Air Canada Montreal -Beirut now very likely?

matthew11 · Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:17 pm

I have been to Beirut a few times. I definitely felt it was a safe modern airport. Very stingy security, many checkstops you have to go through, even before entering the terminal.

Air Canada can do very well on the route. Montreal has a massive Lebanese population. You can't forget connections from Calgary and Toronto who also have fairly large Lebanese populations.
Tourism could be promoted too. Lebanon is a tourist draw for many Europeans, maybe it can somehow translate to North America.

Thenoflyzone · Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:50 am

dlphoenix wrote:
I am not familiar with the security situation at Bey, nor with rumors regarding political pressure.
However:
1) US airlines ceased service to IST way before any security concerns (AC suspended service due to security concerns earlier this year). BEY is a smaller destination with less business ties in the US.
2) AC flies to Cuba despite US resistance, why would they succumb to pressure regarding BEY?
3) There are quite a few capitals in the region with no security concerns and no direct flights to the US or Canada: OTP, PRG, Sofia, BEG, BUD, Etc

Bottom line: I am not sure the absence of direct flights to NA is not a business decision.

1. US airlines canceled IST because the O&D wasn't there and/or because they couldn't compete with TK. As for AC, YUL-BEY is and will always be a larger market than any Canada-IST route.
2. Not an accurate comparison.
3. As was said above, Rouge serves both PRG and BUD, and also, YUL-BEY is larger than both those routes, or any other Eastern European-Canada market.

There is a reason AC wanted to start this route 14 years ago. That reason hasn't changed.

BawliBooch · Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:45 am

off topic: But Beirut seemed to be a very popular stop-over for Eastern carriers in the 60's. Many of Air India's Europe/London bound flights had a stop-over in BEY. My folks have fond memories of "breaking journey" in BEY enroute to London every year.

Seeing Beirut today makes me wonder if my mother was smoking some potent stuff back then (you know 60's India, bell bottoms, bouffants and all that).

Wonder when & where it all went to hell?

N415XJ · Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:06 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Wonder when & where it all went to hell?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War

TL;DR- Beneath the high-quality shops, beaches, etc for rich westerners, people who had been living with sectarian tensions for hundreds of years finally cracked and began fighting each other. Beirut got rebuilt and *sort of* rebounded after the war, and especially after the '06 conflict, but after ~2012 the economy started taking a nose dive and now something like 1/5 of the population is Syrian refugees, most of whom are undocumented and extremely poor. It used to be a very nice place, and I still enjoy it when I visit every now and then, but it's definitely seen better days and the medium-term (even short-term) stability of Lebanon is in serious question.

MIflyer12 · Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:10 am

Google 'Lebanese civil war.'

hisham · Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:27 am

The question is not what your mother was smoking back then but what you're smoking now? How long you've wondering about what happened?

Hisham.

ME720 · Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:17 am

SU flies into BEY. Russia being enemy number one of the Syria terrorists. just 80 km away in Syria. Had BEY not been secure, SU would have suspended flights at the outbreak of the SYria war 6 years ago the way they suspended flights into Egypt after the bombing of the Russian airliner.

adambrau · Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:00 am

I hope the AC flights go ahead and they are successful.

With the complexities of the Middle East, I completely understand why none of our airlines fly their planes to Beirut - US foreign policy. And often the bad consequences stemming from bad decisions. TWA 847, the Marine barracks bombing, the current refugee crisis stemming from our Iraq invasion, longtime support of Israel, etc. So long as the current US Administration continues devaluing our international political capital (to something akin to the German Mark during the times (1922-23) of the Weimar Republic) nobody really wants our advice!

If there is economic sense for the route, now would be the perfect time for AC to launch given the distractions going on in Washington.

