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Yflyer
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:13 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
SMF might be able to serve as a secondary airport for the bay area.


I have long dreamt of transatlantic flights from SMF. It would be interesting if someone like Norwegian or WOW started flights here as an alternative to the Bay Area, although they already serve OAK and SFO. And right now most people I know in the Sacramento area simply drive to SFO for international flights. Maybe with a transatlantic flight of our own some of that traffic would stay here.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:48 am

AaronPGH wrote:
PIT will actually have three non-stop destinations by the end of June... CDG on DL, FRA on Condor, and KEF on WOW. I know BA is still a heavy target of the airport authority with London the top TATL destination. Normally I'd say we're probably done at this point, but they keep pulling off crazy stuff, so who knows.


It's pretty amazing that PIT has 3 nonstop destinations in Europe yet not one of them is to London, by far the largest market. I agree the ACAA is not done expanding PIT's int'l portfolio especially after pulling off the upcoming scheduled nonstop charters from China.

I was thinking about Condor's PIT-FRA and how limited the first year's season is. It was announced much later than usual for new European route announcements so maybe aircraft availability played a factor. But the fact that they are willing to offer such limited seasons is interesting and with that in mind I wonder if there are opportunities for a similarly limited schedule to MUC. Specifically mid-Sept to mid-Aug for Oktoberfest. With good marketing I think such flights would be a success for beer drinking cities such as Pittsburgh. The city has the most bars per capita in the US, the most successful Hofbrauhaus in the US, and home to the future National Museum of Beer. The time of year should work well too - the seasonal N. America - FRA flights are ending so there may be a window of aircraft availability before the winter sun schedules kick in. PDX and a few other beer drinking cities might be a good option for this idea. Just a thought.
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B747forever
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:59 am

bigfoot0503 wrote:
B747forever wrote:
lhpdx wrote:
PDX has DL to AMS,LHR, Icelandair to KEF, and Condor to FRA... It could probably support addition service during the summer months.............


I would say that PDX is already rather well served and should instead focus on trying to keep the TATL routes it has sustainable.


And in making that statement you are basing your opinion on what???

Perhaps the 24% increase in international passengers at PDX from 2016 to 2017 is too modest of a figure??? I'm convinved that the airlines and the Port of Portland are not done adding international flights.


PDX already has service to LHR/AMS/KEF/FRA. Only large Euro hub lacking is CDG, and with DL already flying to AMS I doubt that is coming soon. Where else can PDX sustain TATL service to? Besides, it should first try to get the LHR service to daily and/or year round.
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AaronPGH
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:13 am

flyPIT wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
But the fact that they are willing to offer such limited seasons is interesting and with that in mind I wonder if there are opportunities for a similarly limited schedule to MUC. Specifically mid-Sept to mid-Aug for Oktoberfest. With good marketing I think such flights would be a success for beer drinking cities such as Pittsburgh. The city has the most bars per capita in the US, the most successful Hofbrauhaus in the US, and home to the future National Museum of Beer. The time of year should work well too - the seasonal N. America - FRA flights are ending so there may be a window of aircraft availability before the winter sun schedules kick in. PDX and a few other beer drinking cities might be a good option for this idea. Just a thought.


That is an interesting idea for sure, and ACAA is really killing it with their targeted Facebook ad campaigns. One thing that I heard from someone that was surprising is that for WOW bookings, Berlin SXF to PGH via KEF has been one of the top markets so far, and they weren't expecting that. Maybe because of arts and music scene connectivity?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:19 am

Flighty wrote:
Maybe this that is just an emotional argument.

No real "maybe" about it... you just want to see a European airline/hub add service there.
Nothing wrong with that. But also, as mentioned earlier, there's nothing particularly strategic about it either.

The whole reason airlines push for nonstops to LHR/CDG/FRA/etc is because those hubs open up a plethora of new 1stops to medium/small cities that even the likes of ATL/ORD/EWR cannot match. KEF doesn't really provide that. At least, not yet.



Nola wrote:
I hope that MSY-CDG will be AF not DY

The chances of that are slim to none.

AF failed in major cities such as MCO and DFW; has handed enormous gateways like EWR, PHL, SEA, ORD, etc over to DL due to lack of suitable aircraft, among other factors; and hasn't even attempted larger leisure-oriented markets such as LAS, TPA, SAN, etc.

Maybe DL might give it a whack with a 763ER someday, or who knows what this new "Boost" offshoot might do.
But more than likely, CDG-MSY is a market that's open to DY for the taking.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
DariusBieber
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:25 am

Definitely SAT. It has upped its international flights, although to Mexico and Canada only.
Aerospace Engineering student
 
Dominion301
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:26 am

usdcaguy wrote:
Lemieux wrote:
RDU with AA to LHR and DL to CDG


Those cities already have enough service (ATL already has flights to many points in Europe, Asia and Africa), though RDU might be able to use a flight to AMS on DL. RDU is not a tourist destination, so DY is not likely to fly there.

