TigerFlyer
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:51 pm

Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Tue May 30, 2017 5:04 pm

nighthawk wrote:
While there can be a number of operational reasons for this, many of which have been mentioned, there is another factor that no-one has mentioned. There's a term for it in economics, which I cant remember right now, but basically its to avoid splitting the market.

Take for example two flights, one operating in the morning, and one operating in the evening.

The morning flight appeals more to those who would prefer to fly in the morning, and the evening flight appeals more to those that prefer to fly in the evening. You've split the market in half, so your possible catchment has decreased.

If, however, you schedule both flights for the same time, people have no choice but to fly when you say, and so timing ceases to become a decisive factor and instead you can target the entire market. You can then compete with the other airline on other means, such as price, service etc, rather than just on time.


This is an incorrect application of the economic game theory as applied to the airline industry. You want time of day coverage in as many time time channels as you can get. Every market of commercial significance has multiple daily flights to multiple competing hubs. If you concentrate, say, DTW-MCI nonstop service on DL into a single morning time channel, passengers wanting to travel in the afternoon or evening are going to take a connecting flight on AA or UA over ORD. Each time channel is a different sub-market, and the more flights you can offer in a given city-pair the greater overall share you command. For competing nonstops, if one carrier offers 3 flights, and another 4, the carrier offering 4 flights will have a greater than 25% share advantage because customers value frequency and choice. Known as the S-curve effect.

On the other hand, in a competitive nonstop market, you want to be on top of your competitor and not "split" the market. You want your loyal customers to choose you, not to the other guy, if he happens to offer a schedule that might be slightly more convenient.

A good example is the DCA-LGA shuttle. Back in the day, Eastern and Pan Am both operated it. One on the hour, one on the half hour. You don't have to purchase in advance, so which one you took depended on when your cab reached the airport. Today DL and AA schedule on top of each other at the top of the hour, forcing a competitive choice in the same time channel. It may not be optimal from a consumer perspective but it is what is most competitively efficient.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Tue May 30, 2017 5:23 pm

ahj2000 wrote:
IADCA wrote:
ojjunior wrote:
Yeah you're right... but still pretty much same time, isn't it?


They do that on a few routes - SCL being another example, where two of the flights are 15 minutes apart (leave PTY at 1544 and 1600 on current schedule I thidnk). I assume with CM it's just a consequence of not having aircraft larger than 738s and operating a hub that relies heavily on timing connections. I think FI has a few of these same-carrier "wingtip" flights for similar reasons - more demand than a 757 can take and limited availability of the 753 and 767s.

Mildly off topic but could Copa be interested in either the 739ER or the MOM? Seems like they could use it...

I think COPA is pretty out of range. MOM could keep them growing.
 
jplatts
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Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Tue May 30, 2017 6:07 pm

1) Competition
2) In some cases, the existence of demand for more than 1 nonstop flight around the same time period
3) Access to connections that another airline cannot provide
 
aliceta
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Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:01 am

Copa has 2 of its frequencies PTY-GRU departing exactly at the same time. Daily.
 
ctrabs0114
Posts: 987
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Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:59 am

jco613 wrote:
Wn does this on a few routes, I'll see flights leaving within an hour of another. For example I am flipping fll-TPA next week. There is a 6:30am, 2:15pm, 4:25pm, 5:30pm, 6:25pm, and 8:15pm. They will do fll-Dca and fll-iad at roughly the same time starting next month.


But, don't the majority of early morning and/or midday WN flights continue on to other destinations? For example, that 630 flight to KTPA could continue on to KHOU, the 1415 flight continues on to KPIT, the 1625 flight continues to KMCI, etc. (I don't know if those are the actual continuation destinations; I'm just using that as an example).
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW, PHL, MIA, LAX; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), B739 (DL), B712 (DL), B752 (AA), B763 (AA), B77W (AA), B789 (AA)
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2travel2know2
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Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:34 pm

aliceta wrote:
Copa has 2 of its frequencies PTY-GRU departing exactly at the same time. Daily.

And to SJO and to MIA.
I'd think the other GRU used to be the VCP flight.

