• 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 8
 
phxa340
Posts: 1067
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:07 am

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:09 pm

Jayafe wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Boeing is in a position to do as they please. They're perhaps the most successful aircraft manufacturer on the planet.
Boeing has every right to complain about unfair subsidies Delta received via the Canadian taxpayer.


Boeing IS the most subsidised airplane manufacturer in the planet (as well as US airlines via protectionist policies during the last decades), and is in the position to try to bully competitors using political and baseless arguments as they please, which doesn't mean at all will succeed or be right.

Shame on them, shame on you.


Lol. Airbus of the 70s and 80s ? COMAC ?

I know it's getting cold up north but wow ...
 
CX747
Posts: 6107
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:09 pm

Boeing needs to show up with their pencils sharpened and their A game. Put whatever possible issues with Delts they have to rest and outright win this order. I'd have the CEO himself get down to Atlanta and bridge the gap.

We can't continue to have two of America's finest companies taking one another to the woodshed every chance they get.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
User avatar
Jayafe
Posts: 1215
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:12 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:13 pm

phxa340 wrote:
Lol. Airbus of the 70s and 80s ? COMAC ?

I know it's getting cold up north but wow ...


I guess you are forgetting on purpose all the military and air space extremely high subsidised contracts (protected from competition) ;)
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 2698
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:18 pm

Yep, it’s far gone.
 
phxa340
Posts: 1067
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:07 am

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:23 pm

Jayafe wrote:
phxa340 wrote:
Lol. Airbus of the 70s and 80s ? COMAC ?

I know it's getting cold up north but wow ...


I guess you are forgetting on purpose all the military and air space extremely high subsidised contracts (protected from competition) ;)


Yup , that KC-46 and CST-100 are just raking in the $$$ for Boeing.

But I am not going to argue with you, BBD only exists in it's current form thanks to generous government support.
 
flyabr
Posts: 854
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 11:42 am

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:32 pm

If Boeing continues to aggressively attack the C Series, I'd give a leg up to Airbus winning this RFP. Of course, wouldn't it be the irony of all ironies if Boeing did what BBD supposedly did to procure an order from DL? :D
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17675
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:38 pm

william wrote:
I would love for the ANET CEOs to explain to the Delta major shareholders why they "chose" to pay more for an asset because of a 'personal' beef.


If I were a DL shareholder I would expect them to add the cost of the CS tariffs to Boeing's bid. :yes:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
1900Driver
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:17 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:38 pm

Polot wrote:
1900Driver wrote:
Delta has every right to complain about unfair subsidies Boeing received via the Ex-Im Bank.

DL's complaint isn't that the Ex-Im Bank gives Boeing unfair subsidies. Delta is not an aircraft manufacturer, they could not care less if Boeing gets unfair subsidies or not as long as they can still play Boeing off Airbus for better prices. DL's complaint about the Ex-Im Bank is that it gives unfair advantages to foreign airlines who are able to get great deals when buying Boeing. Obviously Boeing (and Airbus btw, who now benefits from the Ex-Im Bank thanks to the Mobile FAL) want to see the Ex-Im bank continue because it allows them to sell planes easier.

I would not expect additional C-series orders from DL until they have a clearer understanding of when they are actually receiving the planes they already have on order.


You’re really not up to speed with what has happened over the past 5 years. Delta doesn't have access to those special rates that stimulated all those foreign Boeing sales.

I don’t expect expect DL to order soon, but Europe probably will at this point. FYI, the planes will delivered Tariff free to DL.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9609
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:42 pm

scbriml wrote:
william wrote:
I would love for the ANET CEOs to explain to the Delta major shareholders why they "chose" to pay more for an asset because of a 'personal' beef.