Otherwise, I could see BUF benefitting from DY flights to LON given its proximity to YYZ and Niagara Falls, flights to PSP Sep-Apr (would need CBP facilities), FI to HOU/SAT/DFW and Level from BCN to SFO.


Yup I was going to say the same thing, especially since BUF is within MAX range of the UK/Ireland. Bring pax in who want to visit Niagara Falls and take pax out from the region that want to avoid YYZ.

Adipasquale wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
Otherwise, I could see BUF benefitting from DY flights to LON given its proximity to YYZ and Niagara Falls

I also wonder about the likelihood of BUF getting TATL service, as it's my home airport. I would agree that DY to LON seems the likeliest, after they get the MAX. I'm by no means an expert, but I see some compelling reasons this could work: chiefly proximity to Niagara Falls, an alternative for price sensitive Canadians and Canadians who live closer to BUF than YYZ, and leisure travellers from all over upstate NY (Rochester is a little less than 1.5 hours from BUF, and Syracuse is about 3) who would rather make a relatively short drive than fly out of a closer airport and connect. I'd like to hear people who have more knowledge in the area's thoughts on this.


While BUF could definitely pull from ROC too, less so from SYR as SYR is also 3 hours from YOW that's had transatlantic service for decades. I'm at YOW regularly and almost always see at least a couple of NY plates in the parking lot... mind you many of those also hail from the "North Country" as Ogdensburg is only an hour from YOW.
Last edited by Dominion301 on Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:34 am

Edit: duplicate post.
 
Airventure737
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:41 am

I wouldn't be surprised if MEM gets some sort of twice-weekly transatlantic service from Norwegian by 2025. Viking Cruise Line was considering making Memphis a base.
 
Taco2sDay
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:07 am

There will be no International flights at DAL due to the Wright (Wrong) Amendment agreement.

DY to HOU is an interesting proposition. While I consider Houston Tier 1, HOU would be mid-sized.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:22 am

My pick for next mid size airports getting transatlantic service would be STL, BNA, CLE, and maybe RNO for tourist traffic. The first three have had Europe service before and RNO was announced but not started.

As interesting as it would be to see SMF, I'm not sure it has the business base to support an overseas flight, like say AUS does.
 
SFOATLFlyer
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:49 am

DariusBieber wrote:
Definitely SAT. It has upped its international flights, although to Mexico and Canada only.


IMO, SAT is too close to AUS which is exploding with growth. AUS is likely going to get some more service to Europe before SAT.. The best hope for SAT is a Norwegian, Condor type service and I'm not even sure that will work.
 
Adipocere
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:51 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
SMF, GEG, BOI and ABQ come to mind.


GEG and BOI seem like stretches, SMF might be able to serve as a secondary airport for the bay area.


I think once you start counting SMF as an outlying Bay Area city then I don't think it should be considered a "secondary city" - it would become part of the Bay Area urban agglomeration. I am just thinking of large swathes of the Western US with no international airport for hundreds of miles around, where a new airline can come in and almost make the market.
 
Bigdaddye
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:51 am

Here is my question, with IND getting some new service. . . does anyone think IND market is big enough to offer daily non stop flights to Europe???
 
Bigdaddye
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:02 am

Bigdaddye wrote:
Here is my question, with IND getting some new service. . . does anyone think IND market is big enough to offer daily non stop flights to Europe???


To expand on my post, I would be interested in hearing why IND would get trans Atlantic service over CMH, or visa versa...
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:40 am

Bigdaddye wrote:
Bigdaddye wrote:
Here is my question, with IND getting some new service. . . does anyone think IND market is big enough to offer daily non stop flights to Europe???


To expand on my post, I would be interested in hearing why IND would get trans Atlantic service over CMH, or visa versa...


At least to my knowledge Indianapolis has much stronger business ties to Europe than Columbus. Large multi-national companies like Rolls-Royce, Cummins, Roche, Eli Lilly, Salesforce, (Soon to be Infosys) all have significant travel between IND-LHR and IND-LHR-beyond, plus during the month of May IND sees an extremely large influx in european visitors to watch the Indy Grand Prix and Indy 500. Columbus on the other hand I don't believe has as strong of ties with europe, I know there is Siemens and Boehringer Ingelheim but after that there aren't as many large multi-national companies that have a significant presence in Columbus. Futhermore, the CMH and IND market are about dead even so that wouldn't provide an advantage for one or the other. Therefore I think IND gets the bump over CMH, due to business and tourism.