ME720 · Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:22 am

Over 100.000 US citizens visit lebanon Every year. a single incident since 1990. The events referred to (marines bombing and TWA) occurred during the civil war, pre 1990. THe US, and others hit involved in that war, and paid the price... the biggest losers were the Lebanese themselves, over 100,000 killed during that war, and hundreds of thousands displaced.. many were killed by weapons supplied by the US and other countries. We have turned the page, and there is no hatred towards US or other people. Proof, many Americans visit Lebanon.. some live in Lebanon, and none has been harmed since the end of the war.

adambrau · Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:58 am

I take your point that some of the incidents I mentioned are indeed historical, but the refugee crisis which is very much happening right now is in part the result of invading a country (Iraq) under prete.xts which turned out to be false. Have several friends who have traveled there with wonderful experiences. I certainly didn't mean to imply there was any general sense of hatred toward Americans but rather I doubt any US carriers will be allowed to operate to Beirut, one of the great Middle East capitals, anytime soon. Could be an advantage if AC wants to fly the route themselves, and they certainly shouldn't be stopped or pressured not to do so by the US Government

IranianMan123 · Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:07 pm

hisham wrote:
LH, BA and AF are not in countries bordering the US which is confronting Iran.

Hisham.

I also hear rumours that Air Canada is planning to start flights into Iran

hisham · Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:50 pm

I also hear rumors that Canada and Iran don't even have diplomatic relations!

Hisham.

CanadaFair · Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:48 pm

AC been interested in Iran since 2005, it was listed along. Istanbul, Casablanca, Dubaii, diplomatic ties to be resumed as well.

Legallykev · Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:46 pm

As the AC GVA flight feeds lots of the traffic to BEY, what impact would a new BEY route have on the GVA flight?

yowza · Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:49 pm

IranianMan123 wrote:
hisham wrote:
LH, BA and AF are not in countries bordering the US which is confronting Iran.

Hisham.

I also hear rumours that Air Canada is planning to start flights into Iran

I have it on good authority that a plan for Iran already exists but will only be acted on when a couple of political considerations take shape. Could be a gold mine for AC.

YOWza

IranianMan123 · Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:27 pm

yowza wrote:
IranianMan123 wrote:
hisham wrote:
LH, BA and AF are not in countries bordering the US which is confronting Iran.

Hisham.

I also hear rumours that Air Canada is planning to start flights into Iran

I have it on good authority that a plan for Iran already exists but will only be acted on when a couple of political considerations take shape. Could be a gold mine for AC.

YOWza

True, route could begin when the Canadian embassy reopens. Similar to Ba resuming flights into Tehran last year, after the embassy reopened

ME720 · Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:18 am

The GVA-BEY ME flight had always been doing Well, Well before the code Sharing agreement with AC. GVA is very high yield
For ME.

ME720 · Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:21 am

According to annahar Lebanese daily ME and AC are in advanced talks for opening YUL-BEY. Flights Will be operated by AC code shared ME.

matthew11 · Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:00 pm

I have relatives in Beirut. They are telling me they have been hearing over the radio that MEA and Air Canada are in talks to get service started between Montreal and Beirut. Interesting there has not been any news mentioned in Canada.

matthew11 · Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:48 pm

Here is an article from a few days ago:
https://en.annahar.com/article/604218-l ... -to-canada

Air Canada are to operate the flights with MEA code sharing. After 2 years of operations, MEA can start operating flights to Canada with their own aircraft.

raffik · Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:00 pm

Interesting- I have also been reading snippets of news regarding this service. Let's see what happens. I am sure they would do very well.
Two years would be enough time for MEA to acquire a better trans atlantic aircraft (or configuration) for such a long service. Currently I believe their A330s are not
equipped with any crew rest facilities. Some adjustments would also be needed to the product- lie flat seats in Business for example.

Speedbirdasia · Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:46 am

YUL-BEY has a good potential given the significant Lebanese community living in Quebec. Politics and Security issues aside, this proposed route would makes a lot of sense starting as a seasonal one and using Air Canada Rouge with B767-300ER.