If I were a DL shareholder I would expect them to add the cost of the CS tariffs to Boeing's bid. :yes:

Boeing is not (potentially) buying from DL...DL is (potentially) buying from Boeing. Why would DL shift "costs" to Boeing's bid which would just mean Airbus has to be less aggressive with pricing? :confused:

For example, if airbus was offering planes at $100 mil a pop and Boeing competing planes at $25 mil, but would be $125 mil I’d consider potential c-series tariff costs to Dl over Boeing’s frames, DL is not going to go to Airbus and say hey Boeing is offering significantly lower prices but if we include tariffs we have to pay more so you win, DL is going to go to Airbus and say hey Boeing is offering significantly better prices you have to do better. DL is paying tariffs (or not) independent of who wins the RFP.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2174
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:43 pm

1900Driver wrote:
Polot wrote:
1900Driver wrote:
Delta has every right to complain about unfair subsidies Boeing received via the Ex-Im Bank.

DL's complaint isn't that the Ex-Im Bank gives Boeing unfair subsidies. Delta is not an aircraft manufacturer, they could not care less if Boeing gets unfair subsidies or not as long as they can still play Boeing off Airbus for better prices. DL's complaint about the Ex-Im Bank is that it gives unfair advantages to foreign airlines who are able to get great deals when buying Boeing. Obviously Boeing (and Airbus btw, who now benefits from the Ex-Im Bank thanks to the Mobile FAL) want to see the Ex-Im bank continue because it allows them to sell planes easier.

I would not expect additional C-series orders from DL until they have a clearer understanding of when they are actually receiving the planes they already have on order.


You’re really not up to speed with what has happened over the past 5 years. Delta doesn't have access to those special rates that stimulated all those foreign Boeing sales.

I don’t expect expect DL to order soon, but Europe probably will at this point. FYI, the planes will ebdelirvrre Tariff free to DL.


You're not really correct. Polot is 100% correct. Also, your last sentence makes absolutely no sense.
 
1900Driver
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:17 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:30 pm

1900Driver wrote:
Polot wrote:
1900Driver wrote:
Delta has every right to complain about unfair subsidies Boeing received via the Ex-Im Bank.

DL's complaint isn't that the Ex-Im Bank gives Boeing unfair subsidies. Delta is not an aircraft manufacturer, they could not care less if Boeing gets unfair subsidies or not as long as they can still play Boeing off Airbus for better prices. DL's complaint about the Ex-Im Bank is that it gives unfair advantages to foreign airlines who are able to get great deals when buying Boeing. Obviously Boeing (and Airbus btw, who now benefits from the Ex-Im Bank thanks to the Mobile FAL) want to see the Ex-Im bank continue because it allows them to sell planes easier.

I would not expect additional C-series orders from DL until they have a clearer understanding of when they are actually receiving the planes they already have on order.


You’re really not up to speed with what has happened over the past 5 years. Delta doesn't have access to those special rates that stimulated all those foreign Boeing sales.

I don’t expect expect DL to order soon, but Europe probably will at this point. FYI, the planes will be delivered Tariff free to DL.
 
Arion640
Posts: 2463
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:36 pm

1900Driver wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
1900Driver wrote:

Delta is in a position to do as they please. They’re perhaps the most successful airline in the planet.

Delta has every right to complain about unfair subsidies Boeing received via the Ex-Im Bank.


Hmmmm most sucessfull airline on the planet? What's your measure of success?

I think that crown would possibly go to Ryanair.

Lufthansa group because of there successful turnarounds? Emirates taking DXB to where it is today? Could be anybody depending on your view.


Financially.. one of the most successful. Ryanair takes the LCC crown.

https://www.thestreet.com/story/1385205 ... -says.html

I can’t believe you would actually bring up Emirates into the fold.


I find Emirates pretty impressive, regardless if you think they are subsided. Huge fleet of A380's, best all rounder economy product in the world. Dubai is now one of the busiest airports in the world, no airline can say they have pretty much single handily taken an airport to that level.

Have you ever flown Emirates?
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
Arion640
Posts: 2463
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:38 pm

phxa340 wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
phxa340 wrote:
Lol. Airbus of the 70s and 80s ? COMAC ?

I know it's getting cold up north but wow ...


