point2point
Topic Author
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DEN Great Hall Project Update

Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:25 pm

When finished in 1995, DEN’s Great Hall was expected to be a gathering area for the world’s jet setters, along with ordinary visitors to the airport. Then 9/11 changed all of that, as DEN placed its security checkpoints in the Great Hall.

Now, a $1B deal over 34 years (if approved by City Council) will renovate DEN by 2021 so that security checkpoints will be moved elsewhere within the airport and the Great Hall will once again be the gathering place, but then only to those with security clearance. Added benefit, and very important, new layout designed so that increases in pax will be better absorbed than current layout.

Article:

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/02/de ... enovation/

Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHbxv_Wqedk

and lots more info:

https://www.flydenver.com/greathall

https://www.flydenver.com/sites/default ... erview.pdf

:smile:
 
KLDC10
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:32 pm

All well and good, but you've overlooked the most important thing. What part does this development play in the wider conspiracy?

:duck:
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
737/738/739/744/748/752/763/772/789
A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/A346/A359
Q400/E170/E175/E190/CS300
 
TerminalD
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:44 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
All well and good, but you've overlooked the most important thing. What part does this development play in the wider conspiracy?

:duck:

Aren't Custer's bones entombed in that bronze horse? ;)
 
chrisair
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:46 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
All well and good, but you've overlooked the most important thing. What part does this development play in the wider conspiracy?

:duck:


The mind control and black helicopter facilities underground have been expanded in this plan. Trust me...I know. I can't tell you how I know, but I know...
 
point2point
Topic Author
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:01 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
All well and good, but you've overlooked the most important thing. What part does this development play in the wider conspiracy?

:duck:


The TRUMPITES and Putin probably have some hand in as well.......

:bouncy:
 
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intotheair
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:37 am

When I first heard that they wanted to reconfigure the Great Hall, I was very skeptical. But seeing more details, I'm cautiously more optimistic that this is the right plan.

First, I was skeptical that there would be enough space for security on level six. The floorplans in those documents show that there probably would be more space if they take up the almost-entire width of level six, whereas currently, security only takes up those center sections of level five.

Secondly, I did not like the idea to put a lot of concessions airside on level five. But on the other hand, there already are plenty of concessions in the Great Hall — it's just that they're all landside, so nobody probably goes to them. I doubt any departing passengers patron any of those places. I know the only time I ever get something in the Great Hall is when I arrive early, I'll buy a cup of coffee while I wait to be picked up. So I suppose there at least is a higher chance of someone buying a cup of coffee in a café that's airside in the Great Hall in the future plan than in the current setup, where everything is landside. I get that now. It would probably work better if it were like LHR with more/most/almost all common use gates and gate announcements made only a few minutes before boarding, but they'll probably have a better chance of getting lingering passengers regardless.

However, I still think they need to focus more on the concessions and interiors in the concourses. The pickings are slim, and those buildings are really starting to show their age. I really can't wait to see what they'll do with those, if anything in the near term.

One more thing — it would be a shame if they do end up ripping out those beautiful granite floors in the Great Hall. I really hope they figure out a way to preserve them.
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airfrnt
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:30 am

I'm not completely sold on this project yet, but thats because I don't know the full size and scope of the project. The facelift and re-organization of the main terminal alone can't possible be the 1billion the project is over. At the very least it looks like a pretty serious reconfiguration of the train system, given that the access paths down to the train run up the center of the floor instead of the sides. This arrangement makes a lot more sense, given that Denver never operates both sides & escalators at the same time.

When they first proposed the southern terminal project (which at the time consisted of the hotel, the reconfiguration of the main terminal and improvements to the luggage system and trains) this part got delayed for a while in favor of the hotel.

One thing that I do question is how effective this retail space will be, given that there is a long transit between the main terminal and A,B and C. That's going to limit how much time people are willing to spend in the shopping on the main terminal. The good news is that the amount of retail space even in the new landside is probably very similar to the amount of space in the landside before the replanning.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:55 am

A few questions:
1. I thought there was going to be a Westin or some other decent hotel built adjacent to the terminal...is that DOA, or a separate project? Same with the light rail connection?
2. Any updates on possibilities of A/C terminal expansions?
 
codc10
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:08 pm

With the expansion of self-service options, full-length ticket counters on the E/W sides of the Jeppesen building are redundant even for projected pax growth. The "island" style design of the proposal provides counter space for expansion while allowing the entire facility to fit in a 50% smaller footprint. Makes sense to me. IMV, the TSA checkpoints will remain crowded, but the new bin-return system helps move pax through the checkpoints faster. I just hope there is Precheck on both sides.

After viewing the 3D walkthrough, my concern is the additional time it will take to walk from the security checkpoint through the Great Hall to the APM level.

AWACSooner wrote:
A few questions:
1. I thought there was going to be a Westin or some other decent hotel built adjacent to the terminal...is that DOA, or a separate project? Same with the light rail connection?
2. Any updates on possibilities of A/C terminal expansions?


As to 1, both the Westin and light rail link are complete. As for gate expansion, a few additional bridges have been added to A and B lately, along with a concourse extension at C a few years ago for WN, but further expansion is definitely on the table.
Last edited by codc10 on Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bob75013
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:15 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
A few questions:
1. I thought there was going to be a Westin or some other decent hotel built adjacent to the terminal...is that DOA, or a separate project? Same with the light rail connection?
2. Any updates on possibilities of A/C terminal expansions?