ME720 · Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:54 am

It Will work mainline all year long.. there is traffic between BEY and N. America. Many would transfer at YUL to other cities in Canada and the US. They will codeshare with MEA. There are no political issues, just security assessments, once those are intoned out ... the service will most probably commence.

matthew11 · Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:20 pm

Speedbirdasia wrote:
YUL-BEY has a good potential given the significant Lebanese community living in Quebec. Politics and Security issues aside, this proposed route would makes a lot of sense starting as a seasonal one and using Air Canada Rouge with B767-300ER.

This will definitely be mainline service using B787. There are big Lebanese populations all over North America that would love to connect in YUL instead of Europe.

oceanbeat · Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:04 pm

Not happening!!!

The federal Goverment rejected Air Canada's request as per Air Canada's CEO twitter"

https://twitter.com/DuncanBureau/status ... 1823700992

matthew11 · Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:22 pm

That's disappointing. I wonder what their reasoning was.

hisham · Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:13 pm

Unfortunately, this is the expected decision.

Hisham.

oceanbeat · Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:26 pm

oceanbeat wrote:
Not happening!!!

The federal Goverment rejected Air Canada's request as per Air Canada's VP of global sales twitter"

https://twitter.com/DuncanBureau/status ... 1823700992

santi319 · Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:22 pm

matthew11 wrote:
That's disappointing. I wonder what their reasoning was.

Its not Canada's or US decision, its Israel's ultimately so..

cf105arrow · Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:40 am

santi319 wrote:
matthew11 wrote:
That's disappointing. I wonder what their reasoning was.

Its not Canada's or US decision, its Israel's ultimately so..

Why would Israel care? It won't affect it in any way!

hinckley · Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:51 am

santi319 wrote:
Its not Canada's or US decision, its Israel's ultimately so..

Ya, that's just a nonsense comment.

That said, I bet that the US was not too happy about the proposal and I wouldn't be surprised if they helped to sway the Canadian decision.

ME720 · Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:25 am

I hope they will reconsider.

ME720 · Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:26 am

I hope they will reconsider.

MalevTU134 · Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:31 am

ME720 wrote:
I hope they will reconsider.

And I think AC will be happy this never happened. Small market, low yield, no onward connections from BEY, long route. It really makes you wonder what they were thinking.a1

raffik · Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:52 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
ME720 wrote:
I hope they will reconsider.

And I think AC will be happy this never happened. Small market, low yield, no onward connections from BEY, long route. It really makes you wonder what they were thinking.a1

Air Canada have wanted this route since 2003. The market out of Beirut is not small at all- they would have been the only non stop carrier from Lebanon to North America- connections through Montreal throughout the United States would have been sizeable. Already most European airlines that operate out of Beirut feed traffic on to America- through Geneva, Istanbul, London, Paris, Frankfurt to name a few. Not to mention the large Lebanese population in Montreal. As for low yielding, that is ridiculous. Have you even looked at flight prices in to Beirut in any peak season period?

We all know this is down to the US marine bombing in Beirut in 1983- MEA was banned from operating in to New York and their 747s were withdrawn from the route which operated via Paris immeadiately.
All direct air routes between Lebanon and America were banned.

How routes in to Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Qatar are allowed are beyond me.

hisham · Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:17 am

After all the issues with the flight discussed here, a lot is beyond you raffik. As for "we all know...", speak for yourself. I don't know such nonsense. You love Lebanon, which is admirable, but countries don't make policies based on your feelings.

Cheers,

Hisham.

raffik · Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:27 am

hisham wrote:
After all the issues with the flight discussed here, a lot is beyond you raffik. As for "we all know...", speak for yourself. I don't know such nonsense. You love Lebanon, which is admirable, but countries don't make policies based on your feelings.

Cheers,

Hisham.

Thank you for your rather patronising nuianced reply Hisham. Can you explain how countries who are deeply riddled with terrorist links such as Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Qatar are allowed non stop North American service and Lebanon isn't? How can Egypt have non stop service to New York when lax security at one of their airports and the collusion of a terrorist organisation allowed an A321 to be booby trapped to explode with the loss of all passengers departing from an Egyptian airport?