I would like to hear the opinion of someone from Columbus though.
ORD & IND

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YIMBY
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:55 am

kavok wrote:
Either way the question becomes, if you are flying USA-HUB-EUR.... is it better to have the hub in the US or in Europe?

So, the real question is, if a majority of the pax on a plane are connecting somewhere..., where is it that makes the most sense to make that connection?


For a one-stop travel, It is definitely better to have the hub in Europe than in the USA. The connection in USA is horrible - either you have to reserve hours for it or risk losing your connection while in queue. There is some variation related to time and place, but so far in my experience the smoothest TATL-domestic connection in the US (which was LAX before 9/11) has been harder than the most complex TATL connection in EU (which is LHR). Brexit may make LHR less favourable and new, planned or surprising security issues may complicate it in either side of Atlantic.

Moreover, the domestic connection in Europe may be more comfortable than in the USA, if flying economy class. Higher classes may be different.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:47 am

YIMBY wrote:
kavok wrote:
Either way the question becomes, if you are flying USA-HUB-EUR.... is it better to have the hub in the US or in Europe?
So, the real question is, if a majority of the pax on a plane are connecting somewhere..., where is it that makes the most sense to make that connection?

For a one-stop travel, It is definitely better to have the hub in Europe than in the USA. The connection in USA is horrible - either you have to reserve hours for it or risk losing your connection while in queue. There is some variation related to time and place, but so far in my experience the smoothest TATL-domestic connection in the US (which was LAX before 9/11) has been harder than the most complex TATL connection in EU (which is LHR). Brexit may make LHR less favourable and new, planned or surprising security issues may complicate it in either side of Atlantic.

THAT isn't the reason.

Cities/businesses don't spend millions luring and/or subsidizing international flights so that someone can feel better about a connection; they do it so that someone can ELIMINATE (at least one) connection altogether.

It's because foreign hubs will open additional 1stop options to markets that don't themselves have a nonstop to any US gateway; and businesses (for whom time is money) historically respond to that.

Example:
You're based in IND (just as an example) and you're courting a company with significantly lucrative interests in MRS.
There's currently no way to get from IND to MRS with less than 2stops, even via ultra-powerful hubs like ATL or ORD.
But if BA were to launch IND-LHR, there's now suddenly several 1stop options between these two.
Same if it were FRA, or really any of the major Euro hubs.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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klm617
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:06 am

YIMBY wrote:
kavok wrote:
Either way the question becomes, if you are flying USA-HUB-EUR.... is it better to have the hub in the US or in Europe?

So, the real question is, if a majority of the pax on a plane are connecting somewhere..., where is it that makes the most sense to make that connection?


For a one-stop travel, It is definitely better to have the hub in Europe than in the USA. The connection in USA is horrible - either you have to reserve hours for it or risk losing your connection while in queue. There is some variation related to time and place, but so far in my experience the smoothest TATL-domestic connection in the US (which was LAX before 9/11) has been harder than the most complex TATL connection in EU (which is LHR). Brexit may make LHR less favourable and new, planned or surprising security issues may complicate it in either side of Atlantic.

Moreover, the domestic connection in Europe may be more comfortable than in the USA, if flying economy class. Higher classes may be different.



You are so correct my friend and I'm glad someone gets this. Number one because on the return leg you always have to clear customs before you can make you onward connection in the USA something that is not necessary when connecting at a Euro hub.The are also far less out of the way hubs in Europe then there are in the USA. Who want's to transfer at ATL when fly from IND to Europe or in DFW when going from ICT to Europe.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:38 pm

klm617 wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
kavok wrote:
Either way the question becomes, if you are flying USA-HUB-EUR.... is it better to have the hub in the US or in Europe?

So, the real question is, if a majority of the pax on a plane are connecting somewhere..., where is it that makes the most sense to make that connection?


For a one-stop travel, It is definitely better to have the hub in Europe than in the USA. The connection in USA is horrible - either you have to reserve hours for it or risk losing your connection while in queue. There is some variation related to time and place, but so far in my experience the smoothest TATL-domestic connection in the US (which was LAX before 9/11) has been harder than the most complex TATL connection in EU (which is LHR). Brexit may make LHR less favourable and new, planned or surprising security issues may complicate it in either side of Atlantic.

Moreover, the domestic connection in Europe may be more comfortable than in the USA, if flying economy class. Higher classes may be different.



You are so correct my friend and I'm glad someone gets this. Number one because on the return leg you always have to clear customs before you can make you onward connection in the USA something that is not necessary when connecting at a Euro hub.The are also far less out of the way hubs in Europe then there are in the USA. Who want's to transfer at ATL when fly from IND to Europe or in DFW when going from ICT to Europe.


