c933103
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Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 11:18 am

I was reading the wikipedia article on EU-US open sky treaty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU%E2%80% ... _Agreement , and one particular focus on that article was that it allow any airlines to fly the route. Does that mean currently as long as UK still remain in this agreement, every airlines from any countries who're currently flying to LHR can extend their flight to the US without requiring extra governmental approval for fifth freedom right?
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raylee67
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 1:30 pm

I think it means any EU airlines can fly between LHR and US, as the agreement concerns only the rights of EU and USA airlines. It basically treats EU as one entity. However, it does not govern whether airlines outside of EU and USA can fly between LHR and USA. That would be governed by the aviation agreement between the 3rd country, EU/UK and US. e.g. obviously the aviation agreement between Kuwait and UK/EU, and between Kuwait and US would allow Kuwait Airways to fly LHR-JFK as a 5th freedom flight. But that has nothing to do with the EU-US agreement.
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Polot
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 1:39 pm

c933103 wrote:
Does that mean currently as long as UK still remain in this agreement, every airlines from any countries who're currently flying to LHR can extend their flight to the US without requiring extra governmental approval for fifth freedom right?

That depends on the bilateral between the third country and the US, and the third country and the UK/EU. The US/EU open skies means EU carriers have unlimited 5th freedom rights between the US and wherever EU airlines can legally utilize 5th freedom rights as governed by bilaterals, and vice versa. Other countries may have further restrictions in their bilateral agreements with the US or EU in regards to fifth freedom flights operated by EU/US airlines, or operated via EU/US ports. If the US-Bahrain bilateral (for example) says no 5th freedom flights allowed, all must be operated nonstop or solely with technical stop between the two countries, then Bahrain airlines can't fly to the US via the EU and US airlines can't fly to Bahrain via the EU and take local passengers on both segments.

Also to operate the 5th freedom flight the airline needs to acquire an additional LHR slot pair.
 
EddieDude
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 5:15 pm

Fifth freedom flights are getting scarcer by the day. In Asia there are still some. With respect to E.U. - U.S.A., I cannot think of many apart from the aforementioned Kuwait LHR-JFK, EK's MXP-JFK and SQ's FRA-JFK. Any others that still exist?
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Polot
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 5:21 pm

EddieDude wrote:
Fifth freedom flights are getting scarcer by the day. In Asia there are still some. With respect to E.U. - U.S.A., I cannot think of many apart from the aforementioned Kuwait LHR-JFK, EK's MXP-JFK and SQ's FRA-JFK. Any others that still exist?

There is also EK ATH-EWR, SQ MAN-IAH, and ET DUB-LAX. Probably a few more I am forgetting.
 
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 5:31 pm

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wn676
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 5:34 pm

Polot wrote:
EddieDude wrote:
Fifth freedom flights are getting scarcer by the day. In Asia there are still some. With respect to E.U. - U.S.A., I cannot think of many apart from the aforementioned Kuwait LHR-JFK, EK's MXP-JFK and SQ's FRA-JFK. Any others that still exist?

There is also EK ATH-EWR, SQ MAN-IAH, and ET DUB-LAX. Probably a few more I am forgetting.


TN CDG-LAX and NZ LHR-LAX, although that's using the U.S. as the stopover point.
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greenair727
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 5:34 pm

What happens to the EU-US agreement re LHR once Brexit happens?
 
Andy33
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 5:46 pm

greenair727 wrote:
What happens to the EU-US agreement re LHR once Brexit happens?


Nobody has the faintest idea yet. Best case, things remain exactly as they are. Worst case, the UK fails to make any agreement at all in time, and the clock is very definitely ticking.
 
ASQ400
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 5:51 pm

Polot wrote:
EddieDude wrote:
Fifth freedom flights are getting scarcer by the day. In Asia there are still some. With respect to E.U. - U.S.A., I cannot think of many apart from the aforementioned Kuwait LHR-JFK, EK's MXP-JFK and SQ's FRA-JFK. Any others that still exist?

There is also EK ATH-EWR, SQ MAN-IAH, and ET DUB-LAX. Probably a few more I am forgetting.

ET isn't allowed to fly pax from DUB to North America without them going through ADD, actually. The bilateral restricts it
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Polot
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 5:57 pm

ASQ400 wrote:
ET isn't allowed to fly pax from DUB to North America without them going through ADD, actually. The bilateral restricts it


I think initially they couldn't/didn't but they do now. I just priced a DUB-LAX-DUB roundtrip in mid-June for 718 Euros on their website. You can also find many reviews from passengers flying just that segment online.
 