Both the hotel and light rail connection have been operational for over a year. Southwest has already expanded concourse C by extending one end, and I believe is working on expanding the other end.
 
airbazar
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:28 pm

What exactly is the point of a land side "great hall" in this day and age? No one hangs out land side anymore. Airports are not a destination like they used to be decades ago. These days people want to get thru security as fast as possible, and arriving passengers want to get out as fast as possible. Money spent in non-functional features landside is a waste of money. IMO. It's not like the current facilities are run down.
 
airfrnt
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:08 pm

airbazar wrote:
What exactly is the point of a land side "great hall" in this day and age? No one hangs out land side anymore. Airports are not a destination like they used to be decades ago. These days people want to get thru security as fast as possible, and arriving passengers want to get out as fast as possible. Money spent in non-functional features landside is a waste of money. IMO. It's not like the current facilities are run down.


This is actually their point - they are shifting most of the great hall to airside.

The facility is not rundown. It's just over capacity.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:08 pm

intotheair wrote:
When I first heard that they wanted to reconfigure the Great Hall, I was very skeptical. But seeing more details, I'm cautiously more optimistic that this is the right plan.

First, I was skeptical that there would be enough space for security on level six. The floorplans in those documents show that there probably would be more space if they take up the almost-entire width of level six, whereas currently, security only takes up those center sections of level five.

Secondly, I did not like the idea to put a lot of concessions airside on level five. But on the other hand, there already are plenty of concessions in the Great Hall — it's just that they're all landside, so nobody probably goes to them. I doubt any departing passengers patron any of those places. I know the only time I ever get something in the Great Hall is when I arrive early, I'll buy a cup of coffee while I wait to be picked up. So I suppose there at least is a higher chance of someone buying a cup of coffee in a café that's airside in the Great Hall in the future plan than in the current setup, where everything is landside. I get that now. It would probably work better if it were like LHR with more/most/almost all common use gates and gate announcements made only a few minutes before boarding, but they'll probably have a better chance of getting lingering passengers regardless.

However, I still think they need to focus more on the concessions and interiors in the concourses. The pickings are slim, and those buildings are really starting to show their age. I really can't wait to see what they'll do with those, if anything in the near term.

One more thing — it would be a shame if they do end up ripping out those beautiful granite floors in the Great Hall. I really hope they figure out a way to preserve them.


I eat lunch in the main terminal about 3 times a week, sometimes more if I don't feel like packing lunches. The restaurants are usually always packed landside, especially Panda Express. There's always a line.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
cloudboy
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:48 pm

Dumb idea if you ask me. The people who use the concessions in the main hall do so because they are waiting for arriving passengers they are picking up, or waiting to go to the gate with their families who are dropping them off. If you move the security point outside of the main hall, then passengers are just going to go through security and then proceed to their concourse. All the people waiting for arriving passengers are now going to congregate around the luggage carousels, making that more congested. I just don't see the logic in this.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
airfrnt
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:29 pm

cloudboy wrote:
Dumb idea if you ask me. The people who use the concessions in the main hall do so because they are waiting for arriving passengers they are picking up, or waiting to go to the gate with their families who are dropping them off. If you move the security point outside of the main hall, then passengers are just going to go through security and then proceed to their concourse. All the people waiting for arriving passengers are now going to congregate around the luggage carousels, making that more congested. I just don't see the logic in this.


If you look at the videos and the presentation, you will see that a large amount of space in the great hall is still reserved for meeting and greeting.
 
ytib
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:53 am

"DIA’s major airlines object to security plans, overall costs and other aspects of the 34-year partial privatization arrangement, including its duration. They have requested a four-month delay, making their concerns clear in a letter sent just a month before the City Council is set to consider a massive contract."

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/28/de ... rity-plan/
Airbus:318,319,320,321,332,333,388
Boeing:707,717,732,733,734,73Q,735,73G,738,7M8,739,752,753,742,74L,744,762,763,772,77L,77W,789
Misc:142,CN1,CR2,CR7,DC8,DH2,DH8,D8Q,D10,D95,EM2,ER3,ER4,E70,100,J31,M11,M83,M88,M90,SF3

Where is Neil
 
jetmatt777
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:11 am

Good. I think it's time the airlines speak up. This deal has never made sense.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
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intotheair
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:52 am

“Simply put, this is not a sound investment — there are entire airport terminals being built around the globe for the cost of the current proposed project,” says the June 21 letter, which is addressed to DIA chief executive Kim Day and signed by representatives of United, Southwest, Frontier and five other airlines, plus the United Parcel Service.


Oh! Not a bad point to make. But then again, pretty much all of the airlines were all against DIA being built in the first place, and look how much more prosperous the Denver air market is now versus how crappy it probably would be if we would be trying to make do with Stapleton today.
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Rdh3e
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:42 pm

intotheair wrote:
But then again, pretty much all of the airlines were all against DIA being built in the first place

Being wrong once does not mean you are then subsequently wrong every time.

This entire plan is predicated on one thing, passengers staying in the great hall for their concessions instead of going to the concourse. IMHO this is a non starter. The train to the concourses is already over capacity with no plan to fix the problem. Passengers lingering in the main hall will miss their flights due to delays. It's much more likely that passengers will continue to, as today, go to the concourse and grab their coffee or meal wherever.

