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embraer175e2
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Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:21 am

According to wikipidia the New managment at CA claims the 600series best sold turboprop in its class is unreliable and needs subsitution in their fleet.

Opinions please
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:25 am

Cite your source because I'm not seeing this.
 
 
baje427
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:10 am

One of their frames has had a fair bit of engine problems in the past and this was reported in February are the issues still persisting?
 
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andrefranca
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:12 am

when I flew them they had the DASH, why don`t they bring them back?
 
anshabhi
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:37 am

whom have they leased from?
My guess: that same Irish lessor.
 
guyanam
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:41 am

baje427 wrote:
One of their frames has had a fair bit of engine problems in the past and this was reported in February are the issues still persisting?



I think that one of the planes was replaced as it was agreed that there was a defect. I don't know if that solves the problem. The manufacturer paid for a replacement ATR while they investigated the reason for the ongoing problem.
 
bimjim
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:47 pm

Caribbean Airline purchased the ATRs, no leases (yet).

From Day 1 they had serious problems, to the point where ATR stationed factory enguneers in Trinidad to keep them flying. The problems persist, at times crews declaring emergencies and returning to the runway.

The ATRs were purchased to perform the 15-minute Air Bridge between Trinidad and Tobago, and reliability has now deteriorated to the point where the B738 jet fleet do quite a few trips to satisfy the backlogs.

My personal opinion is that the ATRs were chosen to replace the Dash-8s purely for kick-back and commission purposes, like the Q400 such aircraft are not suitable for 15-minute hops all day. The same thing happened at LIAT and BahamasAir, so somebody in the region is getting nimmensely rich - along with the politicians they manage to include in their promotions.

In LIAT's case, the presentation was to a politically appointed (friends and grass-roots Party faithful) Board who had - and still have - no clue whatsoever about airplanes, aviation or airports, so a few bright flashing lights and some shiny beads and they would have been mesmerised with the awesomeness of it all.

For a full history olf Caribbean Airlines over the last decade or so, go through this Board...
http://www.craneforum.org/viewforum.php?f=74
 
vfw614
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:52 pm

Well, if the ATRs and Q400s are not suitable for the island-hopping style operation, what can LIAT, Carribean do? Turn into a shipping company? There is nothing else available on the market.

However, I am not really buying the story. ATRs have served, for example, the Canary Island inter-island routes for something like 20+ years now. These are also fairly short hops.
 
A388
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:23 pm

I agree with vfw614. These airlines have no other choice then the ATR or the Q400. I also don't completely buy it that only in our region these aircraft supposed to be performing bad and nowhere else. I have read here about a Hawaiian airline also not being satisfied with the ATR but also don't know how credible that story is. How is this aircraft performing in Asia and Brazil and the Canary Islands?

A388
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:35 pm


06JAN2016
Caribbean Airlines (BW, Port of Spain) management has considered replacing its Avions de Transport Régional (Toulouse Blagnac) fleet with comparable turboprops sourced from Bombardier (BBA, Montréal Trudeau) following the former's persistent reliability problems.

Trinidad & Tobago's BusinessDay says that in his 2016 strategic plan, former Chief Executive Officer (CEO) Michael Di Lollo described the ATRs as “not mission capable” after they suffered from frequent AOG (Aircraft On Ground) occurrences. On his recommendation, overtures were made to the Canadians about sourcing Dash 8-400s to replace the carrier's fleet of five ATR72-600s.

Caribbean Airlines ordered nine ATR72-600s in 2010 to replace its five Dash 8-300s.

The ATR72s are currently used on Caribbean Airlines' air-bridge services from Port of Spain to Tobago locally and Bridgetown, Grenada, and St. Lucia Vigie regionally.


https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... eplacement
 
LimaFoxTango
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:22 pm

bimjim wrote:
My personal opinion is that the ATRs were chosen to replace the Dash-8s purely for kick-back and commission purposes, like the Q400 such aircraft are not suitable for 15-minute hops all day. The same thing happened at LIAT and BahamasAir, so somebody in the region is getting nimmensely rich - along with the politicians they manage to include in their promotions.


