reduced the seats by 1/4. It would have lost money even more. The seats were already expensive. Question would people pay significantly more?


Was Concorde always full to the end, then? I got the impression from much of what I read that demand was simply not there - and I question whether it was a problem of demand or just a problem of them trying to target a specific audience that was too tough? Could they have opened up new markets if they weren't trying to be so fancy and expensive?


The Concorde was a technological marvel but they were fuel hogs and could not make money. If they were not full they bled money even faster. I do not know if it was always full.
 
cpd
Posts: 6026
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Fri May 19, 2017 1:27 am

Can we have some actual financial figures per year rather than just blanket statements without numbers to back them?
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26430
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Fri May 19, 2017 2:02 am

cloudboy wrote:
Was Concorde always full to the end, then? I got the impression from much of what I read that demand was simply not there - and I question whether it was a problem of demand or just a problem of them trying to target a specific audience that was too tough?


I've heard that when the Towers went down, they took like half of Concorde's clientele on BA with them. Don't know if that is apocryphal or not.
 
tmu101
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:04 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Fri May 19, 2017 2:14 am

I love reading all the stories of peoples' experiences on Concorde. Sadly never got to fly on it - grr.

Slightly off topic anyone here ever lucky enough to fly on the TU-144? Would love to read some stories about that as well.
 
uclax
Posts: 170
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 12:16 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Fri May 19, 2017 2:47 am

Even though it was all one class, I've heard that VVIP's were often seated in the forward cabin and would board just before pushback and leave the plane first upon landing, making the first 10 rows, separated by a lav (and I think a galley and curtain) from the rest of the cabin, slightly more "exclusive."
...those who wait for the Lord�s help...rise up as if they had eagles� wings Isaiah 40:31
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12579
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Fri May 19, 2017 4:08 am

TejD wrote:
Can I ask, with regards to the Concorde, was the Concorde B - http://www.heritageconcorde.com/concorde-b - a real possibility at all?

It was possible, but the production ended beforehand.

What's funny, is that by the time of the retirement, BA Concorde Engineering was such a precise science that they'd coaxed nearly the performance out of their original birds as was originally advertised by the Concorde-B proposal! LHR-BGI is testament to that, and all the physical requirements the individual aircraft had to go through (in hangar testing) before being allowed to operate that run (with seats blocked, though).


Stitch wrote:
I've heard that when the Towers went down, they took like half of Concorde's clientele on BA with them. Don't know if that is apocryphal or not.

Heard the same. People who flew the bird more than once a month, many of them killed. :(

It was on the same day where the first fully-laden (with crew) test flight after the crash, was being run out of LHR. Had to turn back.



tmu101 wrote:
Slightly off topic anyone here ever lucky enough to fly on the TU-144?

Much harder to find, considering that it only performed 55 commercial flights, in its entire history. :(

Anyone else would've had to been a Soviet pilot/test crew, or worked with NASA.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
tmu101
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:04 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Fri May 19, 2017 5:03 am

tmu101 wrote:
Slightly off topic anyone here ever lucky enough to fly on the TU-144?

Much harder to find, considering that it only performed 55 commercial flights, in its entire history. :(

Anyone else would've had to been a Soviet pilot/test crew, or worked with NASA.[/quote]

I figured it was a long shot considering how few passenger flights there were

Anyone here know anyone who has ever flown on it on one of those passenger flights?
 
ZeeZoo
Posts: 284
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:30 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Fri May 19, 2017 8:42 am

LAX772LR wrote:
ZeeZoo wrote:
If you took five seconds to engage your brain and USE some common sense, you would have realised I directly quoted GDB and did not directly quote you. I am not to be blamed for your "ignorance" and lack of ability to think critically.

You didn't "directly quote GDB"... you quoted multiple different people. You included multiple people, that you could've omitted. You triggered notifications for multiple people.

What part of that are you not understanding?

Then want to act pissy when you got an answer, to an open-ended question, from one of the multiple people that you addressed?
So, if you're going to be upset with anyone, make it yourself. No one, or no thing, else is responsible for your screwup.

Well then, I apologise because it does seem it notifies people, unnecessarily, that you haven't directly quoted.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12579
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Fri May 19, 2017 9:04 am

ZeeZoo wrote:
Well then, I apologise because it does seem it notifies people, unnecessarily, that you haven't directly quoted.

