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Whalejet
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Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:12 pm

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-an ... d=47825302

Announcement is live right now. He's citing the fact that ATC still uses Radar instead of GPS, uses pens and paper etc. Thoughts?
 
GoSteelers
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:20 pm

Only one plane can use each runway at the same time...
 
sccutler
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:24 pm

Spectacularly bad idea. Nothing but a revenue grab.
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:24 pm

This was coming Trump or Hillary IMHO. There is probabbly little downside and huge potential benefits.
 
DCA2DFWflyer
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:25 pm

What's the downside of this? What are the advantages? I don't know enough about ATC to form an opinion.
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:26 pm

Go for it President Trump. Privatize it and make it more modern, efficient and effective.
 
Mir
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:27 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
This was coming Trump or Hillary IMHO. There is probabbly little downside and huge potential benefits.


The last time this was done (with Flight Service Stations), there were few benefits and a lot of downsides.

I don't expect this to be much different, certainly not with Trump at the helm. The US ATC system is extremely robust and does what it does amazingly well. There is little reason to do fundamental fixes when the system isn't broken and just needs some upgrades here and there.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:33 pm

What possibly could go wrong? :spin:
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:33 pm

Reuters didn't have much to say about the plan. Maybe, like the tax cut, there isn't much of a plan - just a directional wish with little chance of passing Congress.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... SKBN18W215

'In a summary document sent to airlines and interest groups before the meeting, the Trump administration proposes a three-year transition period to shift oversight of air traffic control.

The proposal says a board made up of airline, union and airport officials would oversee the non-profit entity. The new entity should honor existing labor agreements but controllers would no longer be federal employees.'

Maybe we will soon see IATA, Airlines for America, ALPA, and APA weigh in.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:38 pm

IMHO they should be restructured as follows
Self-funded
a) Air Traffic Management (Privatize, Canada, and the UK are best examples)
b) Airframe Registrations (DMV/SoS are managed by private companies, why not aircraft registrations)

Hybrid funding (Fees and federal budget)
c) Aviation Security (TSA)

Tax-payer funded
d) Type Certification (Keep with FAA)
e) New NTSB: Flight Safety Regulation/Oversight(Current FAA) & Accident Investigation (Current NTSB)
 
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par13del
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:45 pm

Well, we will now see who has the bigger influence in the Washington swamp, the airlines who want to see GA taxes and fees to severely reduce their numbers or the GA folks who want to maintain the status quo.
 
Flighty
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:02 pm

Given how few airlines there are, I would expect they control relatively few congressional delegates.

One option is, in congested airspace, airlines should pay a sliding fee up to 1 million dollars per flight.
 
MO11
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:03 pm

As long as Congress has no authority once privatization takes place, then it should work. Otherwise, it will be another US Postal Service or Amtrak.
 
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klm617
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:24 pm

What is wrong with paper and pencils at least there can't be a computer meltdown that would bring the entire aviation network grinding to a halt. If it is broke don't mess with it.
 
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jnev3289
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:28 pm

klm617 wrote:
What is wrong with paper and pencils at least there can't be a computer meltdown that would bring the entire aviation network grinding to a halt. If it is broke don't mess with it.

This way of thinking is how stubborn, inflexible companies go out of business
 
Varsity1
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:30 pm

This has been 'In the pipe' for 30 years.
 
fun2fly
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:38 pm

Quoting the Reuters article: House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi said in a statement that Trump was recycling "a tired Republican plan that both sides of the aisle have rejected" and would "hand control of one of our nation’s most important public assets to special interests and the big airlines."

Larry Kellner told me that he had the same conversation with Pres. G W Bush when he was still the CEO at CO. Let's see if Trump can make it happen as this was a long time Republican plan, but never came to fruition.

I don't know who should run the ATC, but I do know it should be improved.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:40 pm

Flighty wrote:
Given how few airlines there are, I would expect they control relatively few congressional delegates.

Huh?

They can split their money among any number of Congresspersons that they wish... it's not like each airline only gets one.

Hell, DL's in the pocket of every politician from New York, Delaware, Michigan, California, Washington, Minnesota, Utah and of course Georgia. Same for the others in their respective places of interest.
 
dubaiamman243
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:54 pm

I think next will be airports infrastructure.
 
masseybrown
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:03 pm

The biggest benefit I can see is getting out from under federal govt. IT procurement regs. There's a reason the government is so bad at IT projects.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:14 pm

Unless Trump redesigns NextGen and restarts bidding process, we know who are the winners.