I don't hear LIAT, Bahamasair, Air Antilles or Air Caraibes complaining....but I don't expect anything else better coming from you.
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
sincx
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:37 pm

A388 wrote:
I agree with vfw614. These airlines have no other choice then the ATR or the Q400. I also don't completely buy it that only in our region these aircraft supposed to be performing bad and nowhere else. I have read here about a Hawaiian airline also not being satisfied with the ATR but also don't know how credible that story is. How is this aircraft performing in Asia and Brazil and the Canary Islands?

A388

Island Air is not happy with their ATR 72-200s and is ordering Q400s as replacements.
 
SFOATLFlyer
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:41 pm

vfw614 wrote:
Well, if the ATRs and Q400s are not suitable for the island-hopping style operation, what can LIAT, Carribean do? Turn into a shipping company? There is nothing else available on the market.

However, I am not really buying the story. ATRs have served, for example, the Canary Island inter-island routes for something like 20+ years now. These are also fairly short hops.


AA Eagle flew them around the Caribbean for years. Granted they were not 600's, but seems off.
 
A388
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:45 pm

I agree with LimaFoxTango. Something isn't right about this supposed claims of these ATR's being really so bad at Caribbean Airlines as mentioned here. I wonder what's true and what's not true here.

A388
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:28 pm

sincx wrote:
A388 wrote:
I agree with vfw614. These airlines have no other choice then the ATR or the Q400. I also don't completely buy it that only in our region these aircraft supposed to be performing bad and nowhere else. I have read here about a Hawaiian airline also not being satisfied with the ATR but also don't know how credible that story is. How is this aircraft performing in Asia and Brazil and the Canary Islands?

A388

Island Air is not happy with their ATR 72-200s and is ordering Q400s as replacements.


But 20 year old ATR-72-200s and brand new ATR-72-600s have about as much in common as a 737-200 and the NG family. They may as well be different planes.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
Dominion301
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:32 pm

Sounds like it's time for a Q400 order. ;)
 
dassal
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:36 pm

Luckilly new plane buyers do not read a.netters opinions when planning their fleets....
 
A388
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:44 pm

RyanairGuru this is why I asked how other airlines are experiencing the ATR.

A388
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:08 am

If atr600 series was so bad you would hear complaints all over the world. I am not buying that story.
 
juliuswong
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:26 am

Here in Malaysia ATR 72-600s are well known to be maintenance hog and unreliable causing many flight cancellation or delay, all are currently grounded. Engineers hate them, coupled with state government not subsidizing -600 operation (Maswings) and overcapacity (Firefly), it is good to see them go. There differences between -500 and -600 are, in most cases, are negligible for short hops within Malaysia.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
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LamboAston
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:15 am

Hasn't been many problems with them in New Zealand. They usually only do flights between half an hour and an hour and a half though, with a few exceptions.
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guyanam
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:49 am

A388 wrote:
I agree with vfw614. These airlines have no other choice then the ATR or the Q400. I also don't completely buy it that only in our region these aircraft supposed to be performing bad and nowhere else. I have read here about a Hawaiian airline also not being satisfied with the ATR but also don't know how credible that story is. How is this aircraft performing in Asia and Brazil and the Canary Islands?

A388



Interesting that Hawaii, another tropical, marine and high humidity region has this problem. Maybe citing the Canary Island isn't relevant. Having said that the Q400 is too much aircraft to be the only carrier on LI routes. Not all LI routes can sustain a 68 seat plane.
 
guyanam
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:51 am

LimaFoxTango wrote:
bimjim wrote:
My personal opinion is that the ATRs were chosen to replace the Dash-8s purely for kick-back and commission purposes, like the Q400 such aircraft are not suitable for 15-minute hops all day. The same thing happened at LIAT and BahamasAir, so somebody in the region is getting nimmensely rich - along with the politicians they manage to include in their promotions.


