And repaint all the aircraft in Vistara livery?

Entire Tata Group had only one cash cow shoring up rest of the group called TCS and Trump put it on a short leash.

All this drama could be to just lure others.

Qatar has the means and immediate need, sell 100% why only 51%.

I am aware this is a very long shot, but the TATAs reacquiring Air India will be the prefect conclusion to this saga.

rebr wrote:

And repaint all the aircraft in Vistara livery?

Vistara India sounds nice, like Avianca Colombia, Garuda Indonesia etc.

They were the original owner of the airline which was taken over by the Government of India....so coming to the full circle!

Hope they work with the Unions etc. and make it a profitable and prestigious brand once they were.

Just in: AI to airlift Indians stuck in Qatar due to blockade

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/nri/ ... 260792.cms

Would a private AI do this?

anshabhi wrote:

Just in: AI to airlift Indians stuck in Qatar due to blockade

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/nri/ ... 260792.cms

Would a private AI do this?

I don't see why not if the government charters their planes.

Tony Fernandes says received overseas citizen of India (OCI) certificate. His father is of Goan origin.
He can now own upto 100% in AirAsia India, and Tata Group could exit.

http://www.forbesindia.com/article/spec ... es/47309/1

So the current master plan is
Koh gets OCI,
Modi writes off $4B-$5B debt
TATA/SIA gets AI.
Vistara brand is history
Kapoor gets AI twitter handle !!!

Good
AI gets Vistara LEAP NEOs
Domestic market share jumps to whopping 17%

Bad
Neither Tata nor SIA doesn't know how to run an Indian Airline. For that matter even EY and Tony in the same boat.
Even if Modi clears current debt, TATA/SIA cannot infuse $1B-$2B working capital to keep AI running.
6E will it new AI for breakfast.

One good thing wth BJP, all scams will be related to two politicians and one think tank. Much easier for CBI to investigate.

Ashwani Lohani could return to Railways

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... r-4720644/

Probably off topic, but in the case that Tata actually acquires Air India, is their any chance to see them start long-hauls from BOM or BLR? There are many higher-yielding routes on both of these sectors, as the fixation on DEL will probably wane.

Irehdna wrote:

Probably off topic, but in the case that Tata actually acquires Air India, is their any chance to see them start long-hauls from BOM or BLR? There are many higher-yielding routes on both of these sectors, as the fixation on DEL will probably wane.

Difficult to comment. SQ would also own 49%.
I think it depends on what kind of brand would they able to build around AI, and if they are able to make nonstops better than one stops over ME.

Just curious how it will exactly work if Tata does acquire AI.....
SQ+Tata already own Vistara. Now they have AI as well. Neither is profitable (UK's new but still & AI well....). And India isn't exactly the land of successful airline mergers come to think of it.

Is Tata being foolish on account of nostalgia or is the GoI so desperate to rid the white elephant?

Union Cabinet approves AI disinvestment!

AI is officially up for sale now!

VTORD wrote:

Just curious how it will exactly work if Tata does acquire AI.....
SQ+Tata already own Vistara. Now they have AI as well. Neither is profitable (UK's new but still & AI well....). And India isn't exactly the land of successful airline mergers come to think of it.

Is Tata being foolish on account of nostalgia or is the GoI so desperate to rid the white elephant?

3 Reasons why Tata may be interested in AI:
http://www.livemint.com/Companies/li9pf ... gapor.html

I find this article interesting.

Even with all the said mismanagement, AI is operationally profitable, though debt eats up its net profit. Both have tremendous potential for improvement.

Off topic but awesome

Potential buyer of Air India says, AI air hostesses will be retained as
Air-Grandma & they will read bedtime stories to the kids in planes

https://twitter.com/Ra_Bies/status/880068074770022400

GoI approved the study, not the sale. Arun Jaitley will be leading the study and with his finance and accounting skills, I would say AI is toast.

On an average Indian Banks are writing off bad debts to the extent of $5Billion to $10 Billion a year. I guess $4 Billion good debt is no big deal.

A few more facts here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40435922

"India will form a committee to decide on the details, including the size of the government's stake to be sold, he said."
"Air India has 14.6% of the domestic air travel market."

I can't see through the smoke, Air India, Alitalia

readytotaxi wrote:

A few more facts here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40435922

"India will form a committee to decide on the details, including the size of the government's stake to be sold, he said."
"Air India has 14.6% of the domestic air travel market."