Hisham- I am not sure you are even Lebanese or what your history of Lebanon is but factually speaking, US - Lebanon flights were banned as a result of the US marine bombing in Beirut in 1983.
Since the civil war, almost every European airline who had service to Beirut have returned to operate succesfully in to Beirut without bombing/ hijacking etc. Unless there is more information on this that you care to shed to us?

Your anti Lebanon tones throughout these posts are unusual and I am not sure what your motive is behind them but I will tell you that Air Canada would not make at least two serious attempts to operate that route if they hadn't done their homework. They would easily be able to guage how many transfer passengers to and from Beirut pass through Montreal.

hisham · Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:32 am

Thank God more rational people than you decide what air Canada can and can't do. The level of stupidity on this forum is staggering. Time to find a new hobby.

Peace out!

Hisham.

raffik · Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:38 am

hisham wrote:
Thank God more rational people than you decide what air Canada can and can't do. The level of stupidity on this forum is staggering. Time to find a new hobby.

Peace out!

Hisham.

Peace Out yet your posts are anything but peaceful. It is beyond me why you are so patronising and dismissive of other people's opinions.

Air Canada, a large global aviation company with many decades of experience has tried very hard to initiate a direct route to Beirut twice in the space of 10 years
and you think that they do not know what they are doing.. right.

You seem extremely resentful of Lebanon as a country for reasons which I am not interested in but you did fail to answer to me some very valid points I raised- you claim Beirut is such
a terrible place and a dangerous airport to boot, despite nearly every major European airline enjoying succesful, profitable and above all, safe services to it.

mozart · Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:59 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
And I think AC will be happy this never happened.

True words of an ignorant, who claims to know better than one of the world's most professional airlines who has looked at this over a number of years.

Small market,

Obviously not.

low yield,

Obviously not.

no onward connections from BEY

,

So what? What onward connections does AC have from Tel Aviv, Buenos Aires, Casablanca, Barcelona, Algiers, Reykjavik, Lyon, Nice...? If you can fill the plane and have plenty of onward connections at your hub, that's not a problem. It's not as if they had no onward connections at both ends. True, they have even more connections at YYZ than at YUL, but that speaks for the significant local volume in YUL.

long route.

So AC should not be flying long routes? Scrap Montreal-Shanghai? Toronto-Tel Aviv? Vancouver-Sydney? Or is it only long routes from Montreal that should not be flown? Or those over the Atlantic? And what constitutes "long"?

It really makes you wonder what they were thinking.a1

Makes some of us wonder what you were thinking...

I don't share all the blue-eyed and naive enthusiasm that many (expat) Lebanese have for their country, their attachment sometimes reaches ridiculous levels. The country has many elements of a failed state, sits on a powder keg, and they can't even organize the picking up of rubbish. Combine all of that with a cocktail of individual hubris and corruption and you have quite a bit together to make this a shitty place. They call themselves the "Switzerland of the East", but I can assure you that here in Switzerland we don't think of ourselves as the "Lebanon of the West", and we'd be deeply worried if we were. In fact if I had to find an opposite to Switzerland it would be Lebanon. But then there is something that still makes it so much more advanced, open-minded, progressive, with a beautiful landscape, the only country in the region with a free press, real elections, the best university in the region, none of all the moral-societal constraints that you have in the rest of the Middle East - which all taken together makes this one of the most attractive places in the region. It would have deserved a flight to YUL, and I am convinced that AC would have done well.

ME720 · Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:15 pm

I agree, how are countries involved with financing terror like Qatar SAUDi UAE and others opening borders for yerrorists yo cross to Syria like Turkey, to name a few allowed direct links to the US and not Lebanon? This is purely political, nothing to do with security... not a single security breach at BEY since the end of the civil war in 1990. And yes BEY is high yield, even BEY - LCA, CAI and AMM (short hops) are very highly priced.. BEY - YUL would have been very profitable for AC.

Skywatcher · Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:13 pm

I'm sure AF/KL/LH are happy about this They will hold on to their Beirut to North America traffic.
Pity for AC and YUL though. I wish Canada would take on a more independent foreign policy stance in this case at least. This would have been good for the Canadian economy (albeit in a relatively minor way)-why do we keep getting pushed around by the states (softwood lumber/BBD trade dispute etc.) without response?