I don't hear LIAT, Bahamasair, Air Antilles or Air Caraibes complaining....but I don't expect anything else better coming from you.



Actually LI did have maintenance problems in the beginning, but they seemed to be resolved now.
 
guyanam
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:52 am

juliuswong wrote:
Here in Malaysia ATR 72-600s are well known to be maintenance hog and unreliable causing many flight cancellation or delay,.



Another high humid region.
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:56 pm

juliuswong wrote:
Here in Malaysia ATR 72-600s are well known to be maintenance hog and unreliable causing many flight cancellation or delay, all are currently grounded. Engineers hate them, coupled with state government not subsidizing -600 operation (Maswings) and overcapacity (Firefly), it is good to see them go. There differences between -500 and -600 are, in most cases, are negligible for short hops within Malaysia.

Where are the official statements? Why is atr overselling BMD?
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:00 pm

guyanam wrote:
A388 wrote:
I agree with vfw614. These airlines have no other choice then the ATR or the Q400. I also don't completely buy it that only in our region these aircraft supposed to be performing bad and nowhere else. I have read here about a Hawaiian airline also not being satisfied with the ATR but also don't know how credible that story is. How is this aircraft performing in Asia and Brazil and the Canary Islands?

A388



Interesting that Hawaii, another tropical, marine and high humidity region has this problem. Maybe citing the Canary Island isn't relevant. Having said that the Q400 is too much aircraft to be the only carrier on LI routes. Not all LI routes can sustain a 68 seat plane.

Island air hawai has the 200series. Of course this old bird will give you headaches. There is a thread about this topic.


Hawaiian has the New 600 series. No complaints so far.
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:03 pm

What about the Q400? Gear problems in the past? Is it more reliable?
 
MO11
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:29 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
Hawaiian has the New 600 series. No complaints so far.


Hawaiian has 13-year-old ATR42-500s.
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:38 pm

MO11 wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
Hawaiian has the New 600 series. No complaints so far.


Hawaiian has 13-year-old ATR42-500s.

Complaints? Do they have?
 
MO11
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:00 pm

I don't know. I think two are scheduled and one is an operational spare.
 
jupiter2
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:34 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
What about the Q400? Gear problems in the past? Is it more reliable?


Which were largely (not solely) due to the maintenance procedures of one particular operator. Resulting in that operator who had disposed of Q400's, ordering more and still operating them today.

Is it more reliable than ATR's ? I have no idea, but locally QF Link seem to love their Q400's, while Virgin Oz are getting rid of most of their ATR's, but that would be more because of a poor business model than any short comings with the aircraft itself.

Personally, I won't fly on them, too many engine problems for me and crews having added problems handling any sort of emergency in them. I'll find another way to get to my destination, but that's my personal choice.
 
fd122
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:30 pm

I heard from a senior/high ranking LIAT engineer/official that the ATRs have more corrosion on them compared to the Dash. He even said they are in maintenance more so than the older Dash that were in the fleet. All I know is I feel safer in the Dash than the ATR which LIAT now fly. And I've been enough on them to feel something is different compared to the Dash, Whatever that means.
 
juliuswong
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:36 am

embraer175e2 wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
Here in Malaysia ATR 72-600s are well known to be maintenance hog and unreliable causing many flight cancellation or delay, all are currently grounded. Engineers hate them, coupled with state government not subsidizing -600 operation (Maswings) and overcapacity (Firefly), it is good to see them go. There differences between -500 and -600 are, in most cases, are negligible for short hops within Malaysia.

Where are the official statements? Why is atr overselling BMD?

Whose official statement are you looking at? The airline customer? If it is the case, I don't think it is a good idea to bad mouth about your vendor/ supplier tbh.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
A388
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:12 am

I see a lot of the opinions on the ATR here are just that, personal opinions and not really what the airlines themselves have said. No matter what's the case, the ATR eventually will be the only turboprop. The Q400 seems to be a dying bread.

A388
 
thepinkmachine
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:52 am

I have only flown the -202 and the -500 and they were fine workhorses for regional flight. Reliable and efficient.

However, I have heard from my friends operating the -600s that they were generating lots of problems and that, in general, they are not ATR's masterpiece :)
"Tell my wife I am trawling Atlantis - and I still have my hands on the wheel…"
 
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77west
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:00 am

LamboAston wrote:
Hasn't been many problems with them in New Zealand. They usually only do flights between half an hour and an hour and a half though, with a few exceptions.


I have done many, many ATR72 flights in NZ, and only once that I can remember did we end up swapping planes due to a tech issue. A -500 broke and we ended up on MVB, a -600. I think the longest flights are Hamilton-Christchurch and possibly Invercargill-Wellington. About 2hr. Most other flights are shorter as you said.
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LamboAston
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:13 am

77west wrote:
LamboAston wrote:
Hasn't been many problems with them in New Zealand. They usually only do flights between half an hour and an hour and a half though, with a few exceptions.


I have done many, many ATR72 flights in NZ, and only once that I can remember did we end up swapping planes due to a tech issue. A -500 broke and we ended up on MVB, a -600. I think the longest flights are Hamilton-Christchurch and possibly Invercargill-Wellington. About 2hr. Most other flights are shorter as you said.

And I have never had any problems myself.
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coolian2
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:50 am

My first two modern turboprop flights were within the last month.

ATR 72-600? Felt like a smaller A320.
Q300? Felt like I was clinging to a chandelier in an earthquake while someone had white noise playing too loud.
Q300/ATR72-600/737-200/-300/-400/-700/-800/A320/767-200/-300/757-200/777-300ER/
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:05 am

coolian2 wrote:
My first two modern turboprop flights were within the last month.

ATR 72-600? Felt like a smaller A320.
Q300? Felt like I was clinging to a chandelier in an earthquake while someone had white noise playing too loud.

I feel like the turboprop experience is very dependent on where you sit. In Air NZ's Q300s, I like row 12 (last row on the right, second last on the left) - sound is not too bad, but you're pretty much last off (not that it matters too much when there's only 50 people). Row 1 isn't too bad, but as you move back you do get a fair whack of noise. I haven't got myself near the props on an ATR72 yet, so not sure what the ride is like there, but its fairly innocuous in the last few rows or the front couple of rows.

V/F
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coolian2
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:07 am

VirginFlyer wrote:
coolian2 wrote:
My first two modern turboprop flights were within the last month.

ATR 72-600? Felt like a smaller A320.
Q300? Felt like I was clinging to a chandelier in an earthquake while someone had white noise playing too loud.

I feel like the turboprop experience is very dependent on where you sit. In Air NZ's Q300s, I like row 12 (last row on the right, second last on the left) - sound is not too bad, but you're pretty much last off (not that it matters too much when there's only 50 people). Row 1 isn't too bad, but as you move back you do get a fair whack of noise. I haven't got myself near the props on an ATR72 yet, so not sure what the ride is like there, but its fairly innocuous in the last few rows or the front couple of rows.

V/F

I was exit row on the Q300 on an out and back (separate sides so I needed to remember which side to throw the door if I had to) and approximately the same spot compared to the props on the ATR. It just shook less and was more aircon and not prop noise.
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baje427
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:19 pm

coolian2 wrote:
My first two modern turboprop flights were within the last month.

ATR 72-600? Felt like a smaller A320.
Q300? Felt like I was clinging to a chandelier in an earthquake while someone had white noise playing too loud.


Your experience could also be a result of the AVNS system being down on the Q300. I have traveled on both the ATR600 and Q300 when they were new. I found the ATR was quieter on takeoff but I found the Q300 quieter in the cruise and more stable during turbulence.
 
coolian2
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:02 pm

baje427 wrote:
coolian2 wrote:
My first two modern turboprop flights were within the last month.

ATR 72-600? Felt like a smaller A320.
Q300? Felt like I was clinging to a chandelier in an earthquake while someone had white noise playing too loud.


Your experience could also be a result of the AVNS system being down on the Q300. I have traveled on both the ATR600 and Q300 when they were new. I found the ATR was quieter on takeoff but I found the Q300 quieter in the cruise and more stable during turbulence.


Had to have been. I flew the ATR into Wellington on a gusty night, and the Q300 into New Plymouth/Auckland on a very benign day.
Q300/ATR72-600/737-200/-300/-400/-700/-800/A320/767-200/-300/757-200/777-300ER/
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32andBelow
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:17 pm

Sounds like the route should be done with a boat not a plane.
 
NAX737MAX
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:53 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Sounds like the route should be done with a boat not a plane.


There are several daily departures done between the islands with fast ferries, but speaking from experience it is an unpleasant, uncomfortable, 3-4 hour ride in rough seas. Not many will be willing to give up the air-bridge to be left with the ferry as their only option.
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:33 am

32andBelow wrote:
Sounds like the route should be done with a boat not a plane.


Been there. Done that. The people of Tobago deserve better. With an average GDP of $22,000 USD, being relegated to an in-effective government 'proposal', we are sick and tired of it. We can't afford the 'subsidy',but certainly can't afford the delay. So, all in all - a Caribbean travesty. Regardless of the issue, a non-working, brand-new ATR is, as they say, 'adding insult to injury'...
 
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zeke
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:18 am

Worldwide the dispatch reliability of the ATR fleet is over 99.7%, considering the number of cycles these airframes fly that is impressive. Many would do a dozen cycles a day.

I would have fully expected with the -600 there to be initial issues as that was a major modification. As that is now at a level of maturity I would expect operators would be seeing improved reliability and reduced costs from that modification.

If particular operators are having issues, I would suggest it would be very easy to identify why that is the case. The OEMs are normally very helpful in these cases more than willing to supply factory ground crew and/or pilots to improve things. But that takes an operator willing to ask and pay for the help.
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embraer175e2
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:06 am

juliuswong wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
Here in Malaysia ATR 72-600s are well known to be maintenance hog and unreliable causing many flight cancellation or delay, all are currently grounded. Engineers hate them, coupled with state government not subsidizing -600 operation (Maswings) and overcapacity (Firefly), it is good to see them go. There differences between -500 and -600 are, in most cases, are negligible for short hops within Malaysia.

Where are the official statements? Why is atr overselling BMD?

Whose official statement are you looking at? The airline customer? If it is the case, I don't think it is a good idea to bad mouth about your vendor/ supplier tbh.

Very personal Julies. If the Atr was so bad everybody would be switching back to BMD.
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:08 am

coolian2 wrote:
My first two modern turboprop flights were within the last month.

ATR 72-600? Felt like a smaller A320.
Q300? Felt like I was clinging to a chandelier in an earthquake while someone had white noise playing too loud.

Lol.
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:16 am

embraer175e2 wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
Where are the official statements? Why is atr overselling BMD?

Whose official statement are you looking at? The airline customer? If it is the case, I don't think it is a good idea to bad mouth about your vendor/ supplier tbh.

Very personal Julies. If the Atr was so bad everybody would be switching back to BMD.

Sorry if it sounds personal, it was done unintentionally. I was asking on the basis which statement are you looking at, I will find out if there is any directive from the airline mgt itself to Engineering dept to ground the fleet. Hopefully they can grab hold of one for us. Again, apology if it sounds personal. BMD doesn't sell well in South East Asia mainly due to lack of maintenance support around this region. ATR has a support centre in Singapore that can train crews, fix and supply parts if any need arise. BMD thus far has yet to do one near this region.
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