IND to ATL is maybe an hour's flying time with multiple flights daily. I agree it's far less attractive than a nonstop to Schiphol, but IND would require a very small plane to be profitable, and I don't think the 757 or A321 could do it. Someday, A and B will create an aircraft with about 150 seats with much better range that would allow smaller cities to have more nonstops, but as of now, that's not available.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:11 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
IND to ATL is maybe an hour's flying time with multiple flights daily. I agree it's far less attractive than a nonstop to Schiphol, but IND would require a very small plane to be profitable, and I don't think the 757 or A321 could do it.

757 could do it just fine.

Delta's CVG-AMS was a 752 in its last days, and IND-AMS is only 25nm longer.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
LAXSTEW
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:40 pm

Wish DL would consider ONT-CDG/AMS. For the SoCal-Europe market that wants to avoid LAX.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:48 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
IND to ATL is maybe an hour's flying time with multiple flights daily. I agree it's far less attractive than a nonstop to Schiphol, but IND would require a very small plane to be profitable, and I don't think the 757 or A321 could do it.

757 could do it just fine.

Delta's CVG-AMS was a 752 in its last days, and IND-AMS is only 25nm longer.


It may be possible distance-wise, but it has yet to be tried, and it could be due to a lack of premium demand. Even NW never served the route when it flew numerous O&D routes from there that no longer exist. That may be why AA has yet to try IND-LHR, which would be even better than AMS on DL.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:52 pm

LAXSTEW wrote:
Wish DL would consider ONT-CDG/AMS. For the SoCal-Europe market that wants to avoid LAX.

Want ≠ paying top dollar for.

They can sit there wanting it all day long, but until someone puts up the money to assure the route, then it ain't happening.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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posti
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:04 pm

UWPAviation wrote:
The day MKE gets a Transatlantic flight will be the happiest day in my life


Without diving into the traffic numbers, I think MKE would be able to support a 4-7 times weekly Norwegian 788 flight to LGW (less so to CPH, OSL, or BCN). I know, I know, MKE is so close to ORD, but low cost Trans-Atlantic fares surely would attract a ton of Wisconsinites and one or two of our neighbors to the south as well.

* I just moved back to MKE after living 10 miles from LGW.
MKE via RAC, LAF, VRN, SEA, and LGW
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:22 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
IND to ATL is maybe an hour's flying time with multiple flights daily. I agree it's far less attractive than a nonstop to Schiphol, but IND would require a very small plane to be profitable, and I don't think the 757 or A321 could do it.

757 could do it just fine.

Delta's CVG-AMS was a 752 in its last days, and IND-AMS is only 25nm longer.


It may be possible distance-wise, but it has yet to be tried, and it could be due to a lack of premium demand. Even NW never served the route when it flew numerous O&D routes from there that no longer exist. That may be why AA has yet to try IND-LHR, which would be even better than AMS on DL.


NW's focus city in IND wasn't around long enough to see the route come into being. Before the merger with DL, NW said on numerous occasions their goal was to open up IND-AMS, and without the merger it would have happened by now.

https://airwaysmag.com/industry/analysi ... s-service/
ORD & IND

AA & DL
 
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klm617
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:38 pm

posti wrote:
UWPAviation wrote:
The day MKE gets a Transatlantic flight will be the happiest day in my life


Without diving into the traffic numbers, I think MKE would be able to support a 4-7 times weekly Norwegian 788 flight to LGW (less so to CPH, OSL, or BCN). I know, I know, MKE is so close to ORD, but low cost Trans-Atlantic fares surely would attract a ton of Wisconsinites and one or two of our neighbors to the south as well.

* I just moved back to MKE after living 10 miles from LGW.



I don't think so maybe with a 737 but a 788 is way to much airplane for 3 or 4 times a week they aren't even serving DEN with that amount of frequency.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:42 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
LAXSTEW wrote:
Wish DL would consider ONT-CDG/AMS. For the SoCal-Europe market that wants to avoid LAX.

Want ≠ paying top dollar for.

They can sit there wanting it all day long, but until someone puts up the money to assure the route, then it ain't happening.


ONT can't even support a flight to Hawaii, let alone a Europe non-stop. I know it's a large population base, but doesn't seem to be able to support much service.
 
B747forever
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:51 pm

LAXSTEW wrote:
Wish DL would consider ONT-CDG/AMS. For the SoCal-Europe market that wants to avoid LAX.