Additionally, guests at the Westin will lose their access to the Great Hall dining options. The restaurant in the Westin is both terrible and over priced (at least when I was there) so it's likely that many guests use the dining options in the Hall.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:00 pm

airfrnt wrote:
airbazar wrote:
What exactly is the point of a land side "great hall" in this day and age? No one hangs out land side anymore. Airports are not a destination like they used to be decades ago. These days people want to get thru security as fast as possible, and arriving passengers want to get out as fast as possible. Money spent in non-functional features landside is a waste of money. IMO. It's not like the current facilities are run down.


This is actually their point - they are shifting most of the great hall to airside.

The facility is not rundown. It's just over capacity.


100% agree. Denver is still an amazing place to connect, best in the country BUT security and getting to the gates takes so long as an O&D passenger. There is a reason why most airlines require extra time at DEN, the place is huge but slow. They need some renovations, southwest has added so much traffic
 
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FlyingJhawk
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:21 pm

I'm at DIA right now. I get that security can be a hassle at peak times but I never thought once, nor do I have any inclination to hang around this great hall. Personally I want to get to or near my gate ASAP.
 
manny
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:06 pm

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/28/de ... rity-plan/

A key point from the article:
“Simply put, this is not a sound investment — there are entire airport terminals being built around the globe for the cost of the current proposed project,” says the June 21 letter, which is addressed to DIA chief executive Kim Day and signed by representatives of United, Southwest, Frontier and five other airlines, plus the United Parcel Service
 
jetmatt777
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:40 pm

FlyingJhawk wrote:
I'm at DIA right now. I get that security can be a hassle at peak times but I never thought once, nor do I have any inclination to hang around this great hall. Personally I want to get to or near my gate ASAP.


I think most people behave like you do. The entire process for O&D passengers at DIA from the commute, parking, shuttle buses, security, and the train ride to the concourse already add a significant amount of time to the departure process, very few have time to sit and eat lunch or go shopping before. If they do have time, they want to be eating within eyesight of their gate. I agree with the airlines who signed this letter - the project is a waste of money and resources.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
N809FR
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:59 am

In my personal opinion Kim Day is so completely inept that it's no wonder the airlines aren't supportive of yet another project which will benefit very few people. DEN is a decent airport and my hometown airport, but it is far from the best and this planned Great Hall update continues to throw money down the drain.
 
airfrnt
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:10 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
Good. I think it's time the airlines speak up. This deal has never made sense.


Bear in mind, the Airlines always try and reject any capital expense that is not directly for them. UA and CO spent a amazing amount of time and money keeping DEN from being built in the first place.
 
airfrnt
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:20 am

N809FR wrote:
In my personal opinion Kim Day is so completely inept that it's no wonder the airlines aren't supportive of yet another project which will benefit very few people. DEN is a decent airport and my hometown airport, but it is far from the best and this planned Great Hall update continues to throw money down the drain.



I don't get the repeated personal attacks on Kim Day. By every measure, DEN is expanding at a good clip, international service is expanding, debt is more then manageable, and the airport continues to grow. I've come to the conclusion that the vast majority are sexism at worst, or partisan at best. The Denverpost continually has had to erase a number of vile posts, that seem obsessed at best. But please, try and change my mind.

DEN is easily the best airport in the US right now, and the only airport that I would put in the same breath as many of the best (but not the best) International Airports.

For all that DEN got right, the one thing they got really wrong was the mega-hub concept. The airport was designed for a 60% hub, 40% O&D initial traffic, with a eventual concept that the airport would be 75% hub, 25% O&D, and hub three carriers. Well, the airport hubs three carriers (which was scoffed at, but has been the rule more often then not at Denver), but the traffic is 60% O&D, 40% hubing. This puts a lot of pressure on the great hall (especially once 9/11 happened) as well as the train system (since the 60% of hub traffic would never leave the concourse they flew in on originally).

I'm not in love with the price number of this particular renovation - I believe it's necessary, but I don't see a few things that I would like to see - expansion of the train system (or conversely, routing all A traffic over the bridge and maximizing the trains to B and C).

DEN is planning on adding 20 more gates to the airport over the next two years. WN is planning on making DEN easily it's biggest station. UA has a long term commitment in place to grow the hub, and DEN is their most profitable hub. F9, I don't see growing much (if any) but that growth will easily be offset by other carriers like AA and DL. Finally, International is growing. With all that in mind, I don't see much to question the judgement of the current team.

One thing I would like to know - has the airport hit their goals with regard to the hotel numbers? Is it meeting it's projections? The same objections (with the same personal attacks) were hurled at the current leadership then. It seems like a good thing to judge the airport right mnow.
 
cschleic
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:31 am

Having concessions landside, even a limited amount, makes sense for meet and greet people. Especially at Denver, after driving so long to get there, it's time for lunch or dinner while waiting.

I used to fly to Denver a lot for work. Getting to and from, through the main building, through security...horrible. Long distances, takes forever to get there, the East and West side roads (what difference does it make once your inside the building?), road loops that take you around to both sides anyway, confusing layout and signage inside the building, security lines, getting to the trains...it's idiotic. Once at the gate area, and going over the bridge...it's great. Just making the main building more organized would help, not necessarily an enormous remodel.
 
midway7
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:42 am

In my opinion, would it just not make more sense to focus on building out more retail offerings on the concourses? My recollection is there is a good amount of build out space available, especially in Concourse A.

Focus the great hall on the security upgrades and some pre security retail for drop off and pick ups, etc.
 