NextGen is not viable because even after $45 Billion taxpayer funding, airlines are estimated to pay $7B as fees to Inmarsat. NASA/DoD should provide this service free of cost to airlines.
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:04 pm

I'm off two minds: NavCanada and NATS show that a privatised operator can maintain service quality and facilitate infrastructure investment. In principle I think it's a good thing.

The problem with privatising for the sake of privatising is that if the ground work isn't put in place before hand then the operating costs of the private vendor tend to balloon. Look at jails as an example.

Consider for a moment Airservices Australia which is run as a corporation but entirely government owned. They could be privatised because they have proper corporate management and reporting procedures in place, and because there is already a "cost" culture.

The FAA - and any government department not run on corporate grounds - does not have that. That isn't a criticism, just reality. Every now and then there will be a cost cutting drive or whatever, but the top-to-bottom corporate culture isn't there. The problem with this is that if you privatise a bureaucracy without corporatising it first then you still have a bloated, inefficient, bureaucratic organisation, but one that is no longer restrained in the way it once was. It invariably ends up even more of a mess than it already was.
 
b747400erf
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:07 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
This was coming Trump or Hillary IMHO. There is probabbly little downside and huge potential benefits.

show your work
 
b747400erf
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:09 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
Go for it President Trump. Privatize it and make it more modern, efficient and effective.

squeezing every last dime of profitability does not modernise or make it efficient and effective. But congrats on your MBA diploma.
 
b747400erf
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:12 pm

MO11 wrote:
As long as Congress has no authority once privatization takes place, then it should work. Otherwise, it will be another US Postal Service or Amtrak.

These programs are not designed to make profits and have been hurt by Congress forcing overfunding of health care. In the Post Office example they also have to serve every inch of America for flat rates. Amtrak has had to give control of tracks to private freight companies for their added profit.
 
b747400erf
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:16 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
I'm off two minds: NavCanada and NATS show that a privatised operator can maintain service quality and facilitate infrastructure investment. In principle I think it's a good thing.

The problem with privatising for the sake of privatising is that if the ground work isn't put in place before hand then the operating costs of the private vendor tend to balloon. Look at jails as an example.

Consider for a moment Airservices Australia which is run as a corporation but entirely government owned. They could be privatised because they have proper corporate management and reporting procedures in place, and because there is already a "cost" culture.

The FAA - and any government department not run on corporate grounds - does not have that. That isn't a criticism, just reality. Every now and then there will be a cost cutting drive or whatever, but the top-to-bottom corporate culture isn't there. The problem with this is that if you privatise a bureaucracy without corporatising it first then you still have a bloated, inefficient, bureaucratic organisation, but one that is no longer restrained in the way it once was. It invariably ends up even more of a mess than it already was.

It is important to note your examples are non profit and public/private partnership. The Republicans in America do not believe in this, their economic beliefs are identical to the selloffs of assets that created the Russian oligarchy.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:19 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
Go for it President Trump. Privatize it and make it more modern, efficient and effective.


I agree 100%. It's about time. The current system is old, ineffective and expensive.
 
domokun
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:50 pm

b747400erf wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
Go for it President Trump. Privatize it and make it more modern, efficient and effective.

squeezing every last dime of profitability does not modernise or make it efficient and effective. But congrats on your MBA diploma.


I rarely comment here; anyone with a business school degree woulds probably not want to privatize atc. Too costly, high risk, likely low return.
 
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11725Flyer
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:52 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
Go for it President Trump. Privatize it and make it more modern, efficient and effective.


I agree 100%. It's about time. The current system is old, ineffective and expensive.


I'll pile on. It's about time. Heck, even the air traffic controllers support the change.

A few pros and cons:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... 97e076329d
 
domokun
Posts: 206
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:54 pm

11725Flyer wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
Go for it President Trump. Privatize it and make it more modern, efficient and effective.


I agree 100%. It's about time. The current system is old, ineffective and expensive.


I'll pile on. It's about time. Heck, even the air traffic controllers support the change.