Sorry, but I doubt ONT will ever see any long haul nonstop route. Even LCCs such as WOW air and Norwegian flies from LAX.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
RobertS975
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:53 pm

A prior post asked whether it is preferable to fly from second tier city to Europe and then connect vs. second tier city to large US hub and direct to eventual European destination. Here are some considerations: many of these nonstop to Europe from second tier cities are on carriers which do not offer connecting service like FI or DY etc. One would presumably have to make connections on a separate ticket and if there is checked luggage, that would possibly require exiting security, collecting luggage and checking in all over again in the European connecting city.

Personally, I would rather wake up after an overnight flight at my final destination. That means connecting in a US hub. I allow many hours for that connection to avoid missed connections, but I generally have lounge privileges. However, I generally fly out of BOS and have DL elite status, so BOS-AMS-XXX is a frequent flight.

Coming home, I sure love landing at BOS and not having to collect luggage at a US connecting hub, redepositing the luggage with the airline for the connecting flight to BOS etc.
 
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jnev3289
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:13 pm

B747forever wrote:
LAXSTEW wrote:
Wish DL would consider ONT-CDG/AMS. For the SoCal-Europe market that wants to avoid LAX.


Sorry, but I doubt ONT will ever see any long haul nonstop route. Even LCCs such as WOW air and Norwegian flies from LAX.

I don't see any reasons on the surface it wouldn't work
 
N383SW
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:31 pm

Flighty wrote:
It's understandable you might prefer a London flight, but I would stand up for a KEF flight being useful. It is a little hard to articulate why, but I think having a single airline connection that puts you down in Europe, then a short hop to various points in Europe, is superior to what you get from USA carriers. Maybe this that is just an emotional argument. You could also use AA or Delta and get single-airline 1-stop connections to most popular Europe stations from St Louis. I would prefer Icelandair as a better way to arrive home, and a fun way to arrive in Europe, without the hassle of an ATL or PHL connection, or a JFK connection. None of which are super appealing... JMO...


I've kind of thought that FI would do pretty well in STL. The 757 has the range for STL-KEF and would probably be the right size plane for it. Their fares seem reasonable and they seem more apt to do non daily and seasonal. If they could get an agreement with WN for connections that would be gravy. LH to FRA seems really nice but do they have an airplane that is "small" enough to test the demand? TW didn't even have consistent service STL-FRA with all of the connections over STL. Does BA want to use a valuable LHR slot for STL? Do they have enough 788's to attempt it? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see BA, LH, or even AF/KL but I just feel that they have bigger fish to fry. I'd love to see something happen and be successful, for sure!
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:33 pm

jnev3289 wrote:
B747forever wrote:
LAXSTEW wrote:
Wish DL would consider ONT-CDG/AMS. For the SoCal-Europe market that wants to avoid LAX.


Sorry, but I doubt ONT will ever see any long haul nonstop route. Even LCCs such as WOW air and Norwegian flies from LAX.

I don't see any reasons on the surface it wouldn't work


Nobody wants to go to Ontario?
Distance and lack of easy transportation from to SoCal tourist hot spots?
 
Andy33
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:35 pm

What does strike me about all but a handful of posts in this thread, they give lots of reasons why people living in the US might use flights to Europe from US second-tier airports, but precious few reasons why people living in Europe might want to fly to those US second-tier airports.
Unless the route is going to be so lucrative that it will pay its way on tickets sold in the US only, an airline needs to market these routes successfully at both ends. It would be more convincing if the advocates of particular airports came up with traffic flows from the European end as well, because the airport management certainly has to when doing a sales pitch to airlines.
 
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jnev3289
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:37 pm

Distance is not really something to consider when you're talking LHLC. MKE is considered a Chicago market for that kind of thing. People will drive hours for a lower fare internationally.I feel like the advent of "Include nearby airports" on popular travel sites is a massive help to secondary airports, and not something that was common even a couple years ago.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:39 pm

B747forever wrote:
LAXSTEW wrote:
Wish DL would consider ONT-CDG/AMS. For the SoCal-Europe market that wants to avoid LAX.


Sorry, but I doubt ONT will ever see any long haul nonstop route. Even LCCs such as WOW air and Norwegian flies from LAX.


That's because LAX is way too cheap and disturbing the market. The airport is already overcrowded but still they don't raise their prices. They could charge double and still keep a significant market share, however most LCC traffic that doesn't need to be at LAX like Norwegian would shift to other airports in the region. Ontario would be sustainable if it wouldn't have LAX nearby.

What other airports could have transatlantic flights that don't have them yet? Maybe Myrtle Beach, Charleston, Savannah or Jacksonville. This part of the coast is a bit unknown to Europeans who either go further north (Boston, New York or Washington), further west (Charlotte or Atlanta) or further south (Orlando, Fort Lauderdale or Miami).