I guess you are forgetting on purpose all the military and air space extremely high subsidised contracts (protected from competition) ;)


Yup , that KC-46 and CST-100 are just raking in the $$$ for Boeing.

But I am not going to argue with you, BBD only exists in it's current form thanks to generous government support.


I think pretty much A, B and BBD only exist like they do because of the government support over the years.
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
masonh2479
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:44 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:39 pm

I really don't like Boeing's chances for this one. IMO, seems like Delta has been leaning Airbus in recent years. Going after the C-Series might have troubled relationships between Boeing-Delta. With Airbus backing the C-Series, they might be trying (and succeeding) on getting on Delta's good side. When it comes down to it though, Delta will go for the cheaper price. Speaking of leaning Airbus, I really wish Delta kept their 787 order... :(
 
1900Driver
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:17 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:46 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
1900Driver wrote:
Polot wrote:
DL's complaint isn't that the Ex-Im Bank gives Boeing unfair subsidies. Delta is not an aircraft manufacturer, they could not care less if Boeing gets unfair subsidies or not as long as they can still play Boeing off Airbus for better prices. DL's complaint about the Ex-Im Bank is that it gives unfair advantages to foreign airlines who are able to get great deals when buying Boeing. Obviously Boeing (and Airbus btw, who now benefits from the Ex-Im Bank thanks to the Mobile FAL) want to see the Ex-Im bank continue because it allows them to sell planes easier.

I would not expect additional C-series orders from DL until they have a clearer understanding of when they are actually receiving the planes they already have on order.


You’re really not up to speed with what has happened over the past 5 years. Delta doesn't have access to those special rates that stimulated all those foreign Boeing sales.

I don’t expect expect DL to order soon, but Europe probably will at this point. FYI, the planes will ebdelirvrre Tariff free to DL.


You're not really correct. Polot is 100% correct. Also, your last sentence makes absolutely no sense.


Because you have declared so? How does any of his logic make sense? The point is that Delta was unable to benefit from subsidies Boeing received that have “indirectly” benefited foreign carriers like the ME3. I think Delta cared very much about that! To think otherwise is naive. That’s 100% correct.
Polot can manipulate the situation however he sees fit, which seems to be very similar to what’s going on in Seattle & Washington these days.

That sentence made perfect sense, with the exception of a missing word. Most people are able to figure that out.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2174
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:53 pm

1900Driver wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
1900Driver wrote:

You’re really not up to speed with what has happened over the past 5 years. Delta doesn't have access to those special rates that stimulated all those foreign Boeing sales.

I don’t expect expect DL to order soon, but Europe probably will at this point. FYI, the planes will ebdelirvrre Tariff free to DL.


You're not really correct. Polot is 100% correct. Also, your last sentence makes absolutely no sense.


Because you have declared so? How does any of his logic make sense? The point is that Delta was unable to benefit from subsidies Boeing received that have “indirectly” benefited foreign carriers like the ME3. I think Delta cared very much about that! To think otherwise is naive. That’s 100% correct.
Polot can manipulate the situation however he sees fit, which seems to be very similar to what’s going on in Seattle & Washington these days.

That sentence made perfect sense, with the exception of a missing word. Most people are able to figure that out.


Exim is not a subsidy to Boeing - it is cheap financing for foreign carriers. This isn't difficult to grasp. Guess what? Canada has one too. So do many European countries.

Also your sentence still doesn't make sense. Europe is going to order planes?
 
1900Driver
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:17 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:45 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
1900Driver wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

You're not really correct. Polot is 100% correct. Also, your last sentence makes absolutely no sense.


Because you have declared so? How does any of his logic make sense? The point is that Delta was unable to benefit from subsidies Boeing received that have “indirectly” benefited foreign carriers like the ME3. I think Delta cared very much about that! To think otherwise is naive. That’s 100% correct.
Polot can manipulate the situation however he sees fit, which seems to be very similar to what’s going on in Seattle & Washington these days.

That sentence made perfect sense, with the exception of a missing word. Most people are able to figure that out.


