The local paper is reporting that ONT in partnership with Dynamic are doing test fights from July to late August to Nanchang as proof concept for the Chinese carriers that ONT is a viable alternative for LAX. Wish ONT the best of luck with this project.

http://www.dailybulletin.com/business/2 ... ted-at-ont

Ontario has been up to great things since the ownership shifted away from LAWA. The city has really worked to try to revitalize the airport and improve it after the recession. There are also new plans for more restaurants and amenities. I visited it recently after ownership switched and I was impressed by the small changes that have happened so far. A new land side coffee kiosk in Terminal 4, the terminals were playing soft music, and they had even stepped up advertising for local businesses in the Inland Empire in the terminal. They even report passenger traffic year over year is up.

Spoke with someone who works there and they were expecting something like this to happen soon. This had been in the works for a bit. They already managed to get AA to offer a seasonal ORD flight for the summer. They're also hoping they can get ATL, a full ORD service, and B6 and HA service back. Kudos ONT!

This is Dynamic just operating a few of their China-LA charter series flights into ONT in return for incentive $$$

jonair8 wrote:

Ontario has been up to great things since the ownership shifted away from LAWA. The city has really worked to try to revitalize the airport and improve it after the recession.

Don't worry the honeymoon will end one day. The reality of having to cough up hundreds of millions to run the place will take hold.
They are already looking at sale of property to help fund things.

jonair8 wrote:

They even report passenger traffic year over year is up.

I would hope so. Every airport in Socal is off to strong YoY start this year.

LGB +54% (expects to set all time enplanement record in 2017)
BUR +11.2%
LAX +5.7%
PSP +4.4%
SNA +2.4%

As someone who grew up in socal I will never understand the appeal of PSP to the northern folks. Send me to a beach to warm up fam.

Many,many casino's are closer to ONT- theres' probably 6 between there and the other end of Coachella Valley alone. This will appeal to the Chinese

BobbyPSP wrote:

Many,many casino's are closer to ONT- theres' probably 6 between there and the other end of Coachella Valley alone. This will appeal to the Chinese

ONT also closer to the San Gabriel Valley which has a large Asian population.

AAlaxfan wrote:

BobbyPSP wrote:

Many,many casino's are closer to ONT- theres' probably 6 between there and the other end of Coachella Valley alone. This will appeal to the Chinese

ONT also closer to the San Gabriel Valley which has a large Asian population.

Bingo! That's why I've wondered for years why wasn't ONT catering to this community since there just next door.

many321 wrote:

AAlaxfan wrote:

BobbyPSP wrote:

Many,many casino's are closer to ONT- theres' probably 6 between there and the other end of Coachella Valley alone. This will appeal to the Chinese

ONT also closer to the San Gabriel Valley which has a large Asian population.

Bingo! That's why I've wondered for years why wasn't ONT catering to this community since there just next door.

Because a flight of that length can't survive solely on VFR traffic. While ONT is closer to the San Gabriel Valley, the high yield pax seems to prefer LAX.

B747forever wrote:

many321 wrote:

AAlaxfan wrote:

ONT also closer to the San Gabriel Valley which has a large Asian population.

Bingo! That's why I've wondered for years why wasn't ONT catering to this community since there just next door.

Because a flight of that length can't survive solely on VFR traffic. While ONT is closer to the San Gabriel Valley, the high yield pax seems to prefer LAX.

Use the VFR to the SGV to fill the back, and the $ to PSP to fill the front. Give it decent schedules and you've got a viable option to LAX.

- After a quick search it seems like a few months ago Curt Hagman visited Taoyuan among other cities and was talking to EVA Air and China Airlines among other airlines for China service... Is that serious?
- And last years he claimed there's a 150 flights/day capacity restriction for flights between capital cities of both countries including LAX and other major airports... But reading the latest amendment isn't the restriction applied only to Chinese major airports? Are US major airports being affected too? And is the restriction about cities or about airports, and if the restriction do really exists then will ONT get covered in it?