A few pros and cons:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... 97e076329d



"But the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service reported last month that there appears to be no conclusive evidence that any of those approaches is better or worse than government-run services, including the FAA’s, in terms of productivity, cost-effectiveness, service quality, and safety and security."
 
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Frontier14
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:09 pm

This was coming sooner or later as the FAA has failed to make the modernization of the nation\'s ATC system a significant issue to Congress. Guess we will have to wait and see if anything becomes of it.

Frontier 14
 
airzona11
Posts: 1895
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:31 pm

b747400erf wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
I'm off two minds: NavCanada and NATS show that a privatised operator can maintain service quality and facilitate infrastructure investment. In principle I think it's a good thing.

The problem with privatising for the sake of privatising is that if the ground work isn't put in place before hand then the operating costs of the private vendor tend to balloon. Look at jails as an example.

Consider for a moment Airservices Australia which is run as a corporation but entirely government owned. They could be privatised because they have proper corporate management and reporting procedures in place, and because there is already a "cost" culture.

The FAA - and any government department not run on corporate grounds - does not have that. That isn't a criticism, just reality. Every now and then there will be a cost cutting drive or whatever, but the top-to-bottom corporate culture isn't there. The problem with this is that if you privatise a bureaucracy without corporatising it first then you still have a bloated, inefficient, bureaucratic organisation, but one that is no longer restrained in the way it once was. It invariably ends up even more of a mess than it already was.

It is important to note your examples are non profit and public/private partnership. The Republicans in America do not believe in this, their economic beliefs are identical to the selloffs of assets that created the Russian oligarchy.


Private Public Partnerships are very prominent and most of them are all in critical infrastructure projects water/waste/energy/internet/even local/state/federal buildings. That is reality, they are becoming more and more popular. The gov't funded and controlled infrastructure across the US in need of repair will benefit greatly from this partnership.

The ATC system is with private control/tech/financing is a great application.

This happens on the state and local level most often, which since you brought it up are run by majority Republicans.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:31 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
IMHO they should be restructured as follows

...

e) New NTSB: Flight Safety Regulation/Oversight(Current FAA) & Accident Investigation (Current NTSB)

The regulatory/oversight body should be independent of the investigation body, given one of the things which needs to be investigated in an accident is whether regulations and oversight (or lack thereof) contributed to the event.

V/F
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:40 pm

I believe this could be a good thing. Keep the overall industry (safety, technology, etc...) under FAA guidelines and leave it to competition for the innovations.
 
ASQ400
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:44 pm

Just watch some airline try to buy into it.
 
747megatop
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:53 pm

DCA2DFWflyer wrote:
What's the downside of this? What are the advantages? I don't know enough about ATC to form an opinion.

Before they privatize it they should make sure that the groundwork for fool proof & heavy regulation is laid down. We are talking about a critical sector here with many lives involved. Othwerwise the downside is that safety could suffer at the hands of people (CEOs and boards?) who are answerable to Wall Stree for profits and stock price.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:54 pm

Shouldn't he do this with the USPS first? :duck:
 
GoSteelers
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:36 pm

I'm not sure how anyone could call the U.S. ATC system "ineffective"...

Explain please.
 
AEROFAN
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:37 pm

So what happens with the privatization of ATC? Does each carrier pay a fee per craft? Would it be a standard fee for any type or do larger crafts pay a higher fee? Will there be tiered pricing? Do you get landing and take off preference? How will this be passed on to customers? Like the PFC assessments?
 
Caveman1
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:01 pm

Modernization in the US ATC System is slow. It is getting better. I have gone from 10 inch RADAR scopes with just beacon codes and altitudes to a digital display.

Capacity increase is limited to the amount of pavement that is available.

Airports like Newark are the bane of the ATC system. When airlines are allowed to schedule the maximum movements per hour on a good day, and keep that number of operations during bad weather days, where winds and other weather dictates unfavorable configurations. There is just no way to avoid a situation that will cause delays.

A sliding scale system of fees for operations at certain key airports for time of arrivals during peak hours would be essential. That scale needs to take into account the number of passengers available on that aircraft. IE: a 50 seater at peak hours should cost the same as a 787 for landing fees. This would make it more profitable for airlines to fly larger aircraft through an airport increasing that airports passenger capacity.

Flying GA aircraft, even small ones, is very expensive. A C152 can often run over 100$ per hour. Increasing those fees would cripple an industry that is already on the decline.