Dude, one more time:
There is no... such... thing... as... "direct quote."

The system will notify ALL PEOPLE that you include in a quote box; as it's properly designed to do.

If you (still) haven't figured out HOW to take someone out of a quote, whom you don't want notified-- then just ask!
Heck send a PM, I'll happily teach you, if it'll get you to pipe down about this.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Fri May 19, 2017 9:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12579
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Fri May 19, 2017 9:12 am

tmu101 wrote:
Anyone here know anyone who has ever flown on it on one of those passenger flights?

Didn't one of the "Canuck" users (TDSCanuck?) have some connection to it? Or am I imagining that?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
GDB
Posts: 13254
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Fri May 19, 2017 8:02 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
TejD wrote:
Can I ask, with regards to the Concorde, was the Concorde B - http://www.heritageconcorde.com/concorde-b - a real possibility at all?

It was possible, but the production ended beforehand.

What's funny, is that by the time of the retirement, BA Concorde Engineering was such a precise science that they'd coaxed nearly the performance out of their original birds as was originally advertised by the Concorde-B proposal! LHR-BGI is testament to that, and all the physical requirements the individual aircraft had to go through (in hangar testing) before being allowed to operate that run (with seats blocked, though).


Stitch wrote:
I've heard that when the Towers went down, they took like half of Concorde's clientele on BA with them. Don't know if that is apocryphal or not.

Heard the same. People who flew the bird more than once a month, many of them killed. :(

It was on the same day where the first fully-laden (with crew) test flight after the crash, was being run out of LHR. Had to turn back.



tmu101 wrote:
Slightly off topic anyone here ever lucky enough to fly on the TU-144?

Much harder to find, considering that it only performed 55 commercial flights, in its entire history. :(

Anyone else would've had to been a Soviet pilot/test crew, or worked with NASA.


That crew filled flight that had to turn back, is not the case. It was always intended to be a LHR-LHR but for 3.5 hrs, to retrain crews, flight and cabin, test new features like the seats and menu, the longer flight meant at turn back at 30W simulating the time of a LHR-JFK for training.
Five of these flights were planned, 3 being LHR-LHR, the last 2 being LHR-JFK, JFK-LHR, in one day! All the 'pax' were BA Concorde staff, many from Engineering but also those involved in cabin development for example. I sat next to a guy from there because I was on the first one.

Originally scheduled for 28th Aug 2001, it was moved back to 11th Sep. With a BA001 departure time, early morning in NY.
98 of us, as two rear seats had been replaced by test equipment which would be removed when the aircraft (G-BOAF) entered commercial service.
My second Concorde flight, the first being from being at BA but prior to joining Concorde, in November 1993. G-BOAF then too.
IAD-LHR. BA and US Airways were in alliance and staff were offered a heavily discounted package that started with LHR-LAX in Club, 5 flights on US Airways, finishing with IAD with Concorde back home. You could see why the thrice weekly LHR-IAD was ended a year later, not very full, a hell of an experience though.

Forward to 2001, another great experience, we used the Concorde room, were asked to bring hand luggage, be pax.
The head of Engineering gave us a rousing pep speech before we boarded, too right, after AF4590 most of us thought that was the end. This stayed with us for months.
However, after landing, we heard chatter as we passed ramp workers about 'a plane crashing into the World Trade Centre'. As planned, I went back to the hangar, now off shift, in our crew room was a TV, you know what was on.

This did delay the others of these 'Operational Assessment Flights', the last two, the JFK and back in a day, was reserved as a special thanks for those who had laboured in the fuel tanks as part of the mod programme. So enclosed, BA recruited across Engineering for smaller people, women in particular, not many of them in the hangar 16 years ago as compared to now, though some were found.
This flight took place late October.

True about the hit Concorde took on 9/11, I recall one firm that had been on the floors struck and virtually wiped out, I had seen the name before, Cantor Fitzgerald. In those days we took a look at the pax list on the BA system then more accessible internally, if we had a turn back, like we did in 1998 and Rupert Murdoch was on board!
Cantor Fitzgerald was a company name you saw often on those lists.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1270
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Tue May 23, 2017 4:28 pm

deltacto wrote:
superjeff wrote:
SFOATLFlyer wrote:
The Concorde was not terribly comfortable. I flew two JFK-LHR-JFK round trips, and as many have indicated it was built for speed. Before I ever flew it I saw it a few times when it operated into DFW using terminal 4E.. I was surprised that it looked rather small when parked next to Delta 727s.