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Frontier14
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:09 pm

I don't get the repeated personal attacks on Kim Day. By every measure, DEN is expanding at a good clip, international service is expanding, debt is more then manageable, and the airport continues to grow. I've come to the conclusion that the vast majority are sexism at worst, or partisan at best. The Denverpost continually has had to erase a number of vile posts, that seem obsessed at best. But please, try and change my mind.

It is pretty simple, some of us are of the opinion that Kim Day is nothing more that another bureaucrat with a grand and glorious attitude that has and will do little to solve the long term issues the airport has before it. The "Grand Hall" proposal is, as others have echoed, not the best focus to expend renovation dollars. There are needs to improve efficiency of moving pax between concourses, continuing to reduce the debt burden, keeping the concourses in good shape, expanding the available services on the concourses, increasing airfield infrastructure repairs, screening (TSA) issues and the list goes on. The renovation money could help with improvements in these areas.

Has the Denver airport director, Kim Day, done an adequate job, probably yes. Has she done a suburb job (as you allude), I think not. The recent airline(s) letter to Day spells out issues that need to be addressed. These issues should have been resolved as part of the the planning and development process, but apparently they were not. A proposal of this magnitude was done behind closed doors with few details released until weeks before a vote is required from the Denver City Council.

Denver International is a good airport, and it can be better going forward. But the question remains, does Day and her "Grand Hall" project position the airport to meet its' pax and airline needs 10-20 years into the future? I think not.

Frontier 14
 
airfrnt
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:25 pm

Frontier14 wrote:
I don't get the repeated personal attacks on Kim Day. By every measure, DEN is expanding at a good clip, international service is expanding, debt is more then manageable, and the airport continues to grow. I've come to the conclusion that the vast majority are sexism at worst, or partisan at best. The Denverpost continually has had to erase a number of vile posts, that seem obsessed at best. But please, try and change my mind.

It is pretty simple, some of us are of the opinion that Kim Day is nothing more that another bureaucrat with a grand and glorious attitude that has and will do little to solve the long term issues the airport has before it. The "Grand Hall" proposal is, as others have echoed, not the best focus to expend renovation dollars. There are needs to improve efficiency of moving pax between concourses, continuing to reduce the debt burden, keeping the concourses in good shape, expanding the available services on the concourses, increasing airfield infrastructure repairs, screening (TSA) issues and the list goes on. The renovation money could help with improvements in these areas.

Has the Denver airport director, Kim Day, done an adequate job, probably yes. Has she done a suburb job (as you allude), I think not. The recent airline(s) letter to Day spells out issues that need to be addressed. These issues should have been resolved as part of the the planning and development process, but apparently they were not. A proposal of this magnitude was done behind closed doors with few details released until weeks before a vote is required from the Denver City Council.

Denver International is a good airport, and it can be better going forward. But the question remains, does Day and her "Grand Hall" project position the airport to meet its' pax and airline needs 10-20 years into the future? I think not.

Frontier 14


Forgive me if I don’t take the airlines at face value. I just finished goin through a excellent book about the Airport’s construction and delivery, and what went wrong. Over and over, the airports did whatever the felt was in their interest, not in the interest of the city of Denver, and the people of the mountain west. From doing everything they could to sink the airport all together, to demanding that the glass over the A concourse be frosted so that travelers would not get a great view of the mountains that might give a different airline a leg up, the entire process was ridiculous.

If they had their way, we would all be stuck at Stapleton, which woul be responsible for vast delays across the entire airlines

There is absolutely no way that anyone can call what she has done less then adequate, especialy compared with the previous airport leadership. I judge that not as a airline employee, a airport employee, but rather as a frequent traveler and citizen of Denver. This means that I am inclined to at least hear her out, without the personal attacks.

So my question remains - is the hotel project generating the revenue expected? The city’s report said that the project was completed within it’s contingency (which is no small matter) but I’d like to see what happened with previous projects.
 
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intotheair
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:09 am

Rdh3e wrote:
This entire plan is predicated on one thing, passengers staying in the great hall for their concessions instead of going to the concourse.


I don't think that's really the main goal. This is mostly about making security flow better and to make more efficient use of the top level. So much of level six is empty former ticketing counters. I was very skeptical of this Great Hall redo, and I'm still not 100% on board with it, but if you look at the floorplans, the redesign will allow for much more space for security on level six than what it has using only part of the current level five.

At the very least, that's the main goal of the project according to the airport commission. The concessions reconfiguration is a side effect of that. Obviously, as we've seen in this thread, there's some debate as to whether the airport is to be trusted and whether public-private partnerships are acting in the interests of the public, but my assessment of this project has changed now that they've unveiled more details about it. I was pretty much against it at first, but now that I've seen more, I don't think a redo of the Great Hall as it is presented is a bad idea.

IMHO this is a non starter. The train to the concourses is already over capacity with no plan to fix the problem. Passengers lingering in the main hall will miss their flights due to delays. It's much more likely that passengers will continue to, as today, go to the concourse and grab their coffee or meal wherever.


I generally agree that the concourses could use some attention. I could be wrong, but I think that is the next project slated after the Great Hall. But there are already plenty of concessions in the Great Hall as it is, and in my experience, I've never seen them busy in recent years. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with moving them on the other side of security if it means more patronage.

Before I saw the project details, I was worried they were going to try to turn it into a LHR Terminal 4 design, where everybody waits in a giant central area with tons of retail, and where gate assignments aren't announced until a few minutes before boarding. But it doesn't look like that's what this is. They haven't signed up any tenants yet, of course, but the drawings make it look like they would all be things that you wouldn't spend a lot of time in anyway — newsstands, coffee shops, etc. If security processing times improve, then theoretically, most passengers would have extra time anyway, so who cares if some passengers spend five minutes getting a latte or a bottle of water and a magazine in the terminal instead of at the concourses.