I can't see through the smoke, Air India, Alitalia

IMHO, BBC isn't the best source for India related news. you should go to www.livemint.com for best coverage on Indian airlines related news and www.toi.in for general news.

The article has no mention about the fact that Niti Ayog has set a deadline of 6 months to completely privatize Air India.
Further, why AI disinvestment is crucial for the current govt to cast its image as a reformer and to iron its re-election in 2019.

anshabhi wrote:

readytotaxi wrote:

A few more facts here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40435922

"India will form a committee to decide on the details, including the size of the government's stake to be sold, he said."
"Air India has 14.6% of the domestic air travel market."

I can't see through the smoke, Air India, Alitalia

IMHO, BBC isn't the best source for India related news. you should go to livemint.com for best coverage on Indian airlins related news and toi.in for general news.

The article has no mention about the fact that Niti Ayog has set a deadline of 6 months to completely privatize Air India.

I would say one thing, Indians tricked even BBC with their parliamentary lingo.

Second, unconstitutional think tanks don't have the authority to set any deadlines. Planning Commission was a legal entity, replaced with friends and family.

Niti Ayog works. I had never even heard about Planning commision until it was dismissed.

Avoid BBC for Indian reports. I repeat.

anshabhi wrote:

Despite all the talks of freedom of expression, they have banned me and many other Indians from their fb page for pointing out grave discrepancies in their stories.

Off-topic advise. Freedom of speech has no place on Social Media. Each site is their own sand castle.

[photoid][/photoid]

Irehdna wrote:

Probably off topic, but in the case that Tata actually acquires Air India, is their any chance to see them start long-hauls from BOM or BLR? There are many higher-yielding routes on both of these sectors, as the fixation on DEL will probably wane.

Actually even Vistara said they will have a Delhi hub and fly other routes where needed (meaning O&D routes that are high yield routes). Having a hub is not a fixation it's called a modern aviation business plan. 9W hubs at BOM. Makes total sense. 9W flies some key routes out of DEL, BLR, MAA, Kerela and AI does the same in BOM, AMD, the South etc. What needs to wane is every corner of India thinking their immigrants to the various corners of the world mean a profitable nonstop flights should exist. I can't think of one really point to point long haul outside of BOM & DEL (by an Indian or foreign carrier). AI's AMD-LHR-EWR is probably the closest although I feel like politics rather than profit fuels that flight. Maybe BA's flights from MAA, HYD, BLR to LHR but I bet those routes could never survive without US connecting traffic.

anshabhi wrote:

Niti Ayog works. I had never even heard about Planning commision until it was dismissed.

Avoid BBC for Indian reports. I repeat.

That you had not heard of a government body that has been around since 1950 is your fault not a reflection of the validity of such a body!

Are you suggesting that BBC deliberately misqouted Arun Jaitley? C'mon!! Dude you need to be a bit less cavalier and presumptuous in your opinions.

CaliguyNYC wrote:

What needs to wane is every corner of India thinking their immigrants to the various corners of the world mean a profitable nonstop flights should exist. I can't think of one really point to point long haul outside of BOM & DEL (by an Indian or foreign carrier). AI's AMD-LHR-EWR is probably the closest although I feel like politics rather than profit fuels that flight. Maybe BA's flights from MAA, HYD, BLR to LHR but I bet those routes could never survive without US connecting traffic.

CaliguyNYC wrote:

What needs to wane is every corner of India thinking their immigrants to the various corners of the world mean a profitable nonstop flights should exist. I can't think of one really point to point long haul outside of BOM & DEL (by an Indian or foreign carrier). AI's AMD-LHR-EWR is probably the closest although I feel like politics rather than profit fuels that flight. Maybe BA's flights from MAA, HYD, BLR to LHR but I bet those routes could never survive without US connecting traffic.

ATQ-BHX/YYZ is one market, but IMO it would be too low-yielding to survive. BLR-SFO is a higher-yielding sector, but it is extremely long, and a profitable non-stop flight between the two cities may be impossible. However, I'm surprised BOM-ORD doesn't have non-stop flight. There is a decent BOM/HYD/MAA population based in the Chicago area, and coupled with the city's financial sector there could be a case for such a flight. With BOM-EWR/YYZ existing, one would think ORD has potential too.

Two things can happen with privatised AI: make DEL their only hub, or add high-yield routes from BOM/BLR. It would be interesting on which they prefer.

