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LimaFoxTango
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:44 pm

zeke wrote:
They should be swapping engines over from side to side and keep one running in hotel mode. Biggest issue with engines is the starts, keep One running and swapping them will reduce the engine cycles.



How old are you 12? That comment shows how uninformed you are. You don't just swap engines like you swap tires on a car. Hotel mode, however useful does have its own challenges. For example the aircraft should be ideally parked with the wind at the 10 o'clock position to blow exhaust away from the fuselage. Very few parking spots are aligned that way round these parts. Secondly the aft service door must be closed during Hotel mode operation which means baggage cannot be loaded/offloaded from the aft hold. Refueling is also prohibited. Some airports also prohibit one engine running during passenger boarding/disembarkation. Hotel mode not exempt.
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
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zeke
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:41 pm

LimaFoxTango wrote:
How old are you 12? That comment shows how uninformed you are. You don't just swap engines like you swap tires on a car.


Actually they are often swapped more often that you think, from small engines on a piston aircraft to large engines on an airliner, it was reasonably common for example to move 767 engines to the inner positions on the 744. Many aircraft and engines these days are not owned, they are either leased or power by the hour. A lot of ATRs also have had engine upgrades, i.e. many have been upgraded from PW127F to PW127M.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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novarupta
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:29 pm

LimaFoxTango wrote:
zeke wrote:
They should be swapping engines over from side to side and keep one running in hotel mode. Biggest issue with engines is the starts, keep One running and swapping them will reduce the engine cycles.



How old are you 12? That comment shows how uninformed you are. You don't just swap engines like you swap tires on a car. Hotel mode, however useful does have its own challenges. For example the aircraft should be ideally parked with the wind at the 10 o'clock position to blow exhaust away from the fuselage. Very few parking spots are aligned that way round these parts. Secondly the aft service door must be closed during Hotel mode operation which means baggage cannot be loaded/offloaded from the aft hold. Refueling is also prohibited. Some airports also prohibit one engine running during passenger boarding/disembarkation. Hotel mode not exempt.


LIAT does what Zeke is saying - they swap the engines between the -42s and -72s at fairly frequent intervals, the cycle normally beginning with the #2 (H-mode) motor being moved from a -72 to the #1 position on the -42.
 
embraer175e2
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:27 pm

zeke wrote:
They should be swapping engines over from side to side and keep one running in hotel mode. Biggest issue with engines is the starts, keep One running and swapping them will reduce the engine cycles.


Good one! Very time consuming and expensive tough.
 
diverted
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:30 pm

LimaFoxTango wrote:
zeke wrote:
They should be swapping engines over from side to side and keep one running in hotel mode. Biggest issue with engines is the starts, keep One running and swapping them will reduce the engine cycles.



How old are you 12? That comment shows how uninformed you are. You don't just swap engines like you swap tires on a car. Hotel mode, however useful does have its own challenges. For example the aircraft should be ideally parked with the wind at the 10 o'clock position to blow exhaust away from the fuselage. Very few parking spots are aligned that way round these parts. Secondly the aft service door must be closed during Hotel mode operation which means baggage cannot be loaded/offloaded from the aft hold. Refueling is also prohibited. Some airports also prohibit one engine running during passenger boarding/disembarkation. Hotel mode not exempt.


You're correct about the wind... I can't remember exactly but there's a max tailwind component you can operate in hotel mode for, or you run into nacelle overheat issues.

In terms of fuelling and boarding/deplaning, I'm going to disagree with you. I've checked through our FOM, and it specifically states that in hotel mode the engine is considered an APU and thus, not a hot refuel. However, some fuellers may have an issue with fuelling while in hotel mode, but there's no restrictions preventing fuelling. Same with the aft service door. Nothing preventing you from boarding/deplaning pax or accessing cargo while in hotel mode.
 
LimaFoxTango
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:46 pm

diverted wrote:
LimaFoxTango wrote:
zeke wrote:
They should be swapping engines over from side to side and keep one running in hotel mode. Biggest issue with engines is the starts, keep One running and swapping them will reduce the engine cycles.