As for transatlantic flights flying west morning and east-bound evening/night it has to do more with aircraft utilization.
And northbound, southbound red-eyes the same.. Daytime flights like such work only in markets with big O/D traffic.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
gunnerman
Posts: 926
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Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:50 pm

nighthawk wrote:
While there can be a number of operational reasons for this, many of which have been mentioned, there is another factor that no-one has mentioned. There's a term for it in economics, which I cant remember right now, but basically its to avoid splitting the market.

Take for example two flights, one operating in the morning, and one operating in the evening.

The morning flight appeals more to those who would prefer to fly in the morning, and the evening flight appeals more to those that prefer to fly in the evening. You've split the market in half, so your possible catchment has decreased.

If, however, you schedule both flights for the same time, people have no choice but to fly when you say, and so timing ceases to become a decisive factor and instead you can target the entire market. You can then compete with the other airline on other means, such as price, service etc, rather than just on time.

Surely your statement is true if another airline only flies at the same time as you do, e.g. in the morning, so you are both fighting over the same market. But if another airline also offers evening flights, then there are two markets and you have left that evening market to your compeititor.
 
FSDan
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Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:15 pm

2travel2know2 wrote:
aliceta wrote:
Copa has 2 of its frequencies PTY-GRU departing exactly at the same time. Daily.

And to SJO and to MIA.
I'd think the other GRU used to be the VCP flight.

As for transatlantic flights flying west morning and east-bound evening/night it has to do more with aircraft utilization.
And northbound, southbound red-eyes the same.. Daytime flights like such work only in markets with big O/D traffic.


For CM, this might be an indication that they could use a widebody or two in their fleet. But I suppose until they run out of gates at PTY there isn't much reason to complicate their simple fleet more than they have to.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
2travel2know2
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Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:56 pm

FSDan wrote:
2travel2know2 wrote:
aliceta wrote:
Copa has 2 of its frequencies PTY-GRU departing exactly at the same time. Daily.

And to SJO and to MIA.
I'd think the other GRU used to be the VCP flight.

As for transatlantic flights flying west morning and east-bound evening/night it has to do more with aircraft utilization.
And northbound, southbound red-eyes the same.. Daytime flights like such work only in markets with big O/D traffic.


For CM, this might be an indication that they could use a widebody or two in their fleet. But I suppose until they run out of gates at PTY there isn't much reason to complicate their simple fleet more than they have to.

CM is about frequency. Having wide-body aircraft would mean less frequencies. It's expected that sooner or later CM will be forced to add 2-4 new hub banks regardless of the extra gates at the new terminal opening soon.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:03 pm

stl07 wrote:
I have always wondered why the same airline will fly routes at the same time (besides hub to hub for more frequency). It seems it just gives other airlines more business.
Ex.
WN STL-Bay Area(SFO,OAK) 2x daily both flights leave at 1:50
as opposed to UA also 2x daily but morning and evening

Madrid-Barcelona shuttle 2x on the hour instead of every 30 minutes


WN STL-OAK & STL-SFO.
They are different airports that cater to some, but not all of the same crowd. I like avoiding SFO's congestion when I fly into the area.
You made it sound like 2 flights at once to a single airport which would be odd, but as above only say 50% of each airports passenger markets probably overlap. If I was going to Apples offices I'd fly into SJC as the other two would be a more congested drive.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:09 pm

ASQ400 wrote:
aklrno wrote:
NZ run their North American west coasts flight to Auckland all in the evening around the same time. That gives plenty of time for inbound connects from elsewhere in North America to get to the coast, and arrives in NZ in the early morning for connections in the Australasian area. The planes can make a round trip to Australia if needed, and be back for a late night departure back to North America. Eastbound the same reasoning, leave late in the evening for inbound connections and arrive in time for onward connections.

No other times make any sense at all. Good use of the aircraft and best options for passengers.

There's a difference. They aren't flying 2 planes out of the same North American airport at the same time.