No city restrictions on the US end, only China end.

A few years back EVA Cargo was offered good terms to move some of its LAX freighter flights to ONT, but carrier ultimately decided to stick with LAX since virtually entire LA region freight forwarder community is near LAX and Ports of LA/LB.

32andBelow wrote:

As someone who grew up in socal I will never understand the appeal of PSP to the northern folks. Send me to a beach to warm up fam.

That's the beauty of it. We each can decide for ourselves. Your preference is the beach. For others, perhaps not. I happen to love PSP. And, I like beach locales, too. They are both beautiful in uniquely different ways. Which one I go to depends on what I'm looking for and in need of. Sometimes, I've done both in a single trip. It isn't that difficult to get to the coast from PSP or vice versa.

Cheers,

AAflyguy

c933103 wrote:

- After a quick search it seems like a few months ago Curt Hagman visited Taoyuan among other cities and was talking to EVA Air and China Airlines among other airlines for China service... Is that serious?

Here's a report from last year after the transfer of ownership of Hagman being serious of bringing Air Service to ONT.

http://www.pe.com/2016/11/18/ont-offici ... -airlines/

They just raised the long term lot from $9.00 per day to $13.00 per day. Got to pay for these new things some how.

wnflyguy wrote:

ONT been offering Norwegian almost everything to make ONT there SoCal gateway.
But they have yet to take the Deal.
It's a hard sell for international airlines to bypass LAX for ONT.
Wish them luck with the China trial.
Flyguy

Yes good luck. As European tourist I would be shocked if I landed in ONT, being hours away from the sites to be visited in Los Angeles.

I once looked at ground transportation options, and there is really no way to get to even downtown Los Angeles from ONT. No direct bus, no rail, and the online taxi fare estimator was well over $100 each way!

ONT is not, and will not be a LAX replacement. It neither has the demographics nor geography for it.

ONT like BUR, LGB, SNA is a community airport that serves a specific corner of the broader LA metro area.

Where ONT could do well is with freight. If the pre-recession proposal for large intermodal transportation hub concept (air/rail/truck and warehouses) is ever developed it could attract additional freighters especially since Inland Empire is becoming a popular area for companies to establish distribution centers.

BobbyPSP wrote:

Many,many casino's are closer to ONT- theres' probably 6 between there and the other end of Coachella Valley alone. This will appeal to the Chinese

That and it will be more convenient to come pop out a new citizen.

LAXintl wrote:

ONT is not, and will not be a LAX replacement. It neither has the demographics nor geography for it.

ONT like BUR, LGB, SNA is a community airport that serves a specific corner of the broader LA metro area.

What ONT does well in, is catering to the Inland Empire. They cater well to people who live around that area in SoCal. In reality, I'm not sure if people completely realize this, but the Inland Empire and LA are two different regions of SoCal, both in demographics and even culture. Same goes for how SJC now caters mainly toward the Silicon Valley while SFO caters mainly toward the actual San Francisco area. Sure for someone who doesn't want to have to deal with the stress, traffic, and congestion of LAX would opt for an airport like ONT, SNA, BUR, or even LGB because they see it as a reliever. I don't think many people from outside of SoCal know that or understand that from a visitor's perspective. Even the San Fernando Valley where BUR is and Orange County are different regions than the actual area of LA.

I hope ONT has a lot more success in serving the Inland Empire at the very least. It is the main gripe of people living in the area because they have to drive 2 hours for a nonstop flight to the east coast. The market is small since it isn't actually LA, and it's different, but one does exist. The Inland Empire of today is not the same as the Inland Empire of 5 years ago.

BobbyPSP wrote:

Many,many casino's are closer to ONT- theres' probably 6 between there and the other end of Coachella Valley alone. This will appeal to the Chinese

They aren't really destination casinos. If you are going to fly from china to gamble you'll probably fly 15 more minutes to Vegas

Is ONT marketing itself as a gateway to Palm Springs?