MalevTU134 · Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:21 pm

mozart wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
And I think AC will be happy this never happened.

True words of an ignorant, who claims to know better than one of the world's most professional airlines who has looked at this over a number of years.

Small market,

Obviously not.

low yield,

Obviously not.

no onward connections from BEY
,

So what? What onward connections does AC have from Tel Aviv, Buenos Aires, Casablanca, Barcelona, Algiers, Reykjavik, Lyon, Nice...? If you can fill the plane and have plenty of onward connections at your hub, that's not a problem. It's not as if they had no onward connections at both ends. True, they have even more connections at YYZ than at YUL, but that speaks for the significant local volume in YUL.

long route.

So AC should not be flying long routes? Scrap Montreal-Shanghai? Toronto-Tel Aviv? Vancouver-Sydney? Or is it only long routes from Montreal that should not be flown? Or those over the Atlantic? And what constitutes "long"?

It really makes you wonder what they were thinking.a1

Makes some of us wonder what you were thinking...

I don't share all the blue-eyed and naive enthusiasm that many (expat) Lebanese have for their country, their attachment sometimes reaches ridiculous levels. The country has many elements of a failed state, sits on a powder keg, and they can't even organize the picking up of rubbish. Combine all of that with a cocktail of individual hubris and corruption and you have quite a bit together to make this a shitty place. They call themselves the "Switzerland of the East", but I can assure you that here in Switzerland we don't think of ourselves as the "Lebanon of the West", and we'd be deeply worried if we were. In fact if I had to find an opposite to Switzerland it would be Lebanon. But then there is something that still makes it so much more advanced, open-minded, progressive, with a beautiful landscape, the only country in the region with a free press, real elections, the best university in the region, none of all the moral-societal constraints that you have in the rest of the Middle East - which all taken together makes this one of the most attractive places in the region. It would have deserved a flight to YUL, and I am convinced that AC would have done well.

Yes, well, don't listen to me, I was just working with Transatlantic route planning (among other things) for a major North American airline (not AC, admittedly) for 5 years, so what do I know compared to all you armchair airline CEOs? I must be truly ignorant.
I have just one question for you: When was the last time a North American airline consistently served a destination in the Middle East, outside Israel? And by consistently, I mean for years, not like UA to KWI and DOH, or DL to DXB, that held out a few years before throwing in the towel? Probably TWA to CAI and RUH until the late 90's?

matthew11 · Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:23 pm

MEA posted on their Facebook book page today which is poorly translated that they are starting new flights to Madrid, Spain. Also that the foreign minister of Lebanon is working on establishing direct flights to Canada in cooperation with Air Canada. Who knows.

matthew11 · Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:28 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
mozart wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
And I think AC will be happy this never happened.

True words of an ignorant, who claims to know better than one of the world's most professional airlines who has looked at this over a number of years.

Small market,

Obviously not.

low yield,

Obviously not.

no onward connections from BEY
,

So what? What onward connections does AC have from Tel Aviv, Buenos Aires, Casablanca, Barcelona, Algiers, Reykjavik, Lyon, Nice...? If you can fill the plane and have plenty of onward connections at your hub, that's not a problem. It's not as if they had no onward connections at both ends. True, they have even more connections at YYZ than at YUL, but that speaks for the significant local volume in YUL.

long route.

So AC should not be flying long routes? Scrap Montreal-Shanghai? Toronto-Tel Aviv? Vancouver-Sydney? Or is it only long routes from Montreal that should not be flown? Or those over the Atlantic? And what constitutes "long"?

It really makes you wonder what they were thinking.a1

Makes some of us wonder what you were thinking...