Of course you can also revert this question, which second-tier European airports can support flights to the USA?
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:45 pm

jnev3289 wrote:
Distance is not really something to consider when you're talking LHLC. MKE is considered a Chicago market for that kind of thing. People will drive hours for a lower fare internationally.I feel like the advent of "Include nearby airports" on popular travel sites is a massive help to secondary airports, and not something that was common even a couple years ago.


MKE has direct train connection to Downtown Chicago. The successful secondary airports like OAK, PVD, FLL always have excellent ground (public?) transportation options to their targeted region. ONT has none of that. The Europeans are not really interested in having to rent a car to get to LA - by the time you add the car rental cost, gas, and the cost of parking in LA any airfare savings has evaporated..
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:46 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Nobody wants to go to Ontario?
Distance and lack of easy transportation from to SoCal tourist hot spots?


That might be the case, however for a significant price difference people will often accept these kind of inconveniences. Suppose you can get a flight to Europe from LAX for 400 dollars and from Ontario to the same destination in Europe for 200 dollars, what would you do? Ontario is the type of airport that relies on a low fare.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:50 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
ONT has none of that. The Europeans are not really interested in having to rent a car to get to LA - by the time you add the car rental cost, gas, and the cost of parking in LA any airfare savings has evaporated..


Maybe not, but a connecting bus service is set up in no time at all and doesn't cost much. Look at Eindhoven for example. There's a scheduled bus service between Eindhoven airport and the city of Amsterdam. Tickets are available for very cheap, far cheaper than taking the bus to Eindhoven central station and then taking the train to Amsterdam. This makes Eindhoven a viable alternative to Amsterdam airport despite the fact that it's quite a distance and the airport doesn't have it's own railway station.
 
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jnev3289
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:53 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
jnev3289 wrote:
Distance is not really something to consider when you're talking LHLC. MKE is considered a Chicago market for that kind of thing. People will drive hours for a lower fare internationally.I feel like the advent of "Include nearby airports" on popular travel sites is a massive help to secondary airports, and not something that was common even a couple years ago.


MKE has direct train connection to Downtown Chicago. The successful secondary airports like OAK, PVD, FLL always have excellent ground (public?) transportation options to their targeted region. ONT has none of that. The Europeans are not really interested in having to rent a car to get to LA - by the time you add the car rental cost, gas, and the cost of parking in LA any airfare savings has evaporated..

You savings have disappeared, I say the savings paid for my rental car and the awesome convenience it allows me
 
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bigfoot0503
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:58 pm

B747forever wrote:
bigfoot0503 wrote:
B747forever wrote:

I would say that PDX is already rather well served and should instead focus on trying to keep the TATL routes it has sustainable.


And in making that statement you are basing your opinion on what???

Perhaps the 24% increase in international passengers at PDX from 2016 to 2017 is too modest of a figure??? I'm convinved that the airlines and the Port of Portland are not done adding international flights.


PDX already has service to LHR/AMS/KEF/FRA. Only large Euro hub lacking is CDG, and with DL already flying to AMS I doubt that is coming soon. Where else can PDX sustain TATL service to? Besides, it should first try to get the LHR service to daily and/or year round.


I am well aware of the international non-stops available at PDX. I do agree with you that LHR ultimately needs to go year round, however even the DL SLC-LHR flight with excellent feed has been drawn back to seasonal only. I wouldn't discount the notion that PDX-CDG on DL could be initiated down the road. That is the one city pair other than LHR (previously) that seems to garner the most discussion as far as potential service. PDX has become somewhat of a "Sky Team" anomaly...outside of the the traditional DL hub and focus cities it is the only US city with DL non-stops to two European Sky Team hubs. The significance of PDX was reaffirmed with the recent add of Aero Mexico non-stops to another Sky Team hub at Mexcio City.
edit:sp
Last edited by bigfoot0503 on Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
UALFAson
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:04 pm

klm617 wrote:
The are also far less out of the way hubs in Europe then there are in the USA. Who want's to transfer at ATL when fly from IND to Europe or in DFW when going from ICT to Europe.


But why wouldn't you fly Europe-IND via JFK if on DL or Europe-ICT via ORD if on AA? You are deliberately picking out-of-the-way routings to illustrate your point. Depending on where one is coming from in the U.S. and where they are going in Europe, LHR, MAD, and especially FRA could just as easily require a 1-2 hour out of the way or backtracking flight.
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usflyer msp
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:09 pm

jnev3289 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
jnev3289 wrote:
Distance is not really something to consider when you're talking LHLC. MKE is considered a Chicago market for that kind of thing. People will drive hours for a lower fare internationally.I feel like the advent of "Include nearby airports" on popular travel sites is a massive help to secondary airports, and not something that was common even a couple years ago.


