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777GE90
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:32 pm

With all this happening partly because of Qatar's alleged support for Iran, do you think Iran would retaliate with closing it's airspace to EK/EY/SV/etc? That could be just as disastrous for the other ME3 airlines as is the current ban to QR.
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a320fan
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:38 pm

777GE90 wrote:
With all this happening partly because of Qatar's alleged support for Iran, do you think Iran would retaliate with closing it's airspace to EK/EY/SV/etc? That could be just as disastrous for the other ME3 airlines as is the current ban to QR.

Without getting into other political fall out they may occur, operationally They would just use Saudi airspace.
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:08 pm

sadiqutp wrote:
I doubt UN is going to make any difference.
Qatar has asked the United Nations' aviation agency to intervene in an airspace rights' dispute with three Gulf states following an escalating diplomatic row and trade blockade, two sources familiar with the matter said on Monday.

Qatar has sent a letter to the International Civil Aviation Organization's (ICAO) governing council in an effort to resolve the dispute after Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates and Bahrain closed their airspace to Qatari flights.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-gulf- ... SKBN1931KB


Donald Trump will direct Nikki Haley to invoke a veto there. This isn't unlike when after the KE7 shootdown, the USSR used its veto to block a resolution condemning it. However, if such is done, I could see Iran closing its airspace to EK and EY at least, and possibly Pakistan doing likewise.
 
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CanadaFair
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:22 pm

Pakistan is in bed with all GCC members, will never ban any stuff related to it.
Last edited by CanadaFair on Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:28 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Donald Trump will direct Nikki Haley to invoke a veto there. This isn't unlike when after the KE7 shootdown, the USSR used its veto to block a resolution condemning it. However, if such is done, I could see Iran closing its airspace to EK and EY at least, and possibly Pakistan doing likewise.


UN in the sense ICAO Chicago Convention rules. There is nothing to veto.
 
dubaiamman243
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:08 am

According to AAB, the duty-free sales at the airline's Doha hub have fallen 25% in the past week.
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
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KTPAFlyer
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:43 am

777GE90 wrote:
With all this happening partly because of Qatar's alleged support for Iran, do you think Iran would retaliate with closing it's airspace to EK/EY/SV/etc? That could be just as disastrous for the other ME3 airlines as is the current ban to QR.


If this ban isn't lifted within the next few months, there is no question of if, but when. Iran has nothing to lose, the GCC already hates it.
 
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777GE90
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:22 am

KTPAFlyer wrote:
777GE90 wrote:
With all this happening partly because of Qatar's alleged support for Iran, do you think Iran would retaliate with closing it's airspace to EK/EY/SV/etc? That could be just as disastrous for the other ME3 airlines as is the current ban to QR.


If this ban isn't lifted within the next few months, there is no question of if, but when. Iran has nothing to lose, the GCC already hates it.


What about air traffic control fees? Do they make good money from the ME3 corridor?
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ExDubai
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:40 am

Yepp, they are one of the winners in that mess. A lot of unexpected money coming in...
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CanadaFair
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:15 am

Is QR banned from using Bahrain airspace once again?
 
sadiqutp
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:29 am

CanadaFair wrote:
Is QR banned from using Bahrain airspace once again?


I don't think so! there is a flight through it right now
https://www.flightradar24.com/QTR227/dbd09b6
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:37 am

Excellent article (no paywall) at CAPA on the Gulf airspace issue.
https://centreforaviation.com/insights/ ... ion-348493

KSA did not sign the Transit Agreement (signatories allow unlimited 1st and 2nd Freedoms), but UAE, Bahrain, and Egypt did sign it ... which may explain why QR flights over Bahrain continue ... probably case-by-case (flight-by-flight).
 
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KTPAFlyer
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:40 am

QR has officially appealed to the UN over the Gulf blockade

https://www.rt.com/business/392051-qata ... n-boycott/
 
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GlenP
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:47 am

Just to confirm that, in the case of Egyptian airspace, at least, only QR and MS flights to and from Doha are affected by the ban. Other airlines are free to overfly Egypt.

See: http://tinyurl.com/ybs7oz25
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KarelXWB
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:31 am

Meanwhile Oman Air is increasing frequenties to Qatar:

Oman Air increases flight frequency to Qatar
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Thenoflyzone
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:42 am

WPvsMW wrote:
Excellent article (no paywall) at CAPA on the Gulf airspace issue.
https://centreforaviation.com/insights/ ... ion-348493

KSA did not sign the Transit Agreement (signatories allow unlimited 1st and 2nd Freedoms), but UAE, Bahrain, and Egypt did sign it ... which may explain why QR flights over Bahrain continue ... probably case-by-case (flight-by-flight).


excellent article indeed.