A small registration fee per aircraft done during its annual inspection say of 50$ may be appropriate. Fuel taxes, although high already, may need to be increased. That would be all you could really expect small GA to afford.

Just a drop in the bucket of what is going on.
 
FlyUSAir
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:06 pm

It's coming guys, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Many modern countries including a bunch of Europe and Canada have it. That being said, there has to be infrastructure & plans in place. There has to be lots of groundwork in place to make sure it goes smoothly and flawlessly.
 
jeffrey1970
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:20 pm

Flighty wrote:
Given how few airlines there are, I would expect they control relatively few congressional delegates.

One option is, in congested airspace, airlines should pay a sliding fee up to 1 million dollars per flight.


Remember though, California, Illinois, Texas, and Florida all have hubs in them. Plus, since they are heavily populated they have lots of congressional seats.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:26 pm

Flighty wrote:
One option is, in congested airspace, airlines should pay a sliding fee up to 1 million dollars per flight.

Where do you get the amount of 1 million dollars from? For an aircraft with 500 passengers on board, that's $2,000/passenger. 200 passengers? Then you'd be looking at $5,000/passenger. To me that seems both unreasonable and unsustainable.

V/F
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:34 pm

sccutler wrote:
Spectacularly bad idea. Nothing but a revenue grab.


Iirc correctly there are international treaties in place prohibiting for profit ATC, surplus has to be paid back to the users.

Best regards
Thomas
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:42 pm

747megatop wrote:
DCA2DFWflyer wrote:
What's the downside of this? What are the advantages? I don't know enough about ATC to form an opinion.

Before they privatize it they should make sure that the groundwork for fool proof & heavy regulation is laid down. We are talking about a critical sector here with many lives involved. Othwerwise the downside is that safety could suffer at the hands of people (CEOs and boards?) who are answerable to Wall Stree for profits and stock price.


That is why Germany, and I understand most other countries, has kept a blocking majority (25% plus 1 share) in the privatised ATC, which is run as a non-profit ltd. Fees have to be ok'ed by the DoT.

Best regards
Thomas
 
Natflyer
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:49 pm

The FAA should not run or operate anything. Just be a regulator. Of aircraft operators, airports and ATC providers. About time.
 
Indy
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:37 am

Yeah no thanks. Privatization may work in some countries but not in the U.S. where greed is king. Roads get privatized and the cost of tolls go up and the condition of the roads go down. Look at prisons. They get more expensive per prisoner yet the prisoner sees less and less. No matter what you were paying before, the corporation is taking their cut out of that money. So you either have to pay significantly more to get the same level of service or your service is going to get cut dramatically. What a profit first mentality in ATC? The ATC should never have to answer to shareholders... ever.
 
SWALUV
Posts: 205
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:45 am

This will do more harm then good. This will do nothing but benefit the airlines and hurt GA. There is a reason why the US has one of, if not the largest GA community, it's because ATC works with us and keeps our cost low.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:51 am

The principal plus point is investment. A privatised entity can leverage its assets into borrowing to renew the service, without having to go through Government balance sheets and with all the delay and politicking that goes with it. Debt is kept off the State's tab. There may be a downside of interest rates being a bit higher but the commercial freedom of not having congress critters put their fingers into a funding request is worth the extra.

Paper and pencil is today's system but can be retained as an immediate backup to the new (streamlined) centres.

Putting in oversight from the FAA as well as laws to ensure neutrality if airlines are also investors makes sure it all works.Having airlines own stock in the company and seats on the board makes sure that there are no huge increases in charges. It is in their interest for it all to work. NATS in the UK is one example of how it can be done, as air traffic control was successfully detatched from the CAA and privatised.
 
NickLAX
Posts: 294
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Re: Trump announces plan to privatize Air Traffic Control

Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:06 am

Those calling the current system ineffective have to have their head in the damn sand. Look at other national or private run ATC's. No one, REPEAT no one has as much traffic as us, has to deal with private and airline traffic and has done so VERY safely for years. Those saying it will make it better, you do get that someone won't do this for charity - it's a damn money grab by this IDIOT POTUS to his buddies. There is ZERO reason to privatize a system that with proper congressional prior taxes did well. You think a for profit provider will invest BILLIONS if profit margins are thin.

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