MKE has direct train connection to Downtown Chicago. The successful secondary airports like OAK, PVD, FLL always have excellent ground (public?) transportation options to their targeted region. ONT has none of that. The Europeans are not really interested in having to rent a car to get to LA - by the time you add the car rental cost, gas, and the cost of parking in LA any airfare savings has evaporated..

You savings have disappeared, I say the savings paid for my rental car and the awesome convenience it allows me


You have a drivers license and extensive experience driving in the US. Many Europeans do not. Hell, I would pay EXTRA money to not have to drive in LA traffic or attempt to park there...
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:09 pm

Most up to date passenger numbers (2011 brookings institute data)

London:

(2011 passenger total)
Indianapolis- 30,732
Nashville- 27,456
Columbus- 24,968
St Louis- 28,417
Cleveland- 24,532
Milwaukee- 6,048

Frankfurt:
Indianapolis- 13,932
Nashville- 9,984
Columbus- 7,603
St Louis- 16,092
Cleveland- 11,429
Milwaukee- 3,691

Paris:
Indianapolis- 10,785
Nashville- 8,989
Columbus- 8,661
St Louis- 13,391
Cleveland- 12,168
Milwaukee- 2,934

Rome:
Indianapolis- 7,546
Nashville- 6,195
Columbus- 6,975
St Louis- 11,570
Cleveland- 11,666
Milwaukee- 2,330

Total: (St.Louis, 69,470) (Indianapolis, 62,995)(Cleveland, 59,795)(Nashville, 52,624)(Columbus, 48,207)(Milwaukee, 15,003)

Next largest markets from each of the cities

Indianapolis-(Manchester,6,375),(Delhi,5,663),(Amsterdam,5,492),(Zurich,5,082),(Munich,4,963)
Nashville-(Dublin,4,870)(Cairo,4,331)(Amsterdam,4,251)(Munich,4,068)(Manchester,3,715)
St.louis-(Amsterdam,7,314)(Tel Aviv,7,214)(Dublin,7,037)(Madrid,5,813)(Munich,5,564)
Cleveland-(Tel Aviv,9,148)(Amsterdam,7,209)(Delhi,5,866)(Dublin,5,306,)(Brussels,5,057)
Columbus-(Amsterdam,5,991)(Hyderabad,5,015)(Mumbai,4,604)(Delhi,4,391)(Barcelona,3,928)
ORD & IND

AA & DL
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:13 pm

klm617 wrote:
You are so correct my friend and I'm glad someone gets this. Number one because on the return leg you always have to clear customs before you can make you onward connection in the USA something that is not necessary when connecting at a Euro hub.The are also far less out of the way hubs in Europe then there are in the USA. Who want's to transfer at ATL when fly from IND to Europe or in DFW when going from ICT to Europe.


I would fly IND-BOS/JFK-Europe (or ICT-ORD-Eur), but I guess a logical connection wouldn't support your scenario. As a US citizen with Global entry and no checked bags, I never have problems with the queues. I realize this doesn't help our non-US friends, but this is why many Americans (read: business travelers) don't mind a US connection. Heading outbound from the US, customs isn't an issue anyway.

The more lax borders/airport security within Europe do make it easy to travel between most countries (I love connecting at AMS). However, with recent events I wouldn't be surprised to see that change in the not too distant future.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
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jnev3289
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:20 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
jnev3289 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:

MKE has direct train connection to Downtown Chicago. The successful secondary airports like OAK, PVD, FLL always have excellent ground (public?) transportation options to their targeted region. ONT has none of that. The Europeans are not really interested in having to rent a car to get to LA - by the time you add the car rental cost, gas, and the cost of parking in LA any airfare savings has evaporated..

You savings have disappeared, I say the savings paid for my rental car and the awesome convenience it allows me


You have a drivers license and extensive experience driving in the US. Many Europeans do not. Hell, I would pay EXTRA money to not have to drive in LA traffic or attempt to park there...

Public transportation in the US is not all that great, I guess I can't know because I'm not European, but I would think renting a car would be preferred when visiting the US. Driving in a foreign country isn't really that intimidating. My 20 yr old brother drove our rental in Dubai for a week, no questions asked
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:42 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Most up to date passenger numbers (2011 brookings institute data)

London:

(2011 passenger total)
Indianapolis- 30,732
Nashville- 27,456
Columbus- 24,968
St Louis- 28,417
Cleveland- 24,532
Milwaukee- 6,048

Frankfurt:
Indianapolis- 13,932
Nashville- 9,984
Columbus- 7,603
St Louis- 16,092
Cleveland- 11,429
Milwaukee- 3,691

Paris:
Indianapolis- 10,785
Nashville- 8,989
Columbus- 8,661
St Louis- 13,391
Cleveland- 12,168
Milwaukee- 2,934

Rome:
Indianapolis- 7,546
Nashville- 6,195
Columbus- 6,975
St Louis- 11,570
Cleveland- 11,666
Milwaukee- 2,330

Total: (St.Louis, 69,470) (Indianapolis, 62,995)(Cleveland, 59,795)(Nashville, 52,624)(Columbus, 48,207)(Milwaukee, 15,003)

Next largest markets from each of the cities

Indianapolis-(Manchester,6,375),(Delhi,5,663),(Amsterdam,5,492),(Zurich,5,082),(Munich,4,963)
Nashville-(Dublin,4,870)(Cairo,4,331)(Amsterdam,4,251)(Munich,4,068)(Manchester,3,715)
St.louis-(Amsterdam,7,314)(Tel Aviv,7,214)(Dublin,7,037)(Madrid,5,813)(Munich,5,564)
Cleveland-(Tel Aviv,9,148)(Amsterdam,7,209)(Delhi,5,866)(Dublin,5,306,)(Brussels,5,057)
Columbus-(Amsterdam,5,991)(Hyderabad,5,015)(Mumbai,4,604)(Delhi,4,391)(Barcelona,3,928)



Based on the data you provided it looks like IND supports about 80 pax daily in O&D traffic year round on London flights. That is not enough to support daily flights. If I were at BA I would allocate a 788 on a 1 3 5 weekly schedule from IND to LHR and use the same plane to PIT on a 2 4 6 7 schedule.

I would think this would be a good utilization of a aircraft and open up two new markets for BA.
The A350 really sucks. :)
 
Jshank83
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:51 pm

N383SW wrote:
Flighty wrote:
It's understandable you might prefer a London flight, but I would stand up for a KEF flight being useful. It is a little hard to articulate why, but I think having a single airline connection that puts you down in Europe, then a short hop to various points in Europe, is superior to what you get from USA carriers. Maybe this that is just an emotional argument. You could also use AA or Delta and get single-airline 1-stop connections to most popular Europe stations from St Louis. I would prefer Icelandair as a better way to arrive home, and a fun way to arrive in Europe, without the hassle of an ATL or PHL connection, or a JFK connection. None of which are super appealing... JMO...


I've kind of thought that FI would do pretty well in STL. The 757 has the range for STL-KEF and would probably be the right size plane for it. Their fares seem reasonable and they seem more apt to do non daily and seasonal. If they could get an agreement with WN for connections that would be gravy. LH to FRA seems really nice but do they have an airplane that is "small" enough to test the demand? TW didn't even have consistent service STL-FRA with all of the connections over STL. Does BA want to use a valuable LHR slot for STL? Do they have enough 788's to attempt it? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see BA, LH, or even AF/KL but I just feel that they have bigger fish to fry. I'd love to see something happen and be successful, for sure!


For me the STL argument with KEF layovers is: I am fine with them if they are in addition to someone who flies to a better connecting point. If them starting service at the airport means that STL doesn't get BA or someone else like that then I don't want them. I want someone who is going to give me one less layover. A layover at KEF doesn't do that. If that means I have to wait a couple more years then that is fine also. I would be fine with Condor because they have decent partner connection options and Frankfurt itself would be fun to visit.

I agree with the LH STL to FRA point. I am not sure they have the right planes to do it from STL.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:24 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:


Based on the data you provided it looks like IND supports about 80 pax daily in O&D traffic year round on London flights. That is not enough to support daily flights. If I were at BA I would allocate a 788 on a 1 3 5 weekly schedule from IND to LHR and use the same plane to PIT on a 2 4 6 7 schedule.

I would think this would be a good utilization of a aircraft and open up two new markets for BA.


Seems that would be the right utilization for IND, the director of IND said earlier this year that meetings were scheduled this year with multiple airlines, including British Airways and United, aimed at securing a nonstop to either London or Frankfurt. He also said in an interview earlier this year that officials have been meeting with UA and BA since at least 2015 so it is only a matter of time.
ORD & IND

AA & DL
 
ASQ400
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Re: Which second-tier US cities can support Trans-Atlantic Flights?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:37 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
SMF, GEG, BOI and ABQ come to mind.


GEG and BOI seem like stretches, SMF might be able to serve as a secondary airport for the bay area.

Doubtful. The LCCs that don't want to get choked in SFO go to OAK and SJC, which are much closer to the population centers than SMF is. Public transport between Sacramento and the Bay Area is pathetic, and the roads have a way of filling up with cars, while OAK is a BART ride away from SF and Oakland.
I do think SMF could sustain a couple of 787 routes to Europe (or to Japan, but that's not the topic), but not as a secondary to the Bay Area.
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