Zachbt
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 6:02 pm

ASQ400 wrote:
ET isn't allowed to fly pax from DUB to North America without them going through ADD, actually. The bilateral restricts it


They can to LAX, they do a fuel stop in DUB for flights to IAD and YYZ from ADD which they don't have fifth freedom rights for.
 
VCy
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 6:11 pm

Cyprus Airways also had rights for LCA-LHR-JFK & if I remember correctly there was talks for seasonal MIA & LAX. This was when they first got the a330's, however, it was also around the same time that their problems began.
 
EddieDude
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 6:50 pm

Thank you!
Upcoming flights:
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August: KL MEX-AMS 74M (J), KQ AMS-NBO 788 (J).
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 7:06 pm

Just to be clear, the "EU" in this case is representing the European Common Aviation Area (ECAA), the single market for aviation. The ECAA includes states that are not in the EU (such as Norway or Serbia) but doesn't include Switzerland. I would say it's probable that the UK remains in the ECAA, as EU membership is not required and therefore nothing changes. I wouldn't bet much more than even money on it though. We have no idea what will happen.
 
ASQ400
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 7:35 pm

I think the big concern about fifth freedom rights here is airlines outside the ECAA, especially ME3, swooping in with incidental anchors to their operation bases.
Look for example at DXB-MXP-JFK. There, EK flies practically no DXB-JFK traffic. The MXP-JFK leg is de facto a 7th freedom flight, but it is formally a 5th freedom leg.
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Arion640
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 7:52 pm

ASQ400 wrote:
I think the big concern about fifth freedom rights here is airlines outside the ECAA, especially ME3, swooping in with incidental anchors to their operation bases.
Look for example at DXB-MXP-JFK. There, EK flies practically no DXB-JFK traffic. The MXP-JFK leg is de facto a 7th freedom flight, but it is formally a 5th freedom leg.


EK seem to do well out of fith freedom, AKL-SYD both way was rammed, and not just from my experience, others have said too.
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LupineChemist
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 8:07 pm

Also, didn't Kuwait end their fifth freedom LHR-JFK flight because they didn't recognize Israeli citizens and it was deemed illegal discrimination?

The point is moot direct to KWI where Israeli passports are not granted entry so they are allowed to discriminate on those grounds.
 
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VCEflyboy
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 8:10 pm

I remember a few years ago AF flew LHR - JFK. The flight was discontinued. Does anyone know why?
 
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CanadaFair
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 8:12 pm

Kuwait Airways do not fly fifth freedom LHR-JFK anymore, flights are via Shannon with some being nonstop KWI-JFK..

PIA do MAN-JFK fifth freedom only one way, who flies it?
 
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Polot
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 8:22 pm

VCEflyboy wrote:
I remember a few years ago AF flew LHR - JFK. The flight was discontinued. Does anyone know why?

I don't think they ever tried LHR-JFK but AF briefly tried LHR-LAX after the US/EU openskies agreement went into effect, and quickly learned that just because they could now fly out of other European countries to the US doesn't mean they could successfully compete against the incumbents. That technically wasn't a 5th freedom flight though, it was a standalone flight with no continuation onwards to France. There were some other factors too such as AF being very unhappy with DL's ground handling at LAX who was taking care of the flight there.
 
ASQ400
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 9:40 pm

Arion640 wrote:
ASQ400 wrote:
I think the big concern about fifth freedom rights here is airlines outside the ECAA, especially ME3, swooping in with incidental anchors to their operation bases.
Look for example at DXB-MXP-JFK. There, EK flies practically no DXB-JFK traffic. The MXP-JFK leg is de facto a 7th freedom flight, but it is formally a 5th freedom leg.


EK seem to do well out of fith freedom, AKL-SYD both way was rammed, and not just from my experience, others have said too.

And the Europeans+QF+US3 hate them for it, becuSe they can't beat the subsided, top-of-the-line products on ME3.


EK's Fifth freedom flights to AKL made sense before the DXB-AKL nonstop. Now they're close to de facto 7th freedom
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[email protected]
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 10:47 pm

ASQ400 wrote:
I think the big concern about fifth freedom rights here is airlines outside the ECAA, especially ME3, swooping in with incidental anchors to their operation bases.
Look for example at DXB-MXP-JFK. There, EK flies practically no DXB-JFK traffic. The MXP-JFK leg is de facto a 7th freedom flight, but it is formally a 5th freedom leg.