Exim is not a subsidy to Boeing - it is cheap financing for foreign carriers. This isn't difficult to grasp. Guess what? Canada has one too. So do many European countries.

Also your sentence still doesn't make sense. Europe is going to order planes?


Exim, also referred to as “the bank of Boeing”. https://www.google.ca/amp/www.chicagotr ... n,amp.html

Most jurisdictions have Exim banks, but none (with the exception of Brazil) are that influential.

Europe, short for European airlines. Most readers are able to figure that out.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1566
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:16 pm

Jayafe wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Boeing is in a position to do as they please. They're perhaps the most successful aircraft manufacturer on the planet.
Boeing has every right to complain about unfair subsidies Delta received via the Canadian taxpayer.


Boeing IS the most subsidised airplane manufacturer in the planet (as well as US airlines via protectionist policies during the last decades), and is in the position to try to bully competitors using political and baseless arguments as they please, which doesn't mean at all will succeed or be right.

Shame on them, shame on you.
Shame on me? For what? Taking the exact words that were said about Delta and applying them to Boeing? Is there something in there which is not true? I think people are getting way to emotional about some of this. As I said in a previous post, its just business.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
User avatar
BaconButty
Posts: 810
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:42 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:40 pm

Guys,

The various Export Credit Agencies globally don't really provide cheap credit, rather they provide loan guarantees which in turn drive down lending costs. You may think this is semantics, but not really as they do this for a cost. Since 2014 (and the implementation of the 2011 ASU) those fees have been brought more into line with commercial realities. In fact some have speculated that Trump backtracked on his Exim commitments because the bloody thing was a profit centre! In fact, I've heard of these agencies competing for business recently:
The new pact with Italy's Sace SpA is the first between Boeing and an overseas export credit agency and provides a template for the company to secure similar deals with other countries that supply large parts of its jetliners, said Jon Byron, an aviation financier at Apple Bank.

Sace's involvement reflects the role of Italian companies such as Leonardo SpA in providing parts for Boeing jets, which Sace said supported 12,000 jobs in the country. It sealed its first deal this month with guarantees for three 737-800 planes acquired by Turkey-based SunExpress. Boeing's best-selling jet has a list price of $98 million, though airlines typically secure large discounts.

U.K. Export Finance, Britain's state-owned export agency that has long backed sales of Boeing jets powered by Rolls-Royce Holdings PLC engines, is expanding its offerings. Other countries with large Boeing suppliers -- such as Japan and South Korea -- are expected to follow the path taken by Italy, said bankers.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/boeing ... 2017-05-31

The issue comes about because of the Home Market rule (European and US bodies can't guarantee loans to each others airlines). But it's worth remembering that these are devices brought in by producing nations.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3194
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:43 pm

masonh2479 wrote:
I really don't like Boeing's chances for this one. IMO, seems like Delta has been leaning Airbus in recent years. Going after the C-Series might have troubled relationships between Boeing-Delta. With Airbus backing the C-Series, they might be trying (and succeeding) on getting on Delta's good side. When it comes down to it though, Delta will go for the cheaper price. Speaking of leaning Airbus, I really wish Delta kept their 787 order... :(


Boeing and Delta have not been BFFs since Delta's bankruptcy. Boeing did not exactly play nice when Delta was negotiating with its creditors.
 
777Mech
Posts: 802
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:16 pm

Arion640 wrote:
1900Driver wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Hmmmm most sucessfull airline on the planet? What's your measure of success?

I think that crown would possibly go to Ryanair.

Lufthansa group because of there successful turnarounds? Emirates taking DXB to where it is today? Could be anybody depending on your view.


Financially.. one of the most successful. Ryanair takes the LCC crown.

https://www.thestreet.com/story/1385205 ... -says.html

I can’t believe you would actually bring up Emirates into the fold.


I find Emirates pretty impressive, regardless if you think they are subsided. Huge fleet of A380's, best all rounder economy product in the world. Dubai is now one of the busiest airports in the world, no airline can say they have pretty much single handily taken an airport to that level.