I think it's high time Qatar reclaims its airspace from Bahrain. Conflicts such as these illustrate the importance of having control of one's own airspace.
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huaiwei
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:40 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
I think it's high time Qatar reclaims its airspace from Bahrain. Conflicts such as these illustrate the importance of having control of one's own airspace.

Airspace, or FIR? Reading the article (and that map) makes it even more confusing.

Qatar does not have an FIR at all, so perhaps you mean Qatar's airspace should be controlled by its own FIR?
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sierra3tango
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:11 am

huaiwei wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
I think it's high time Qatar reclaims its airspace from Bahrain. Conflicts such as these illustrate the importance of having control of one's own airspace.

Airspace, or FIR? Reading the article (and that map) makes it even more confusing.

Qatar does not have an FIR at all, so perhaps you mean Qatar's airspace should be controlled by its own FIR?


Remember attending a SAR briefing at Bahrain's CAA in about 2001, IIRC in those days Qatar had its own FIR, which was surrounded by Bahrain's FIR which extended all the way down to the UAE coast.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:19 am

huaiwei wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
I think it's high time Qatar reclaims its airspace from Bahrain. Conflicts such as these illustrate the importance of having control of one's own airspace.

Airspace, or FIR? Reading the article (and that map) makes it even more confusing.

Qatar does not have an FIR at all, so perhaps you mean Qatar's airspace should be controlled by its own FIR?


Yes. FIR. That's what I meant. Qatar should have it's own FIR. Ideally one that borders Iran and is not completely surrounded by Bahrain FIR. This way, there is a way in/out of the country if ever Bahrain decides to revoke all overflight/arr/dep rights from Qatar.
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ExDubai
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:03 am

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... d-blockade

For me it looks like that mess won't be finished soon
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uta999
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:55 am

The US, UK and Europe should insist on seeing proof of Qatar state involvement in funding terrorism. They should also examine whether Saudi Arabia does too, then impose a flight ban on their national carrier, quickly followed by EK. Then you will see how quickly this will resolve itself.

Doha is being bullied out of existence, by the pot calling the kettle black. Saudi Arabia is more to blame than anyone else.
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readytotaxi
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:02 am

The US UK would never insist on seeing proof, far to many skellintons in that closet to bite them in the arse.
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:35 am

The US or better Donald Trump started this crisis with seeming to give Saudi Arabia the go ahead at his visit. Perhaps he did not realize what he started, but I think it is not wise to look at the USA to solve this crisis. My Money is on Kuwait, being the player behind the screens trying to solve this, if it is possible at all. I do not expect a war, specially because of the USA Air Force base in Qatar with its about 10,000 USA military personal.

I thought rather the KSA rather than the UAE was implicated in Yemen.
 
bennett123
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:56 am

I had been considering going to the Dubai Air Show.

Think I will wait 10 days then think again.

I do not fancy flying into a war zone.
 
ExDubai
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:04 pm

bennett123 wrote:
I had been considering going to the Dubai Air Show.

Think I will wait 10 days then think again.

I do not fancy flying into a war zone.

What war zone?
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yowza
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:10 pm

ExDubai wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
I had been considering going to the Dubai Air Show.

Think I will wait 10 days then think again.

I do not fancy flying into a war zone.

What war zone?

I think the comment was supposed to point out that things do not appear to be cooling down and that an escalation of this could be round the corner. That could constitute a state of war of sorts...
 
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:25 pm

yowza wrote:
ExDubai wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
I had been considering going to the Dubai Air Show.

Think I will wait 10 days then think again.

I do not fancy flying into a war zone.

What war zone?

I think the comment was supposed to point out that things do not appear to be cooling down and that an escalation of this could be round the corner. That could constitute a state of war of sorts...

Going from closed borders to attacking each other is a big jump.
 
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:46 pm

The Airshow is in November.

A lot can change in that time, good or bad.

I am sitting tight and watching develoopments.
 
edu2703
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:48 pm

Iran to not allow airplanes operated by Saudi Arabia to cross into their airspace. - RT Arabic
 
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:48 pm

edu2703 wrote:
Iran to not allow airplanes operated by Saudi Arabia to cross into their airspace. - RT Arabic


I can imagine Saudi Arabia are having a good chuckle over that one. They don't have any flights that would naturally go over Iran's airspace anyway that I can see from a glance of the JED flight boards. And even if they did it's an easy detour for them through Muscat and the top corner of Mumbai FIRs for eastern routes and to the west they carry on as normal through Jordan to Europe.
 
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CanadaFair
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:13 pm

Saudia were to operate ;hajj flits to Iran.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:29 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
The US or better Donald Trump started this crisis with seeming to give Saudi Arabia the go ahead at his visit. Perhaps he did not realize what he started, but I think it is not wise to look at the USA to solve this crisis. My Money is on Kuwait, being the player behind the screens trying to solve this, if it is possible at all. I do not expect a war, specially because of the USA Air Force base in Qatar with its about 10,000 USA military personal.