There is also the fact that the 2 flights leaving STL for the bay area are going to "2" different airports across the bay from each other. Also if you want to drive from one airport to the other another you would pull your haircut before getting there. It's not entirely the same market.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:15 pm

ZKOXA wrote:
The strangest I have come across is the route between Da Nang to Hanoi. Between 8:10pm and 9:10pm departure, at least 3 flights on Vietnam Airlines operate with the most 4 on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. For example on Wednesday, flights leave at 8:30pm, 8:50pm, 8:55pm and 9:10pm. I would really like to know why? The route is busy but why are there so many flights leaving in this window?

Also involving Da Nang, daily on Vietjet Air, flights from Da Nang to Ho Chi Minh City between 11:40pm and 11:50pm, there are 4 flights daily.

ZKOXA

Overnight to casino's. Hawaiians love to fly into LAS & return on the 1:40am flight as it arrives at 6:00am for work the next day.
 
USAOZ
Posts: 443
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:34 am

Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:24 pm

look at SFO & LAX to Australia nonstop or direct via AKL or NAN. Most flights depart between 2130 & 2355, however VA, who only have 5 x B777-300ER's now fly LAX/BNE, LAX/SYD & LAX/MEL & so to offer maximum frequencies, they have put on a midday flight LAX/BNE.

Why ?

Cos with only 5 aircraft, those aircraft can't be in 2 places at once + QF used to fly LAX/SYD at midday & although less popular than late evening departures, they still go reasonable loads.

If a LCC starting flying LAX or SFO(or probably OAK) to Australia, nonstop or direct, it probably wouldn't matter what time they departed USA. If cheaper than existing services people would depart at any time & arrive at any time.

Of course SYD has a 2300-0600 curfew but BNE & MEL don't have any curfew.

Jetstar already fly B787's HNL/SYD in direct competition with big brother Qantas. Being an OZ carrier they could fly HNL/mainland USA & sell that sector in isolation, but believe if they did eg. fly HNL/OAK, they could sell SYD/HNL/stop/HNL/OAK, in a similar way to how they fly SYD/LAX/JFK soon to be changed to BNE/LAX/JFK with a Qf 787.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:07 am

I'm surprised no one has mentioned FI, as they are big on operating wingtip to wingtip service on several of their long haul services in the summer peak travel season.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
Dominion301
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Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:56 am

My personal favourite is YOW-YFB. There are a total of two daily flights on this route. 1 by 5T and the other by 7F. Currently they both have scheduled departure times of 09:15.
 
nomorerjs
Posts: 892
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:24 am

Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:46 am

Simple, it’s when people (high $ business travelers) want to go.

Look at key business routes. AA / DL / UA will have flights near each other. Connecting traffic via a dual hub (ORD or DEN), may be similar, but it’s due to the connecting bank.
 
MRYapproach
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:10 am

Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:37 am

shantahan wrote:
EVA Airways runs LAX-TPE daily at 1205am and 1230am. My guess there is demand.


Same for SFO-TPE, but about an hour later. Depending on seasonal winds and daylight savings, these flights leave 12:30 AM - 1:30 AM. Some days of the week it's just one flight, other two. The funny part is that CI also runs 1-2 flights/day AT THE SAME TIME. CI used to run just one 747s, but now that they are also doing 777s (or is it A350s yet?) they need to run two some days.

Seems crazy, but the timing is actually perfect. What seems to be constant is arriving 5:30-6:00 AM, perfect for those of us who travel for business: I can be anywhere in Taiwan for meetings by 9 AM. Also, for the hundredth time, EVA Elite cabin is the best long haul value ever.

For shorter trans-Pacific flights like Japan or Korea, it's just not an option. 3 AM departures just don't make sense. But heading further west on longer flights (HK, OZ, NZ?) it is perfect. Also plenty of time to connect for anywhere in NA at the hubs like SFO/LAX.
 