How old are you 12? That comment shows how uninformed you are. You don't just swap engines like you swap tires on a car. Hotel mode, however useful does have its own challenges. For example the aircraft should be ideally parked with the wind at the 10 o'clock position to blow exhaust away from the fuselage. Very few parking spots are aligned that way round these parts. Secondly the aft service door must be closed during Hotel mode operation which means baggage cannot be loaded/offloaded from the aft hold. Refueling is also prohibited. Some airports also prohibit one engine running during passenger boarding/disembarkation. Hotel mode not exempt.


You're correct about the wind... I can't remember exactly but there's a max tailwind component you can operate in hotel mode for, or you run into nacelle overheat issues.

In terms of fuelling and boarding/deplaning, I'm going to disagree with you. I've checked through our FOM, and it specifically states that in hotel mode the engine is considered an APU and thus, not a hot refuel. However, some fuellers may have an issue with fuelling while in hotel mode, but there's no restrictions preventing fuelling. Same with the aft service door. Nothing preventing you from boarding/deplaning pax or accessing cargo while in hotel mode.


Your FOM can say what it wants. If the regulators or airport authority prohibits its practice you can't do it. ATR's manual clearly states Hotel mode should not be used during refueling and while the aft service door is open. The refuel port for the -72 is at the right aft gear fairing which is right below the exhaust and only a mad man would stand under there to hook up. The -42 on the other hand is under the right wing. Who would stand next to a prop that could spin at any moment?
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
diverted
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:06 pm

LimaFoxTango wrote:
diverted wrote:
LimaFoxTango wrote:


How old are you 12? That comment shows how uninformed you are. You don't just swap engines like you swap tires on a car. Hotel mode, however useful does have its own challenges. For example the aircraft should be ideally parked with the wind at the 10 o'clock position to blow exhaust away from the fuselage. Very few parking spots are aligned that way round these parts. Secondly the aft service door must be closed during Hotel mode operation which means baggage cannot be loaded/offloaded from the aft hold. Refueling is also prohibited. Some airports also prohibit one engine running during passenger boarding/disembarkation. Hotel mode not exempt.


You're correct about the wind... I can't remember exactly but there's a max tailwind component you can operate in hotel mode for, or you run into nacelle overheat issues.

In terms of fuelling and boarding/deplaning, I'm going to disagree with you. I've checked through our FOM, and it specifically states that in hotel mode the engine is considered an APU and thus, not a hot refuel. However, some fuellers may have an issue with fuelling while in hotel mode, but there's no restrictions preventing fuelling. Same with the aft service door. Nothing preventing you from boarding/deplaning pax or accessing cargo while in hotel mode.


Your FOM can say what it wants. If the regulators or airport authority prohibits its practice you can't do it. ATR's manual clearly states Hotel mode should not be used during refueling and while the aft service door is open. The refuel port for the -72 is at the right aft gear fairing which is right below the exhaust and only a mad man would stand under there to hook up. The -42 on the other hand is under the right wing. Who would stand next to a prop that could spin at any moment?


Just making a counterpoint to your catch all earlier post. No restrictions anywhere we fly on either of those practices, and I have definitely boarded an ATR in hotel mode while fuelling.

Cheers
 
guyanam
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:45 pm

gunnerman wrote:
And why is a small airline like BW operating two fleet types (was three during the Gatwick operation). In a rational world, you'd think that BW would axe the ATRs and operate only the 737-800s for North America, South America and perhaps Kingston, and collaborate with LIAT on regional routes by codesharing and providing feed at POS. For heavens sakes, why are these two bankrupt airlines competing on routes between POS and BGI, GND and SVD.



The POS TAB route is too demanding a route and too political to allow a "foreign" carrier like LIAT to be the sole operator. Why will an airline based in BGI/ANU prioritize the level of service that the POS TAB service warrants and what leverage will T&T have over this? This route is a utility in the same way as any urban mass transit system is, and LI isn't geared to offer this.