Additionally, guests at the Westin will lose their access to the Great Hall dining options. The restaurant in the Westin is both terrible and over priced (at least when I was there) so it's likely that many guests use the dining options in the Hall.


I find it hard to believe very many Westin guests paying $200+ a night are going over to the Panda Express or the Pour La France in level six. And the plan doesn't get rid of pre-security concessions in the Great Hall. You can see in this PDF of the project that the "meet and greet" area of level five in the plan has retail, so there will still be plenty of landside food and retail options.

airfrnt wrote:
Forgive me if I don’t take the airlines at face value. I just finished goin through a excellent book about the Airport’s construction and delivery, and what went wrong. Over and over, the airports did whatever the felt was in their interest, not in the interest of the city of Denver, and the people of the mountain west. From doing everything they could to sink the airport all together, to demanding that the glass over the A concourse be frosted so that travelers would not get a great view of the mountains that might give a different airline a leg up, the entire process was ridiculous.

If they had their way, we would all be stuck at Stapleton, which woul be responsible for vast delays across the entire airlines

There is absolutely no way that anyone can call what she has done less then adequate, especialy compared with the previous airport leadership. I judge that not as a airline employee, a airport employee, but rather as a frequent traveler and citizen of Denver. This means that I am inclined to at least hear her out, without the personal attacks.


I agree that the airlines were wrong about DIA, though I do think there are some valid questions about the motives of public-private partnerships. Seeing as Colorado has TABOR, plenty of infrastructure projects have been funded using PPPs — to mixed results.

As for the Kim Day thing, I think the way she went about the hotel project initially left a bad taste in a lot of peoples' mouths. Going with Calatrava was seemingly a personal decision — and I think it was the wrong one. They figured out how to build the thing without him, but I still think it doesn't look right. Curt Fentress is an amazing architect who has designed so many beautiful buildings in this city, not to mention the beautiful work he's done at LAX TBIT and other airports since doing DEN. I think DEN would have probably been better off had they stuck with his original design — a less ostentatious hotel and train station farther to the south so as to not visually compete with the iconic terminal, as well as space reserved to the south for an expansion of the terminal once the current building runs out of space (if it hasn't already!)

But oh well. What's done is done, and it's at least important that DEN now has a terminal hotel and rail transit to downtown. I feel the same way about the Westin as I do about the Union Station project. Yes, the final result is still nice, but the city made a mistake by putting the light rail platforms two blocks west of the commuter rail ones. The right way to have redone Union Station would have been to put the light rail platforms underneath the commuter rail ones and to not have built south of the commuter rail platform in case we ever want to run through trains in the future. But that wasn't really a political or financial reality either.
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Rdh3e
Posts: 3564
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:02 pm

intotheair wrote:
I don't think that's really the main goal. This is mostly about making security flow better and to make more efficient use of the top level.

Given that DIA makes a significant amount of revenue from concessions if people do not spend at least as much as they are now in these shops then that is a hidden cost of the project. This should at least be studied and disclosed as it will impact the financial position of the airport.

As far as security throughput there are definitely ways to improve. Start by getting rid of those "clear" lanes that no one uses. A good industrial engineer could probably crank out another 20% capacity from that place without a sweat.

Also the train no longer stops going from the terminal to A right? If not yet they should eliminate the outbound stop at A. Make all A passengers walk the bridge. That's a good amount of capacity.
 
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intotheair
Posts: 1821
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:22 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
As far as security throughput there are definitely ways to improve. Start by getting rid of those "clear" lanes that no one uses. A good industrial engineer could probably crank out another 20% capacity from that place without a sweat.


CLEAR lanes are expanding across the country and at a faster pace after TSA's meltdown last summer. DEN has always been one of the few airports that ever had it. The company went bankrupt, but someone else bought the rights to it and is now trying to make a go of it. The biggest issue I always saw with it is that it was only in DEN and maybe four or five other airports. It's now available at ATL, SFO, LAX, JFK, LGA, DFW, and several other big airports, so maybe more people will be signing up for it now.

As for cranking more capacity out of it with more floor space, the floor plans in the PDF link in my last post show the problem fairly well. The current security checkpoints on level five are squeezed in by the baggage carousels and concessions on either side, giving them only part of the floor space in the middle. Putting them on level six and reconfiguring it means the airport would then have one-ish checkpoint that spans on either side from where the ticket counters currently begin.

Also, only having one-ish checkpoint might even out the flow. Currently, the south checkpoint is always busier than the north, which is always busier than the bridge. And what sucks about the bridge security today is that it closes at 5:30 pm and doesn't have a TSA Precheck lane.

Also the train no longer stops going from the terminal to A right? If not yet they should eliminate the outbound stop at A. Make all A passengers walk the bridge. That's a good amount of capacity.


Where'd you hear that? I go in and out of DEN about once a month. I take the train from the terminal to A all the time because the bridge doesn't have proper Precheck. But even despite that, the northbound trains couldn't skip the A stop because passengers also need to get between A and the other concourses. AC and Great Lakes are in A, and those inbound passengers very well could have connecting flights on UA in B. Also, UA has started using the common use gates in A again for departing flights during their new massive banks in the morning. Those inbound passengers may have a connecting flight in B too. So I don't think skip stop train service is a solution at all.

