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2175301
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 5:30 pm

In my opinion this comes down to a few simple factors: Size desired: C300 or A320/737-? Delivery desired: short vs longer time-frame. If A320/737 size then 737 likely wins on faster delivery slots.

Cost will be a factor; but size and delivery time-frame are predominant determinants.

Have a great day,
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 5:42 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
AA in a bitter dispute with Airbus over AA587, including public blame shifting... orders more Airbuses.

Granted, AA didn't order for another 12-13 years if my timetable is right I may be wrong

It was just over 9.5yrs (July 2011)... and it should be noted that AA also didn't make any significant (i.e. beyond 1 or 2 units at a time) orders from Boeing for 7 of those years either.


What Airbus did AA order in 2011?
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 5:56 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Granted, AA didn't order for another 12-13 years if my timetable is right I may be wrong

It was just over 9.5yrs (July 2011)... and it should be noted that AA also didn't make any significant (i.e. beyond 1 or 2 units at a time) orders from Boeing for 7 of those years either.


What Airbus did AA order in 2011?


Seriously? Google helps. 260 Airbus A320 series.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/07/21/b ... l?referer=
 
SUNCTRY738
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 6:19 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
OA940 wrote:
If it's A320/738 size, then the MAX will probably win. It has superior capacity and range, and can already be delivered, which might be a factor for them. If its 321/739 size, the neo has a clear advantage, in that it's superior and has currently the best 757 replacement. Then again, 319/73G size is anyone's guess. But they have some old 150-seaters from Northwest.


There are just 100 fewer A320neo ordered, 3,618, than all versions of the 737MAX together 3,714, so in regards of sales numbers the airlines seem not to accept the advantage of the 737-8 over the A320neo. A320neo series orders have reached 5,054 frames.


And which aircraft family was offered for sale first? Not trying to get an Airbus vs. Boeing debate going but you do have to factor in the time gap between when each family of aircraft was first offered.

I love both families of aircraft for their different qualities. And we are fortunate to have both of them in competition with each other!
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 6:27 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
It was just over 9.5yrs (July 2011)... and it should be noted that AA also didn't make any significant (i.e. beyond 1 or 2 units at a time) orders from Boeing for 7 of those years either.


What Airbus did AA order in 2011?


Seriously? Google helps. 260 Airbus A320 series.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/07/21/b ... l?referer=


Relax buddy... if you read prior comments you would have read I was tracking 2013 and not 2011. 2013 was when they finalized what variants they wanted. 2011 was when the initial blanket order was placed.
 
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RayChuang
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 7:10 pm

I think DL may be choosing between the 737 MAX 8 and the A320neo. And DL--if it chooses the A320neo--may favor the CFM International LEAP-1A powered version due go the current slow production rate of the PW1127G engine.
 
ytz
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 7:32 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
The CS300 is a perfect MD-88 replacement, and with CS100 in the orderbooks already it would be a great fit. Don't know if they could be delivered fast enough, but the Boeing and Airbus orderbooks are pretty much packed as well. There's a rumor this will be MAX 10, so who knows. Maybe a split order.


The CS300 would be too small as an MD-88 replacement. Bombardier isn't in the running unless they can scrounge up surprise capital to offer up the CS500. Or if Delta is willing to change the fleet mix.
 
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Polot
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 7:46 pm

ytz wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
The CS300 is a perfect MD-88 replacement, and with CS100 in the orderbooks already it would be a great fit. Don't know if they could be delivered fast enough, but the Boeing and Airbus orderbooks are pretty much packed as well. There's a rumor this will be MAX 10, so who knows. Maybe a split order.


The CS300 would be too small as an MD-88 replacement. Bombardier isn't in the running unless they can scrounge up surprise capital to offer up the CS500. Or if Delta is willing to change the fleet mix.

The MD-88s will probably be long gone by the time deliveries start anyways. Aircraft being replaced will be the older A320s, MD-90s and maybe A319/738s.
 
flyabr
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 8:12 pm

RayChuang wrote:
I think DL may be choosing between the 737 MAX 8 and the A320neo. And DL--if it chooses the A320neo--may favor the CFM International LEAP-1A powered version due go the current slow production rate of the PW1127G engine.