32andBelow wrote:

BobbyPSP wrote:

Many,many casino's are closer to ONT- theres' probably 6 between there and the other end of Coachella Valley alone. This will appeal to the Chinese

They aren't really destination casinos. If you are going to fly from china to gamble you'll probably fly 15 more minutes to Vegas

Not sure about Hong Kong and Macau politically, but I would have thought Manila would be nearer and probably cheaper. Current events can't be helping marketing, though.

mercure1 wrote:

wnflyguy wrote:

ONT been offering Norwegian almost everything to make ONT there SoCal gateway.
But they have yet to take the Deal.
It's a hard sell for international airlines to bypass LAX for ONT.
Wish them luck with the China trial.
Flyguy

Yes good luck. As European tourist I would be shocked if I landed in ONT, being hours away from the sites to be visited in Los Angeles.

I once looked at ground transportation options, and there is really no way to get to even downtown Los Angeles from ONT. No direct bus, no rail, and the online taxi fare estimator was well over $100 each way!

If you are a tourist visiting LA you are probably staying in the Anaheim area and doing all your site seeing from there. ONT is 45 minutes from there. LAX 1.5 hours. Shuttle vans, rental cars and buses are available to get you there.
Location has not and never will be the problem for ONT. Pricing and scheduling of flights is. The SGV, NorthOC and IE customer base worked fine for them when the airlines gave it the attention.

AAlaxfan wrote:

If you are a tourist visiting LA you are probably staying in the Anaheim area and doing all your site seeing from there. ONT is 45 minutes from there. LAX 1.5 hours. Shuttle vans, rental cars and buses are available to get you there.
Location has not and never will be the problem for ONT. Pricing and scheduling of flights is. The SGV, NorthOC and IE customer base worked fine for them when the airlines gave it the attention.

Actually no - most popular areas to stay for European tourist are places like Santa Monica, Beverly Hills, West Los Angeles and maybe other area like Long Beach. Trips to Anaheim (Disneyland) is a side day trip, same with places like Universal Studios.
Bulk of tourism interest is around LA proper, not Anaheim. Staying in Anaheim would make very difficult long days driving back and forth to LA tourist sites.

While Disneyland is the most popular single location visited by tourist, according tor Tourism California, of the top-10 visited destinations in Los Angeles area for 2015, 8 are around LA proper, with only Disneyland and Long Beach a distance further.

1. Disneyland
2. Venice Beach
3. The Grove and Farmers Market
4. Rodeo Drive
5. Hollywood Walk of Fame
6. Sunset Strip
7. Downtown Santa Monica and Pier
8. Universal Studios and City Walk
9. Getty Center
10. Queen Mary and Long Beach shoreline

Ultimately, ONT serves a niche, but idea that its the ideal location for foreign inbound tourist for LA basin is completely ignoring the facts of where these tourist actually visit - most of which are only few miles from LAX

LAXintl wrote:

While Disneyland is the most popular single location visited by tourist, according tor Tourism California, of the top-10 visited destinations in Los Angeles area for 2015, 8 are around LA proper, with only Disneyland and Long Beach a distance further.

1. Disneyland
2. Venice Beach
3. The Grove and Farmers Market
4. Rodeo Drive
5. Hollywood Walk of Fame
6. Sunset Strip
7. Downtown Santa Monica and Pier
8. Universal Studios and City Walk
9. Getty Center
10. Queen Mary and Long Beach shoreline

Ultimately, ONT serves a niche, but idea that its the ideal location for foreign inbound tourist for LA basin is completely ignoring the facts of where these tourist actually visit - most of which are only few miles from LAX

. Here's a map for reference.


ONT (red circle on the upper right) is too out of the way to be seriously considered a viable alternative to LAX (red circle on the left) for all of the tourists who spend the vast majority of their time in the sites on your list.