On the other hand, in the redesign proposal, since all passengers go through the same one-ish checkpoint and they are dumped out of security where the entrance to the bridge currently is, then it stands to reason that more passengers with flights in A would then take the bridge and walk. In addition to schmucks like me to go through the Precheck lanes and then take the train, there are probably plenty of people who have flights in A who go through the main checkpoints unaware of the bridge checkpoint, as well as people who have no choice but to take the train when the bridge security is closed. In the redesign, there's a greater chance they'll just walk across the bridge so long as there's a sign directing them post-security.
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ytib
Posts: 511
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:34 am

The latest...

DIA officials this week disclosed the bottom-line value of the public-private partnership, which is much higher than estimates that were given when negotiations were in flux. The publicly known value was characterized by DIA’s top brass in early June as “more than $1 billion” and then later by the airport’s major airlines as $1.3 billion. The final figure landed $500 million higher.

The airport has begun delivering what a spokeswoman said could reach 15,000 pages of contract documents to Denver City Council members.

According to those documents, the cost of the actual renovation would be $650 million, with the rest of the costs coming in the three decades to follow.


http://www.denverpost.com/2017/07/19/di ... -contract/
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Where is Neil
 
fry530
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:03 pm

Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:58 am

ytib wrote:
The latest...

DIA officials this week disclosed the bottom-line value of the public-private partnership, which is much higher than estimates that were given when negotiations were in flux. The publicly known value was characterized by DIA’s top brass in early June as “more than $1 billion” and then later by the airport’s major airlines as $1.3 billion. The final figure landed $500 million higher.

The airport has begun delivering what a spokeswoman said could reach 15,000 pages of contract documents to Denver City Council members.

According to those documents, the cost of the actual renovation would be $650 million, with the rest of the costs coming in the three decades to follow.


http://www.denverpost.com/2017/07/19/di ... -contract/


Good god. This seems like it has DIA standing to just loose money. I am sure there a much cheaper and quicker ways to fix the long security lines. This also seems like it would totally screw up the whole layout of the terminal. Besides, most people would rather go to the concourse their flight is leaving from before eating. The concourses need expanding anyways, they should just focus on that if they want concession money. A needs more intl gates too, so how about solving that problem. Haven't liked this plan ever, still don't like it!
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jetmatt777
Posts: 4039
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:24 am

fry530 wrote:
ytib wrote:
The latest...

DIA officials this week disclosed the bottom-line value of the public-private partnership, which is much higher than estimates that were given when negotiations were in flux. The publicly known value was characterized by DIA’s top brass in early June as “more than $1 billion” and then later by the airport’s major airlines as $1.3 billion. The final figure landed $500 million higher.

The airport has begun delivering what a spokeswoman said could reach 15,000 pages of contract documents to Denver City Council members.

According to those documents, the cost of the actual renovation would be $650 million, with the rest of the costs coming in the three decades to follow.


http://www.denverpost.com/2017/07/19/di ... -contract/


Good god. This seems like it has DIA standing to just loose money. I am sure there a much cheaper and quicker ways to fix the long security lines. This also seems like it would totally screw up the whole layout of the terminal. Besides, most people would rather go to the concourse their flight is leaving from before eating. The concourses need expanding anyways, they should just focus on that if they want concession money. A needs more intl gates too, so how about solving that problem. Haven't liked this plan ever, still don't like it!



Write the mayor and your city councilor.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
airfrnt
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:41 am

The plan passed the business subcommittee on a 4-1 vote earlier today. It's now going to the full city council.

1) Adopting a Schipol security experience and theoretically doubling the maximum capacity for security screening
2) Re-aligning checkin to one side of the terminal to free up new space (used for security and inline baggage scanning)
3) New retail & re-aligning the capacity to deal with the fact that much more traffic then ever projected is going through the main terminal.
4) Build capacity out in the main terminal to support the point where A, B and C are fully telescoped out. Additional gates on A and C (a total of 23) new gates will be built by 2020.

It's also interesting that the tenants they are describing aren't the usual. They are talking about some services that deliberately target longer layovers - clubs & health clubs, for example.

I don't like the price of this - but the basic concept is intriguing.
 
Rdh3e
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:04 am

airfrnt wrote:
The plan passed the business subcommittee on a 4-1 vote earlier today. It's now going to the full city council.

UA testimony delivered by Kirby reportedly said UA currently has plans to grow passenger counts by 50% in the coming years. No word on time frame but that is big talk for sure.
 
weekendppl
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:59 am

Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:39 am

I can see it now: all these cute individually segregated TSA lanes. Most of them closed most of the time. Long lines for the few that are open. Lots of TSAers standing around in the few that are open. BSing with one another.

In the morning and evening they only open them on one side so passengers coming to one side's ticket counters have to go all the way to the other side to get to the TSA line.

Three years after this project finishes, some miracle new TSA screening gadget/process is introduced that is incompatible with this design. Too big. Too wide. Too heavy. Something. Maybe the "tunnel of undressing," Who knows now?

Sigh. I want to respect this idea since I want to think smart engineers are working on it. But I've been around too long.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2157
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:44 am

Rdh3e wrote:
airfrnt wrote:
The plan passed the business subcommittee on a 4-1 vote earlier today. It's now going to the full city council.

UA testimony delivered by Kirby reportedly said UA currently has plans to grow passenger counts by 50% in the coming years. No word on time frame but that is big talk for sure.