One would hope that P&W would have long fixed the GTF's issues and caught up with production by the time DL takes deliveries from this upcoming RFP!!
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Mon May 22, 2017 3:24 am

INFINITI329 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
What Airbus did AA order in 2011?

Seriously? Google helps. 260 Airbus A320 series.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/07/21/b ... l?referer=

Relax buddy... if you read prior comments you would have read I was tracking 2013 and not 2011. 2013 was when they finalized what variants they wanted. 2011 was when the initial blanket order was placed.

Which doesn't really make much sense relative to my commentary... as I'm discussing the interval within which they were allegedly "beefing" with Airbus.

They placed an order with Airbus in 2011. The specification of the variants (decided in 2013) is immaterial to that fact. Hence 2011 being the year focused upon.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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seahawk
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Mon May 22, 2017 6:42 am

Maybe DL will be launch customer of the 737-1000.
 
RalXWB
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Mon May 22, 2017 7:49 am

Maybe DL will be launch customer of the 322. :stirthepot:
 
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scbriml
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Mon May 22, 2017 8:16 am

seahawk wrote:
Maybe DL will be launch customer of the 737-1000.


Leeham expects Boeing to launch the 737-10 at Paris, with customers. Given DL hasn't yet issued their RFP, they won't be amongst them. :shakehead:
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seahawk
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Mon May 22, 2017 8:39 am

scbriml wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Maybe DL will be launch customer of the 737-1000.


Leeham expects Boeing to launch the 737-10 at Paris, with customers. Given DL hasn't yet issued their RFP, they won't be amongst them. :shakehead:


DL re-action to the 1000 would be interesting anyway.
 
WIederling
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Mon May 22, 2017 11:56 am

SUNCTRY738 wrote:
And which aircraft family was offered for sale first? Not trying to get an Airbus vs. Boeing debate going but you do have to factor in the time gap between when each family of aircraft was first offered.


If the MAX were such a desirable product all interest in the lesser item would have waned immediately.
After a year or two the starting date would not matter anymore.
i.e. sales numbers today will indicate a product of desirability, delivery horizon and cost.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:06 pm

DL COO hopes to have decision around the new year - evaluating A320neo or 737MAX family order

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-442249/
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airliner371
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:14 pm

LAXintl wrote:
DL COO hopes to have decision around the new year - evaluating A320neo or 737MAX family order

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-442249/

I think with the recent c-series news, it's Airbus' order to lose.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:20 pm

airliner371 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
DL COO hopes to have decision around the new year - evaluating A320neo or 737MAX family order

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-442249/

I think with the recent c-series news, it's Airbus' order to lose.
While it does seem that way, DL is a pretty heartless competitor. I wouldn't surprise me to see them order the 737 if Boeing offers a better deal.
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mercure1
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:42 pm

Then OEM that can meet the delivery time frame DL wants at the best price will win. Would be silly for DL to somehow penalize Boeing.
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Momo1435
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:46 pm

Delta could be the big winner after all these hectic months in narrow body land. Boeing will come with a very good offer, as they could use this order for good PR. So Airbus will have to follow if they want to win this order. So after a very good C Series deal they should be able to get a very good MAX or neo deal as well.

And I have no doubt they will order Boeing if they offer the best deal. Delta is rational enough to put their own shareholders before anyone else.
 
ericm2031
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:13 pm

With DL having a plan for about 200 737NG's in the fleet and with new ones coming online, they are still 30 years away from even being close to being able to switch to all-Airbus and needs the OEM's competing on price...so I don't see that being very likely...and DL will very likely be looking hard at the 797 in the future.

Even if this goes to Airbus they will have almost 500 A319/320/321/B737 current generation aircraft in their fleet so 100 will definitely not cover everything in the long run. A MAX and/or 797 order could definitely be in the future if it doesn't win this order and it may even be an advantage ordering only 100 and waiting to see what Boeing does come up with the 797.
 