Wrong terminal and wrong 727's next door. Braniff flew interchange services 3x weekly with BA and 3x weekly with AF over IAD. The Concorde operated out of then terminal 2W (now terminal B), which was the Braniff terminal. Braniff was the only U.S. carrier ever to operate Concorde, which it did between DFW and IAD using its own crews.



In the summer of 1988 British Airways operated Concorde LHR-IAD-DFW twice a week .... at the time BA operated out of Terminal 4E

see reply #5 ... "Concorde Routes?"
viewtopic.php?t=324083

http://www.concordesst.com/history/80s.html (scroll down to 1988)

At the time I lived just south of DFW and I saw Concorde several times .... if I recall correctly Concorde arrived on Wednesday and Sunday afternoons ... spent the night ... and departed Monday and Thursday mornings


Sorry, you're wrong. BA never operated Concorde into DFW on their own. The only BA Concorde service was the Braniff interchange, which operated into the Braniff terminal. Braniff ceased operations in May, 1982. British Airways itself didn't serve DFW until they acquired British Caledonian. They started serving DFW with ex-BR DC10's, then eventually switched to 747's which they currently operate. But the Concordes operated LHR-IAD-DFW using a Braniff crew south of Dulles (and a U.S. registration taped over the British one.

Jeff
 
User avatar
deltacto
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:49 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Tue May 23, 2017 5:38 pm

deltacto wrote:
In the summer of 1988 British Airways operated Concorde LHR-IAD-DFW twice a week .... at the time BA operated out of Terminal 4E

see reply #5 ... "Concorde Routes?"
viewtopic.php?t=324083

http://www.concordesst.com/history/80s.html (scroll down to 1988)


superjeff wrote:
Sorry, you're wrong. BA never operated Concorde into DFW on their own. The only BA Concorde service was the Braniff interchange, which operated into the Braniff terminal. Braniff ceased operations in May, 1982. British Airways itself didn't serve DFW until they acquired British Caledonian. They started serving DFW with ex-BR DC10's, then eventually switched to 747's which they currently operate. But the Concordes operated LHR-IAD-DFW using a Braniff crew south of Dulles (and a U.S. registration taped over the British one.

Jeff


Pics of BA Concorde at DFW 1988 .... with Delta ground equipment

http://jamspeaks.blogspot.com/2006/08/b ... corde.html
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26430
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Tue May 23, 2017 5:46 pm

deltacto wrote:
Pics of BA Concorde at DFW 1988 .... with Delta ground equipment.


The airframe was a British Airways Concorde, but the flight was not operated by British Airways. It was operated by Braniff International with Braniff staff at the controls and working the cabin and the tickets were issued on Braniff's stock, not BA's. Very simplified, Braniff took ownership of the airframe for the IAD-DFW and DFW-IAD flights and it was temporarily re-registered with a USA "N" number to reflect it being operated by a US carrier.

From http://www.braniffpages.com/concorde.html

Braniff operated both British and French Concordes to Washington D.C. and New York from D/FW under Braniff control and Braniff pilots. British Airways and Air France pilots would fly the transatlantic portion of the flight to London and Paris, or from London and Paris to New York or Washington D.C. where Braniff pilots would again gain control for the flight to Dallas/Fort Worth Airport.

This was flown by Concorde 212, G-BOAE. In 1979, Braniff leased both British Airways and Air France Concordes from those two airlines. Technically, Braniff owned the Concorde for 1 1/2 years, but the planes were still insured by BA and AF, so a British or French flight crew member would have to supervise the domestic leg to make the insurance companies happy. It was re-registered in 1979 to N94AE for US service. (The FAA requires an "N" number on all U.S. planes flying DOMESTIC revenue flights.) When this plane traveled to London, England from New York JFK, a sticker was removed revealing the "G-" designation. So it flew to England as G-N94AE. It was re-registered back to G-BOAE in England after cancellation of Braniff service in June 1980.
 
vc10
Posts: 1412
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Tue May 23, 2017 6:33 pm