Have you ever heard of DL and Atlanta?
 
Arion640
Posts: 2463
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:54 pm

777Mech wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
1900Driver wrote:

Financially.. one of the most successful. Ryanair takes the LCC crown.

https://www.thestreet.com/story/1385205 ... -says.html

I can’t believe you would actually bring up Emirates into the fold.


I find Emirates pretty impressive, regardless if you think they are subsided. Huge fleet of A380's, best all rounder economy product in the world. Dubai is now one of the busiest airports in the world, no airline can say they have pretty much single handily taken an airport to that level.


Have you ever heard of DL and Atlanta?


Nope never.
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:23 pm

What about a package deal. More CS with 321NEOs. And maybe Airbus promises DL the CS500 launch.....

Just look at their fleet. 91 717s, 67 73Gs and 320s. Seems to me that's perfect for the CS100/CS300. And another 140 738s and A320s. DL could leverage that to get the CS500 while still getting volume discount on lots of 321NEOs.

Far-fetched I know.
 
User avatar
VirginFlyer
Posts: 5262
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:42 pm

This was posted in the thread about the Airbus C Series tie up, for what it is worth:

wjcandee wrote:
Bastian came out today and said:

(1) DL will wait to take delivery of the C-Series until a line is running in the US.
(2) He expects that to be later than currently-planned. (The deal doesn't close until mid-2018 and doing a new line will take a year from then, minimum.)
(3) DL had nothing to do with the deal, and DL isn't going to pay tariffs.
(4) DL has a "great relationship" with Boeing and is still going to take delivery of their planes. (Message: We're big boys and Boeing's conduct is just business.) Of course, he has to say that, for about a million reasons. What will be interesting to see is whether Boeing gets any new orders from DL anytime soon.


V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18305
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:11 pm

What other large RFP is active? I'm not aware of another. Both Boeing and Airbus want this order. Both will bid

VirginFlyer wrote:
This was posted in the thread about the Airbus C Series tie up, for what it is worth:

wjcandee wrote:
Bastian came out today and said:

(1) DL will wait to take delivery of the C-Series until a line is running in the US.
(2) He expects that to be later than currently-planned. (The deal doesn't close until mid-2018 and doing a new line will take a year from then, minimum.)
(3) DL had nothing to do with the deal, and DL isn't going to pay tariffs.
(4) DL has a "great relationship" with Boeing and is still going to take delivery of their planes. (Message: We're big boys and Boeing's conduct is just business.) Of course, he has to say that, for about a million reasons. What will be interesting to see is whether Boeing gets any new orders from DL anytime soon.


V/F

We enthusiasts are making a bigger deal than executives will of C-series tariffs. A work around, albeit with an 18 month delay, has been found. DL cares more about cash flow.

This will be as much about the engine service package too. CFM and Pratt will have to deal.

If nobody deals, DL will buy used and rebid again. Since the orders will be few for a bit, both will want this order.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:26 pm

lightsaber wrote:
What other large RFP is active? I'm not aware of another. Both Boeing and Airbus want this order. Both will bid

VirginFlyer wrote:
This was posted in the thread about the Airbus C Series tie up, for what it is worth:

wjcandee wrote:
Bastian came out today and said:

(1) DL will wait to take delivery of the C-Series until a line is running in the US.
(2) He expects that to be later than currently-planned. (The deal doesn't close until mid-2018 and doing a new line will take a year from then, minimum.)
(3) DL had nothing to do with the deal, and DL isn't going to pay tariffs.
(4) DL has a "great relationship" with Boeing and is still going to take delivery of their planes. (Message: We're big boys and Boeing's conduct is just business.) Of course, he has to say that, for about a million reasons. What will be interesting to see is whether Boeing gets any new orders from DL anytime soon.


V/F

We enthusiasts are making a bigger deal than executives will of C-series tariffs. A work around, albeit with an 18 month delay, has been found. DL cares more about cash flow.

This will be as much about the engine service package too. CFM and Pratt will have to deal.