I thought rather the KSA rather than the UAE was implicated in Yemen.


Are you being sarcastic?

The USA isn't even a party to this disagreement. The US just sold Qatar new F15's and has the largest airbase in the middle east in Qatar.

What's next? Blame the orbit of the solar system on the USA?
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edu2703
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:42 am

bennett123 wrote:
I had been considering going to the Dubai Air Show.

Think I will wait 10 days then think again.

I do not fancy flying into a war zone.


Well, I do not know if the situation will get worse or will continue the same way. I see articles saying that nothing serious will happen, that the chances of armed conflict are very small.

I also see articles like the one made by Konstantin Truevtsev from Valdai Discussion Club. He says the possibilities for armed conflict are considerable if Qatar doesn't meet the 13 demands imposed by KSA.

Some of these requirements are virtually impossible to complete in 10 days (Close Al-Jazeera, Shut Turkish Base). No one knows what will happen if Qatar doesn't meet the demands within 10 days. For now, what you read on the internet about what will happen are just predictions. "Nothing will happen" and "There will be an armed conflict" are the two extremes of these predictions.
 
ubeema
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:48 am

enilria wrote:
yowza wrote:
ExDubai wrote:
What war zone?

I think the comment was supposed to point out that things do not appear to be cooling down and that an escalation of this could be round the corner. That could constitute a state of war of sorts...

Going from closed borders to attacking each other is a big jump.

Remember Irak invaded Kuwait over alleged petroleum theft. You know the rest... We are not there yet BUT if this conflict drags on and egos are scratched you can bet joint chiefs of staff from interested parties will be asked to put options on the table.
 
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:53 am

edu2703 wrote:
Iran to not allow airplanes operated by Saudi Arabia to cross into their airspace. - RT Arabic



It is interesting that UAE carriers were left out of this. What does it mean?
 
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:35 am

Eyad89 wrote:
edu2703 wrote:
Iran to not allow airplanes operated by Saudi Arabia to cross into their airspace. - RT Arabic



It is interesting that UAE carriers were left out of this. What does it mean?


If UAE was also included then that would be a disaster for EK and EY.
 
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persiangulf93
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:33 am

PerfectGriffin wrote:
Eyad89 wrote:
edu2703 wrote:
Iran to not allow airplanes operated by Saudi Arabia to cross into their airspace. - RT Arabic



It is interesting that UAE carriers were left out of this. What does it mean?


If UAE was also included then that would be a disaster for EK and EY.


Iran gets thousands of dollars of money from each EK and EY plane that uses Iranian airspace, per hour...

It doesn't make sense to block them other than moral reasons
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:34 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The US or better Donald Trump started this crisis with seeming to give Saudi Arabia the go ahead at his visit. Perhaps he did not realize what he started, but I think it is not wise to look at the USA to solve this crisis. My Money is on Kuwait, being the player behind the screens trying to solve this, if it is possible at all. I do not expect a war, specially because of the USA Air Force base in Qatar with its about 10,000 USA military personal.

I thought rather the KSA rather than the UAE was implicated in Yemen.


Are you being sarcastic?

The USA isn't even a party to this disagreement. The US just sold Qatar new F15's and has the largest airbase in the middle east in Qatar.

What's next? Blame the orbit of the solar system on the USA?


Mjoelnir over-eggs it a bit but there have been several media commentators - even before things escalated to the Qatar airspace row - saying Trump's visit was intended as an endorsement of Saudi Arabia which encourages it to further project its influence.
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MalevTU134
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:46 pm

persiangulf93 wrote:
PerfectGriffin wrote:
Eyad89 wrote:


It is interesting that UAE carriers were left out of this. What does it mean?


If UAE was also included then that would be a disaster for EK and EY.


Iran gets thousands of dollars of money from each EK and EY plane that uses Iranian airspace, per hour...

It doesn't make sense to block them other than moral reasons

Sure, but then again, none of this debacle makes any sense commercially, only for (im)moral reasons.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:54 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
The US or better Donald Trump started this crisis with seeming to give Saudi Arabia the go ahead at his visit. Perhaps he did not realize what he started, but I think it is not wise to look at the USA to solve this crisis. My Money is on Kuwait, being the player behind the screens trying to solve this, if it is possible at all. I do not expect a war, specially because of the USA Air Force base in Qatar with its about 10,000 USA military personal.

I thought rather the KSA rather than the UAE was implicated in Yemen.

None of the "locals" are going to invade Qatar with 10,000+ US troops & aircraft there and backup just a few hours away. Agree that Kuwait is probably a backgroung player in sorting this, as the Swiss so often are.
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MalevTU134
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:02 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The US or better Donald Trump started this crisis with seeming to give Saudi Arabia the go ahead at his visit. Perhaps he did not realize what he started, but I think it is not wise to look at the USA to solve this crisis. My Money is on Kuwait, being the player behind the screens trying to solve this, if it is possible at all. I do not expect a war, specially because of the USA Air Force base in Qatar with its about 10,000 USA military personal.

I thought rather the KSA rather than the UAE was implicated in Yemen.

None of the "locals" are going to invade Qatar with 10,000+ US troops & aircraft there and backup just a few hours away. Agree that Kuwait is probably a backgroung player in sorting this, as the Swiss so often are.

The Swiss??? Care to explain or give examples?
 
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:21 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The US or better Donald Trump started this crisis with seeming to give Saudi Arabia the go ahead at his visit. Perhaps he did not realize what he started, but I think it is not wise to look at the USA to solve this crisis. My Money is on Kuwait, being the player behind the screens trying to solve this, if it is possible at all. I do not expect a war, specially because of the USA Air Force base in Qatar with its about 10,000 USA military personal.

I thought rather the KSA rather than the UAE was implicated in Yemen.

None of the "locals" are going to invade Qatar with 10,000+ US troops & aircraft there and backup just a few hours away. Agree that Kuwait is probably a backgroung player in sorting this, as the Swiss so often are.

The Swiss??? Care to explain or give examples?


I think it is just a comparison. Switzerland has been used in the past as a neutral go between between countries not talking to one another. In this case Kuwait is still talking to both sides.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:05 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
None of the "locals" are going to invade Qatar with 10,000+ US troops & aircraft there and backup just a few hours away. Agree that Kuwait is probably a backgroung player in sorting this, as the Swiss so often are.

The Swiss??? Care to explain or give examples?


I think it is just a comparison. Switzerland has been used in the past as a neutral go between between countries not talking to one another. In this case Kuwait is still talking to both sides.

My question remains...when/where/in what conflict was that? I would say Norway has been far more active as mediator, such as in the Oslo deal between Israel and the PLO, in the conflict in Sri Lanka, in mediations between FARC and the Colombian government... But Switzerland?...
 
edu2703
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:18 pm

Rumor: In the next 48 hours:

1. Kuwait to cut ALL ties with Qatar
2. Jordan to cut ALL ties with Qatar
3. GCC to cut ALL ties with Turkey
 
THY748i
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:45 pm

This is madness, what will the GCC gain from this. They're building themselves an island of isolation if above is all going to happen. Well for what it's worth at least Turkey might turn to Europe again instead of 16th century style theocracies.
Are there any numbers out there about passenger flow changes etc since the start of the conflict at QR? Has Oman Air really been the "winner" in all of this as of now?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:43 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
The Swiss??? Care to explain or give examples?


I think it is just a comparison. Switzerland has been used in the past as a neutral go between between countries not talking to one another. In this case Kuwait is still talking to both sides.

My question remains...when/where/in what conflict was that? I would say Norway has been far more active as mediator, such as in the Oslo deal between Israel and the PLO, in the conflict in Sri Lanka, in mediations between FARC and the Colombian government... But Switzerland?...


Switzerland is the classic mediator or neutral go between.

read: http://www.americanswiss.org/switzerlan ... d-offices/

I have been stupid again searching the internet instead of letting people find things themselves.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:02 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

I think it is just a comparison. Switzerland has been used in the past as a neutral go between between countries not talking to one another. In this case Kuwait is still talking to both sides.

My question remains...when/where/in what conflict was that? I would say Norway has been far more active as mediator, such as in the Oslo deal between Israel and the PLO, in the conflict in Sri Lanka, in mediations between FARC and the Colombian government... But Switzerland?...


Switzerland is the classic mediator or neutral go between.

read: http://www.americanswiss.org/switzerlan ... d-offices/

I have been stupid again searching the internet instead of letting people find things themselves.

Takkar fyrir!
I did search but came up with nothing. And while this page does show a few conflicts where they did participate in the mediation (mostly as part of a multy-party effort, for example OSCE), that is hardly being the classic mediator. But, whatever, this is really off topic anyway.
 
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777GE90
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:43 pm

edu2703 wrote:
Rumor: In the next 48 hours:

1. Kuwait to cut ALL ties with Qatar
2. Jordan to cut ALL ties with Qatar
3. GCC to cut ALL ties with Turkey


Very intersting.

Source?
Image
 
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CanadaFair
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Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:12 pm

Kuwait mediator to take a u-turn LOL!
 
edu2703
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:50 pm

Re: Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:10 pm

777GE90 wrote:
edu2703 wrote:
Rumor: In the next 48 hours:

1. Kuwait to cut ALL ties with Qatar
2. Jordan to cut ALL ties with Qatar
3. GCC to cut ALL ties with Turkey


Very intersting.

Source?

Dr. Jasim Khalfan via Twitter https://twitter.com/DrJasimKhalfan/stat ... 8488681472

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