Egerton
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:13 pm

Elsewhere there is more wise discussion. It seems to me that the probability is that Airbus in Montreal will push on with the design and testing on both the CS 300 and CS 500. This will leave Toulouse and the European end of Airbus to crack on with a A323 which will be a step-change up in capability from the A321. Airbus might do an interim A322 as a quick fix. These will stuff Boeing's 737 and its never to be built 797. Boeing narrow bodies will all need to be replaced, with high capital cost.
 
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mikegigs
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:21 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
airliner371 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
DL COO hopes to have decision around the new year - evaluating A320neo or 737MAX family order

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-442249/

I think with the recent c-series news, it's Airbus' order to lose.
While it does seem that way, DL is a pretty heartless competitor. I wouldn't surprise me to see them order the 737 if Boeing offers a better deal.


Agree 100%. Really I think it will come down to price. I doubt DL will harbor hard feelings for long. in a twisted way i think DL might respect Boeing for being so cutthroat. Seems like something they'd try lol
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NZ321
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:26 pm

Doesn't sound like C series territory to me. I think a320 neo. Medium chance b737 Max 8.
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ytz
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:32 pm

NZ321 wrote:
Doesn't sound like C series territory to me. I think a320 neo. Medium chance b737 Max 8.


Agreed. This isn't CSeries territory. That said, Airbus would be stupid now to leverage their new assets for every sale possible.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:39 pm

LAXintl wrote:
DL COO hopes to have decision around the new year - evaluating A320neo or 737MAX family order

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-442249/


While I appreciate the link I don't see this timing assertion in the article: 'DL COO hopes to have decision around the new year'

In contrast, it says: 'He declines to comment on a timeline for the order.'
 
Austin787
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:52 pm

I'm guessing Delta orders A320neo family. I think Boeing burned bridges with their squabbles against Bombardier. The "RFP" seems like a negotiation tool for Delta to get the best deal from Airbus.
 
MD80MKE
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:03 pm

Like what other posters said, I think it's definitely not a sure thing yet. Delta is a buyer that is well-known to be price-sensitve. If Boeing offers a killer-price which Airbus is not willing to match, it will be a no brainer for DL. But with all the recent top-up orders for A321CEOs, the momentum is on Airbus' side for sure. Airbus also for sure wants to keep DL as their main NB customer.
 
1900Driver
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:09 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Then OEM that can meet the delivery time frame DL wants at the best price will win. Would be silly for DL to somehow penalize Boeing.


Especially when Boeing intentionality tried to screw them over! Sometimes teaching other businesses a lesson in humility is best for the long run.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:11 pm

MD80MKE wrote:
Like what other posters said, I think it's definitely not a sure thing yet. Delta is a buyer that is well-known to be price-sensitve. If Boeing offers a killer-price which Airbus is not willing to match, it will be a no brainer for DL. But with all the recent top-up orders for A321CEOs, the momentum is on Airbus' side for sure. Airbus also for sure wants to keep DL as their main NB customer.


DL is for sure a big NB customer, but not their main NB customer, just look at AA. I would not be too surprised to see them ordering A, if anything, and as some kind of punishment to see the B order, again if anything, at a later stage when this story cooled down a bit.
 
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tlecam
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:11 pm

I think Airbus could have a very slight advantage, but not because of any burned bridges; but because they could offer a very well rounded package across the C-Series and A32x - beyond just the sale/price of the aircraft. Burned bridges can be repaired very quickly when it comes to dollars and cents.

But Boeing has a ton of aircraft with Boeing so they can do much of the same, which is why I say a slight advantage.

At the end of the day it will be all in price and availability.
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bkflyguy
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:15 pm

The decision could also heavily involve engine choice. DL will already have the GTF in their fleet due to the C-Series order. Do they take on more GTFs with an A320neo order? Or, do they go with the LEAP engine which could mean either 737 or A320, and would potentially add another engine type for Tech Ops? It will be interesting to watch.
 
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Keith2004
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:23 pm

If the order ends up being something like 120 x 320neos + 34-40 CS100/300 top up, the Karma Gods would be very happy LOL

I don't expect DL to do a revenge order or anything not in business interest, however if the numbers are really close, Airbus has the edge, + Delta has been very happy with 321 based on top up orders.
 