If nobody deals, DL will buy used and rebid again. Since the orders will be few for a bit, both will want this order.

Lightsaber



Hey now. That's the job of us enthusiasts! To be enthused! This whole saga has shown Delta to be either really lucky or extremely shrewd, or both! They got 75 airplanes for rock-bottom pricing and probably 50 really cheap options too. Nobody else will get that pricing for the CSeries again. I think the delivery date depends entirely on the case. If the tariffs stick, they delay till the Mobile FAL is up. If not, deliveries start rolling from Montreal.

But for this RFP, DL would be fools not to seek maximum leverage. And Airbus would be fools not to offer something above and beyond just the 320/321 fleet. They all want to press their advantage. Maybe Boeing offers cheaper widebodies as sweeteners. Who knows.
 
flyabr
Posts: 854
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 11:42 am

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:18 am

william wrote:
Boeing and Delta have not been BFFs since Delta's bankruptcy. Boeing did not exactly play nice when Delta was negotiating with its creditors.


Yet DL ordered something like 150 739ERs from BA post bankruptcy.
 
bunumuring
Posts: 2531
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:56 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:17 am

Hey lightsaber,
Qantas hasn't requested a formal RFP yet but Alan Joyce just this week in Seattle mentioned it's highly anticipated MAX versus neo decision to replace (at least) 75 x 737-800s.... It will probably start off as a smaller order but I reckon over time over one hundred of the winning jet could end up in Qantas and JetConnect's fleets.
And I believe that a similar battle will take place within Air France-KLM in the near future....
Cheers,
Bunumuring
I just wanna live while I'm alive!
 
DeltaB717
Posts: 1686
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:49 am

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:54 am

bunumuring wrote:
Hey lightsaber,
Qantas hasn't requested a formal RFP yet but Alan Joyce just this week in Seattle mentioned it's highly anticipated MAX versus neo decision to replace (at least) 75 x 737-800s.... It will probably start off as a smaller order but I reckon over time over one hundred of the winning jet could end up in Qantas and JetConnect's fleets.
And I believe that a similar battle will take place within Air France-KLM in the near future....
Cheers,
Bunumuring


QF would be crazy not to include in their RFP an eventual replacement for the QLink B717 and F100 fleets - they could then decide, obviously, not to do anything about that part of the RFP if it didn't elicit anything that suits them, or they could place a forward-looking order for, say, the early- to mid-2020s.
 
hz747300
Posts: 2381
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:59 am

Arion640 wrote:

I find Emirates pretty impressive, regardless if you think they are subsided. Huge fleet of A380's, best all rounder economy product in the world. Dubai is now one of the busiest airports in the world, no airline can say they have pretty much single handily taken an airport to that level.

Have you ever flown Emirates?


I agree with most of that, but Dubai is terrible. It'll all be solved with the new airport, but I notice now that the EK website has added about 1 hour to the 'flight time' between HK & Dubai. The delays in Dubai are terrible. The terminal is beautiful, I do not disagree. The service on EK is very nice. The pilots (from PPRUNE) seem disgruntled though.
Keep on truckin'...
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13885
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:53 am

flyabr wrote:
william wrote:
Boeing and Delta have not been BFFs since Delta's bankruptcy. Boeing did not exactly play nice when Delta was negotiating with its creditors.


Yet DL ordered something like 150 739ERs from BA post bankruptcy.


That's my point too. They first ordered the 737-900ER in 2011 and have been expanding the order as recently as April of this year when they added an additional 10 to the order. Since their merger/bankruptcy DL has actually been pretty balanced with their narrowbody orders, Boeing's 739 having a slight edge over Airbus's A321. It's the widebody orders where DL has gone all Airbus, which I think was a huge mistake. I think for what DL is trying to do in SEA, LAX etc. ,especially to the Pacific, I think the 787 would have been a better aircraft. A mix of 789s for Pacific, and 78Js for Trans-Atlantic from JFK/ATL would have combined with a A350 order quite well.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17675
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:19 pm

STT757 wrote:
[have been expanding the order as recently as April of this year when they added an additional 10 to the order.