IMO any Asian carrier attempting ONT will be in a difficult place because it would 1) be hard-pressed to attract LA's business traffic, 2) would have to rely on VFR/leisure traffic living/staying in SGV (purple box), and 3) match the rock-bottom fares to Asia out of LAX. It's this reliance on VFR/leisure traffic that puts ONT at a severe disadvantage, because chances are those price-sensitive customers would choose to drive the extra half hour to LAX for that $500 round-trip ticket to Asia, versus whatever it would cost out of ONT.

mercure1 wrote:

Yes good luck. As European tourist I would be shocked if I landed in ONT, being hours away from the sites to be visited in Los Angeles.

I once looked at ground transportation options, and there is really no way to get to even downtown Los Angeles from ONT. No direct bus, no rail, and the online taxi fare estimator was well over $100 each way!

Indeed there is no ground transportation... yet. I'm sure once the airlines come and the passenger volumes will be there such services will be set up. I mean, look at what happened at New York Stewart airport. An airport that's even more remote than Ontario. When Norwegian announced they would be flying there everyone thought they were nuts because it was so far away. But what happened? A bus service was set up between New York City and Stewart airport that matches the Norwegian flight schedule out of there. A similar thing can also be set up in Ontario.

wnflyguy wrote:

ONT been offering Norwegian almost everything to make ONT there SoCal gateway.
But they have yet to take the Deal.
It's a hard sell for international airlines to bypass LAX for ONT.
Wish them luck with the China trial.
Flyguy

I'm sure if the 737 had the range to make it to Ontario from Europe Norwegian would give it a chance, just like they did with Stewart. Unfortunately it doesn't and the 787 is too much of an aircraft for this airport.

jonair8 wrote:

Ontario has been up to great things since the ownership shifted away from LAWA. The city has really worked to try to revitalize the airport and improve it after the recession. There are also new plans for more restaurants and amenities. I visited it recently after ownership switched and I was impressed by the small changes that have happened so far. A new land side coffee kiosk in Terminal 4, the terminals were playing soft music, and they had even stepped up advertising for local businesses in the Inland Empire in the terminal. They even report passenger traffic year over year is up.

Spoke with someone who works there and they were expecting something like this to happen soon. This had been in the works for a bit. They already managed to get AA to offer a seasonal ORD flight for the summer. They're also hoping they can get ATL, a full ORD service, and B6 and HA service back. Kudos ONT!

Glad your excited. Airlines will start adding back some routes has time goes bye no matter who owns it. Really nothing special or that wouldn't of happened anyways has been seen. Now they get southwest to hub in ont like they use to then I'll be impressed.

I do like the idea of international charter using ont. tour groups flights would be better served using Ont.

32andBelow wrote:

BobbyPSP wrote:

Many,many casino's are closer to ONT- theres' probably 6 between there and the other end of Coachella Valley alone. This will appeal to the Chinese

They aren't really destination casinos. If you are going to fly from china to gamble you'll probably fly 15 more minutes to Vegas

Agree 100%

What will ever become of SBD? It's not far from ONT

grbauc wrote:

jonair8 wrote:

I do like the idea of international charter using ont. tour groups flights would be better served using Ont.

Yes, I have believe that you are right about this. Regularly scheduled service is really a pipe dream but hey who knows. I'm just glad to see the traffic pick up here slowly as it can sometimes get boring in the tower!

LAXintl, I have much respect towards you but your pure hatred towards ONT is completely ridiculous, you act as though it is personal. If LAX can get up to 80 million passengers a year there is NO reason whatsoever ONT cannot get to 8 to 10 million, it won't hurt your precious LAX. Yes I grew up at ONT since 1983 and have been working in the tower for the past 3 years so I'm sure I'm somewhat biased but I'm not naïve either, ONT NEVER could be an LAX, we don't have the land but there is no reason to keep it down.