It may be very possible that a privatised AI thickens its better-performing routes and cuts its money-burners. For example, 9W as a private company has chosen to maximize flights to high yield destinations like LHR and CDG, at the expense of adding North America nonstops.

IMO BOM-FRA and BLR-MUC (with LH codeshares) seem like golden routes for AI to get high-yields without going through their DEL hub. Additionally, I wouldn't be surprised if 3x DEL-LHR or added services on DEL-BKK/HKG begin. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised AMD-LHR-EWR and BOM-LHR are cut. AMD-LHR-EWR while having a high demand, is very low yielding. BOM-LHR seems like a good flight until you take into account AI's very poor timing and lack of a real network at either BOM or LHR, which forces them to undercut 9W and BA to fill up their planes.

Isn't there a Modi's dream airport in Gujarat. Maybe private AI can hub there. IMHO, Modi-Jaitley didn't like Lohani's comments about government created debt burden/merger issues and started this process (or) they want to add a major achievement to their administration.

If Indians ignore the AI brand nostalgia, 100% divestment to Qatar is the best option. Partial divestment will not work because at some point tax payers have to pump equity as partial owners.

Tata Group has $25 Billion debt, they will not take $8 Billion more.

IMO, AI's only shot to succeed is to capitalize on the O&D non stop traffic. For example, DEL-SFO, BLR-SFO, BOM-LHR etc. Centralizing on one hub is a losing proposition.. I would much rather fly SFO-DOH-BLR and fly QR as opposed to SFO-DEL-BLR if I need to connect.

AI only stands to survive if they can have high yield routes and capture the non stop traffic.

Here's some better reporting on the decision than the clueless idiots at BBC

http://www.livemint.com/Companies/Gnfl2 ... itley.html

CaliguyNYC wrote:

What needs to wane is every corner of India thinking their immigrants to the various corners of the world mean a profitable nonstop flights should exist. I can't think of one really point to point long haul outside of BOM & DEL (by an Indian or foreign carrier). AI's AMD-LHR-EWR is probably the closest although I feel like politics rather than profit fuels that flight. Maybe BA's flights from MAA, HYD, BLR to LHR but I bet those routes could never survive without US connecting traffic.

Only because you look from a North American prism at the situation. AI flies many O&D routes not from BOM or DEL that I'm sure do well for them. They even use widebody aircraft on such routes: MAA-SIN / COK-DXB, etc. etc.

But go on, tell us how Baltimore or Nashville should be connected to India because hey, there are a lot of Indians there.

Irehdna wrote:

Two things can happen with privatised AI: make DEL their only hub, or add high-yield routes from BOM/BLR. It would be interesting on which they prefer.

It may be very possible that a privatised AI thickens its better-performing routes and cuts its money-burners. For example, 9W as a private company has chosen to maximize flights to high yield destinations like LHR and CDG, at the expense of adding North America nonstops.

IMO BOM-FRA and BLR-MUC (with LH codeshares) seem like golden routes for AI to get high-yields without going through their DEL hub. Additionally, I wouldn't be surprised if 3x DEL-LHR or added services on DEL-BKK/HKG begin. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised AMD-LHR-EWR and BOM-LHR are cut. AMD-LHR-EWR while having a high demand, is very low yielding. BOM-LHR seems like a good flight until you take into account AI's very poor timing and lack of a real network at either BOM or LHR, which forces them to undercut 9W and BA to fill up their planes.

AI was supposed to start 3x Weekly BOM-FRA and BOM-NBO in July. Any idea if the plan is still on ?

killswitch13 wrote:

IndiGo expresses interest in buying stake in Air India

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/indigo-shows-interest-in-buying-stake-in-air-india/articleshow/59367382.cms

IndiGo is going crazy these days!!! ATRs and now AI !!

For the industry, it would be amazing however, if this deal goes through. 2 very large competitors will unite which would mean lesser competition and a little better health for the industry.

I wonder how will they manage their WB business though, and the fact that they are a full service carrier.

IndiGo's expression of interest wipes out all the doubts regarding potential of AI.

Indigo is not a bad idea as long as AI doesn't pull it down.

Patanjali will be interesting, Rakshak ground handling, Sevikas as cabin crew and strict vegan food. 14% market share will go down to 3%.

dtw2hyd wrote:

Indigo is not a bad idea as long as AI doesn't pull it down.

Patanjali will be interesting, Rakshak ground handling, Sevikas as cabin crew and strict vegan food. 14% market share will go down to 3%.