A separate stand alone carrier for the Tobago route was tried and it failed. Its more cost effective to integrate its operations into a larger carrier to allow economies of scale. Clearly the gov't of T&T will have to own at least 2 aircraft types. So BW is what they have and they just need to figure out how to make it work. Running two separate airline creates overlap and levels of duplication and therefore higher costs.

The notion that LI be allowed to remain a monopoly on the POS GND and SLU routes is hilarious. Tell that to passengers who rate LI as a one star airline. Most who use that route rate BW as considerably more reliable.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:51 pm

It's not hilarious for the long-suffering Caribbean taxpayer to keep subsidising two badly-run airlines. There has to be a better way of doing things.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:18 am

gunnerman wrote:
It's not hilarious for the long-suffering Caribbean taxpayer to keep subsidising two badly-run airlines. There has to be a better way of doing things.

Invite Conviasa, they pay for everything, Caribbean nations just have to vote for Venezuela and Maduro at the OAS and the UN.
 
guyanam
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:53 am

gunnerman wrote:
It's not hilarious for the long-suffering Caribbean taxpayer to keep subsidising two badly-run airlines. There has to be a better way of doing things.

So we can shut them down and return to the schooner days.

The problem isn't the airlines. Its the people who own them. I will also add that the privately run airlines were even worse.
 
guyanam
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:54 am

[quote="MalevTU134]
Invite Conviasa, they pay for everything, Caribbean nations just have to vote for Venezuela and Maduro at the OAS and the UN.[/quote]


This is quite hilarious as I know its a joke :D .
 
gunnerman
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:27 am

guyanam wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
It's not hilarious for the long-suffering Caribbean taxpayer to keep subsidising two badly-run airlines. There has to be a better way of doing things.

So we can shut them down and return to the schooner days.

Don't be ridiculous.

The problem isn't the airlines. Its the people who own them. I will also add that the privately run airlines were even worse.

Of course it's the people who own them or, to be exact, the governments. It's these governments which fail to appoint good managers to run the airlines, which add a bunch of taxes and charges to make the ticket prices high.
 
Brickell305
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:37 am

gunnerman wrote:
It's not hilarious for the long-suffering Caribbean taxpayer to keep subsidising two badly-run airlines. There has to be a better way of doing things.


What do you suggest? Caribbean aviation history is filled with non-Caribbean people who have observed the way in which things are done from the outside, felt that they had a better way of doing things, ignored regional history and advice from locals and subsequently lost their shirts when the locals who are most aware of their own situation were proved to be right time and time again.

Merging BW and LI doesn't work for either entity as per the reasons that guyanam has already highlighted. LI has neither the resources or desire to provide the level of service ex. POS that would be required if they were to run the hypothetical merged entity. CAL's operations would be entirely too POS-centric for the rest of the region if they were to be the lead of a merged carrier. As to the airlines currently competing between POS to various destinations; with the exception of GND and SLU, there simply isn't much competition at all. CAL flies to SVD only twice a week. LIAT currently flies POS-SVD three times a day and still maintains a virtual monopoly on the route. POS-BGI is dominated by CAL and very few use LIAT for that as CAL provides non-stop service while LIAT provides only one-stop service between the islands. Further afield, CAL only provides service to ANU and SXM twice a week each. LIAT can route people to those islands daily and at various times of day and as such carries the bulk of traffic to those destinations as well. The two main reasons that CAL serves these places are:

1. LIAT (during its peak summer season) currently only has five departures ex POS per day.That is too little to satisfy the full scope of demand ex POS. As such, CAL provides service to ensure that it is sufficient to match the POS demand.
2. Some of the regional routes; mainly GND, BGI, SVD are flown by CAL to feed its international network ex POS.
 
guyanam
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:50 pm

gunnerman wrote:
[Of course it's the people who own them or, to be exact, the governments. It's these governments which fail to appoint good managers to run the airlines, which add a bunch of taxes and charges to make the ticket prices high.



And yet Redjet, Caribbean Star, Insel, etc., turned out to be no better. The privately owned carriers have al the defects of the state owned entities, except of curse private investors aren't going to sustain losses indefinitely. The only private airlines which "appear" to work are the really small ones like Inter Caribbean.
 
guyanam
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:33 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
It's not hilarious for the long-suffering Caribbean taxpayer to keep subsidising two badly-run airlines. There has to be a better way of doing things.