FX1816/ONT ATCT

FX1816 wrote:

LAXintl, I have much respect towards you but your pure hatred towards ONT is completely ridiculous, you act as though it is personal. If LAX can get up to 80 million passengers a year there is NO reason whatsoever ONT cannot get to 8 to 10 million, it won't hurt your precious LAX. Yes I grew up at ONT since 1983 and have been working in the tower for the past 3 years so I'm sure I'm somewhat biased but I'm not naïve either, ONT NEVER could be an LAX, we don't have the land but there is no reason to keep it down.

No hate, I'm just a realist. I actually even have a business and have employed people at ONT since 2014.

At the end though, ONT is just another SoCal community airport like BUR, LGB or SNA.

Unfortunately ONT unlike the other airports must deal with the facts that it sits in an area that is economically disadvantaged and must deal with the traffic realities as result which includes weaker consumer demographics, and resultant lower travel propensity.

Frankly odds are ONT will always be challenged compared to other area airports as even with a uptick in the economy. Reality is the tide will likely raise other airports as they also enjoy improved conditions.

Now as I mentioned prior, ONT should be able to excel in the area of cargo, especially as the IE grows in importance as a regional distribution hub for growing number of enterprises and as other logistics modes grow as well in the region.

LAXintl wrote:

Now as I mentioned prior, ONT should be able to excel in the area of cargo, especially as the IE grows in importance as a regional distribution hub for growing number of enterprises and as other logistics modes grow as well in the region.

I absolutely agree with you on this subject and that is what I have been telling others at the tower, that is where we will see real growth. I do believe though that there is no reason as to why ONT cannot and will not at least make it back to 5-7 million passengers a year.

FX1816

I hear where you guys are coming from, but there is a market. The LA basin including the Ontario area have a very large Asian population. I live in Palm Springs 15 years recently as well as working at PSP. There are a few very large casino/hotels that offer everything for a low/moderate budget. ONT itself a very logical place to meet up. A lot take coach day trips. Vegas is very expensive but I feel is that a lot of the VFR stay with family etc. Very easy to hop on the 15 to Vegas with lots of traffic though.

We do have Asian airlines at LAS so there is a market for casinos. Obviously not talking daily flights at ONT but there is a market for those that cant afford a long vegas stay. Imagine something like what Norwegian does, flights to 3 cities from one "base" though not daily on many many of them. So an Asian LCC carrier could say fly TPE - OAK, ONT & SEA for a total of 7 frequencies between the 3 cities.
ONT is perfect for a large part of the VFR,


A

BobbyPSP wrote:

I hear where you guys are coming from, but there is a market. The LA basin including the Ontario area have a very large Asian population. I live in Palm Springs 15 years recently as well as working at PSP. There are a few very large casino/hotels that offer everything for a low/moderate budget. ONT itself a very logical place to meet up. A lot take coach day trips. Vegas is very expensive but I feel is that a lot of the VFR stay with family etc. Very easy to hop on the 15 to Vegas with lots of traffic though.

We do have Asian airlines at LAS so there is a market for casinos. Obviously not talking daily flights at ONT but there is a market for those that cant afford a long vegas stay. Imagine something like what Norwegian does, flights to 3 cities from one "base" though not daily on many many of them. So an Asian LCC carrier could say fly TPE - OAK, ONT & SEA for a total of 7 frequencies between the 3 cities.
ONT is perfect for a large part of the VFR,


A

I think the point is that, if an Asian tourist just simply want a casino to gamble, there are already numerous area within Asia that they can pick from. Macau/Russia/Korea/Mongolia/Singapore/Philippines/Northern Mariana, and then Japan/Vietnam are opening up casino industry too, so whomever flying this far to the US for gambling nowadays must be looking for something uniquely offered in the US, for example the entire enviroment provided in the Las Vegas. Those tourists willing to fly tjhis far to the US for gambling are unlikely to be satisified by those facilities available near ONT.

c933103 wrote:

. Those tourists willing to fly tjhis far to the US for gambling are unlikely to be satisified by those facilities available near ONT.