Times now has a few more details:

IndiGo said in a letter it would be interested in buying out the International operations of Air India and its low-cost wing, Air India Express.
If that was not possible, it would like to buy the entire Air India flight operations, including domestic, IndiGo President Aditya Ghosh said in the letter.

http://www.timesnow.tv/business-economy ... ghts/64577

Clearly IndiGo believes that the market out of India is the 'no-frills' one, providing connectivity from secondary cities to other destinations. Other destinations, now include, Europe, N. America, SE Asia and so forth.

Indian aviation is coming of age. Went from Tata run elitist to babu run sarkari durbar to finally a market based business!

Wonder if this will bring Qatar out of the wood-work.

Privatization would be great for AI. Then they might actually turn into an airline that the country would be proud of.

... or revert to the status quo prevailing since JRD Tata was sacked.
http://www.slrao.com/Copy%20of%20Copy%2 ... 01%202.doc

This will be the best thing to happen to Indian aviation in decades if the government manages to pull this off successfully. Hopefully private management will turn things around and improve the carrier's image.

I am confused why Indigo would want AI. Indigo is a LCC and should stick to that. It seems like a waste to buy up all those planes / routes. I think Tata buying Ai and merging with Vistara makes the most sense (assuming the GOI will wipe out the excessive debt of AI in the transaction). India probably only needs two efficient full service carriers for now. So merging Vistara with AI would be a good thing. Vistara was also Dehi based like AI. They would still be able to retain the AI DEL hub and 9W BOM hub.

There is nothing stopping the government from messing with AI right now.

What happens to the loan for $480 Million AI took for VVIP aircraft, now that we know VVIPs are getting new B77Ws, not old B77Ws.

dtw2hyd wrote:

There is nothing stopping the government from messing with AI right now.

What happens to the loan for $480 Million AI took for VVIP aircraft, now that we know VVIPs are getting new B77Ws, not old B77Ws.

The government purchases the aircraft from manufacturer directly, AI is not involved. The government usually goes in for a comprehensive agreement with the manufacturer for the plane and security systems to be installed. Same thing had happened earlier with the three B-737 VVIP aircraft. That is maintained by IAF, but paid for by the govt. Same thing for 777s too. Earlier, when it was initially thought two existing 777-300ERs from AI would be use for VVIP flights, the government had decided to buy them out from AI.

AI didn't take any loan for the VVIP 777s. Please post links if you have it. It usually comes off the defence budget.

6E's letter to MoCA:


https://mobile.twitter.com/nagarjund/st ... 28/photo/1

blrsea wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

There is nothing stopping the government from messing with AI right now.

What happens to the loan for $480 Million AI took for VVIP aircraft, now that we know VVIPs are getting new B77Ws, not old B77Ws.

The government purchases the aircraft from manufacturer directly, AI is not involved. The government usually goes in for a comprehensive agreement with the manufacturer for the plane and security systems to be installed. Same thing had happened earlier with the three B-737 VVIP aircraft. That is maintained by IAF, but paid for by the govt. Same thing for 777s too. Earlier, when it was initially thought two existing 777-300ERs from AI would be use for VVIP flights, the government had decided to buy them out from AI.

AI didn't take any loan for the VVIP 777s. Please post links if you have it. It usually comes off the defence budget.

AI took a $155M loan from Deutsche Bank for advance payment. There is an RFP for that.

http://mmd.airindia.co.in/aimmd/tender/ ... %20300.pdf
http://www.livemint.com/Industry/phieFk ... y-cha.html
http://www.txfnews.com/Tracker/Details/ ... oeing-777s

As they are ready AI will take a loan for rest of the amount.

CaliguyNYC wrote:

I am confused why Indigo would want AI. Indigo is a LCC and should stick to that. It seems like a waste to buy up all those planes / routes. I think Tata buying Ai and merging with Vistara makes the most sense (assuming the GOI will wipe out the excessive debt of AI in the transaction). India probably only needs two efficient full service carriers for now. So merging Vistara with AI would be a good thing. Vistara was also Dehi based like AI. They would still be able to retain the AI DEL hub and 9W BOM hub.

That is eerily sounding like Govt. knows best what to do.

IndiGo, Spice, Vistara, are all big boys. Hopefully, they know how to count their marbles! If they dont, then there is a bankruptcy law that let's you know what your plan B is.

blrsea wrote:

The government purchases the aircraft from manufacturer directly, AI is not involved. The government usually goes in for a comprehensive agreement with the manufacturer for the plane and security systems to be installed. Same thing had happened earlier with the three B-737 VVIP aircraft. That is maintained by IAF, but paid for by the govt.