"Stitch" and " NE" ------ I think you might be both correct, as although Braniff did operate Concorde as you describe , I seem to remember that BA did operate to Dallas in about 1988 and it was something to do with the take over of British Caledonian by BA.
Also I can confirm that other than that, BA did operate to Dallas even though it was the first stop in a around the world charter . It was 30- 9- 95
 
SFOATLFlyer
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 9:51 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Tue May 23, 2017 6:43 pm

superjeff wrote:
deltacto wrote:
superjeff wrote:

Wrong terminal and wrong 727's next door. Braniff flew interchange services 3x weekly with BA and 3x weekly with AF over IAD. The Concorde operated out of then terminal 2W (now terminal B), which was the Braniff terminal. Braniff was the only U.S. carrier ever to operate Concorde, which it did between DFW and IAD using its own crews.



In the summer of 1988 British Airways operated Concorde LHR-IAD-DFW twice a week .... at the time BA operated out of Terminal 4E

see reply #5 ... "Concorde Routes?"
viewtopic.php?t=324083

http://www.concordesst.com/history/80s.html (scroll down to 1988)

At the time I lived just south of DFW and I saw Concorde several times .... if I recall correctly Concorde arrived on Wednesday and Sunday afternoons ... spent the night ... and departed Monday and Thursday mornings


Sorry, you're wrong. BA never operated Concorde into DFW on their own. The only BA Concorde service was the Braniff interchange, which operated into the Braniff terminal. Braniff ceased operations in May, 1982. British Airways itself didn't serve DFW until they acquired British Caledonian. They started serving DFW with ex-BR DC10's, then eventually switched to 747's which they currently operate. But the Concordes operated LHR-IAD-DFW using a Braniff crew south of Dulles (and a U.S. registration taped over the British one.

Jeff


BA absolutely flew the Concorde into DFW years after BN went under. As commented, they operated out of 4E, as did BCal. You are wrong.
 
SFOATLFlyer
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 9:51 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Tue May 23, 2017 6:50 pm

deltacto wrote:
deltacto wrote:
In the summer of 1988 British Airways operated Concorde LHR-IAD-DFW twice a week .... at the time BA operated out of Terminal 4E

see reply #5 ... "Concorde Routes?"
viewtopic.php?t=324083

http://www.concordesst.com/history/80s.html (scroll down to 1988)


superjeff wrote:
Sorry, you're wrong. BA never operated Concorde into DFW on their own. The only BA Concorde service was the Braniff interchange, which operated into the Braniff terminal. Braniff ceased operations in May, 1982. British Airways itself didn't serve DFW until they acquired British Caledonian. They started serving DFW with ex-BR DC10's, then eventually switched to 747's which they currently operate. But the Concordes operated LHR-IAD-DFW using a Braniff crew south of Dulles (and a U.S. registration taped over the British one.

Jeff


Pics of BA Concorde at DFW 1988 .... with Delta ground equipment

http://jamspeaks.blogspot.com/2006/08/b ... corde.html


IIRC, the customs in 4E at the time ws in the high 20's gates on the south side of the terminal. I recall BCal, the BA D10's and the SSC. My aforementioned comment was when parked next to a Delta 72S showed it wasn't nearly as large as some people expected. LOUD too. I lived a couple miles north of DFW and it wasn't hard to know when that baby took off.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1270
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Fri May 26, 2017 6:31 pm

There were customs facilities in three terminals back in the day. What is now A (American) near what is now A21, in what is now E (high end of the former Delta terminal, used by Delta when they served FRA, and Aeromexico, and, in what is now B, at the high end, which was used by British Calendonian, British Airways, Korean, and Military Charters as recently as a few years ago. British Airways (also Air France, which flew Concorde as well) never flew Concorde into DFW on their own, only on the Braniff Interchange, and that was a domestic flight. from and to IAD.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1270
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Fri May 26, 2017 6:32 pm

SFOATLFlyer wrote:
superjeff wrote:
deltacto wrote:


In the summer of 1988 British Airways operated Concorde LHR-IAD-DFW twice a week .... at the time BA operated out of Terminal 4E

see reply #5 ... "Concorde Routes?"
viewtopic.php?t=324083

http://www.concordesst.com/history/80s.html (scroll down to 1988)

At the time I lived just south of DFW and I saw Concorde several times .... if I recall correctly Concorde arrived on Wednesday and Sunday afternoons ... spent the night ... and departed Monday and Thursday mornings


Sorry, you're wrong. BA never operated Concorde into DFW on their own. The only BA Concorde service was the Braniff interchange, which operated into the Braniff terminal. Braniff ceased operations in May, 1982. British Airways itself didn't serve DFW until they acquired British Caledonian. They started serving DFW with ex-BR DC10's, then eventually switched to 747's which they currently operate. But the Concordes operated LHR-IAD-DFW using a Braniff crew south of Dulles (and a U.S. registration taped over the British one.