JeffinMass
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:23 pm

It is of my opinion that if Boeing doesn't stop whining and withdraws their complaint Airbus will win with DL's future orders. I must also say that DL doesn't really need the A350s no matter how good as deal it is/was? They could have ordered B773s and kept a common fleet.
 
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william
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:51 pm

I would love for the ANET CEOs to explain to the Delta major shareholders why they "chose" to pay more for an asset because of a 'personal' beef. Because if its such a slam dunk for Airbus why would they offer a bare bones contract? It would be stupid on Airbus's part. This isn't Ryan Air vs Airbus yet, not even close. And Delta would definitely be expecting a tantalizing deal from Boeing.

Besides, whatever Delta pays will be same at what AA paid, unless Airbus wants to start writing refund checks.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1375483&p=19864881#p19864881
 
dbo861
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:53 pm

I’m too lazy to read through the already 600+ posts in the C-Series/Airbus thread..so I’ll ask here. How soon (do we know yet?) can Airbus start selling C-series aircraft? Delta already has commitments for 125 aircraft with all their options. They might want to wait until they’ve operated them to see how they like their first batch before a topup order.
 
Egerton
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:00 pm

dbo861 wrote:
I’m too lazy to read through the already 600+ posts in the C-Series/Airbus thread..so I’ll ask here. How soon (do we know yet?) can Airbus start selling C-series aircraft? Delta already has commitments for 125 aircraft with all their options. They might want to wait until they’ve operated them to see how they like their first batch before a topup order.


Maybe it will depend on the various laws and regulations in the nations involved, possibly Canada and UK including the EU, I guess. Maybe mid 2018 before this can be put to bed?
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:06 pm

Egerton wrote:
dbo861 wrote:
I’m too lazy to read through the already 600+ posts in the C-Series/Airbus thread..so I’ll ask here. How soon (do we know yet?) can Airbus start selling C-series aircraft? Delta already has commitments for 125 aircraft with all their options. They might want to wait until they’ve operated them to see how they like their first batch before a topup order.


Maybe it will depend on the various laws and regulations in the nations involved, possibly Canada and UK including the EU, I guess. Maybe mid 2018 before this can be put to bed?
I think it will be way later than that. The Airbus BBD deal isn't supposed to close until late 2018. If the DL planes have to be built in Alabama, it will be a couple of years after that. I'm guessing 2020 at the earliest unless something happens on the tariff front.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:10 pm

1900Driver wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Then OEM that can meet the delivery time frame DL wants at the best price will win. Would be silly for DL to somehow penalize Boeing.


Especially when Boeing intentionality tried to screw them over! Sometimes teaching other businesses a lesson in humility is best for the long run.
DL has also been trying to screw over Boeing with its anti Ex-Im Bank and anti ME3 stances. It's not personal, its just business. Besides, I don't think DL is in a position to teach anyone about humility.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
1900Driver
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:15 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
1900Driver wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Then OEM that can meet the delivery time frame DL wants at the best price will win. Would be silly for DL to somehow penalize Boeing.


Especially when Boeing intentionality tried to screw them over! Sometimes teaching other businesses a lesson in humility is best for the long run.
DL has also been trying to screw over Boeing with its anti Ex-Im Bank and anti ME3 stances. It's not personal, its just business. Besides, I don't think DL is in a position to teach anyone about humility.


Delta is in a position to do as they please. They’re perhaps the most successful airline in the planet.

Delta has every right to complain about unfair subsidies Boeing received via the Ex-Im Bank.
 
Arion640
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:22 pm

1900Driver wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
1900Driver wrote:

Especially when Boeing intentionality tried to screw them over! Sometimes teaching other businesses a lesson in humility is best for the long run.
DL has also been trying to screw over Boeing with its anti Ex-Im Bank and anti ME3 stances. It's not personal, its just business. Besides, I don't think DL is in a position to teach anyone about humility.


Delta is in a position to do as they please. They’re perhaps the most successful airline in the planet.

Delta has every right to complain about unfair subsidies Boeing received via the Ex-Im Bank.


Hmmmm most sucessfull airline on the planet? What's your measure of success?