What do you suggest? Caribbean aviation history is filled with non-Caribbean people.



Glad you discussed this. We had Caribbean Star, which offered service as inefficient as that offered by LIAT, which is why LIAT survived. Their losses also dwarfed that of LI, and in the end its American owner walked away from that airline.

We had Redjet owned by an Irish man. Even before his first jet took off the bulk of us here on this forum forecasted its demise. How can one make money in a high cost, low volume region flying one MD80 daily on the BGI POS, just over 200 miles. The KIN BGI/POS route is heavily stacked towards business travel outside of the periods when students travel, so BW would have maintained its share. This on a route which cannot support more than daily service. Its only route that might have worked was the GEO BGI, and even that isn't a large enough market to justify an MD80, given that Redjet didn't offer connections to points beyond BGI.

So the non Caribbean management don't seem to have done any better, even when they ran airlines which were privately owned, so minimally impacted by the politicians.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:46 pm

Private airlines have failed, I can think of many off the top of my head. But without going to the trouble of digging out the facts, my recollection is that the Caribbean governments were often obstructive in granting them route licences.

And as for LIAT versus Caribbean Star: a major reason why LIAT survived is that it was continuously subsidised by its shareholder governments. There is no such thing as a level playing field in this region.
 
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par13del
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:22 pm

gunnerman wrote:
Private airlines have failed, I can think of many off the top of my head. But without going to the trouble of digging out the facts, my recollection is that the Caribbean governments were often obstructive in granting them route licences.

And as for LIAT versus Caribbean Star: a major reason why LIAT survived is that it was continuously subsidised by its shareholder governments. There is no such thing as a level playing field in this region.

As mentioned, the owners of LIAT were multiple countries, so it is fair to say that a part of their contribution would be access to each nation member.
Now a private airline is going to have to negotiate access with multiple countries, how unfair is that?
 
Brickell305
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:41 pm

par13del wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
Private airlines have failed, I can think of many off the top of my head. But without going to the trouble of digging out the facts, my recollection is that the Caribbean governments were often obstructive in granting them route licences.

And as for LIAT versus Caribbean Star: a major reason why LIAT survived is that it was continuously subsidised by its shareholder governments. There is no such thing as a level playing field in this region.

As mentioned, the owners of LIAT were multiple countries, so it is fair to say that a part of their contribution would be access to each nation member.
Now a private airline is going to have to negotiate access with multiple countries, how unfair is that?


That is simply untrue. An airline based in a Caricom country has the right to fly to other Caricom countries subject to the approval of that country's civil aviation authority. LIAT faces that the same as any other carrier would. In fact, in 2013 when LIAT began its re-fleeting process, it faced delays flying the ATRs into Trinidad because their use by LIAT had yet to be approved by the TTCAA.
 
guyanam
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:02 am

gunnerman wrote:
Private airlines have failed, I can think of many off the top of my head. But without going to the trouble of digging out the facts, my recollection is that the Caribbean governments were often obstructive in granting them route licences.

And as for LIAT versus Caribbean Star: a major reason why LIAT survived is that it was continuously subsidised by its shareholder governments. There is no such thing as a level playing field in this region.


Insel didn't have anyone blocking them and yet now they survive as a virtual state owned airline.

BWIA and JM failed miserably as privately owned carriers, even though Butch Stewart got every thing he wanted and gained access to markets that the previously state owned JM didn't get. Yet it ran up debts as large as a small nation and then had to be rescued by the Jamaican gov't which panicked at the prospects of an airline bringing in 40% of the tourists and accounting for 60% of the passengers suddenly collapsing.

It took Fly Jamaica ONE YEAR to gain access to the JFK route from KIN. Red jet gained access to various routes in the Caribbean within a few months, this despite the fact that it lacked its own maintenance facilities and was based, in BGI, a Cat 2 rated jurisdiction.