YLWbased
Posts: 900
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Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:38 am

Not exactly duplicates, but HKG have loads of those:

CX/KA's HKG-TPE departure goes like this:

0830 CX474
0910 CX530
1000 CX450
1025 CX494
1200 CX406
1305 CX564
1325 CX522
1405 CX420
1435 CX466
1640 CX448
1740 CX470
1830 KA482
1845 CX402
1930 CX464
2000 CX468
2255 CX408

CX To Tokyo:
0855 CX548 NRT
0905 CX504 HND

To Osaka Kansai:
0815 UO3898
0855 UO1012
0915 UO686

0755 CX594
0800 CX562

To Shanghai:

1000 KA858 SHA
1000 KA876 PVG
1500 KA890 PVG
1530 KA834 PVG
1730 CX364 PVG
1800 KA872 PVG

To me, it's simple, if there's demand, there's supply.

YLWbased
Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
 
SCFirefighter
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:42 am

Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:47 am

Here’s a great video explanation of “Why”

https://youtu.be/dGXahSnA_oA
 
346fetish
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:00 am

Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:20 pm

Any reasons why joint-venture partners JL and AY have wingtip ops out of HEL for NRT?
"BA have got waterfalls in their head office. The only time we have waterfalls in the Ryanair office is when the toilet leaks."
 
gwrudolph
Posts: 399
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Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:39 pm

United used to do a lot of wingtip flying hub to hub (sometimes departing at the exact same time). I haven't seen it as much lately, but sometimes In the summer on ORD-SFO or SFO-ORD you'll see two flights within 15 mins of each other.
 
mdavies06
Posts: 542
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:28 pm

Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:55 pm

346fetish wrote:
Any reasons why joint-venture partners JL and AY have wingtip ops out of HEL for NRT?


I guess it has to do with the HEL end which only has two main banks of departure to the Far East and the NRT curfew at night. The midnight departure bank ex-HEL is useless for AY as arrival time into NRT will be in the late afternoon, and this will cause a problem for the inbound back to HEL because NRT has a 10pm curfew at night (meaning arrival into HEL will be say 2am local(?) in HEL). For JL, the midnight departure bank ex-HEL is not chosen probably because the inbound into HEL must first arrive during mid afternoon into HEL and the outbound back to NRT will naturally be in the mid-afternoon as well (as it meets a large inbound bank of arrivals from across Europe on AY).
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:10 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I have always wondered why airlines fly routes at the same time (besides hub to hub for more frequency). It seems it just gives other airlines more business.
Ex.
WN STL-Bay Area(SFO,OAK) 2x daily both flights leave at 1:50
UA also 2x daily but morning and evening

Madrid-Barcelona shuttle 2x on the hour instead of every 30 minutes


As someone who has STL as his home airport and travels to the bay area frequently (and can use either airport), this is super annoying. I have had days where they are even at the gates next to each other. I don't get why they don't do a morning and an evening or at least keep one at 1:50 and move the other one to 5 pm or later. UA does have a morning and evening flight but I like WN better. Like others mentioned I am sure there is a good reason for it (connections) but it still annoys me. Coming back it is the same way. One leaves at 7 am and one at 9 am. They finally are spreading the return flights out a little in their newest couple schedules. I would like to be able to leave STL after work and come home on Sunday/Monday without getting up super early and still flying them nonstop. My next couple trips out there I am doing layovers because of the timing.


But where did those planes come from and where are they going next? If a plane that's twice as large replaced the two aircraft did that one route, who would fill that plane the rest of the day?
 
Samrnpage
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:02 pm

Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:13 pm

Its to do with hub times, demand and slots. Sometimes 2 A320/737s are more profitable than 1 A330 as well.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9307
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Why do airlines fly routes at the same time?

Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:28 pm

simairlinenet wrote:
The classic economic example is called Hotelling's Game. Game theory explains that it's optimal for companies to locate at the center of demand, but not for society as a whole.

More details here: https://mindyourdecisions.com/blog/2008 ... -hotelling’s-game-or-why-gas-stations-have-competitors-nearby/


Hotel is less of an issue. You come from afar and only once to use it.

More irksome with provisions for a local cluster of places. 5 pharmacies all in the same place in a cluster of 5 villages/little towns
instead of one pharmacy each. think about all the unnecessary travel for customers, elderly asking for help to have access .... .
Imagine the ancillary cost that has no direct impact on business profits.

May make business sense but not "Volkswirschaft" sense.
Murphy is an optimist

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