I don't share all the blue-eyed and naive enthusiasm that many (expat) Lebanese have for their country, their attachment sometimes reaches ridiculous levels. The country has many elements of a failed state, sits on a powder keg, and they can't even organize the picking up of rubbish. Combine all of that with a cocktail of individual hubris and corruption and you have quite a bit together to make this a shitty place. They call themselves the "Switzerland of the East", but I can assure you that here in Switzerland we don't think of ourselves as the "Lebanon of the West", and we'd be deeply worried if we were. In fact if I had to find an opposite to Switzerland it would be Lebanon. But then there is something that still makes it so much more advanced, open-minded, progressive, with a beautiful landscape, the only country in the region with a free press, real elections, the best university in the region, none of all the moral-societal constraints that you have in the rest of the Middle East - which all taken together makes this one of the most attractive places in the region. It would have deserved a flight to YUL, and I am convinced that AC would have done well.

Yes, well, don't listen to me, I was just working with Transatlantic route planning (among other things) for a major North American airline (not AC, admittedly) for 5 years, so what do I know compared to all you armchair airline CEOs? I must be truly ignorant.
I have just one question for you: When was the last time a North American airline consistently served a destination in the Middle East, outside Israel? And by consistently, I mean for years, not like UA to KWI and DOH, or DL to DXB, that held out a few years before throwing in the towel? Probably TWA to CAI and RUH until the late 90's?

Maybe no need for a North American to start those routes as they are already consistently being served by Arab Carriers. Just about every major city in the Middle East have nonstop flights to U.S and sn extent to Canada except for Beirut. The security situation in Beirut isn't any worse than other Middle Eastern cities. A nonstop flight to Beirut from North America whether served by MEA or a North American airline can work as there are huge Lebanese populations in Montreal, Toronto, Detroit, Los Angeles, and more.

CanadaFair · Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:14 pm

raffik wrote:
hisham wrote:
After all the issues with the flight discussed here, a lot is beyond you raffik. As for "we all know...", speak for yourself. I don't know such nonsense. You love Lebanon, which is admirable, but countries don't make policies based on your feelings.

Cheers,

Hisham.

Thank you for your rather patronising nuianced reply Hisham. Can you explain how countries who are deeply riddled with terrorist links such as Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Qatar are allowed non stop North American service and Lebanon isn't? How can Egypt have non stop service to New York when lax security at one of their airports and the collusion of a terrorist organisation allowed an A321 to be booby trapped to explode with the loss of all passengers departing from an Egyptian airport?

Hisham- I am not sure you are even Lebanese or what your history of Lebanon is but factually speaking, US - Lebanon flights were banned as a result of the US marine bombing in Beirut in 1983.
Since the civil war, almost every European airline who had service to Beirut have returned to operate succesfully in to Beirut without bombing/ hijacking etc. Unless there is more information on this that you care to shed to us?

Your anti Lebanon tones throughout these posts are unusual and I am not sure what your motive is behind them but I will tell you that Air Canada would not make at least two serious attempts to operate that route if they hadn't done their homework. They would easily be able to guage how many transfer passengers to and from Beirut pass through Montreal.

I recall him being Syrian from my earlier stint on a.net back in 2000.

Pakistan is not allowed nonstops to US, only on return leg it is.

CanadaFair · Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:44 pm

cf105arrow wrote:
santi319 wrote:
matthew11 wrote:
That's disappointing. I wonder what their reasoning was.

Its not Canada's or US decision, its Israel's ultimately so..

Why would Israel care? It won't affect it in any way!

Israel suffers from the jealous kid syndrome, where it doesn't want its friends to be friends of its enemies, in this case, West, ideally Europe would be too but for some reason, cant be influenced.

MalevTU134 · Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:53 pm

matthew11 wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
mozart wrote:

True words of an ignorant, who claims to know better than one of the world's most professional airlines who has looked at this over a number of years.

Obviously not.

Obviously not.

,

So what? What onward connections does AC have from Tel Aviv, Buenos Aires, Casablanca, Barcelona, Algiers, Reykjavik, Lyon, Nice...? If you can fill the plane and have plenty of onward connections at your hub, that's not a problem. It's not as if they had no onward connections at both ends. True, they have even more connections at YYZ than at YUL, but that speaks for the significant local volume in YUL.