I think that crown would possibly go to Ryanair.

Lufthansa group because of there successful turnarounds? Emirates taking DXB to where it is today? Could be anybody depending on your view.
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
Egerton
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:26 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
Egerton wrote:
dbo861 wrote:
I’m too lazy to read through the already 600+ posts in the C-Series/Airbus thread..so I’ll ask here. How soon (do we know yet?) can Airbus start selling C-series aircraft? Delta already has commitments for 125 aircraft with all their options. They might want to wait until they’ve operated them to see how they like their first batch before a topup order.


Maybe it will depend on the various laws and regulations in the nations involved, possibly Canada and UK including the EU, I guess. Maybe mid 2018 before this can be put to bed?
I think it will be way later than that. The Airbus BBD deal isn't supposed to close until late 2018. If the DL planes have to be built in Alabama, it will be a couple of years after that. I'm guessing 2020 at the earliest unless something happens on the tariff front.


If the question was 'How soon can Airbus start selling C-series aircraft', then the existing Bombardier firm can gives its consent today. Perhaps it is down to how Airbus can get the necessary sales data and sales paperwork from Bombardier to integrate the operations of the two teams. There seems no reason why A people and B people cannot work together around the world to get the sales show on the road quite quickly. This and every thing else needs to happen quickly for obvious reasons.

What is being proposed is in effect a sale of assets and trade to a new company, so due diligence is going to be much quicker than buying the existing firm.

Equally the building of an new assembly line in Alabama can be put in hand today. So I think it may not be necessary to wait for a cold start in late 2018.
 
Atlwarrior
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:33 pm

airliner371 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
DL COO hopes to have decision around the new year - evaluating A320neo or 737MAX family order

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-442249/

I think with the recent c-series news, it's Airbus' order to lose.

It appears everything is working in Delta's favor. What a great time to announce what they are evaluating after the C-Series/Airbus news. The is called perfect timing and Delta is riding this perfect kairos moment.
Last edited by Atlwarrior on Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
1900Driver
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:34 pm

Arion640 wrote:
1900Driver wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
DL has also been trying to screw over Boeing with its anti Ex-Im Bank and anti ME3 stances. It's not personal, its just business. Besides, I don't think DL is in a position to teach anyone about humility.


Delta is in a position to do as they please. They’re perhaps the most successful airline in the planet.

Delta has every right to complain about unfair subsidies Boeing received via the Ex-Im Bank.


Hmmmm most sucessfull airline on the planet? What's your measure of success?

I think that crown would possibly go to Ryanair.

Lufthansa group because of there successful turnarounds? Emirates taking DXB to where it is today? Could be anybody depending on your view.


Financially.. one of the most successful. Ryanair takes the LCC crown.

https://www.thestreet.com/story/1385205 ... -says.html

I can’t believe you would actually bring up Emirates into the fold.
 
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Polot
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:37 pm

1900Driver wrote:
Delta has every right to complain about unfair subsidies Boeing received via the Ex-Im Bank.

DL's complaint isn't that the Ex-Im Bank gives Boeing unfair subsidies. Delta is not an aircraft manufacturer, they could not care less if Boeing gets unfair subsidies or not as long as they can still play Boeing off Airbus for better prices. DL's complaint about the Ex-Im Bank is that it gives unfair advantages to foreign airlines who are able to get great deals when buying Boeing. Obviously Boeing (and Airbus btw, who now benefits from the Ex-Im Bank thanks to the Mobile FAL) want to see the Ex-Im bank continue because it allows them to sell planes easier.

I would not expect additional C-series orders from DL until they have a clearer understanding of when they are actually receiving the planes they already have on order.
Last edited by Polot on Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:38 pm

1900Driver wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
1900Driver wrote:

Especially when Boeing intentionality tried to screw them over! Sometimes teaching other businesses a lesson in humility is best for the long run.
DL has also been trying to screw over Boeing with its anti Ex-Im Bank and anti ME3 stances. It's not personal, its just business. Besides, I don't think DL is in a position to teach anyone about humility.


Delta is in a position to do as they please. They’re perhaps the most successful airline in the planet.