I give UA promises at DEN very little credence. On the other hand, I've heard from WN staff that they plan to eventually make DEN their highest capacity "hub" with 300 flights a day. Something is going to have to give sooner or later.
 
weekendppl
Posts: 106
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:09 am

Saw another YouTube video where security--terrorist threat to the concentrated congested area at the security queues--is one thing driving this. That concentrated congested area is going to exist SOMEWHERE. I can't see how this changes that much besides, maybe. making the TSAers themselves a little safer. All the travelers will still be in fifteen or twenty minute lines for the four or five staffed security screening lanes.
 
jplatts
Posts: 3236
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:15 am

airfrnt wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
airfrnt wrote:
The plan passed the business subcommittee on a 4-1 vote earlier today. It's now going to the full city council.

UA testimony delivered by Kirby reportedly said UA currently has plans to grow passenger counts by 50% in the coming years. No word on time frame but that is big talk for sure.


I give UA promises at DEN very little credence. On the other hand, I've heard from WN staff that they plan to eventually make DEN their highest capacity "hub" with 300 flights a day. Something is going to have to give sooner or later.


How can Southwest expand to 300 flights a day out of DEN if Southwest only currently does 209 flights a day out of DEN on weekdays? I do not see Southwest adding extra nonstops to DAL out of DEN since Southwest has limited room to expand out of DAL and since Southwest already has 7 daily nonstops out of DAL. If Southwest wants to get significantly bigger at DEN, I would expect Southwest to add nonstop service from DEN to at least ELP, ICT, DSM, MEM, CVG, CLT, and BUF and I would expect Southwest to add extra nonstops from DEN to at least BOI, CLE, CMH, FLL, HOU, JAX, SDF, MSY, EWR, PIT, RNO, and GEG. I could see Southwest expanding to 230 to 240 daily nonstops in the near future, but I couldn't see Southwest reaching 300 daily nonstops from DEN in the near future.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 1974
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:20 am

Rdh3e wrote:
airfrnt wrote:
The plan passed the business subcommittee on a 4-1 vote earlier today. It's now going to the full city council.

UA testimony delivered by Kirby reportedly said UA currently has plans to grow passenger counts by 50% in the coming years. No word on time frame but that is big talk for sure.


Had some free time today, so I went to the meeting. Kirby did indeed say that.

weekendppl wrote:
I can see it now: all these cute individually segregated TSA lanes. Most of them closed most of the time. Long lines for the few that are open. Lots of TSAers standing around in the few that are open. BSing with one another.


That's my expectation, too.

Kim Day spent a lot of time talking about technology enhancements by the TSA, but ALL of them could be done without moving Security to the 6th level. No one spoke about the longer transit times from Security at the 6th level to the subway (2 new trains are to be added at some point).

Frankly, IMHO, this plan is poorly thought out.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
xjetflyer2001
Posts: 259
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:20 pm

Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:35 am

intotheair wrote:
When I first heard that they wanted to reconfigure the Great Hall, I was very skeptical. But seeing more details, I'm cautiously more optimistic that this is the right plan.

First, I was skeptical that there would be enough space for security on level six. The floorplans in those documents show that there probably would be more space if they take up the almost-entire width of level six, whereas currently, security only takes up those center sections of level five.

Secondly, I did not like the idea to put a lot of concessions airside on level five. But on the other hand, there already are plenty of concessions in the Great Hall — it's just that they're all landside, so nobody probably goes to them. I doubt any departing passengers patron any of those places. I know the only time I ever get something in the Great Hall is when I arrive early, I'll buy a cup of coffee while I wait to be picked up. So I suppose there at least is a higher chance of someone buying a cup of coffee in a café that's airside in the Great Hall in the future plan than in the current setup, where everything is landside. I get that now. It would probably work better if it were like LHR with more/most/almost all common use gates and gate announcements made only a few minutes before boarding, but they'll probably have a better chance of getting lingering passengers regardless.

However, I still think they need to focus more on the concessions and interiors in the concourses. The pickings are slim, and those buildings are really starting to show their age. I really can't wait to see what they'll do with those, if anything in the near term.

One more thing — it would be a shame if they do end up ripping out those beautiful granite floors in the Great Hall. I really hope they figure out a way to preserve them.



This is completely the wrong plan. It is true that with Security taking up half of level 6 there may possibly be more room, however it leaves less room for airline check in which is already constrained at certain times of the day and now when security backs up it would now crowd an already crowded level 6 even more during peak times.

As far as this idea of having the great hall after security, no one is going to stick around a train ride away from their gate to eat. The Great Hall see's lot's of patrons now because people are sitting waiting on people to arrive, so while they wait, they eat.

I would like to see a Tokyo Narita, Seoul Incheon, or Bangkok style airline check in lanes moved into the Great Hall instead, that always seems to be a pretty efficient set up in my opinion.

But the current plan is just asking for problems.
 
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intotheair
Posts: 1821
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:23 am

airfrnt wrote:
The plan passed the business subcommittee on a 4-1 vote earlier today. It's now going to the full city council.

1) Adopting a Schipol security experience and theoretically doubling the maximum capacity for security screening
2) Re-aligning checkin to one side of the terminal to free up new space (used for security and inline baggage scanning)
3) New retail & re-aligning the capacity to deal with the fact that much more traffic then ever projected is going through the main terminal.
4) Build capacity out in the main terminal to support the point where A, B and C are fully telescoped out. Additional gates on A and C (a total of 23) new gates will be built by 2020.