Jeff


BA absolutely flew the Concorde into DFW years after BN went under. As commented, they operated out of 4E, as did BCal. You are wrong.


Perhaps a one off charter (and I doubt that as well). I think you are the one who is wrong here.
 
SFOATLFlyer
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 9:51 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Fri May 26, 2017 8:14 pm

superjeff wrote:
SFOATLFlyer wrote:
superjeff wrote:

Sorry, you're wrong. BA never operated Concorde into DFW on their own. The only BA Concorde service was the Braniff interchange, which operated into the Braniff terminal. Braniff ceased operations in May, 1982. British Airways itself didn't serve DFW until they acquired British Caledonian. They started serving DFW with ex-BR DC10's, then eventually switched to 747's which they currently operate. But the Concordes operated LHR-IAD-DFW using a Braniff crew south of Dulles (and a U.S. registration taped over the British one.

Jeff


BA absolutely flew the Concorde into DFW years after BN went under. As commented, they operated out of 4E, as did BCal. You are wrong.


Perhaps a one off charter (and I doubt that as well). I think you are the one who is wrong here.


I lived there in 1988. Did you? I flew out of terminal 4E weekly. Did you? It operated 2x weekly DFW-IAD-LHR. I really don't care if you believe me, because I know it was there, and it was not a one off.
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 866
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Fri May 26, 2017 9:02 pm

You're both kinda right.

BA never regularly operated Concorde to DFW.
Braniff was the technically the airline for the IAD-DFW-IFD portion of the LHR-IAD-DFW-IAD-LHR with the reg#s being adapted and with a Braniff crew. However the aircraft remained in BA colours (No Concorde was ever painted in Braniff colours).
Ditto AF/Braniff exchange CDG services. These ended in early 80's.

BA very briefly substituted it's DC10 service with Concorde for a few short weeks in 1988 after US deregulation. July 1st to August 25 1988 BA188/189.
 
SFOATLFlyer
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 9:51 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Fri May 26, 2017 9:32 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
You're both kinda right.

BA never regularly operated Concorde to DFW.
Braniff was the technically the airline for the IAD-DFW-IFD portion of the LHR-IAD-DFW-IAD-LHR with the reg#s being adapted and with a Braniff crew. However the aircraft remained in BA colours (No Concorde was ever painted in Braniff colours).
Ditto AF/Braniff exchange CDG services. These ended in early 80's.

BA very briefly substituted it's DC10 service with Concorde for a few short weeks in 1988 after US deregulation. July 1st to August 25 1988 BA188/189.


I'll buy this. The claim it didn't happen I knew was untrue, and I do recall it was relatively short-lived scheduled service, and not a one off.
 
SaschaYHZ
Posts: 266
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:41 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Fri May 26, 2017 10:04 pm

I remember seeing a plane flying in the same direction as us.....looking like it was flying backwards....very odd indeed.
 
TigerFlyer
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:51 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Fri May 26, 2017 10:22 pm

A 1-2 configuration with extra pitch might have made sense for a few rows in front. Considering Concorde's clientele there were clearly a few for whom cost was truely no object. The plane rarely went out full, so it may have been possible to eek out a few dollars in incremental revenue. In the end, I doubt it would have made much of a difference.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1270
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Tue May 30, 2017 1:34 pm

SFOATLFlyer wrote:
superjeff wrote:
SFOATLFlyer wrote:

BA absolutely flew the Concorde into DFW years after BN went under. As commented, they operated out of 4E, as did BCal. You are wrong.


Perhaps a one off charter (and I doubt that as well). I think you are the one who is wrong here.