If Fly Jamaica fails should they blame the US gov't for taking a year to approve their flights from a Cat 1 country? Yes, they had a plane sitting down on the ground for ONE year, not earning a cent. But then this is what one can expect a start up carrier to endure.

Redjet was so arrogant that they began to sell seats into POS even before they received approval. Can BW start selling seats to HAV before they receive approval? I think not. They will have to wait until the Cuban gov't allows them access.

So what is this babble about Redjet failing because it was blocked. It failed because it embarked on a ludicrous venture of using MD80 jets to fly a route (BGI POS) which is just over 200 miles. This route being so thin that the plane couldn't operate more than daily, assuming that it received 100% market share.

It failed because its LCC strategy was unattractive to business travelers who account for a huge % of the year round travel between KIN and BGI/POS. Who wants the frustration of a Spirit Airlines type of operation when one needs to have a hassle free trip and one doesn't care about the fare?

It failed because it thought that running an MD80 from BGI to GND made sense.

It failed because it thought that running an MD80 on the ANU BGI route made sense.

It failed because he flew from BGI to UVF when every one who knows anything will suggest that 90% of those flying into St Lucia from BGI will use SLU, which is closer to where 70% of that island's population lives. But of course SLU isn't friendly to ageing MD80 planes with its short runway and tricky approach.

It failed because the Caribbean is a high cost place with low volumes of travelers. What works in Europe with its hundreds of millions of relatively affluent people doesn't work in a sub region with under 3 million mainly impoverished souls. And where the bulk of the travel is generated by tourists or by overseas based nationals residing mainly in North America.

Then the Irishman ran around screaming victimhood. He would NEVER have behaved like this in Ireland. Had the man used turbo prop planes he might have had grounds to complain, but running 30 year old jets, prone to mechanical break downs is not a way to succeed. Even many who welcomed competition to BW and LI fled in droves when his planes broke down, stranding many, and forcing them to be rescued by these same airlines.

Caribbean Star had all the route rights that it wanted from Caribbean gov'ts. It was the US gov't which limited access, forcing it to establish Caribbean Sun, to allow it access to the US Caribbean. So accommodating were the Caribbean gov'ts that Caribbean Star ran a flight against 100% of the routes that LI had out of BGI and ANU. Matching its schedule and slashing fares to unsustainable levels. Like US$75 R/T on the ANU SKB route Then it ran out of cash.

I fail to see what support that LIAT received that prevented Caribbean Star from being a success.

The bottom line is that privately owned airlines in the Caribbean are no more successful than the state owned airlines. Private investors will never toss money into a money pit as a government might, seeing its airlines as utilities (or employment agencies), and therefore more willing to sustain loss making operations.
 
guyanam
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:07 am

Brickell305 wrote:
That is simply untrue. An airline based in a Caricom country has the right to fly to other Caricom countries subject to the approval of that country's civil aviation authority. LIAT faces that the same as any other carrier would. In fact, in 2013 when LIAT began its re-fleeting process, it faced delays flying the ATRs into Trinidad because their use by LIAT had yet to be approved by the TTCAA.



And BW was blocked until recently from flying into SVD, or starting flights into BGI from GND and SLU, even as those governments wanted that service.

It appears to me as if Redjet and Caribbean Star didn't receive any less favorable treatment than do BW and LI.

I don't know why a start up airline like Redjet, which didn't even have its own maintenance facilities and was under the jurisdiction of a Cat 2 regulatory entity could have expected to just start up flights on day one.

That Irishman used jets more appropriate for service to the USA from BGI, than for use on intra Eastern Caribbean routes, so why didn't he blame the FAA and the USDOT his its demise?
 
Brickell305
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:59 am

Caribbean Airlines Limited’s (CAL) pilots through their union, the Trinidad and Tobago Pilots Association (TTALPA), have denied taking industrial action in their present situation. This was told to the Chairman and the Executive management team at a meeting over the weekend.

The pilots said they were acting not because of salaries and other payments, but out of "deep concern" for their safety and the safety of the travelling public, whose lives are placed in their hands every time they choose to fly with CAL.

The pilots pointed out to the company that after 14 "fire warnings and nine emergencies," they have lost confidence in the ATR aircraft they were given to fly, adding that it became very difficult for them to have trust in a manufacturer "who still has not found a conclusive cause to the fire warnings." They alleged that even after more than a dozen "engine fire warnings" the manufacturer had "only done its due diligence checks and had not seen it fit to go further to restore their client’s confidence and that of the pilots." Further TTALPA said considering the stress their members must endure in the face of their current working conditions, "and could not continue to face the travelling public with a straight face, when they know they have lost confidence in the equipment they have been given to fly," it was no wonder they were falling ill.

http://www.newsday.co.tt/businessday/0,246602.html



The ATR woes at BW continue...
 
A388
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:01 am

I keep saying it that I just don't all of these people things that are said to be linked to the aircraft alone. Sorry I just don't buy that, period. As someone already said in the beginning it probably is a combination of things. I just don't but it that Caribbean Airlines is the only airline in the world to have such huge problems with the ATR.

In this case an aircraft manufacturer never just leaves an airline with problems if it is solely linked to the aircraft and nothing more. No aircraft manufacturer does that or they will get a huge claim to pay. So this part of the above article also is false or based on nothing.

It's a pity Caribbean Airlines experiences this but I won't believe it's linked to the aircraft manufacturer alone. Sorry I just don't.

A388
 
guyanam
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:09 pm

A388 wrote:
I keep saying it that I just don't all of these people things that are said to be linked to the aircraft alone. ..

A388



Its already been pointed out that BWs operations are quite unique with high frequency short distance operations which can be expected to create some level of stress. Not even LI's operations are comparable.

The question you ought to ask yourself is why ATR has yet to find the answer to this issue. If it is indeed the fault of BW then ATRs exhaustive analysis of BWs maintenance should have uncovered this by now.

Bottom line is I don't think that ATR is anymore aware of the reason for the problem than BW is.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:44 pm

I think the quote misses the juicy part of the article:

"...These suggestions include all five ATR aircraft being brought back to factory specification as was done for the TTA plane. However, only three of the planes, TTA, TTC and TTE will be flown at this time. TTA has been brought back to specifications, but there is one more engine to been changed. TTC and TTE have not shown any warnings to date.
TTD and TTB would be the first planes to be tackled and accordingly will be withdrawn from service until completion of the process. Following this, the others will be addressed. CAL anticipates that each plane would take two weeks to complete. The planes will all be placed on a rigorous inspection and maintenance programme which has already begun.
An independent party will be brought in to check all five ATRs including the current maintenance policies and procedures. If the aircraft are re-certified safe by the independent party, TTALPA says it will accept them as airworthy until they can be replaced. "
 
Brickell305
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:55 pm

guyanam wrote:
A388 wrote:
I keep saying it that I just don't all of these people things that are said to be linked to the aircraft alone. ..

A388



Its already been pointed out that BWs operations are quite unique with high frequency short distance operations which can be expected to create some level of stress. Not even LI's operations are comparable.

The question you ought to ask yourself is why ATR has yet to find the answer to this issue. If it is indeed the fault of BW then ATRs exhaustive analysis of BWs maintenance should have uncovered this by now.

Bottom line is I don't think that ATR is anymore aware of the reason for the problem than BW is.

This appears to be the question that the pilots' union is asking as well.
 
airjonathan1
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:14 pm

Did Dutch Antilles Express experience any trouble flying ATRs between the ABC islands?
 
guyanam
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Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:00 pm

airjonathan1 wrote:
Did Dutch Antilles Express experience any trouble flying ATRs between the ABC islands?



Dutch Antilles didn't have the high density operations that BW has on its POS TAB route. Insel now runs around 4-5 daily to AUA and BON.

This TAB route handles over 1 million passengers annually. Because access to Trinidad is vital for Tobago the route runs like a mass transit system instead of like a normal airline route. This is about people leaving TAB to fly to a 9AM meeting in POS needing to be back in TAB in time to pick up the kids from school. Or people heading for doctor's appointments. or people literally commuting to work.

It seems to me that too much is expected of this route and that T&T should increase ferry service between the two islands. Right now they have two ferries which can transport hundreds, but it appears as if each sail only one round trip daily. Given that its a 3-4 hour trip I think higher frequencies should be possible, at least at peak periods.

This will mean only more urgent travel will be done by air and then fares charged will be more reasonable, reducing losses, and allowing for an additional plane, if necessary. But instead we have 68 seaters doing what in most places will be handled by some form of mass transit equipment. 4 to 5 planes running up to 25 flights daily to TAB and an additional 6 to neighboring islands.
 
A388
Posts: 8004
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:06 pm

I didn't read the article as I thought the quote mentioned was the entire article, but a crucial part was (conveniently) left out by Brickell305 and that's the quote that seahawk mentions about bringing all the ATR's back to specs and having an independent company do the inspections and monitor them. Now why was this part left out in the quote? This is why I constantly get the feeling that not everything is mentioned about this whole problem. Now I see the article has more information but for some reason ATR is constantly being given a bad name here. Why?


A388
 
guyanam
Posts: 3076
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:16 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
This appears to be the question that the pilots' union is asking as well.



BW was the first Caribbean carrier to acquire this new version of the ATRs and so ATR stationed ongoing technical support in TAB. I guess to work out any bugs before approaching carriers like UP and LI which also had ageing Dash 8 fleets.

After this "false" engine fire indicator became a problem ATR had technicians there to see what the problem is. Earlier this year ATR at its expense leased an ATR to replace one of the ATR planes that seemed to have been giving the most trouble.

Apparently this indicator light still remains a problem, so I can conclude that ATR is no more aware as to why this problem exists. I would think that if there was a maintenance issue by BW then this would have been uncovered by ATR as they on numerous occasions, have been forced to analyze the problem.

This is why the pilots are frustrated as there were 2 incidents recently when they had to land planes because of false indications of engine fire.

Caribbean Airlines and their predecessor BWIA have a reputation for extreme safety protocols and I can bet that the pilots want to ensure that this remains. There have been times when BW (both of them) have grounded flights in adverse weather conditions, while other carriers (which I will not name) flew through.

In the interim BWs schedule is undergoing havoc at a busy time of the year as planes destined to JFK depart late to allow additional flights to TAB to replace the 2 ATRs which are out of service.

TABs economy is based on DOMESTIC tourism moreso than international tourism, and so TAB authorities are understandably frustrated by ongoing delays in flights to TAB and demand loudly that their needs be attended to. NY based Trinis and Guyanese don't vote in T&T elections whereas Tobagonians do, so they get priority.
 
guyanam
Posts: 3076
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:20 pm

A388 wrote:
I. Now why was this part left out in the quote?

A388



Yes Caribbean Airlines bribing people on airliner.net to hide the problem. :D

The fact that an INDEPENDENT party and not ATR will be relied upon to verify safety will in fact indicate that BW (both management and pilots) have lost confidence in ATRs ability to do so. I don't think that one can argue that ATR hasn't tried, but they don't seem able to develop a solution that solves the problem.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1094
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:00 pm

A388 wrote:
I didn't read the article as I thought the quote mentioned was the entire article, but a crucial part was (conveniently) left out by Brickell305 and that's the quote that seahawk mentions about bringing all the ATR's back to specs and having an independent company do the inspections and monitor them. Now why was this part left out in the quote? This is why I constantly get the feeling that not everything is mentioned about this whole problem. Now I see the article has more information but for some reason ATR is constantly being given a bad name here. Why?


A388


I posted the first two paragraphs of the article because I didn't think it was the norm to post the entire article on here. I've never seen anyone do it. If I were trying to hide something, why would I post the link that leads to the entire story? And what from the rest of the article do you feel makes the case that ATR may not be at fault?
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1094
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:12 pm

guyanam wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
This appears to be the question that the pilots' union is asking as well.



BW was the first Caribbean carrier to acquire this new version of the ATRs and so ATR stationed ongoing technical support in TAB. I guess to work out any bugs before approaching carriers like UP and LI which also had ageing Dash 8 fleets.

After this "false" engine fire indicator became a problem ATR had technicians there to see what the problem is. Earlier this year ATR at its expense leased an ATR to replace one of the ATR planes that seemed to have been giving the most trouble.

Apparently this indicator light still remains a problem, so I can conclude that ATR is no more aware as to why this problem exists. I would think that if there was a maintenance issue by BW then this would have been uncovered by ATR as they on numerous occasions, have been forced to analyze the problem.

This is why the pilots are frustrated as there were 2 incidents recently when they had to land planes because of false indications of engine fire.

Caribbean Airlines and their predecessor BWIA have a reputation for extreme safety protocols and I can bet that the pilots want to ensure that this remains. There have been times when BW (both of them) have grounded flights in adverse weather conditions, while other carriers (which I will not name) flew through.

In the interim BWs schedule is undergoing havoc at a busy time of the year as planes destined to JFK depart late to allow additional flights to TAB to replace the 2 ATRs which are out of service.

TABs economy is based on DOMESTIC tourism moreso than international tourism, and so TAB authorities are understandably frustrated by ongoing delays in flights to TAB and demand loudly that their needs be attended to. NY based Trinis and Guyanese don't vote in T&T elections whereas Tobagonians do, so they get priority.


BW is known for both safety and a strong maintenance program. If we include old BW, this also stands. old and current BW have operated various fleet types during their history and this is the first time pilots have ever refused to fly a particular aircraft out of concern for safety. Please correct me if I am wrong but I do believe it is also the first time a manufacturer has had to station an engineer long term in Trinidad.
 
Wayfarer515
Posts: 810
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:56 pm

Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:06 pm

A388 wrote:
I see a lot of the opinions on the ATR here are just that, personal opinions and not really what the airlines themselves have said. No matter what's the case, the ATR eventually will be the only turboprop. The Q400 seems to be a dying bread.

A388

Wrong, the IL-114 is going back to production, and from the Uzbekistan experience it proved to be a very efficient and reliable aircraft.
 
guyanam
Posts: 3076
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:42 am

Brickell305 wrote:
[. Please correct me if I am wrong but I do believe it is also the first time a manufacturer has had to station an engineer long term in Trinidad.



To my knowledge you are correct. This is why if BW's maintenance was at fault ATR should have been able to rectify the problem. My guess is that they are just as perplexed as is BW. Because if there was some fault in BWs maintenance procedures ATR had ample time to discover this and have BW implement new procedures.
 
guyanam
Posts: 3076
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:50 am

Wayfarer515 wrote:
A388 wrote:
I see a lot of the opinions on the ATR here are just that, personal opinions and not really what the airlines themselves have said. No matter what's the case, the ATR eventually will be the only turboprop. The Q400 seems to be a dying bread.

A388

Wrong, the IL-114 is going back to production, and from the Uzbekistan experience it proved to be a very efficient and reliable aircraft.



These aren't personal opinions. These are from people (BW management and personnel) who have been intimately involved with the ATRs since they began service with BW. These are people who have also observed that ATR seems as unable to figure out the problem as BW has been. Either this or those ATR technicians have been having a vacation in T&T and I suspect this isn't the case.
 
Wayfarer515
Posts: 810
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:56 pm

Re: Caribbean airlines claiming the 600series ATR is unreliable

Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:13 am

guyanam wrote:
Wayfarer515 wrote:
A388 wrote:
I see a lot of the opinions on the ATR here are just that, personal opinions and not really what the airlines themselves have said. No matter what's the case, the ATR eventually will be the only turboprop. The Q400 seems to be a dying bread.

A388

Wrong, the IL-114 is going back to production, and from the Uzbekistan experience it proved to be a very efficient and reliable aircraft.



These aren't personal opinions. These are from people (BW management and personnel) who have been intimately involved with the ATRs since they began service with BW. These are people who have also observed that ATR seems as unable to figure out the problem as BW has been. Either this or those ATR technicians have been having a vacation in T&T and I suspect this isn't the case.


Sorry man, I misunderstood you were saying that the ATR would be the only turboprop remaining in the foreseeable future in general, and not specifically talking about BW. My apologies.

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