It's also interesting that the tenants they are describing aren't the usual. They are talking about some services that deliberately target longer layovers - clubs & health clubs, for example.

I don't like the price of this - but the basic concept is intriguing.


I agree. I think that once people actually take a look at the proposed layouts for the two levels and compare them to today, it's a pretty good plan. Grouping security all too one-ish checkpoint at the north end of level six is pretty smart, and it'll mean you'll be able to clear security and take the bridge to A 24 hours a day. But I agree with you that I'm just not sure of the cost or the terms of the PPP.

I'm still not 100% sold on all of it, but a lot of my concerns that I originally had have been answered.

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
This is completely the wrong plan. It is true that with Security taking up half of level 6 there may possibly be more room, however it leaves less room for airline check in which is already constrained at certain times of the day and now when security backs up it would now crowd an already crowded level 6 even more during peak times.


That is not what I have seen. It's a little busier on the east side check-in now, but on the west side, the middle section is completely empty. 15-20 years ago, two thirds of that entire west side of level six was jammed full of UA check-in counters and snaking lines of people waiting just to get their tickets printed. Times have changed now.

I still think it was a mistake to build the hotel and train station immediately south of the terminal, as it cancels out the original plans to expand the terminal building to the south once maxed out. That may never happen, but I still think the proposed plan is a pretty good way to maximize the space that they have.

As far as this idea of having the great hall after security, no one is going to stick around a train ride away from their gate to eat. The Great Hall see's lot's of patrons now because people are sitting waiting on people to arrive, so while they wait, they eat.


People may stick around, they may not. But I do think more people will probably patronize those concessions if they're airside rather than landside, and if you look at the proposed layouts, they want to keep the southern third part of level five an open airside area for visitors with concessions there too. If it ends up being remodeled as proposed, there will be plenty of concessions both landside and airside in the terminal.
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Rdh3e
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:47 am

intotheair wrote:
I agree. I think that once people actually take a look at the proposed layouts for the two levels and compare them to today, it's a pretty good plan. Grouping security all too one-ish checkpoint at the north end of level six is pretty smart, and it'll mean you'll be able to clear security and take the bridge to A 24 hours a day. But I agree with you that I'm just not sure of the cost or the terms of the PPP.
.

They are using the move of security to justify building a mall. They could move security today and keep the great hall landside by adding a few simple and inexpensive barriers. This project is clothed in safety but consists largely of vanity.
 
weekendppl
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:59 am

Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:21 am

As much as I'm not a fan of the project, I do know a little bit about building stuff. The cost of this is in the systems upgrades/modernization, moving security, and re-configuring all the ticket counters, because of all the technical systems--behind the scenes--and temporary workarounds necessary to stay operational. Re-purposing the freed-up Level 5 space for retail once all the rest is done isn't where the cost is in this project.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2157
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:10 pm

jplatts wrote:
airfrnt wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
UA testimony delivered by Kirby reportedly said UA currently has plans to grow passenger counts by 50% in the coming years. No word on time frame but that is big talk for sure.


I give UA promises at DEN very little credence. On the other hand, I've heard from WN staff that they plan to eventually make DEN their highest capacity "hub" with 300 flights a day. Something is going to have to give sooner or later.


How can Southwest expand to 300 flights a day out of DEN if Southwest only currently does 209 flights a day out of DEN on weekdays? I do not see Southwest adding extra nonstops to DAL out of DEN since Southwest has limited room to expand out of DAL and since Southwest already has 7 daily nonstops out of DAL. If Southwest wants to get significantly bigger at DEN, I would expect Southwest to add nonstop service from DEN to at least ELP, ICT, DSM, MEM, CVG, CLT, and BUF and I would expect Southwest to add extra nonstops from DEN to at least BOI, CLE, CMH, FLL, HOU, JAX, SDF, MSY, EWR, PIT, RNO, and GEG. I could see Southwest expanding to 230 to 240 daily nonstops in the near future, but I couldn't see Southwest reaching 300 daily nonstops from DEN in the near future.


WN is asking for ten more gates on C. That implies 60-80 more flights. That's by 2020.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2157
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:12 pm

xjetflyer2001 wrote:

This is completely the wrong plan. It is true that with Security taking up half of level 6 there may possibly be more room, however it leaves less room for airline check in which is already constrained at certain times of the day and now when security backs up it would now crowd an already crowded level 6 even more during peak times.


Yet airlines are giving back counter space. United has given up 1/2 of their capacity (a full 1/5th of the total capacity at the airport), and WN is giving back 1/3rd to 1/2 of their capacity.

As far as this idea of having the great hall after security, no one is going to stick around a train ride away from their gate to eat. The Great Hall see's lot's of patrons now because people are sitting waiting on people to arrive, so while they wait, they eat.


Which will still happen. There is retail seperate.

I would like to see a Tokyo Narita, Seoul Incheon, or Bangkok style airline check in lanes moved into the Great Hall instead, that always seems to be a pretty efficient set up in my opinion.


Part of the testimony was that the Schipol setup was the most efficent setup in the market today.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2157
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Re: DEN Great Hall Project Update

Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:14 pm

weekendppl wrote:
As much as I'm not a fan of the project, I do know a little bit about building stuff. The cost of this is in the systems upgrades/modernization, moving security, and re-configuring all the ticket counters, because of all the technical systems--behind the scenes--and temporary workarounds necessary to stay operational. Re-purposing the freed-up Level 5 space for retail once all the rest is done isn't where the cost is in this project.


I think this is also very much true...

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