Boeing lists nothing ordered by DL since Dec 2015. Are these the frames that Boeing had a 'put' order on? Are they listed as unidentified?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
Momo1435
Posts: 994
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:33 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:25 pm

scbriml wrote:
STT757 wrote:
[have been expanding the order as recently as April of this year when they added an additional 10 to the order.


Boeing lists nothing ordered by DL since Dec 2015. Are these the frames that Boeing had a 'put' order on? Are they listed as unidentified?

It's indeed listed as unidentified. Probably because Boeing used their right to firm up "Put Options", which caused some discussion.

See the thread on this order for more info and the discussion on this deal:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1360539
 
flyabr
Posts: 854
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 11:42 am

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:03 pm

STT757 wrote:
It's the widebody orders where DL has gone all Airbus, which I think was a huge mistake. I think for what DL is trying to do in SEA, LAX etc. ,especially to the Pacific, I think the 787 would have been a better aircraft. A mix of 789s for Pacific, and 78Js for Trans-Atlantic from JFK/ATL would have combined with a A350 order quite well.


A huge mistake? DL already has 40+ A330CEOs on the property. Adding 25 more of an upgraded model seems logical to me. As for the 787-10, I wouldn't be shocked to see DL get a few o these for hub to hub TATL flying. Then again, would it be worth it to introduce a new type into the fleet just for a few planes?? Lastly, flying A359 or 789 TPAC is probably a wash economically, with the A359 adding a bit of extra capacity and lift.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3222
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:14 pm

What if Delta were to ask Boeing to withdraw its complaint so that ............. ?
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9199
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:04 pm

A complaint that has already been ruled on, or do you mean for the ruling body to withdraw its ruling?
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9609
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:10 pm

The ruling body is not going to withdraw its ruling because a private company who wasn't the complainant or even the subject of the complaint politely asked them to. The time for Delta to try and get Boeing to drop the complaint was back in the Spring when Boeing actually filed the complaint, not now.
 
User avatar
Narfish641
Posts: 477
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:14 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:31 pm

tlecam wrote:
I wonder which existing fleet replacements they're going after? They have 321 and 739's on order, along with the CS100. This seems to be targeting the 150-160 seat gauge?


My first thought of the CS100 series is that it would be the successor of the 737-700. Of course that would of been dumb since the 737-700 is only 9-11 years old (Given the fact that the age doesn't matter but it is making itself useful) so I doubt Delta would do that since they have good range to and from the Caribbean and parts of Mexico. At the same time however the CS100 offers 3,100 nm over 3,010 from the 737-700, which is a huge step and most likely offer new routes in such a small aircraft with bigger range. Still I doubt, but would be pretty interesting.
Flew on:
SWA 737 738
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2174
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:37 pm

Narfish641 wrote:
At the same time however the CS100 offers 3,100 nm over 3,010 from the 737-700, which is a huge step and most likely offer new routes in such a small aircraft with bigger range.


3,010 to 3,100 is not a huge increase. Its less than 3%.
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:39 pm

If the CS100 order is delayed due to the tariff issue, how does that change the RFP? DL will now have a delay of two years. They will have to defer some retirements and then face a large ramp in capex as they take CSeries and whatever they buy from this RFP.
 
User avatar
ual747den
Posts: 1603
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:29 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:55 pm

Arion640 wrote:
1900Driver wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Hmmmm most sucessfull airline on the planet? What's your measure of success?

I think that crown would possibly go to Ryanair.

Lufthansa group because of there successful turnarounds? Emirates taking DXB to where it is today? Could be anybody depending on your view.


Financially.. one of the most successful. Ryanair takes the LCC crown.

https://www.thestreet.com/story/1385205 ... -says.html

I can’t believe you would actually bring up Emirates into the fold.