I lived there in 1988. Did you? I flew out of terminal 4E weekly. Did you? It operated 2x weekly DFW-IAD-LHR. I really don't care if you believe me, because I know it was there, and it was not a one off.


Actually, I did. In the DFW area since 1972. Worked for Braniff 1972-1977. I can find nothing anywhere on the internet (except your comments) supporting the idea of a regular BA Concorde service into DFW after Braniff shut down and until BA took over the old British Caledonia (not sure what the date on that was), but cannot remember BA ever flying anything into DFW except DC10's (ex-BR), 747's, and, more recently, 777's.

Jeff
 
User avatar
ojjunior
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:31 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Tue May 30, 2017 3:17 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
The whole plane was first class.

It's not even closer to 1st class in terms of comfort but for a 3 hours flight time US-Europe in average it's fine.
Oh yes,the ticket price was always 1st class based...
ImageImageImage

More pics:
https://goo.gl/photos/4K8DLdhuoL4qTroQ9
 
User avatar
fbgdavidson
Posts: 3863
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 6:25 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Tue May 30, 2017 4:21 pm

cloudboy wrote:
Was Concorde always full to the end, then? I got the impression from much of what I read that demand was simply not there - and I question whether it was a problem of demand or just a problem of them trying to target a specific audience that was too tough? Could they have opened up new markets if they weren't trying to be so fancy and expensive?


Well it depends on the flights and turns.

One thing to note was Concorde didn't need to be full, or close to full to make money. From what I read quite a few years ago it only need about 35-40 full fare passengers per flight to break even. BA regularly did that particularly on the more popular BA001 which for most its life left LHR at 10.30am and got into JFK at around 9am. The BA004 that got into LHR last flight of the day was popular for the London based day turnarounds which was typically about 10%-15% of people. The BA002 left JFK pretty early so had appeal there. I believe the BA003 which was traditionally an evening departure to JFK was the lightly loaded flight of the day.

FWIW, I flew it in 2002, so before the announcement was made but almost a year after the return to service on BA001 and it was full bar maybe one empty seat.
"My first job was selling doors, door to door, that's a tough job innit" - Bill Bailey
 
SFOATLFlyer
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 9:51 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Tue May 30, 2017 8:19 pm

superjeff wrote:
SFOATLFlyer wrote:
superjeff wrote:

Perhaps a one off charter (and I doubt that as well). I think you are the one who is wrong here.


I lived there in 1988. Did you? I flew out of terminal 4E weekly. Did you? It operated 2x weekly DFW-IAD-LHR. I really don't care if you believe me, because I know it was there, and it was not a one off.


Actually, I did. In the DFW area since 1972. Worked for Braniff 1972-1977. I can find nothing anywhere on the internet (except your comments) supporting the idea of a regular BA Concorde service into DFW after Braniff shut down and until BA took over the old British Caledonia (not sure what the date on that was), but cannot remember BA ever flying anything into DFW except DC10's (ex-BR), 747's, and, more recently, 777's.

Jeff


As the reply #131 states, it was operated albeit briefly. And definitely out of 4E.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1270
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:32 pm

SFOATLFlyer wrote:
superjeff wrote:
SFOATLFlyer wrote:

I lived there in 1988. Did you? I flew out of terminal 4E weekly. Did you? It operated 2x weekly DFW-IAD-LHR. I really don't care if you believe me, because I know it was there, and it was not a one off.


Actually, I did. In the DFW area since 1972. Worked for Braniff 1972-1977. I can find nothing anywhere on the internet (except your comments) supporting the idea of a regular BA Concorde service into DFW after Braniff shut down and until BA took over the old British Caledonia (not sure what the date on that was), but cannot remember BA ever flying anything into DFW except DC10's (ex-BR), 747's, and, more recently, 777's.

Jeff


As the reply #131 states, it was operated albeit briefly. And definitely out of 4E.


Without getting into an argument, that would agree with my original comments: It might have been a one-off. . . .

Sounds like it was an odd week or so, and it would have to have stopped for fuel - IAD would be okay, but BA would not have had local traffic rights.
 
SFOATLFlyer
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 9:51 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:38 pm

superjeff wrote:
SFOATLFlyer wrote:
superjeff wrote:

Actually, I did. In the DFW area since 1972. Worked for Braniff 1972-1977. I can find nothing anywhere on the internet (except your comments) supporting the idea of a regular BA Concorde service into DFW after Braniff shut down and until BA took over the old British Caledonia (not sure what the date on that was), but cannot remember BA ever flying anything into DFW except DC10's (ex-BR), 747's, and, more recently, 777's.