You should probably tell that to the various buses I see at some of the local casinos along with the outlet malls between ONT and LAS. I know this from driving to and from ONT Tower 6 days a week that there are MANY buses with Asian tourists going up and down the Cajon Pass (Interstate 15) daily.

Any updates on these charters? I hear that the aircraft stops in ANC for customs and refueling?

cyberual wrote:

Any updates on these charters? I hear that the aircraft stops in ANC for customs and refueling?

Consider it is Dynamic airlines and they only have 767 I think they have to.

Here's an article that came out a few days back on the local newspaper. It's not an update on Dynamic's charter service. However, of Taiwanese officials including China Airlines visiting ONT.

http://www.dailybulletin.com/business/2 ... -this-week

Wish them success. More variety and choice in LA outside of LAX would be welcome.

The best chance of ONT landing an Asian airline is with CI and BR. There is open sky between Taiwan and US and TPE is not slot restricted. There is enough O&D between ONT adjacent area and TPE to fill a daily flight. So either airlines can start flight tomorrow as long as ONT is willing to pony up the money to subsidize the route. CI in particular is probably ripe for something like this because it is more reliant on O&D VFR and they have A350 to make TPE-ONT work - basically, for the right price, I think they will replace one of the daily LAX 77W to ONT A350. BR's business model includes more transit traffic from southeast Asia with onward connection at LAX so it probably doesn't want to mess with the success they've had at LAX.

Landing Chinese airlines will be tough. Realistically, ONT can only work to the Big 3 tier one airports but all those routes/slots are currently used and I don't see any Chinese airlines giving up more lucrative and prestigious destinations (i.e. PEK/PVG/CAN to SFO/LAX/JFK/ORD/IAH/SEA etc) to service lowly ONT. Secondary Chinese cities to ONT won't work unless there is massive subsidies on both sides. Maybe ONT should think about teaming up with a couple of airports in China and offer packaged incentives on both sides?

Today is the first flight of 12 planned flights over 6 weeks. Last service August 30th.

Nanchang - Anchorage - Ontario.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DYA ... /ZSCN/PANC

ONT barely has service east of the Mississippi. Scheduled service to China is a stretch, even with incentives.

FX1816 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

. Those tourists willing to fly tjhis far to the US for gambling are unlikely to be satisified by those facilities available near ONT.

You should probably tell that to the various buses I see at some of the local casinos along with the outlet malls between ONT and LAS. I know this from driving to and from ONT Tower 6 days a week that there are MANY buses with Asian tourists going up and down the Cajon Pass (Interstate 15) daily.

These are not Asian tourist groups. They are complimentary buses that run from predominately Asian neighborhoods in LA, mainly Korea Town, and shuttle gambling-loving Asians, mostly elderly, to/from the desert casinos.

It is quite fascinating:

http://www.latimes.com/local/california ... story.html

[/quote} Yes good luck. As European tourist I would be shocked if I landed in ONT, being hours away from the sites to be visited in Los Angeles.

I once looked at ground transportation options, and there is really no way to get to even downtown Los Angeles from ONT. No direct bus, no rail, and the online taxi fare estimator was well over $100 each way![/quote]

There is a Metrolink station just southeast of the airport (10348 Mission Blvd, Ontario, CA) that will take you to downtown Union Station for a cost of $10.75 one way.

A few weeks ago, other NYC planespotters and I had wondered why two of the 763s had ferried out of JFK due west...this was why (N254MY in hybrid AeroLap/Dynamic livery is doing these flights, and one was to Saipan, N740JM in full Dynamic livery). N793JM---the other ex-Qantas/BA B763 owned by Jet Midwest (co-owner of Dynamic; KMW Leasing is its other co-owner) was brought out of storage to be a hot spare for N796JM, the only one at JFK still. Their 762s are likely retired.