Good lord! The level of mis/dis-information that Indians are exposed to! Unbelievable!

BawliBooch wrote:

blrsea wrote:

The government purchases the aircraft from manufacturer directly, AI is not involved. The government usually goes in for a comprehensive agreement with the manufacturer for the plane and security systems to be installed. Same thing had happened earlier with the three B-737 VVIP aircraft. That is maintained by IAF, but paid for by the govt.

Good lord! The level of mis/dis-information that Indians are exposed to! Unbelievable!

Not sure what you are talking about. The Boeing 737s are maintained by the IAF, while the 77s will be operated and maintained by IAF.

As regards to the purchase of 777s, please see links below:

Boeing To Supply India’s Air Force One

Indian Defense Acquisition Council (DAC) on Wednesday cleared a proposal to convert two Boeing 777-300ER aircraft for VVIP travel as a replacement to Air India’s Jumbo jets.
The two jets will be tasked to ferry the President, Prime minister and other VVIPs. The aircraft will be equipped with advanced self-protection suites to jam and beat hostile incoming missiles besides having encrypted satellite communication facilities.
...

As regards to the 737s...

India’s own Air Force One takes to the skies

...
The IAF has purchased the aircraft from the US at a cost of Rs.9.34 billion each and they are equipped with state-of-the-art security gadgets and the latest communication systems.
...

blrsea wrote:

...As regards to the purchase of 777s, please see links below:

Typical GoI noise so most cannot figure out what actually happened. That is old news.

#1 IAF B748i
#2 AI B748i
#3 IAF B77Ws,
#4 Old AI B77Ws sold to IAF
#5 Old AI B77Ws operated by AI
and finally
#6 New B77Ws on AI debt.operated by AI.

Guess what, these 3 were ordered in 2006 so last year Thales collected $4 Million from AI because IFE contract lapsed.for the imaginary IFE systems planes supposed to have.

AI has to live with broken IFE systems for the planes it has in service, but pay for an IFE system which no one is watching.

dtw2hyd wrote:

blrsea wrote:

...As regards to the purchase of 777s, please see links below:

Typical GoI noise so most cannot figure out what actually happened. That is old news.

#1 IAF B748i
#2 AI B748i
#3 IAF B77Ws,
#4 Old AI B77Ws sold to IAF
#5 Old AI B77Ws operated by AI
and finally
#6 New B77Ws on AI debt.operated by AI.

Guess what, these 3 were ordered in 2006 so last year Thales collected $4 Million from AI because IFE contract lapsed.for the imaginary IFE systems planes supposed to have.

AI has to live with broken IFE systems for the planes it has in service, but pay for an IFE system which no one is watching.

The issue has always been between buying used 777Ws from AI or new ones directly from Boeing. Operated by AI/IAF was more of a turf war issue, and that was settled in favour of AI as it has the required infrastructure, while the ECM suites for self-protection on the aircraft will be operated and maintained by IAF. There never was a plan to buy planes on AI debt. The turf war, the decision to purchase etc is all decided by DAC. More likely, it will be a govt-to-govt deal like the previous BBJ VVIP aircraft purchase, not one bought by AI.

blrsea wrote:

The issue has always been between buying used 777Ws from AI or new ones directly from Boeing. Operated by AI/IAF was more of a turf war issue, and that was settled in favour of AI as it has the required infrastructure, while the ECM suites for self-protection on the aircraft will be operated and maintained by IAF. There never was a plan to buy planes on AI debt. The turf war, the decision to purchase etc is all decided by DAC. More likely, it will be a govt-to-govt deal like the previous BBJ VVIP aircraft purchase, not one bought by AI.

I posted the AI loan RFP link, but you continue to argue some IAF guy is buying these planes. Let us not waste time.

What was the turf war, I have $8B debt let me take $500 Million More debt???

Indigo's interest is a little intriguing. Why would a well run airline with simple homogeneous fleet and young aircraft, who get aircrafts at probably one of best rates in the world, be interested in a complex blackhole called Air India?

I get slots, but buying Air India may still not be worth it. I think its a ploy to get Tata's to pay more and dig their own graves. And knowing Ratan Tata's lack of business sense when it comes to his prestige (aka airlines and Nano) he will fall for it.