No one cares about SQ doing it. Or AI. Or whoever.

Only EK.

Says it all, really. No doubt poster is American. ;-)
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Cipango
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 10:57 pm

VCEflyboy wrote:
I remember a few years ago AF flew LHR - JFK. The flight was discontinued. Does anyone know why?

Back in 2007 when the open skies began, AF started LHR-LAX with a 77W. The route didn't perform as planned and AF quickly cut it.
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eta unknown
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Q

Thu May 18, 2017 11:02 pm

[email protected] wrote:
ASQ400 wrote:
I think the big concern about fifth freedom rights here is airlines outside the ECAA, especially ME3, swooping in with incidental anchors to their operation bases.
Look for example at DXB-MXP-JFK. There, EK flies practically no DXB-JFK traffic. The MXP-JFK leg is de facto a 7th freedom flight, but it is formally a 5th freedom leg.


No one cares about SQ doing it. Or AI. Or whoever.

Only EK.

Says it all, really. No doubt poster is American. ;-)

Well actually in a slightly different twist, SQ got kicked out of YYZ when AC objected to SQ's trans-Atlantic traffic rights/fares. I think the routing was YYZ-VIE or FRA-SIN.
 
Prost
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 11:02 pm

If I'm not mistaken, TN PPT-LAX-CDG isn't fifth freedom as it's technically EU-US-EU. I stand to be corrected, however.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 11:21 pm

Air New Zealand serves Heathrow via LAX and used to via HKG as well.
 
Flightsimboy
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Re: Q

Thu May 18, 2017 11:22 pm

Well actually in a slightly different twist, SQ got kicked out of YYZ when AC objected to SQ's trans-Atlantic traffic rights/fares. I think the routing was YYZ-VIE or FRA-SIN.


I believe it was via AMS. Would sure love to see SQ in YYZ!
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N292UX
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 11:23 pm

Polot wrote:
EddieDude wrote:
Fifth freedom flights are getting scarcer by the day. In Asia there are still some. With respect to E.U. - U.S.A., I cannot think of many apart from the aforementioned Kuwait LHR-JFK, EK's MXP-JFK and SQ's FRA-JFK. Any others that still exist?

There is also EK ATH-EWR, SQ MAN-IAH, and ET DUB-LAX. Probably a few more I am forgetting.


EK JFK-MXP
 
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N644US
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Thu May 18, 2017 11:39 pm

[email protected] wrote:
ASQ400 wrote:
I think the big concern about fifth freedom rights here is airlines outside the ECAA, especially ME3, swooping in with incidental anchors to their operation bases.
Look for example at DXB-MXP-JFK. There, EK flies practically no DXB-JFK traffic. The MXP-JFK leg is de facto a 7th freedom flight, but it is formally a 5th freedom leg.


No one cares about SQ doing it. Or AI. Or whoever.

Only EK.

Says it all, really. No doubt poster is American. ;-)


I have no problem with SQ -- it's their sole connection to the US East Coast, and a 5th freedom is the only way an aircraft will have the range to do such a long segment (until the A359ULRs arrive). AI seems a bit iffy, considering they already have connections direct to the US, and EK sits in the same boat. However, AI is originating in AMD, which is actually providing a new route. EK, on the other hand, seems to be mooching off passengers on DXB-MXP-JFK and DXB-ATH-EWR routes when they already have multiple nonstops from DXB-JFK. If they wanted to add capacity, why not add more nonstops?
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c933103
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Fri May 19, 2017 12:07 am

Prost wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, TN PPT-LAX-CDG isn't fifth freedom as it's technically EU-US-EU. I stand to be corrected, however.

PPT is French but I don't think they are EU/ECAA
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ASQ400
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Re: Fifth freedom flights between LHR and the US

Fri May 19, 2017 1:54 am

[email protected] wrote:
ASQ400 wrote:
I think the big concern about fifth freedom rights here is airlines outside the ECAA, especially ME3, swooping in with incidental anchors to their operation bases.
Look for example at DXB-MXP-JFK. There, EK flies practically no DXB-JFK traffic. The MXP-JFK leg is de facto a 7th freedom flight, but it is formally a 5th freedom leg.


No one cares about SQ doing it. Or AI. Or whoever.

Only EK.

Says it all, really. No doubt poster is American. ;-)

That's because EK's government subsidises it even though next to none of their traffic is actually O&D in the UAE.

Also, I'm Israeli. Born and raised there.
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