Delta has every right to complain about unfair subsidies Boeing received via the Ex-Im Bank.
Boeing is in a position to do as they please. They're perhaps the most successful aircraft manufacturer on the planet.
Boeing has every right to complain about unfair subsidies Delta received via the Canadian taxpayer.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:43 pm

A couple of thoughts:

(1) The effect of the Airbus deal may well be felt immediately. It has stabilized the market perception and validated the product. It shouldn't, because there is no deal until there is a deal, but given that so much in business is perception, the perception has changed immediately.

(2) The deal may well have to change before closing to satisfy whatever government meddlers will be meddling. It seems to have been constructed to placate the British and Canadians, as well as the Americans, but that doesn't mean that folks won't ask for more-favorable terms for their particular interest group. Also, it can be presumed that Boeing is going to ramp UP its campaign against the C-Series and Airbus, not back down.

(3) Airbus needs to be careful about generating "tying" claims. Most of the antitrust babble (which in general terms shouldn't be much of an issue if you define the affected market to be sub-150-seat commercial aircraft) focuses on the protections against monopolization, but tying is also an evil under the Sherman Act, and although I think a tying claim would be very remote because of the other prerequisites to a viable tying claim, they are probably best off right now steering clear of assembling deals for their most-restricted-availability aircraft that include an agreement to take any C-series. Sounds like Airbus is not going to market those aircraft right now, anyway, but it's something for them to be aware of. (So, for example, I don't see any deals that include 50 A32x and 20 CS-x00 coming anytime soon.)

(4) Don't forget that in a few months, we'll see what the ITC does about the actual level of tariffs. I still think the appropriate sanction would be zero, because Boeing isn't harmed by sales of aircraft in a market in which Boeing doesn't participate. They managed to get a determination that the aircraft were dumped, but that's only Step 1. Step 2 is the actual determination of tariff, which really doesn't have to pay more than lip service to the Commerce Department recommendation, and must make an actual factual determination of the actual harm to Boeing, which in this case, in my opinion without having read the presentations, seems to be zero. If the ITC finds no harm, then a major cloud over the DL order under the old regime is lifted, and the value of the BBD deal to Airbus increases dramatically.
Last edited by wjcandee on Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:45 pm

Egerton wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Egerton wrote:

Maybe it will depend on the various laws and regulations in the nations involved, possibly Canada and UK including the EU, I guess. Maybe mid 2018 before this can be put to bed?
I think it will be way later than that. The Airbus BBD deal isn't supposed to close until late 2018. If the DL planes have to be built in Alabama, it will be a couple of years after that. I'm guessing 2020 at the earliest unless something happens on the tariff front.


If the question was 'How soon can Airbus start selling C-series aircraft', then the existing Bombardier firm can gives its consent today. Perhaps it is down to how Airbus can get the necessary sales data and sales paperwork from Bombardier to integrate the operations of the two teams. There seems no reason why A people and B people cannot work together around the world to get the sales show on the road quite quickly. This and every thing else needs to happen quickly for obvious reasons.

What is being proposed is in effect a sale of assets and trade to a new company, so due diligence is going to be much quicker than buying the existing firm.

Equally the building of an new assembly line in Alabama can be put in hand today. So I think it may not be necessary to wait for a cold start in late 2018.
True, they can start working together rather quickly I assume based on various countries laws as you said. I was mostly replying to the part about DL ordering more after operating the type.

As for the building of a line in Alabama, it appears to be Airbus is taking on virtually no risk with this deal. I would think they would want to keep it that way and not start anything concrete until the deal is officially closed. Maybe I am wrong though.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:03 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
Boeing is in a position to do as they please. They're perhaps the most successful aircraft manufacturer on the planet.
Boeing has every right to complain about unfair subsidies Delta received via the Canadian taxpayer.


Boeing IS the most subsidised airplane manufacturer in the planet (as well as US airlines via protectionist policies during the last decades), and is in the position to try to bully competitors using political and baseless arguments as they please, which doesn't mean at all will succeed or be right.

Shame on them, shame on you.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:07 pm

This thread has gone off the rails.
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