Jeff


As the reply #131 states, it was operated albeit briefly. And definitely out of 4E.


Without getting into an argument, that would agree with my original comments: It might have been a one-off. . . .

Sounds like it was an odd week or so, and it would have to have stopped for fuel - IAD would be okay, but BA would not have had local traffic rights.


Yeah it did DFW-IAD-LHR. I seriously doubt it has traffic rights. I'd seen in another post was this was implemented as BA was transitioning out of the DC10. I'd not though about that, I always assumed it was extra service.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1270
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:09 pm

SFOATLFlyer wrote:
superjeff wrote:
SFOATLFlyer wrote:

As the reply #131 states, it was operated albeit briefly. And definitely out of 4E.


Without getting into an argument, that would agree with my original comments: It might have been a one-off. . . .

Sounds like it was an odd week or so, and it would have to have stopped for fuel - IAD would be okay, but BA would not have had local traffic rights.


Yeah it did DFW-IAD-LHR. I seriously doubt it has traffic rights. I'd seen in another post was this was implemented as BA was transitioning out of the DC10. I'd not though about that, I always assumed it was extra service.



You learn something every day. But definitely no traffic rights as it would be cabotage, and against US law. . . .
 
c933103
Posts: 3850
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:20 pm

ojjunior wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
The whole plane was first class.

It's not even closer to 1st class in terms of comfort but for a 3 hours flight time US-Europe in average it's fine.
Oh yes,the ticket price was always 1st class based...
ImageImageImage

More pics:
https://goo.gl/photos/4K8DLdhuoL4qTroQ9


If you consider its flight time of about 3 hours... then that is also the flight time that you would get domestic first or business first class product... which are actually rather similar to these...
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
airman99o
Posts: 895
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 1999 4:15 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:39 pm

Im my opinion, what Supersonic Service offered compared to now day top notch Travel on the worlds best airlines, Gets sucked in the variable flow intake of the Olympus Engines and burnt to a crisp through the afterburner....... Yes it was Speedy but hell you look at some of those videos, That service for such a "short" flight was mind blowing!
Safety is Everyones Responsibility.
 
Woofbite
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:02 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:49 pm

The BA flight attendant on a LHR-JFK I was on told me it was a same day turn-around. Also, as far as seat comfort, aside from take off, landing and meal service, everyone seemed to be roaming around the cabin and visiting the cockpit - which you could do in those days.

One of my flights we had to go around at JFK due to aircraft ahead not clearing the runway soon enough.




fbgdavidson wrote:
airzim wrote:
Out of curiosity, what were the crew parings for Concorde crews? Did they fly 1 trip, layover in NYC and return the next day to London/Paris? Given the short flight times, could easily do a RT in 1 day, but I suspect they didn't.


Yes, an overnight in NYC. BA have the same arrangement for non-supersonic crews today on JFK/Mid-Atlantic
 
SFOATLFlyer
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 9:51 pm

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:59 pm

superjeff wrote:
SFOATLFlyer wrote:
superjeff wrote:

Without getting into an argument, that would agree with my original comments: It might have been a one-off. . . .

Sounds like it was an odd week or so, and it would have to have stopped for fuel - IAD would be okay, but BA would not have had local traffic rights.


Yeah it did DFW-IAD-LHR. I seriously doubt it has traffic rights. I'd seen in another post was this was implemented as BA was transitioning out of the DC10. I'd not though about that, I always assumed it was extra service.



You learn something every day. But definitely no traffic rights as it would be cabotage, and against US law. . . .


Sadly, I don't we'll see anything like the SSC for decades.
 
User avatar
fbgdavidson
Posts: 3863
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 6:25 am

Re: Concorde Why no 1st class?

Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:46 am

Woofbite wrote:
The BA flight attendant on a LHR-JFK I was on told me it was a same day turn-around


Interesting, I assumed cabin crew and flight crew were the same. Flight crew definitely overnighted as I had a Captain that lived just down the road from me.
"My first job was selling doors, door to door, that's a tough job innit" - Bill Bailey

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos