BBD has been producing CSeries for 2 years and has so far failed to achieve consistent product quality. Its production rate does not reach even 2 aircraft / month. In a few months there will be no way to blame the PW and inconvenient truths will surface.

PlanesNTrains wrote:

Well, since you can’t say more, he’s been in the CSeries, he’s likely been in a number of Ejets, and the E2 hasn’t seen revenue service yet, it’s safe to say that - short a big surprise - he has a decent idea of how the two compare.

Except for the 2x2 configuration, the E2 is an new airplane and a completely different experience from the current EJets.

Thus, in order to affirm the quality of one over the other, it is necessary to fly and know both.

However, I agree that everyone's preference here at arlines.net is personal. And I'm fine with that ...

It is also worth remembering that the E190-E2 program is being certified by the 3 main aeronautical authorities involved (ANAC, FAA and EASA).
The certification by the three aeronautical authorities simultaneously is an unprecedented fact for Embraer.

More than that, the program is below the previously anticipated cost, the data not only confirms but exceeded the performance estimates and the certification came six months before the date previously stipulated ...

Nean1 wrote:

Embraer expects that in its first year of operation the E2 will attain a dispatch reliability of 99%. Well, Embraer usually keeps its promises ...

Except Embraer said the same thing when B6 introduced the E190, an introduction that was plagued with maintenance issues, dispatch unreliability, and a host of other problems. Some of these could likely be attributed to the fact that B6 was somewhat ill-suited to be a global launch customer, but Embraer's history of initial overpromising has not been forgotten in New York.

Regardless of comfort/preference etc etc, my guess is this order will come down to two things, flexibility of assets, and flexibility of aircraft.

Regardless of what one thinks of the CS versus the E2, the C series does offer two sizes Jetblue might be interested in, and offers a larger version and more range than the E2 can. This flexibility of operation if needed gives the C Series the edge (again if needed). However Embraer has the remaining Jetblue 190E1 order on the books that gives them an edge in terms of the financial side.I don't know how it'll all pan out, and how much each of those advantages are worth comparing otherwise two both excellent aircraft.

The thing I wonder is how much of a bite is Embraer feeling from their unique backlog position. They seem to be targeting more or less 100 deliveries a year, and so they've got somewhere along the lines of 4 years of backlog if you take every order as firm, but that's where it gets hairy. They've got 100 or so E175 orders and have been largely the past few years making almost all of the E1's E175's, the question there is whether they are reaching saturation in the regional jet market or not, and if the E2 can replace thanks to scope clauses etc (another topic for another time). If the E175 faucet is about to shut off, and scope clauses aren't resolved then after this year there won't be many 175 E1 orders and the 175 E2 orders will remain in limbo. So far the last thing I saw was saying that 90% of deliveries this year will be E1, if that's the case that's all of the 175's on backlog pretty much eaten up by the end of the (if one assumes the regionals are maxed out on 175's, and or that they won't start replacing CRJ700's with them like Skywest has done a bit of)

So now you'd be staring at your 180 orders for the 190/195E2, to carry you through 2019,2020 bridging hopefully to when the 175E2 comes in 2021. However of those 180 orders 50 are from Air Costa which while still on Embraer's books can't be seen as valid, and besides for 5 orders for the 190, and 30 (maybe 40 depending on who the undisclosed order is for) for the 195 are leasing companies. Someone who knows better how lessors make their decision would know better than I, but I'd guess that the incredibly small number of carriers with orders for the E2's would make lessors a bit wary. If for example one airline like Azul who has all but five of the non leased aircraft on order has issues what happens to your investment of frames? Lessors don't want orphaned frames and while I don't think the E2 will be that, I imagine the lessors have to look at it as one, until proven otherwise.

Having said all that the big question I come to is could Embraer look at Jetblue as the make or break order for the type much like Bombardier looked at Delta? Does Embraer think that getting a large order from another airline would be the thing that frees up the order train for the type? If that's the case and you see it as a make or break for the E2 then there's not anything you wouldn't do to pick up the order, and having Jetblue already on the hook for 24 E190E1's can't hurt your position in what you can do financially to make it work for them. If they could get another year or so of production out of a Jetblue order that would be really important moving forward to not only secure the E2's production rate over the next few years, but also make the all important to this point bridge (assuming the E175E1 is done which I don't think actually is the case but I'm sure Embraer knows better than I do the answer whichever it might be) to the 175E2, and the replacement cycle for later E1's. The problem I see is Embraer is in a bit of a bind in that folks won't want to buy E1's 190 195 now that the E2 is out, but they won't want to buy E2's until they feel it is established and not an orphaned aircraft. So what needs to bust open the dam and get airlines not sitting on their hands is beyond me, if Embraer feels like they've got enough demand for the 175E1 then it is probably better not to go to the mat completely on the Jetblue RFQ, because their production is secure enough that they can keep trucking till things sort out scope wise, and replacement wise and don't have a need to give away the farm to do so. If they however don't feel like they can pick up another 100 or so 175E1's (or 190 195E2's) in the meantime it might be better to do everything you can and go desperation mode for the Jetblue order because those frames filling up the production schedule are incredibly valuable, and otherwise you'd be looking at a cut in production to wait out till the next cycle. I'd prefer to see the E2 get it just because I'd like it to be a more secure frame in the market (always good to see more types secure their futures) but I honestly have no idea which way it'll go, and I think it says a lot about the future Embraer sees for itself which makes it fascinating in my eyes.

AA94 wrote:

Nean1 wrote:

Embraer expects that in its first year of operation the E2 will attain a dispatch reliability of 99%. Well, Embraer usually keeps its promises ...

Except Embraer said the same thing when B6 introduced the E190, an introduction that was plagued with maintenance issues, dispatch unreliability, and a host of other problems. Some of these could likely be attributed to the fact that B6 was somewhat ill-suited to be a global launch customer, but Embraer's history of initial overpromising has not been forgotten in New York.

Things changed da lot after that. Embraer did 4 new programs from scratch, and stopped outsourcing systems integration to suppliers. You would be surprised to see how the E2 reliability currently is, and jetBlue is seeing that right now in person!

EMBSPBR wrote:

PlanesNTrains wrote:

Well, since you can’t say more, he’s been in the CSeries, he’s likely been in a number of Ejets, and the E2 hasn’t seen revenue service yet, it’s safe to say that - short a big surprise - he has a decent idea of how the two compare.

Except for the 2x2 configuration, the E2 is an new airplane and a completely different experience from the current EJets.

Thus, in order to affirm the quality of one over the other, it is necessary to fly and know both.

However, I agree that everyone's preference here at arlines.net is personal. And I'm fine with that ...

It is also worth remembering that the E190-E2 program is being certified by the 3 main aeronautical authorities involved (ANAC, FAA and EASA).
The certification by the three aeronautical authorities simultaneously is an unprecedented fact for Embraer.

More than that, the program is below the previously anticipated cost, the data not only confirms but exceeded the performance estimates and the certification came six months before the date previously stipulated ...

Well that is different than your initial comment that I replied to.

Again, I’m sure the E2 series is a great family of aircraft, but there will clearly be operators that will prefer the CSeries instead. There’s room for both.

Source: https://www.airinsight.com/jetblue-drivers-seat/

JetBlue appears, quite rightly, to be on the fence regarding its choice. By staying with Embraer, the airline faces very low pilot training costs. In addition, the E2 has much better economics and much-improved range. The E195-E2 would allow JetBlue to reduce CASM difference to A320neo from 17% (E190 vs A320ceo) to 3% (E195-E2 vs A320neo), while offering 20% COC/trip advantage. The E195-E2 is in line with the JetBlue CASM-Ex fuel program reduction with 26% lower CASM-Ex fuel and has 24 more seats.

Converting to the CS100 comes with more changes – pilot training is one of them. But the CS100 has a crucial feature, in that it has more range. It is also by now a known aircraft, with customers having worked through the launch hiccups. Avoiding being a launch customer again may be important to JetBlue. Note that the E2 achieves EIS in April and is likely to have its hiccups sorted out by the time JetBlue would take any deliveries.

But Embraer will not lose to the CS100 without a knockdown fight. Losing JetBlue would be a painful hit. Fortunately for Embraer, their E195-E2 has the right economics. The flight test program has been remarkable in that there was no news other than “on time, on budget and better than spec”. It doesn’t get better than that. Moreover, looking farther into the future, Boeing would like an Embraer win at JetBlue

PlanesNTrains wrote:

After a recent itinerary involving an E175, a 737-800, and an A320, I was surprised to find the Ejet to be the least comfortable flight I could remember and the 737 came out on top of the three. Go figure. I guess it’s more than just the airframe that matters.

I dont agree with you, you cant beat the 2x2 sitting of the E175. the main problem i have is the smaller overhead bins but passenger comfort its by far the best

chiki wrote:

PlanesNTrains wrote:

After a recent itinerary involving an E175, a 737-800, and an A320, I was surprised to find the Ejet to be the least comfortable flight I could remember and the 737 came out on top of the three. Go figure. I guess it’s more than just the airframe that matters.

I dont agree with you, you cant beat the 2x2 sitting of the E175. the main problem i have is the smaller overhead bins but passenger comfort its by far the best

So......? I’m wrong? I’m lying? I dreamed it? Lol. I think my point about much of it being carrier-specific is the point. I’m not disputing the 2x2 comfort of the Ejet, and I’ve flown them several times. I’m saying my experiences have varied and saying “The Ejet is better” (for example) may be a bit too simplistic.

LockheedBBD wrote:

Source: https://www.airinsight.com/jetblue-drivers-seat/

JetBlue appears, quite rightly, to be on the fence regarding its choice. By staying with Embraer, the airline faces very low pilot training costs. In addition, the E2 has much better economics and much-improved range. The E195-E2 would allow JetBlue to reduce CASM difference to A320neo from 17% (E190 vs A320ceo) to 3% (E195-E2 vs A320neo), while offering 20% COC/trip advantage. The E195-E2 is in line with the JetBlue CASM-Ex fuel program reduction with 26% lower CASM-Ex fuel and has 24 more seats.

Converting to the CS100 comes with more changes – pilot training is one of them. But the CS100 has a crucial feature, in that it has more range. It is also by now a known aircraft, with customers having worked through the launch hiccups. Avoiding being a launch customer again may be important to JetBlue. Note that the E2 achieves EIS in April and is likely to have its hiccups sorted out by the time JetBlue would take any deliveries.

But Embraer will not lose to the CS100 without a knockdown fight. Losing JetBlue would be a painful hit. Fortunately for Embraer, their E195-E2 has the right economics. The flight test program has been remarkable in that there was no news other than “on time, on budget and better than spec”. It doesn’t get better than that. Moreover, looking farther into the future, Boeing would like an Embraer win at JetBlue

One other thing that Embraer might have as an advantage is how quickly Jetblue wanted to replace the E190's. I understand the goals of production for the C Series but at least so far the numbers they've been able to actually deliver have been incredibly low, and while I expect them to improve, 17 last year and only 1 so far this year can not give an airline a whole lot of confidence in delivery schedules in getting lots of aircraft fast, espcially with Air Canada and Delta already in line. Embraer will have to have a production ramp up surely with the E2, but so far so good, everything has been on time and they have experience running that line at 100 aircraft + a year so if Jetblue wants to turn over the E190's fast, that might be another point to the E2's side.

I doubt that Airbus is going to let this one slide to Embraer.
Personally I think that Embraer doesn't stand a chance.

Jetblue is not convinced by Embraer, otherwise they would have converted remaining E90 orders to the E2 version a long time ago.
On the other hand, existing Cseries customers can't praise the aircraft enough.

There's alot more to operating an aircraft than just fuel burn and number of seats, and some of them are reliability, maintenance-friendliness, support, and capital cost. Having the Airbus mass puts the Cseries in a diferent class of aircraft.

Waterbomber wrote:

I doubt that Airbus is going to let this one slide to Embraer.
Personally I think that Embraer doesn't stand a chance.

Jetblue is not convinced by Embraer, otherwise they would have converted remaining E90 orders to the E2 version a long time ago.
On the other hand, existing Cseries customers can't praise the aircraft enough.

There's alot more to operating an aircraft than just fuel burn and number of seats, and some of them are reliability, maintenance-friendliness, support, and capital cost. Having the Airbus mass puts the Cseries in a diferent class of aircraft.

It's easy to have praise when you're finally in service. E2 service will start soon and we'll know more then. I don't think B6 was in a hurry to make a decision on future Ejet deliveries and by waiting they have some options to play off one-another. And - if what we read here is true - it sounds like the E2's have addressed much of the concerns you list.

We'll see what happens.

PlanesNTrains wrote:

Btw, I’m not an E2 critic. I just think the CSeries may be found more compelling by a fair number of folks.

Would you be willing to state why you and the "fair number of folks" would prefer the CSeries? Lets assume that inside the aircraft you have the exact same experience.

As someone who's done contract work for JetBlue related to the Embraer, I can tell you that they can't wait to get rid of this aircraft. Embraer are junk, throw-away airplanes. There's a reason why hundreds are in the desert or stuck in between leases for years on end or already scrapped. Even some E190s, including some formerly operated by JetBlue, have been scrapped. The quality simply is not there, and throwing two big shiny engines on it won't help much in that area.

Goodyear wrote:

As someone who's done contract work for JetBlue related to the Embraer, I can tell you that they can't wait to get rid of this aircraft. Embraer are junk, throw-away airplanes. There's a reason why hundreds are in the desert or stuck in between leases for years on end or already scrapped. Even some E190s, including some formerly operated by JetBlue, have been scrapped. The quality simply is not there, and throwing two big shiny engines on it won't help much in that area.

I don't think there are "hundreds" in the desert. While there may be quality issues (I can't speak to that either way), airlines love their E175s. In addition, JetBlue has four historic aircraft according to planespotters.net, none of which have been scrapped: https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... pe=ERJ-190 Edit: one has been broken up (it was the second one ever produced), but that is still less than "some" https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... 3JZ5H0BOOa

While I prefer Bombardier, the E2s are a lot more than re-engined aircraft.

Goodyear wrote:

As someone who's done contract work for JetBlue related to the Embraer, I can tell you that they can't wait to get rid of this aircraft. Embraer are junk, throw-away airplanes. There's a reason why hundreds are in the desert or stuck in between leases for years on end or already scrapped. Even some E190s, including some formerly operated by JetBlue, have been scrapped. The quality simply is not there, and throwing two big shiny engines on it won't help much in that area.

Do you like numbers ???
I do!

Those are the numbers for "Embraer junk, throw-away airplanes":

Source (yes, a valuable source, not yours):
http://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-e190.htm
Planes built 743
Active 682 -> 92%
Scrapped ??? Only two: one 190 prototype msn 2 and one 195 prototype msn 5.

JetBlue ???
Full list of all operational 60 here:
http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/JetB ... 190-35.htm

Total orders for E190-E1 and E190-E2:
Source:https://daflwcl3bnxyt.cloudfront.net/m/6be393e63be3d1f6/original/4Q17-Deliveries-Announcement-BR.pdf

Firm and options until Dec. 31st, 2018: 806.


And for the E175-E1:

Source: http://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-e170.htm
Planes built 701
Active 672 -> 96%

Total orders for E175-E1:
Source:https://daflwcl3bnxyt.cloudfront.net/m/6be393e63be3d1f6/original/4Q17-Deliveries-Announcement-BR.pdf

Firm and options until Dec. 31st, 2018: 949.

Yes, it´s a lot of junk ...

Has B6 decided on which aircraft it wants to go with yet? I see that the C Series is being discussed. I admit!!! I haven't been following B6 lately, and I did read through the posts. What's the latest dirt?

Is it possible B6 doesn't go with either the Embraer or C Series?

Andre3K wrote:

PlanesNTrains wrote:

Btw, I’m not an E2 critic. I just think the CSeries may be found more compelling by a fair number of folks.

Would you be willing to state why you and the "fair number of folks" would prefer the CSeries? Lets assume that inside the aircraft you have the exact same experience.

First, I don’t think I need to state anything. If you find it odd that some might prefer one aircraft and others another, I can’t help you.

But - generically speaking - the CSeries might be preferred because:

—> They had a bad experience with the Ejet
—> They prefer more flexible seating options
—> They like only having to take a 20% hit when going from Y to F seating vs 25% on the Ejet
—> They want the range
—> They have a clean-sheet fetish
—> They think it looks better
—> Theh don’t trust Embraer anymore
—> They have flown in the CSeries and really liked it
—> They always root for the underdog
—> They’re sick of the Ejets

Etc

F9Animal wrote:

Is it possible B6 doesn't go with either the Embraer or C Series?

I guess that's still a possibility but they've been very public these past few months that they're evaluating the CSeries and E2.

I think the E2 will win at JetBlue simply because Embraer, nor their future partner, Boeing, will want to lose this order to the CSeries. I'm also expecting some cut-throat pricing for B6. The bean counters will also be happy with lower training costs etc. Embraer also seems like they might be pretty capable of delivering the planes reliably and on-time (the development of the E2 has gone very smoothly). Bombardier is still struggling with their production.

PlanesNTrains wrote:

Andre3K wrote:

PlanesNTrains wrote:

Btw, I’m not an E2 critic. I just think the CSeries may be found more compelling by a fair number of folks.

Would you be willing to state why you and the "fair number of folks" would prefer the CSeries? Lets assume that inside the aircraft you have the exact same experience.

First, I don’t think I need to state anything. If you find it odd that some might prefer one aircraft and others another, I can’t help you.

But - generically speaking - the CSeries might be preferred because:

—> They had a bad experience with the Ejet
—> They prefer more flexible seating options
—> They like only having to take a 20% hit when going from Y to F seating vs 25% on the Ejet
—> They want the range
—> They have a clean-sheet fetish
—> They think it looks better
—> Theh don’t trust Embraer anymore
—> They have flown in the CSeries and really liked it
—> They always root for the underdog
—> They’re sick of the Ejets

Etc

You can also add that Airbus is in charge now of sales and marketing of the CSeries. I bet they would make Jetblue as one of their most loyal customers a very good offer

lostsound wrote:

flyby519 wrote:

I'll bet Embraer is willing to give the E2 to B6 for a much lower price than BBD can discount the CSeries. This will be interesting. If Embraer can't convince their 2nd largest E190 operator to buy the E2 then that will look very bad.

This will be tough for B6 because they've publicly shown interest in the CSeries and publicly criticized their current E190 fleet. If they go Bombardier, Embraer might take extra measures in their accusations that the CSeries is undercutting their business because of unfair pricing. In addition, Boeing may use this as another example of Bombardier's cost cutting, interfering with the potential B6 order. However I personally believe the CS100 and/or CS300 really fits B6's network better in terms of range, capacity, and customer experience. Maybe we'll see what happens in Paris. B6 must be coming to a conclusion soon, they've been reviewing their E190s for like 2 years now.

First of all, it is quite impossible nowadays to get any aircraft cheaper than BBDs C-Series since they are impervious to dumping practices. Secondly, according to a lot of people on A.Net, every single company in the world would love to put their hands on C-Series frames so I am sorry if I take this with a pinch of salt.

B6 might even chose BBD's, or let's say, Airbus product but it will be hard to believe it given the fact that they would not be able to ditch the outstanding E190s they have on order which could be converted to the E2 if they ordered EMB. And, if they become the first ever airline to be offered the C-Series on something close to their real commercial prices, maybe due to a risk of Boeing and Embraer come in for them again, then a this prospect looks dead in the water.

It may not be a big significant order but I am quite certain they will go with the E2.

EMBSPBR wrote:

PlanesNTrains wrote:

Well, since you can’t say more, he’s been in the CSeries, he’s likely been in a number of Ejets, and the E2 hasn’t seen revenue service yet, it’s safe to say that - short a big surprise - he has a decent idea of how the two compare.

Except for the 2x2 configuration, the E2 is an new airplane and a completely different experience from the current EJets.

What about maintenance? Quite often we see people on a.net claiming that the E-Jets are plagued with maintenance issues, will Embraer resolve that matter with the E2?

Dash9 wrote:

oldannyboy wrote:

I don't know...but why is everyone else so happy about their E-Jets and B6 is invariably moaning about them??...

The other north american launch customer is Air Canada which is ditching its E190 fleet in favor of CS300. I wouldn't say everyone else is happy about the E190.

They were not unhappy with their E190s. Failrly happy actually last time I've heard.

But now that they came up for replacement, they've got a very niece sweetener to order BBDs instead and have done so.

If someone wants more info on this, please search A.Net's threads talking of their order when it was announced.

Goodyear wrote:

As someone who's done contract work for JetBlue related to the Embraer, I can tell you that they can't wait to get rid of this aircraft. Embraer are junk, throw-away airplanes. There's a reason why hundreds are in the desert or stuck in between leases for years on end or already scrapped. Even some E190s, including some formerly operated by JetBlue, have been scrapped. The quality simply is not there, and throwing two big shiny engines on it won't help much in that area.

I am sorry but this is an extremely poor comment. Maybe that's why you did contract work and did not get a PERMANENT job with them but let's leave at that.

Please provide a real and reliable link that attests the facts you quote. I am sure you do not have any.
If B6 could not wait to get rid of their EMBs, they would have already done so and ordered the C-Series which at present are flying, have orders but which they (B6) have not ordered yet.

All in all, they may prefer CSeries for the future but this is a far cry compared to what you state.

tphuang wrote:

EMBSPBR wrote:

Goodyear wrote:

As someone who's done contract work for JetBlue related to the Embraer, I can tell you that they can't wait to get rid of this aircraft. Embraer are junk, throw-away airplanes. There's a reason why hundreds are in the desert or stuck in between leases for years on end or already scrapped. Even some E190s, including some formerly operated by JetBlue, have been scrapped. The quality simply is not there, and throwing two big shiny engines on it won't help much in that area.

Do you like numbers ???
I do!

Those are the numbers for "Embraer junk, throw-away airplanes":

Source (yes, a valuable source, not yours):
http://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-e190.htm
Planes built 743
Active 682 -> 92%
Scrapped ??? Only two: one 190 prototype msn 2 and one 195 prototype msn 5.

JetBlue ???
Full list of all operational 60 here:
http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/JetB ... 190-35.htm

Total orders for E190-E1 and E190-E2:
Source:https://daflwcl3bnxyt.cloudfront.net/m/6be393e63be3d1f6/original/4Q17-Deliveries-Announcement-BR.pdf

Firm and options until Dec. 31st, 2018: 806.


And for the E175-E1:

Source: http://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-e170.htm
Planes built 701
Active 672 -> 96%

Total orders for E175-E1:
Source:https://daflwcl3bnxyt.cloudfront.net/m/6be393e63be3d1f6/original/4Q17-Deliveries-Announcement-BR.pdf

Firm and options until Dec. 31st, 2018: 949.

Yes, it´s a lot of junk ...

He is just telling you what a lot of people involved with JetBlue and E90 program thinks about E90. If you go to JetBlue pilot forum, the vast majority of people thinks this way. It doesn't matter that E90 has 2000+ mile range if nobody at JetBlue trust that it can fly over 1000 miles in an efficient manner. So the good people at Embraer has a lot to do to convince JetBlue that E2 has really improved in those areas.

One thing is to say that people are unhappy with their own early ordered planes - the other is to classify Embraer Planes as throwaway Junk when B6 still flies them and when other major airlines are fine and satisfied with theirs.

If you do agree with his comments at a face value then maybe you should feel sorry for yourself.

columba wrote:

PlanesNTrains wrote:

Andre3K wrote:

Would you be willing to state why you and the "fair number of folks" would prefer the CSeries? Lets assume that inside the aircraft you have the exact same experience.

First, I don’t think I need to state anything. If you find it odd that some might prefer one aircraft and others another, I can’t help you.

But - generically speaking - the CSeries might be preferred because:

—> They had a bad experience with the Ejet
—> They prefer more flexible seating options
—> They like only having to take a 20% hit when going from Y to F seating vs 25% on the Ejet
—> They want the range
—> They have a clean-sheet fetish
—> They think it looks better
—> Theh don’t trust Embraer anymore
—> They have flown in the CSeries and really liked it
—> They always root for the underdog
—> They’re sick of the Ejets

Etc

You can also add that Airbus is in charge now of sales and marketing of the CSeries. I bet they would make Jetblue as one of their most loyal customers a very good offer

And that might be the reason that, as per another post doing rounds, Airbus is actually INCREASING their production of A320s. Should not they reduce/keep output and market C-Series instead???

Also, following your argument, Boeing may just do the same with E2s. Both BBD and EMB are pawns of Airbus and Boeing. They may pick up a lot of orders (BBDs ones have not materialized so far...) but neither will go away.

columba wrote:

PlanesNTrains wrote:

Andre3K wrote:

Would you be willing to state why you and the "fair number of folks" would prefer the CSeries? Lets assume that inside the aircraft you have the exact same experience.

First, I don’t think I need to state anything. If you find it odd that some might prefer one aircraft and others another, I can’t help you.

But - generically speaking - the CSeries might be preferred because:

—> They had a bad experience with the Ejet
—> They prefer more flexible seating options
—> They like only having to take a 20% hit when going from Y to F seating vs 25% on the Ejet
—> They want the range
—> They have a clean-sheet fetish
—> They think it looks better
—> Theh don’t trust Embraer anymore
—> They have flown in the CSeries and really liked it
—> They always root for the underdog
—> They’re sick of the Ejets

Etc

You can also add that Airbus is in charge now of sales and marketing of the CSeries. I bet they would make Jetblue as one of their most loyal customers a very good offer

and I imagine that Boeing will not forget to mention that to EMB (and it's Govt Owners)??



cheers

PlanesNTrains wrote:

First, I don’t think I need to state anything. If you find it odd that some might prefer one aircraft and others another, I can’t help you.
But - generically speaking - the CSeries might be preferred because:
—> They had a bad experience with the Ejet
—> They prefer more flexible seating options
—> They like only having to take a 20% hit when going from Y to F seating vs 25% on the Ejet
—> They want the range
—> They have a clean-sheet fetish
—> They think it looks better
—> Theh don’t trust Embraer anymore
—> They have flown in the CSeries and really liked it
—> They always root for the underdog
—> They’re sick of the Ejets
Etc

This is not a relevant opinion.

This is just YOUR opinion and from which you want to state that it is shared by all the "folks" here "lovers of CSeries, the best plane ever".

The important opinion is of the airliners that operate it.
And they are not part of the "folks" here.

I'm sorry, but regardless of your argument, JetBlue will make its choice based on the terms it sets and not on the terms shared by the "folks" of this or other forum ...

I think at this point it would be better if you make it 100% clear that you do not like the Embraer and its products and we end this discussion, which in no way enriches the topic, the forum and its readers.

Thank you very much.

PlanesNTrains wrote:

Andre3K wrote:

PlanesNTrains wrote:

Btw, I’m not an E2 critic. I just think the CSeries may be found more compelling by a fair number of folks.

Would you be willing to state why you and the "fair number of folks" would prefer the CSeries? Lets assume that inside the aircraft you have the exact same experience.

First, I don’t think I need to state anything. If you find it odd that some might prefer one aircraft and others another, I can’t help you.

But - generically speaking - the CSeries might be preferred because:

—> They had a bad experience with the Ejet
—> They prefer more flexible seating options
—> They like only having to take a 20% hit when going from Y to F seating vs 25% on the Ejet
—> They want the range
—> They have a clean-sheet fetish
—> They think it looks better
—> Theh don’t trust Embraer anymore
—> They have flown in the CSeries and really liked it
—> They always root for the underdog
—> They’re sick of the Ejets

Etc

PlanesNTrains,

Would you like to provide us with official information on CSeries fleet dispatch reliability?

ps: They have a clean-sheet fetish.....hahahahha. Good try!

EMBSPBR wrote:

PlanesNTrains wrote:

First, I don’t think I need to state anything. If you find it odd that some might prefer one aircraft and others another, I can’t help you.
But - generically speaking - the CSeries might be preferred because:
—> They had a bad experience with the Ejet
—> They prefer more flexible seating options
—> They like only having to take a 20% hit when going from Y to F seating vs 25% on the Ejet
—> They want the range
—> They have a clean-sheet fetish
—> They think it looks better
—> Theh don’t trust Embraer anymore
—> They have flown in the CSeries and really liked it
—> They always root for the underdog
—> They’re sick of the Ejets
Etc

This is not a relevant opinion.

This is just YOUR opinion and from which you want to state that it is shared by all the "folks" here "lovers of CSeries, the best plane ever".

The important opinion is of the airliners that operate it.
And they are not part of the "folks" here.

I'm sorry, but regardless of your argument, JetBlue will make its choice based on the terms it sets and not on the terms shared by the "folks" of this or other forum ...

I think at this point it would be better if you make it 100% clear that you do not like the Embraer and its products and we end this discussion, which in no way enriches the topic, the forum and its readers.

Thank you very much.

Look it’s clear that you’re a very big E2 fan, with your picture and name. There is no need to jump on anyone who disses an aircraft.

Let's be honest - take off Embrear goggles and look at the bigger picture. B6 probably wont go for the E2 unless its a silly discount.

IMO,the order will go to the CS because Airbus will offer a good price on the aircraft, and throw in some Airbus services for the A320s JB already owns. I don't know if JB does not like their 190s, however, if true its makes this decision easier.

The E2 will be another history. Embraer was plagged by being the earlier adopter for several new technogies in E1. It was the first civil aircraft to employ Integrated Modular Avionics, Integrated Pitostatic Airdata and Digitar Power distribution. The customers who picked the aircraft first, got several new technologies which were still not mature. Now 15 years later, the industry has evolved a lot, and these technologies are very mature. And Embraer did not the same mistake on E2, by using only already proven systems in the Flight Controls, Avionics and Electrical system. There is no single new system installed on E2 that has not being already employed somewhere else. So be sure that the aircraft will be very mature for EIS.

But on the other hand, Embraer used those systems very wisely to develop the airframe and aerodynamics. The aircraft was build around the Fly by Wire protections to improve performance and reducing aerodynamic loads. That's why that even by not using composite materials on the wings, the aircraft is still very light. And the Fly by Wire was also used to mimetize the E1 flying qualities, and for that reason you have a common type rating, requiring only 2.5 days of transition training.

The aircraft is very good. But I believe that it will struggle in sales due to the large amount of used narrowbodies in the market, mostly due to the high production rate that Airbus and Boeing are doing with their narrowbodies. This is putting a large pressure in the whole industry, from supply chain to other manufactures like Embraer, BBD, etc.

Jomar777 wrote:

B6 might even chose BBD's, or let's say, Airbus product but it will be hard to believe it given the fact that they would not be able to ditch the outstanding E190s they have on order which could be converted to the E2 if they ordered EMB.

Why not?

Boeing bought back 25 of AC's E190s when they sold them the B737 Max. It wouldn't be too far fetched to think Airbus/BBD could offer a similar deal on some of B6s older E190s.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-can ... -1.2460560

Nean1 wrote:

PlanesNTrains,

Would you like to provide us with official information on CSeries fleet dispatch reliability?

According to Sylvain Faust, who follows the Bombardier CSeries more closely than anyone else, dispatch reliability of the CSeries at Swiss is currently at 99.5%.

https://www.fliegerfaust.com/swiss-cser ... 53785.html

That rate is what BBD promised 2 years after EIS.

https://commercialaircraft.bombardier.c ... ility.html

Waterbomber wrote:

I doubt that Airbus is going to let this one slide to Embraer.
Personally I think that Embraer doesn't stand a chance.

Jetblue is not convinced by Embraer, otherwise they would have converted remaining E90 orders to the E2 version a long time ago.
On the other hand, existing Cseries customers can't praise the aircraft enough.

There's alot more to operating an aircraft than just fuel burn and number of seats, and some of them are reliability, maintenance-friendliness, support, and capital cost. Having the Airbus mass puts the Cseries in a diferent class of aircraft.

I think JetBlue wants more numbers from both Bombardier and Embraer. Both would discount heavily on an order for a hundred C-series or E2-195. I think JetBlue wants really cheap CS300s.

Now I'll admit my bias. I really want LGB to TPA, MCO, and JAX flights (direct) which the E2 won't do. So I have an inherent bias in the range I want JetBlue to buy.

Let us be direct. JetBlue will not order the E2-190. It is E2-195 or C-series. JetBlue needs a little more range than the E2-190s provide and will put in tighter pitch seating.

I think the ability to fly between West coast and East coast bases has value for JetBlue, but see my bias above.

Since JetBlue ordering either right now would instantly change the fate of either program, whomever doesn't discount is being short sighted.

I think we can all agree that B6 is going to be very smart about it's next buy. I haven't had the chance to fly on the C Series, but from what I have seen, it's a perfect plane for B6. Having flown on the Embraer 190, I am also a huge fan of the plane.

Embraers new E2 looks awesome. However, I think Airbus is going to jump hard on this one.

Speaking of. Any ramp rats want to chime in? Do we have anyone who has worked the ramp on the C Series and the Embraer? What's the difference in servicing the planes? Does either plane have advantages?

I do recall the 190 being a massive PITA to load and offload. The floors in the bins had some type of rubber garbage near the door. So, when I would launch a bag to capture the belt loader, it would stop short. Meaning, a single person in bin the rear bins was difficult when heavily loaded.

Nean1 wrote:

PlanesNTrains wrote:

Andre3K wrote:

Would you be willing to state why you and the "fair number of folks" would prefer the CSeries? Lets assume that inside the aircraft you have the exact same experience.

First, I don’t think I need to state anything. If you find it odd that some might prefer one aircraft and others another, I can’t help you.

But - generically speaking - the CSeries might be preferred because:

—> They had a bad experience with the Ejet
—> They prefer more flexible seating options
—> They like only having to take a 20% hit when going from Y to F seating vs 25% on the Ejet
—> They want the range
—> They have a clean-sheet fetish
—> They think it looks better
—> Theh don’t trust Embraer anymore
—> They have flown in the CSeries and really liked it
—> They always root for the underdog
—> They’re sick of the Ejets

Etc

PlanesNTrains,

Would you like to provide us with official information on CSeries fleet dispatch reliability?

ps: They have a clean-sheet fetish.....hahahahha. Good try!

Huh? 99.4% for Air Baltic, this is far better than any Embraer EIS at a similar maturity.

My comment is that Pratt and Bombardier are working to best the 99.7% of the 737.

https://howlingpixel.com/wiki/Bombardier_CSeries

What is the current B6 E-190 dispatch reliability? I expect the E2-195 to be better in a year.

Is the E2 basically a clean sheet or a minor upgrade? It will do better thanks to pw1500g duty maturing the engine.

Lightsaber

EMBSPBR wrote:

PlanesNTrains wrote:

First, I don’t think I need to state anything. If you find it odd that some might prefer one aircraft and others another, I can’t help you.
But - generically speaking - the CSeries might be preferred because:
—> They had a bad experience with the Ejet
—> They prefer more flexible seating options
—> They like only having to take a 20% hit when going from Y to F seating vs 25% on the Ejet
—> They want the range
—> They have a clean-sheet fetish
—> They think it looks better
—> Theh don’t trust Embraer anymore
—> They have flown in the CSeries and really liked it
—> They always root for the underdog
—> They’re sick of the Ejets
Etc

This is not a relevant opinion.

This is just YOUR opinion and from which you want to state that it is shared by all the "folks" here "lovers of CSeries, the best plane ever".

The important opinion is of the airliners that operate it.
And they are not part of the "folks" here.

I'm sorry, but regardless of your argument, JetBlue will make its choice based on the terms it sets and not on the terms shared by the "folks" of this or other forum ...

I think at this point it would be better if you make it 100% clear that you do not like the Embraer and its products and we end this discussion, which in no way enriches the topic, the forum and its readers.

Thank you very much.

I’m just going to chalk all this up to one big misunderstanding of what I’m saying and why I’m saying it.

Nean1 wrote:

PlanesNTrains wrote:

Andre3K wrote:

Would you be willing to state why you and the "fair number of folks" would prefer the CSeries? Lets assume that inside the aircraft you have the exact same experience.

First, I don’t think I need to state anything. If you find it odd that some might prefer one aircraft and others another, I can’t help you.

But - generically speaking - the CSeries might be preferred because:

—> They had a bad experience with the Ejet
—> They prefer more flexible seating options
—> They like only having to take a 20% hit when going from Y to F seating vs 25% on the Ejet
—> They want the range
—> They have a clean-sheet fetish
—> They think it looks better
—> Theh don’t trust Embraer anymore
—> They have flown in the CSeries and really liked it
—> They always root for the underdog
—> They’re sick of the Ejets

Etc

PlanesNTrains,

Would you like to provide us with official information on CSeries fleet dispatch reliability?

ps: They have a clean-sheet fetish.....hahahahha. Good try!

It looks like others have shared that.

ikolkyo wrote:

EMBSPBR wrote:

PlanesNTrains wrote:

First, I don’t think I need to state anything. If you find it odd that some might prefer one aircraft and others another, I can’t help you.
But - generically speaking - the CSeries might be preferred because:
—> They had a bad experience with the Ejet
—> They prefer more flexible seating options
—> They like only having to take a 20% hit when going from Y to F seating vs 25% on the Ejet
—> They want the range
—> They have a clean-sheet fetish
—> They think it looks better
—> Theh don’t trust Embraer anymore
—> They have flown in the CSeries and really liked it
—> They always root for the underdog
—> They’re sick of the Ejets
Etc

This is not a relevant opinion.

This is just YOUR opinion and from which you want to state that it is shared by all the "folks" here "lovers of CSeries, the best plane ever".

The important opinion is of the airliners that operate it.
And they are not part of the "folks" here.

I'm sorry, but regardless of your argument, JetBlue will make its choice based on the terms it sets and not on the terms shared by the "folks" of this or other forum ...

I think at this point it would be better if you make it 100% clear that you do not like the Embraer and its products and we end this discussion, which in no way enriches the topic, the forum and its readers.

Thank you very much.

Look it’s clear that you’re a very big E2 fan, with your picture and name. There is no need to jump on anyone who disses an aircraft.

What’s weird is I never tried to diminish the Ejet. I’ve always been very fond of it, clearly a thought shared by numerous airlines and countless passengers. I think I got sucked into the pro-E2/anti-CSeries rhetoric, which I now regret.

PlanesNTrains wrote:

ikolkyo wrote:

EMBSPBR wrote:

This is not a relevant opinion.

This is just YOUR opinion and from which you want to state that it is shared by all the "folks" here "lovers of CSeries, the best plane ever".

The important opinion is of the airliners that operate it.
And they are not part of the "folks" here.

I'm sorry, but regardless of your argument, JetBlue will make its choice based on the terms it sets and not on the terms shared by the "folks" of this or other forum ...

I think at this point it would be better if you make it 100% clear that you do not like the Embraer and its products and we end this discussion, which in no way enriches the topic, the forum and its readers.

Thank you very much.

Look it’s clear that you’re a very big E2 fan, with your picture and name. There is no need to jump on anyone who disses an aircraft.

What’s weird is I never tried to diminish the Ejet. I’ve always been very fond of it, clearly a thought shared by numerous airlines and countless passengers. I think I got sucked into the pro-E2/anti-CSeries rhetoric, which I now regret.

I think dissing was the wrong word to use, he’s jumped on me in the past over me talking about CSeries vs E2 for DL.

People claim to have seen a E195 over in the B6 hanger a couple days ago, which makes me sad. If it really is going to be a 195 instead of 190, then just go with the cs100 and be done with it, or stick with 320s.

About range, the 190 has more range then the 195 right? Can a e190-e2 do a transcon?

CobaltScar wrote:

People claim to have seen a E195 over in the B6 hanger a couple days ago, which makes me sad. If it really is going to be a 195 instead of 190, then just go with the cs100 and be done with it, or stick with 320s.

About range, the 190 has more range then the 195 right? Can a e190-e2 do a transcon?

Yep it was an E195E2 at B6

The range issue is a very interesting question that I think we still don't know the answer to. Embraer is saying 2600 nm for the 195 last I saw. A lightsaber said earlier the trick of the 195 versus the 190 is it gives you the extra passengers to pay for mainline crews, the 195 E2 I'm sure has substantially better CASM than the 190 E2 even which makes it really the only option in the Jetblue fight versus the CSeries.

Found an article looking like Bombardier is predicting 40 C Series this year produced, albeit with their record so far this year even that seems pretty optimistic. I'm beginning to think availability might make more of a difference in this order than I previously thought.

Jomar777 wrote:

Goodyear wrote:

As someone who's done contract work for JetBlue related to the Embraer, I can tell you that they can't wait to get rid of this aircraft. Embraer are junk, throw-away airplanes. There's a reason why hundreds are in the desert or stuck in between leases for years on end or already scrapped. Even some E190s, including some formerly operated by JetBlue, have been scrapped. The quality simply is not there, and throwing two big shiny engines on it won't help much in that area.

I am sorry but this is an extremely poor comment. Maybe that's why you did contract work and did not get a PERMANENT job with them but let's leave at that.

Please provide a real and reliable link that attests the facts you quote. I am sure you do not have any.
If B6 could not wait to get rid of their EMBs, they would have already done so and ordered the C-Series which at present are flying, have orders but which they (B6) have not ordered yet.

All in all, they may prefer CSeries for the future but this is a far cry compared to what you state.

Contractors probably make more than anyone at JetBlue anyways.

I will ignore the personal attacks. He's probably just a gate agent or bag thrower anyway with no real insight. Anyway, the dumbest thing JetBlue did was go for the E190. They know this and will not repeat the same mistake again. Unless of course Emrbaer basically gives them free airplanes again, which speaks for itself. This is all assuming of course that they are not bought outright by United or Southwest in a hostile takeover attempt which is a very real possibility.

lightsaber wrote:

Nean1 wrote:

PlanesNTrains wrote:

First, I don’t think I need to state anything. If you find it odd that some might prefer one aircraft and others another, I can’t help you.

But - generically speaking - the CSeries might be preferred because:

—> They had a bad experience with the Ejet
—> They prefer more flexible seating options
—> They like only having to take a 20% hit when going from Y to F seating vs 25% on the Ejet
—> They want the range
—> They have a clean-sheet fetish
—> They think it looks better
—> Theh don’t trust Embraer anymore
—> They have flown in the CSeries and really liked it
—> They always root for the underdog
—> They’re sick of the Ejets

Etc

PlanesNTrains,

Would you like to provide us with official information on CSeries fleet dispatch reliability?

ps: They have a clean-sheet fetish.....hahahahha. Good try!

Huh? 99.4% for Air Baltic, this is far better than any Embraer EIS at a similar maturity.

My comment is that Pratt and Bombardier are working to best the 99.7% of the 737.

https://howlingpixel.com/wiki/Bombardier_CSeries

What is the current B6 E-190 dispatch reliability? I expect the E2-195 to be better in a year.

Is the E2 basically a clean sheet or a minor upgrade? It will do better thanks to pw1500g duty maturing the engine.

Lightsaber

This 99.4% is the engine dispatch reliability. This information has been clarified on the Aviation Week news after it has been contested. The full aircraft dispatch reliability is under that and not disclosed.

Goodyear wrote:

I will ignore the personal attacks. He's probably just a gate agent or bag thrower anyway with no real insight. Anyway, the dumbest thing JetBlue did was go for the E190. They know this and will not repeat the same mistake again. Unless of course Emrbaer basically gives them free airplanes again, which speaks for itself. This is all assuming of course that they are not bought outright by United or Southwest in a hostile takeover attempt which is a very real possibility.

So if Jetblue goes E2 over the CSeries, it's because they got the planes basically for free? Got it.

Goodyear wrote:

I will ignore the personal attacks. He's probably just a gate agent or bag thrower anyway with no real insight. Anyway, the dumbest thing JetBlue did was go for the E190. They know this and will not repeat the same mistake again. Unless of course Emrbaer basically gives them free airplanes again, which speaks for itself. This is all assuming of course that they are not bought outright by United or Southwest in a hostile takeover attempt which is a very real possibility.

No a hostile takeover is not a real possibility especially from United.
If anything jetblue hasn’t even given a clue which way they lean.