Lion Air to order 737 MAX 10

KarelXWB · Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:23 pm

Lion Air confirmed the carrier will become one of the 737 MAX 10 launch customers at the upcoming Paris air show.

Indonesian budget carrier Lion Air may be an inaugural customer for a new Boeing Co (BA.N) plane that will become the largest member of its 737 medium-haul jet family, expected to be launched at the Paris Airshow, three people familiar with the plans said.

Lion Air will be a launch customer for the 737 MAX 10, Lion Air Group President Director Edward Sirait confirmed to Reuters. He did not immediately provide the number of planes it has ordered.

Lion Air would convert several smaller aircraft (MAX 8/9) to the largest model.

The order for the new 737 MAX 10 model may, however, include some aircraft originally ordered in a smaller size and upgraded to the proposed new 190-230-seat model, two of them said.

Source
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-airli ... SKBN18W2TR

KFLLCFII · Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:26 pm

Better buy some extra.

MrHMSH · Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:35 pm

Not surprising, Indonesia is large, but almost all of the biggest cities there are fairly close, plus Singapore, Malaysia etc. It will serve them well.

deltadawg · Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:37 pm

Much needed news for the large MAX line to compete against the 321's steam. Out of curiosity, does anyone know what the takeoff performance is supposed to be on the MAX 10?

oldannyboy · Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:38 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
Better buy some extra.

Absolutely! :-)

Better have some back-up equipment...just in case you know! ;-)

Flyglobal · Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:49 pm

It is in the expectation of other Anetters: Once the 10 becomes available all new buys will be for 10 only.
The 9 will have a short life, but total sales 9+10 will be higher then they would have been with just the 9.

Flyglobal

KarelXWB · Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:49 pm

deltadawg wrote:
Much needed news for the large MAX line to compete against the 321's steam. Out of curiosity, does anyone know what the takeoff performance is supposed to be on the MAX 10?

I assume Boeing will share more technical details at the air show.

neutrino · Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:50 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
Better buy some extra.

Don't worry, it's always in their plans.

Actually, I've just booked a December flight on Thai Lion Air.
Hoping it will be a 739 although its seat pitch at 29" is 2 inches tighter than their 738.
Reason is I've never been on a -900 and its only a short 1 hour flight after all.
In time to come, I wish to ride on a Max10 as well now that the possibility of the biggest 737 being in the skies around my region is very high.

FriscoHeavy · Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:21 pm

Great News. I can't wait to find out who the other launch customers are.

ikolkyo · Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:49 pm

Looks like the MAX 10 is a sealed deal, wonder who else is in line.

Spiderguy252 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:57 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Looks like the MAX 10 is a sealed deal, wonder who else is in line.

Jet Airways might be another customer at Paris, according to rumours.

dc10lover · Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:50 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Looks like the MAX 10 is a sealed deal, wonder who else is in line.

Southwest Airlines. ☺

PlanesNTrains · Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:06 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Looks like the MAX 10 is a sealed deal, wonder who else is in line.

Well, it won't be UA. According to some on here they are in the bag for the A321.

However, it'd be interesting to see if AS might take some or if they'd prefer to wait and see how the A321 works for them. Might be too soon for any new orders.

ikolkyo · Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:56 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Looks like the MAX 10 is a sealed deal, wonder who else is in line.

Well, it won't be UA. According to some on here they are in the bag for the A321.

However, it'd be interesting to see if AS might take some or if they'd prefer to wait and see how the A321 works for them. Might be too soon for any new orders.

Can't tell if you're being serious or not with the UA A321 thing. I think they are a perfect candidate for the aircraft (MAX 10)

cledaybuck · Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:40 pm

Flyglobal wrote:
It is in the expectation of other Anetters: Once the 10 becomes available all new buys will be for 10 only.
The 9 will have a short life, but total sales 9+10 will be higher then they would have been with just the 9.

Flyglobal

No. I expect the 8 to still be the most sold model (or do you mean no more 9's purchased?). The second part I agree with (9+10>9).

scbriml · Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:40 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
Great News. I can't wait to find out who the other launch customers are.

It would be great news if it was a new order, but it looks like a conversion from other versions of MAX. I suspect many -10 orders will be like this.

Slash787 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:46 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Jet Airways might be another customer at Paris, according to rumours.

It would be cool to see Jet buying some Max 10 even though they dint order a single Max 9. I hope they take the deliveries of the 787-9 soon.

BG777300ER · Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:47 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Looks like the MAX 10 is a sealed deal, wonder who else is in line.

Well, it won't be UA. According to some on here they are in the bag for the A321.

Haha, and that second sentence is enough proof for me to think UA is in line for the 737-10. I bet they covert a lot if not all of their -9s on order to -10.

Armodeen · Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:04 pm

Let's hope the tail skid works :lol:

PlanesNTrains · Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:02 am

scbriml wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
Great News. I can't wait to find out who the other launch customers are.

It would be great news if it was a new order, but it looks like a conversion from other versions of MAX. I suspect many -10 orders will be like this.

Did you get that from this statement: "The order for the new 737 MAX 10 model may, however, include some aircraft originally ordered in a smaller size and upgraded to the proposed new 190-230-seat model, two of them said."

aemoreira1981 · Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:58 am

This makes way too much sense. Wasn't Lion Air also the first customer to order the 739ER from Boeing?

767333ER · Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:54 am

It's good news for Boeing, but not surprising from Lion Air. The real test will to be if the 737-10 sells to an airline that isn't already a huge 737 operator or one that is strongly considering the A321 as well.

seahawk · Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:39 am

FriscoHeavy wrote:
Great News. I can't wait to find out who the other launch customers are.

Hopefully AS, SW, DL, UA and AA.

81819 · Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:36 am

I think you will find QF will be interested in this plane!

keesje · Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:10 am

travelhound wrote:
I think you will find QF will be interested in this plane!

Not sure but I believe Qantas didn't order MAX and did order a bunch of NEO's.

That might qualify Qantas an airline that "jumped ship" on the 737, although no one ever says so. Jetstar has a (young) fleet of 60 A320 series and there are 100NEO's on order for the group. It will probably take a photo of 6 Qantas NEO's at SYD gates to fight denial.

TRFLYER · Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:55 am

The word here at TUI is we are planning to order some likely after the Paris Air Show. Apparently, it is for 25-30 most heading to TUI UK.

jupiter2 · Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:12 pm

keesje wrote:
travelhound wrote:
I think you will find QF will be interested in this plane!

Not sure but I believe Qantas didn't order MAX and did order a bunch of NEO's.

That might qualify Qantas an airline that "jumped ship" on the 737, although no one ever says so. Jetstar has a (young) fleet of 60 A320 series and there are 100NEO's on order for the group. It will probably take a photo of 6 Qantas NEO's at SYD gates to fight denial.

Qantas ordered NEO's for the Jetstar group, they are yet to order a new narrow body type for mainline. In reality they have no need to rush into any order as their 737 fleet is relatively young and with fuel as is, cost effective to run.

mjoelnir · Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:16 pm

scbriml wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
Great News. I can't wait to find out who the other launch customers are.

It would be great news if it was a new order, but it looks like a conversion from other versions of MAX. I suspect many -10 orders will be like this.

I assume ordered 737-9 will be switched to 737-10.

mjoelnir · Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:20 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
scbriml wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
Great News. I can't wait to find out who the other launch customers are.

It would be great news if it was a new order, but it looks like a conversion from other versions of MAX. I suspect many -10 orders will be like this.

Did you get that from this statement: "The order for the new 737 MAX 10 model may, however, include some aircraft originally ordered in a smaller size and upgraded to the proposed new 190-230-seat model, two of them said."

As the whole statement including Lion Air becoming a launch customer is may, why should another may not be as important.

SWADawg · Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:07 pm

If Boeing can get larger engines under the wing with somewhat acceptable performance and range, then I could see WN order a few of these to fly in and out of LAS and West Coast to Hawaii flights in a high density configuration. What hurt the -9 and may hurt the -10 at WN was the lack of short field performance that would prevent WN from operating the Aircraft in and out of MDW. So, while WN may order a few -10's, I don't think you'll see them order large numbers of this model.

eamondzhang · Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:16 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
keesje wrote:
travelhound wrote:
I think you will find QF will be interested in this plane!

Not sure but I believe Qantas didn't order MAX and did order a bunch of NEO's.

That might qualify Qantas an airline that "jumped ship" on the 737, although no one ever says so. Jetstar has a (young) fleet of 60 A320 series and there are 100NEO's on order for the group. It will probably take a photo of 6 Qantas NEO's at SYD gates to fight denial.

Qantas ordered NEO's for the Jetstar group, they are yet to order a new narrow body type for mainline. In reality they have no need to rush into any order as their 737 fleet is relatively young and with fuel as is, cost effective to run.

Some of them yes, but the other batch is 2001-2004 build ones which aren't any younger, and they need to be replaced in about 5-10 years' time. Besides, it's strongly rumoured that some of the 45 A321neo that Qantas converted will go to Qantas mainline; Jetstar simply doesn't need that many A321s.

Stitch · Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:46 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I assume ordered 737-9 will be switched to 737-10.

Lion have already confirmed they will be taking 737-9s and using them throughout their subsidiaries: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1364445

Boeing's not going to be offering 737-9 to 737-10 conversions without a price increase so while I am sure we will see -9 to -10 conversions, I do not expect it to be a wholesale process due to the higher costs the -10 will command as part of the deal.

jupiter2 · Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:56 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
keesje wrote:
Not sure but I believe Qantas didn't order MAX and did order a bunch of NEO's.

That might qualify Qantas an airline that "jumped ship" on the 737, although no one ever says so. Jetstar has a (young) fleet of 60 A320 series and there are 100NEO's on order for the group. It will probably take a photo of 6 Qantas NEO's at SYD gates to fight denial.

Qantas ordered NEO's for the Jetstar group, they are yet to order a new narrow body type for mainline. In reality they have no need to rush into any order as their 737 fleet is relatively young and with fuel as is, cost effective to run.

Some of them yes, but the other batch is 2001-2004 build ones which aren't any younger, and they need to be replaced in about 5-10 years' time. Besides, it's strongly rumoured that some of the 45 A321neo that Qantas converted will go to Qantas mainline; Jetstar simply doesn't need that many A321s.

My money would be on the longer of that time frame for replacement of the 738's, unless some serious shooting starts in the middle east and oil suddenly doubles or triples in price. In the mean time the 738's will plug along until close to 2030. Still wondering where the 321neo to Qantas came from, pretty sure it's just someone coming up with 2+2 equalling neo. Sure 45 321neo sound a lot for Jetstar, but there are presently 3 Jetstar franchises to split them with and who's to say there won't be a Jetstar China, or Jetstar Indonesia, or Jetstar India in the next 5-10 years ? Of course they can always be changed back to 320neo's as well at some stage in the future.

Now I'm not saying that there won't be 321neo's at QF, but I'd be more inclined to believe that when QF do make a choice it will be for 737-8max, or if Boeing come out and launch a clean sheet narrow body in the next 5 years, QF order that. Peronally I don't see QF going for the MAX 9 or 10, if they wanted a narrow body that big they would already be operating the 739 or the 321.

keesje · Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:27 pm

Qantas has 0 MAX on order and 0 NG's left on order. They do have 100 Airbus NEO's on order. If Qantas wanted MAX's any time soon, they could have ordered them. They did not. I have no conceptual boundaries seeing Qantas A321s in the near future.

Polot · Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:35 pm

keesje wrote:
Qantas has 0 MAX on order and 0 NG's left on order. They do have 100 Airbus NEO's on order. If Qantas wanted MAX's any time soon, they could have ordered them. They did not. I have no conceptual boundaries seeing Qantas A321s in the near future.

Considering QF deferred the A320neos by ~9 months back in February it appears they don't want anything in the near future.

QF may end up operating the A321, but I think you think QF are in a bigger rush to get the new planes than they actually are, especially as the first A320neos are still expected to be for JetStar. They are not done ordering for their future narrowbody needs.

qf789 · Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:41 pm

keesje wrote:
Qantas has 0 MAX on order and 0 NG's left on order. They do have 100 Airbus NEO's on order. If Qantas wanted MAX's any time soon, they could have ordered them. They did not. I have no conceptual boundaries seeing Qantas A321s in the near future.

The Qantas group ordered the A320/321neos not Qantas mainline, Qantas group includes QF,JQ,GK and 3K. Qantas mainline has yet to decide on the narrow body for future use whether it's the MAX or neo so assuming the A321 is for QF is naive on your part. I also suspect that there next narrow body is also dependent in what Boeing decides on the MOM as this would be very useful for QF mainline

SonomaFlyer · Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:03 pm

This a/c is perfect for Lion Air which needs high volume lift in a narrow body to transport over relatively short distances. This moots the issues with field performance for the most part.

How this a/c performs in a more challenging setting may dictate which airlines order this a/c and if so, how many.

QXAS · Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:16 pm

Here's an idea, a Qantas future narrowbody fleet thread where we can bicker about where the 100 NEOs are going. This thread is about the MAX 10 and Lion Air's probable launch order. We can discuss who else might purchase the plane but that doesn't mean a "QF defected to Airbus" thread when in all reality QF has not made their future narrowbody plans public to my knowledge.
Congrats to Boeing, and Lion Air. It'll be interesting to see how big the order is and how many are new orders and how many are conversions. As for other launch customers, I'd suspect UA, AS, possibly AC depending on plan for A321. I don't see AA or DL as they seem pretty committed to the A321 at this point. I could also see SG and 9W.

PlanesNTrains · Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:51 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
scbriml wrote:

It would be great news if it was a new order, but it looks like a conversion from other versions of MAX. I suspect many -10 orders will be like this.

Did you get that from this statement: "The order for the new 737 MAX 10 model may, however, include some aircraft originally ordered in a smaller size and upgraded to the proposed new 190-230-seat model, two of them said."

As the whole statement including Lion Air becoming a launch customer is may, why should another may not be as important.

So we can just make crap up now? Got it.

81819 · Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:33 pm

QF will have a need for larger planes, not more planes. As the QF 737 fleet is relatively young the addition of the MAX 10 would probably be the less disruptive for QF in achieving this goal.

SVJ77W · Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:11 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Looks like the MAX 10 is a sealed deal, wonder who else is in line.

Jet Airways might be another customer at Paris, according to rumours.

As per the article on the link below, Jet Airways is expected to place an order for 100 jets from Boeing. So could be some 737-10 in that order.

The U.S. firm will reportedly agree in the coming weeks to sell 100 planes to Indian carrier Jet Airways. It is also a top contender to sell another 100 to the country's newest airline, Vistara.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/01/news/economy/india-aircraft-orders-report-capa/index.html

ikolkyo · Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:31 pm

SVJ77W wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Looks like the MAX 10 is a sealed deal, wonder who else is in line.

Jet Airways might be another customer at Paris, according to rumours.

As per the article on the link below, Jet Airways is expected to place an order for 100 jets from Boeing. So could be some 737-10 in that order.

The U.S. firm will reportedly agree in the coming weeks to sell 100 planes to Indian carrier Jet Airways. It is also a top contender to sell another 100 to the country's newest airline, Vistara.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/01/news/economy/india-aircraft-orders-report-capa/index.html

It also seems to suggest that Boeing will sell 100 jets to Vistara also, wonder if there is any truth to that...

keesje · Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:27 pm

i think Boeing is fighting to keep it's two biggest -9 customers from deflecting. Probably a free upgrade defensive move.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-07/boeing-said-to-woo-united-lion-in-bid-to-buttress-max-10-launch

Newbiepilot · Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:33 pm

keesje wrote:
i think Boeing is fighting to keep it's two biggest -9 customers from deflecting. Probably a free upgrade defensive move.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-07/boeing-said-to-woo-united-lion-in-bid-to-buttress-max-10-launch

Neither that article nor any other source that I have seen has implied that the -10 is being offered as a free upgrade as a defensive move. Do you have a source implying that the -10 is being offered free of charge of did you make that up?

Bricktop · Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:36 pm

keesje wrote:
i think Boeing is fighting to keep it's two biggest -9 customers from deflecting. Probably a free upgrade defensive move.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-07/boeing-said-to-woo-united-lion-in-bid-to-buttress-max-10-launch

Because the only way Boeing can sell planes is by giving them away cheap, right. :roll:

Thanks for that input John, I mean keesje.

Newbiepilot · Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:39 pm

Bricktop wrote:
keesje wrote:
i think Boeing is fighting to keep it's two biggest -9 customers from deflecting. Probably a free upgrade defensive move.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-07/boeing-said-to-woo-united-lion-in-bid-to-buttress-max-10-launch

Because the only way Boeing can sell planes is by giving them away cheap, right. Thanks for that input John, I mean keesje.

Not just cheap, Keesje implied that the 737-10 upgrade is free. I hope Boeing launches with a half dozen or more airlines committing to hundreds so that the A321 superiority talk dies down.

Bricktop · Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:43 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
keesje wrote:
i think Boeing is fighting to keep it's two biggest -9 customers from deflecting. Probably a free upgrade defensive move.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-07/boeing-said-to-woo-united-lion-in-bid-to-buttress-max-10-launch

Because the only way Boeing can sell planes is by giving them away cheap, right. Thanks for that input John, I mean keesje.

Not just cheap, Keesje implied that the 737-10 upgrade is free. I hope Boeing launches with a half dozen or more airlines committing to hundreds so that the A321 superiority talk dies down.

Your optimism is amusing.

jbs2886 · Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:10 am

Bricktop wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Because the only way Boeing can sell planes is by giving them away cheap, right. Thanks for that input John, I mean keesje.

Not just cheap, Keesje implied that the 737-10 upgrade is free. I hope Boeing launches with a half dozen or more airlines committing to hundreds so that the A321 superiority talk dies down.

Your optimism is amusing.

While I appreciate Keesje's contributions on technical details, his comments on 737MAX are so distanced from reality. Yes, the A321neo will be superior, but that does not mean it won't get orders or that the 737-MAX7/8/9/10 will not be a better fit for some airlines. I think Boeing may get 30-40% of the market (honestly, at most) in competition with A321neo, but we shouldn't' dismiss the 737-MAXs. To say an airline wouldn't order a MAX10 without getting a "free upgrade" is ridiculous. In fact, I bet these airlines basically have gotten an airline tailored to what they want.

Also, re: Qantas, to say that just because Qantas had the opportunity to order the MAX and more NGs and hasn't that they never will is unreal. Yes, Qantas ordered a ton of neos for JetStar (which is 3 airlines), it is possible some neos go to Qantas, but it isn't an impossibility that Qantas orders 737-MAXs.

flee · Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:41 am

jbs2886 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Not just cheap, Keesje implied that the 737-10 upgrade is free. I hope Boeing launches with a half dozen or more airlines committing to hundreds so that the A321 superiority talk dies down.

Your optimism is amusing.

While I appreciate Keesje's contributions on technical details, his comments on 737MAX are so distanced from reality. Yes, the A321neo will be superior, but that does not mean it won't get orders or that the 737-MAX7/8/9/10 will not be a better fit for some airlines. I think Boeing may get 30-40% of the market (honestly, at most) in competition with A321neo, but we shouldn't' dismiss the 737-MAXs. To say an airline wouldn't order a MAX10 without getting a "free upgrade" is ridiculous. In fact, I bet these airlines basically have gotten an airline tailored to what they want.

Also, re: Qantas, to say that just because Qantas had the opportunity to order the MAX and more NGs and hasn't that they never will is unreal. Yes, Qantas ordered a ton of neos for JetStar (which is 3 airlines), it is possible some neos go to Qantas, but it isn't an impossibility that Qantas orders 737-MAXs.

IMHO, the B737-10 Max is much needed by Boeing pending the arrival of MoM/NSA. Boeing cannot be seen to be doing nothing about the poor sales performance of the B737-9 Max. The shareholders will be questioning the Board as to why nothing is being done to arrest the A321Neo's dominance in that market sector.

The B737-10 Max will sell to many Boeing 737 operators - and it will almost certainly spell the end of the B737-9 Max once deliveries of the B737-10 Max begin. However, it is doubtful that it will ever help Boeing to claw back the lost market share of the past. But it will stop the idea that buying the A321Neo is a no brainer as there is zero competition.

KarelXWB · Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:43 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
keesje wrote:
i think Boeing is fighting to keep it's two biggest -9 customers from deflecting. Probably a free upgrade defensive move.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-07/boeing-said-to-woo-united-lion-in-bid-to-buttress-max-10-launch

Because the only way Boeing can sell planes is by giving them away cheap, right. Thanks for that input John, I mean keesje.

Not just cheap, Keesje implied that the 737-10 upgrade is free. I hope Boeing launches with a half dozen or more airlines committing to hundreds so that the A321 superiority talk dies down.

Customers will have to pay a premium over the MAX 9.

Of course the larger jet will generate more revenue and the A321 has proven that airlines are willing to pay that premium price.

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