So AC should not be flying long routes? Scrap Montreal-Shanghai? Toronto-Tel Aviv? Vancouver-Sydney? Or is it only long routes from Montreal that should not be flown? Or those over the Atlantic? And what constitutes "long"?

Makes some of us wonder what you were thinking...

I don't share all the blue-eyed and naive enthusiasm that many (expat) Lebanese have for their country, their attachment sometimes reaches ridiculous levels. The country has many elements of a failed state, sits on a powder keg, and they can't even organize the picking up of rubbish. Combine all of that with a cocktail of individual hubris and corruption and you have quite a bit together to make this a shitty place. They call themselves the "Switzerland of the East", but I can assure you that here in Switzerland we don't think of ourselves as the "Lebanon of the West", and we'd be deeply worried if we were. In fact if I had to find an opposite to Switzerland it would be Lebanon. But then there is something that still makes it so much more advanced, open-minded, progressive, with a beautiful landscape, the only country in the region with a free press, real elections, the best university in the region, none of all the moral-societal constraints that you have in the rest of the Middle East - which all taken together makes this one of the most attractive places in the region. It would have deserved a flight to YUL, and I am convinced that AC would have done well.

Yes, well, don't listen to me, I was just working with Transatlantic route planning (among other things) for a major North American airline (not AC, admittedly) for 5 years, so what do I know compared to all you armchair airline CEOs? I must be truly ignorant.
I have just one question for you: When was the last time a North American airline consistently served a destination in the Middle East, outside Israel? And by consistently, I mean for years, not like UA to KWI and DOH, or DL to DXB, that held out a few years before throwing in the towel? Probably TWA to CAI and RUH until the late 90's?

Maybe no need for a North American to start those routes as they are already consistently being served by Arab Carriers. Just about every major city in the Middle East have nonstop flights to U.S and sn extent to Canada except for Beirut. The security situation in Beirut isn't any worse than other Middle Eastern cities. A nonstop flight to Beirut from North America whether served by MEA or a North American airline can work as there are huge Lebanese populations in Montreal, Toronto, Detroit, Los Angeles, and more.

According to Wikipedia, the "huge" Lebanese population in Montréal is 90.000 people. And trust me, even that is irrelevant when planning new longhaul routes. Those 90.000 people will, at best, constitute a base for VFR traffic, which is the lowest yield traffic there is. Business traffic on the route would be negligible, and even less so if it's less than daily. I estimate YUL-BEY to be 11-12 hours eastward, 12-13 hours going west. (And for the record, before somebody comes with the comparison, that is 3 hours longer than ALG, for example.) To fly that distance profitably, you need a business-heavy combination of traffic, otherwise don't even bother thinking about it. If you don't believe me, then please prove me wrong by naming a single successful (meaning having been around profitably for years) transatlantic route by one of the major North American or Western European carriers that depends on VFR or ethnic traffic. Those carriers, including AC, either aren't interested in those routes, or if they get it wrong and get "stuck" with the wrong mix of passengers, the dump those routes. I've been part of the team that does that...study, plan, start, reprogram and dump routes. BEY doesn't tick any of the boxes needed to be successful. That's why I said in a previous post that I wonder what AC was thinking, and that they will be happy it never happened.

matthew11 · Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:46 pm

A couple articles released in reaction to the refusal :
http://m.huffingtonpost.ca/thomas-woodl ... _23025036/

https://www.the961.com/canadian-govt-re ... ut-flight/

abrelosojos · Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:21 am

Sources tell me that the concerns raised by security agencies were significant enough to ensure denial of rights to Beirut. The Canadian government is one of the last remaining sane folks our there so if they deem Lebanon a security risk, there must be logic to it. After all, they did allow the Algiers flight to go on.

While AC network planners have had several interesting adds recently, I question YUL-BEY. It is a long thin VFR route, and the Lebanon-Canada business ties are not as strong to support J traffic. Also, I am not sure the average income level of Lebanese diaspora against (say) Iranians who are well off.

Saludos,
Alex

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