I find Emirates pretty impressive, regardless if you think they are subsided. Huge fleet of A380's, best all rounder economy product in the world. Dubai is now one of the busiest airports in the world, no airline can say they have pretty much single handily taken an airport to that level.

Have you ever flown Emirates?


Emirates is not your typical airline and its concept is not just about being an airline in the traditional sense. I don't think that there is really any doubt in anyone's mind that their success comes from the fact that they were/are heavily subsidized by the government. Regardless of that fact EK is still an exceptional airline that has done a lot to change and innovate the industry.
Frontier Airlines - Low Fares Done Right
 
777Mech
Posts: 802
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:42 pm

STT757 wrote:
flyabr wrote:
william wrote:
Boeing and Delta have not been BFFs since Delta's bankruptcy. Boeing did not exactly play nice when Delta was negotiating with its creditors.


Yet DL ordered something like 150 739ERs from BA post bankruptcy.


That's my point too. They first ordered the 737-900ER in 2011 and have been expanding the order as recently as April of this year when they added an additional 10 to the order. Since their merger/bankruptcy DL has actually been pretty balanced with their narrowbody orders, Boeing's 739 having a slight edge over Airbus's A321. It's the widebody orders where DL has gone all Airbus, which I think was a huge mistake. I think for what DL is trying to do in SEA, LAX etc. ,especially to the Pacific, I think the 787 would have been a better aircraft. A mix of 789s for Pacific, and 78Js for Trans-Atlantic from JFK/ATL would have combined with a A350 order quite well.


It was actually Boeing who made them take the options for the 10 aircraft.
 
chiad
Posts: 1244
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:24 pm

Delta to order about 100 single-aisle planes

Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:53 am

Bloomberg reports that Delta Airlines is nearing an order for about 100 single-aisle planes.
Quote:
"Delta is considering Boeing’s 737 Max 8 and bigger Max 10, along with the Airbus A320neo and larger A321neo aircraft"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... haul-fleet
 
pabloeing
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:00 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:03 am

¿Order in Dubai air show?
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17675
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:09 am

pabloeing wrote:
¿Order in Dubai air show?


I don't think so, it hasn't been Delta's style to date. But we'll soon know!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
Jayafe
Posts: 1215
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:12 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:13 am

Unless the slot availability of the A32x is a problem, I dont see DL ordering 100 Boeings just a few weeks after what happened in Canada....
 
User avatar
frigatebird
Posts: 1689
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:02 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:47 am

Jayafe wrote:
Unless the slot availability of the A32x is a problem, I dont see DL ordering 100 Boeings just a few weeks after what happened in Canada....

DL will order what's best for them... They would be silly to turn down a better offer from Boeing just out of spite. Airbus would be laughing all the way to the bank if they did.

That said, if neither offer don't show a clear advantage over the other, I expect DL will be leaning towards ordering Airbus. But Boeing will know how low Airbus can go with the knowledge of the Airbus-AA deal, will they be able to take advantage?
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
chiki
Posts: 352
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:32 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:00 am

Jayafe wrote:
Unless the slot availability of the A32x is a problem, I dont see DL ordering 100 Boeings just a few weeks after what happened in Canada....

If price is right why not, DL might use this as a bargaining chip with BA
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 13282
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:15 am

Boeing 737-10 at introduction pricing / long term MRO support could be what it takes to prevent A321 further taking over. It won't be a bad aircraft, contrary, commonality with the -900ER fleet would be a plus. When it comes to hot/ and or high destinations they have ~100 A321s on order, so that wouldn't be a major issue.. https://youtu.be/7bzz74of1AE
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
Momo1435
Posts: 994
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:33 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:20 am

pabloeing wrote:
¿Order in Dubai air show?

Considering Delta's issues with the ME3 carriers there's zero chance that Delta want to have anything to do with the Dubai Airshow.


As for the Bombardier situation impacting this deal. Delta reaction to the tarrifs has been very restrained, just criticizing them without going into counter attack mode. Of course it will not be completely ignored during the sales talks, but I could even see Delta using it to get a better offer from both Boeing and Airbus.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 8

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos